I weighed the set I bought today with a cheepy fish scale. Each one comes in at a whopping 6 pounds. It would be nice if someone posted the weight of a Stock Fiero front caliper and the aluminum 1le capliper.
The new set, ready for powdercoating, sitting with a set of speedbleeders.
Good Luck guys
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06:19 PM
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Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Rather than somebody else weighing their calipers for a comparison, it would be much better for comparison if you weigh your stock calipers when you remove them. I say this because you used an inaccurate scale, but at least if you use the same scale for both it will give an idea of which is lighter and by what magnitude.
Thanks for thinking about it, good info for those worried about unsprung weight.
Bryce 88 GT
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08:13 PM
Bobert Member
Posts: 371 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Jan 2002
Rather than somebody else weighing their calipers for a comparison, it would be much better for comparison if you weigh your stock calipers when you remove them. I say this because you used an inaccurate scale, but at least if you use the same scale for both it will give an idea of which is lighter and by what magnitude.
Thanks for thinking about it, good info for those worried about unsprung weight.
Bryce 88 GT
We are doing another one of those swaps this week at the shop. I'm going to weigh all the parts tomorrow on my shipping scale.
I would submit however, that if one was to consider all the weight of all the parts removed against the sum of the parts installed we might find that it is pretty much a wash on the weight difference.
Archie
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09:00 PM
David Bartlett Member
Posts: 1090 From: Ancaster, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
Just to add to the discussion I mailed out a set of adapter brackets, spacers and e-brake cable holders today and they weighed in at 7.4lbs(that included the box)
I also agree with Archie about all the different parts canceling one another out. If you are really that concerned about the weight I would make the adapter brackets out of titanium or Fortal, this would help bring the weight down. I found that after installing the brakes the car felt more sure footed at speed, so a little more weight didn't bother me. Trust me once you get them installed you won't care about the weight
Just to add to the discussion I mailed out a set of adapter brackets, spacers and e-brake cable holders today and they weighed in at 7.4lbs(that included the box)
And I bet that box had my name written all over it
Just to add to this discussion I am going with a set of the 16" Celica GTS rims and was curious how they compared in weight to the stock 14" rims that I am taking off.
The Celica rims with tires turned out to be 1.5 pounds heavier than the 14" rims with tires. I would bet that they are very similar in weight to the 15" lace rims and when I have a chance I will compare them also.
I would think that the 1.5 pounds might make a difference but that will probably be offset by the fact that I am actually going to be able to get some good performance tires in the 16" size.
------------------
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12:53 AM
Feb 8th, 2003
David Bartlett Member
Posts: 1090 From: Ancaster, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
Stock fiero rotor- 11.35lbs Modified and lightened fiero rotor- 5.8lbs (both weights are with wheel studs installed and both bearing races installed)
LaBaron rotor- 13.0lbs
Front adapter bracket + spacers- 1.5lbs
Rear adapter bracket- 1.4lbs
Now we need the weight of the stock fiero caliper and stock caliper brackets. I don't have these parts laying around but will weigh them later this week.
FieroGT87 - It gets worse actually. You have to add the 5.8 lbs. mentioned above for the machined front rotors to the 11.25" set-up because you'll keep those. Then there's the steering stop, which is optional. So you can either add nothing, or subtract it from the 11.25" set-up. Kind of looks like an almost 8.5 lb. increase. Good thread btw.
Later, Dave
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10:53 PM
FieroGT87 Member
Posts: 3195 From: St. Louis, Mo, USA Registered: Jul 2001
Yep I forgot that hub #, ouch. O-well I still think it's worth it, short of spending a couple of thousand for light wieght 4 piston brakes and rotors.
Didn't someone drill out their hubs to lighten them more? Can't find that thread.
Dang, that thread WAS hard to find! I couldn't remember who did it either, you got the best of my curiosity. It was only worth a pound per hub, which wouldn't be worth the cost if you don't have your own lathe/drill. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/027210.html
The 5.8 lbs I listed above was the weight of one of my lightened hubs I sell, so add a pound to that weight if you just turn off the rotor. Most of the weight that is added is in the LaBaron rotor itself, really no way to loose weight there.(I could cross drill or slot them, I'll do it somebody wants to try them)
do the la-B rotors need to be that thick heavy??? start with a used/junkyard rotor and turn it down to minimum safe thickness???? can anyone make a alloy hub???????? some cars use them like audies then you could just added common bearings and solve the no 88 frontt hub thing tooo. or kill two birds with stone stone, and loose weight tooo!!!!
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
Trust me once you get them installed you won't care about the weight
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would never use stock brakes again. People get so concerned with the weight of the brakes , but still manage to put tons of stereo equipment into the car and heavy aftermarket wheels. Not taking a shot at anyone. But if you have big chrome wheels and 3 amps in the car along with god knows what else , why take the racer approach now?
I have a setup similar to Sluppys with drilled hubs (lightened) anda few other little tricks , I am weight concious. But after swapping from stock Fiero brakes to the lebaron setup I dropped 2 secs around shannonville, My times with street tires were better than my old times with R1 tires.. The lebaron setup is better 10 fold without 1Le calipers. I have a set of Wilwood 4 pistons sitting on the bench and haven't bothered to mock them up , there is no need to. The car brakes on par with the best of the best.
if you just wanna play wannabe then just go with the regular setup. You can't really judge how well stock brakes compare to the lebaron setup unless you ride in a car with lebaron brakes , or atleast try them!
JM
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03:53 PM
L.I. Fieros Member
Posts: 575 From: Long Island, N.Y. Registered: Feb 2000
Slammed - (or anyone else who drives this set-up hard) - Did you notice any loss in cornering capability after you added all this unsprung weight? What about high speed stability? I wonder if it really has any negative effects on a Fiero. I would think that high speed stability would actually be better. For most of us this means the most common use of our cars, highway driving. If someone has any g-force measurements before/after I would love to hear them. I mean, we all know that V8's in Fieros kill handling, yet there are some on this board pulling over 1-g. Please, I don't mean that to get us off track, I'm just wondering what the "real world" effect (theory aside) of this unsprung weight is on a Fiero. I mean we know that the braking capabilities are greatly improved, but what is the real effect on handling. Hopefully I will soon know.
Later, Dave
P.S. Also remember that Pontiac added a bunch of weight (13 or so lbs.???) to each corner of the actual INDY Pace Car which ran around Indianapolis at over 140mph. Makes me wonder....
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10:03 PM
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naskie18 Member
Posts: 6258 From: Commerce Twp, MI, USA Registered: Jun 2002
They're camaro calipers, are you using camaro rotrs as well? If not, what rotors are you using? What else have you changed besides rotors and calipers? Thansk for the info!
Slammed - (or anyone else who drives this set-up hard) - Did you notice any loss in cornering capability after you added all this unsprung weight? What about high speed stability? I wonder if it really has any negative effects on a Fiero. I would think that high speed stability would actually be better. For most of us this means the most common use of our cars, highway driving. If someone has any g-force measurements before/after I would love to hear them. I mean, we all know that V8's in Fieros kill handling, yet there are some on this board pulling over 1-g. Please, I don't mean that to get us off track, I'm just wondering what the "real world" effect (theory aside) of this unsprung weight is on a Fiero. I mean we know that the braking capabilities are greatly improved, but what is the real effect on handling. Hopefully I will soon know.
Later, Dave
P.S. Also remember that Pontiac added a bunch of weight (13 or so lbs.???) to each corner of the actual INDY Pace Car which ran around Indianapolis at over 140mph. Makes me wonder....
One of the things that really gets me about the forum in general is all the experts who have NEVER experienced what they are preaching about.
As for loss of cornering ability..none ..not a thing. The weight increase is minimal , I never even saw a loss in performance (acceleration) as for high speed stability ..IT"S BETTER.. Depending on how you set them up fiero's can be twitchy at high speeds. I have taken my car into triple digits many times (more than I could count) with the new brakes the car feels as though it's planted at higher speeds, something that is hard to say with ANY stock Fiero. Other than vastly increased braking ability the main thing I noticed was the stability at high speeds. It feels more like a vette and less like a chevette. I don't get to drive my car a lot , but when I do it's usually on the track or on long trips where triple digit speeds are often seen. It's hard to explain ..the car just feels much more solid at speed.
Of course were going to get the know it alls on here with their calculations as to weight increase vs. performance. These are the same guys who just read and regurgitate everything they get there hands on with no real world experience. There also the same guys with cars in the garage in 10 million peices who fatisize about beating Mclarens.
So in retrospect...
Once you get thebrakes , you will agree that it is just what the car needed. Be it a 2M4 or a 400hp 383. You can drive with a much greater level of confidence.
The Fiero brake setup was designed for a light car (relativley) from around 2400lbs to 2800lbs. the stock brakes work fine for what they are. The lebaron rotors were desinged for a vehicle that weighed anywhere from 500 to 1000Lbs more. The camaro calipers were designed for a vehicle weighing 500Lbs more + as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the benefits.
Hope I didn't come off as too much of an A-hole. Just my 2 cents. Keep in mind my car wasl already pretty stable at speed, 255/45/17's out back , big bars and Koni's , after I did the brakes I noticed an increase..not a minor one , but a real difference in feel. BE it good or bad I think the ability to stop safley and predictably is worth a few LBS. The car will haul down from 100 mph into 30mph tight hair pins all day long , try that with your stock brakes... I'll be sure to send flowers to your widow
Thanks for all the posting guys. I started this post as more of a way to get to know the Zettner conversion. I wanted to know the differences in weight and I felt others needed to aswell. It wasn't in any way meant to put down the conversion, because as far as I'm concerned IS the best conversion and best value.
btw.. Keep the info coming.
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02:15 AM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6244 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Slammed is right, don't listen to the nay-sayers about the extra weight-blah blah blah, they are mis-informed.
I have a Fiero with GA brakes, and one with the 11.25" brakes, and if anything, those 2 cars feel more sure footed, both in corners, and at speed than the ones with stock brakes.
The 11.25" brakes are totally awesome, there's no comparing them to even the 88 brakes. Plus added wheel base isn't a bad thing either.
I have a TPI V8 in the one with the 11.25" brakes, and I feel the braking power is as impressive as the go power of that car! That car handles as well as my 88.
I took people for rides, and they are WOW, this thing moves, I'm like wait, see how this ole gurl stops!
Wear your seatbelt with the 11.25"s, wouldn't want any of you flying through the windshield.
------------------ 1988GT T-Tops, 5spd, Loaded
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04:00 AM
mrfixit58 Member
Posts: 3330 From: Seffner, Fl, USA Registered: Jul 99
When I originally started the coversion I had big ideas.
-Gotta get wilwood front 4 piston calipers -gotta get lighter front rotors with seperate rotor hats.
Then I drove the car... and found that none of it's needed. As I said before the car is overbraked. 4 piston front calipers would be nice..but I don't need to stop faster , the car already has hand of god stopping power and this is by no means an exotic setup.
I can remember threads a while back the 11.25" guys would comment on how well the brakes worked , then people with 13" wilwood setups and corvette setups would comment on how much better their systems are.,..with no real idea of how well the 11.25" setup works. I pay as much for 4 rotors as they do for one.Your always assured that even the most understocked parts store has pads for a camaro and rotors for a chrysler. Much like GM did withthe fiero itself , were using generic parts at a low cost to provide an outstanding package (for the money).
Will 13" disc brake car outperform an 11.25" setup? probably..but the extra 3-5 ft in stopping distance isn't worth the cost. Down the road 10-20 years you can be sure that there will still be 11.25" rotors and camaro calipers still available.
Nothing is worse than using 1 off parts , espically those that are wear items.
you also have to wonder about the forces generated by braking and their effect on 16 year old cast spindles.
Just a thought, perhaps the engineers of the group can lend their 2 cents on that one. Im not sure which part takes the most abuse , but you can bet that the front brakes have to stop nearly half of the vehicles weight. take into account weight transfer from the rear of the car to the front and that number may very well be more than half.
JM
[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 02-10-2003).]
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09:27 AM
Feb 11th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
When I originally started the coversion I had big ideas.
-Gotta get wilwood front 4 piston calipers -gotta get lighter front rotors with seperate rotor hats.
Then I drove the car... and found that none of it's needed. As I said before the car is overbraked. 4 piston front calipers would be nice..but I don't need to stop faster , the car already has hand of god stopping power and this is by no means an exotic setup.
I can remember threads a while back the 11.25" guys would comment on how well the brakes worked , then people with 13" wilwood setups and corvette setups would comment on how much better their systems are.,..with no real idea of how well the 11.25" setup works. I pay as much for 4 rotors as they do for one.Your always assured that even the most understocked parts store has pads for a camaro and rotors for a chrysler. Much like GM did withthe fiero itself , were using generic parts at a low cost to provide an outstanding package (for the money).
Will 13" disc brake car outperform an 11.25" setup? probably..but the extra 3-5 ft in stopping distance isn't worth the cost. Down the road 10-20 years you can be sure that there will still be 11.25" rotors and camaro calipers still available.
Nothing is worse than using 1 off parts , espically those that are wear items.
you also have to wonder about the forces generated by braking and their effect on 16 year old cast spindles.
Just a thought, perhaps the engineers of the group can lend their 2 cents on that one. Im not sure which part takes the most abuse , but you can bet that the front brakes have to stop nearly half of the vehicles weight. take into account weight transfer from the rear of the car to the front and that number may very well be more than half.
JM
[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 02-10-2003).]
During hard braking, especially with the stock suspension, the front brakes need to do much more than half of the braking (thus the bias/proportioning valve). With racing setups, the goal is to balance the braking with the available tread width and tire sizes for the front/rear, but usually even then the fronts do much more work. A very basic example of this idea is that many of the people who have done brake upgrades and have lowered cars with stiffer springs have removed the spring from their proportioning valve (giving equal pressure at all four corners) and prefer that over the stock setup because it optimizes the breaks for their changes.
While I agree that making custom parts is not ideal compared to something that can be bought at the local Autozone, I won't agree that there is "nothing worse than using one-off parts." Seriously...some of the most impressive features on some show cars are ONE-OFF.
I know you're pushing the whole experience/testimonials/whatever works angle, but you're coming off kinda like a jerk (or A-hole, as you put it). I also know you get very preturbed with the amount of people that don't have a damn clue what's going on...but please give SOME people credit, or at least recognize there are some who know what they're doing.
I only ask for this little respect because I am slightly offended at the "you're retarded if you get 13" brakes"...as you've already guessed, I'm considering the big-ass brakes. Surely I can get similar performance cheaper, but that's not my goal. Allow me to explain some of the high points of the bigger brakes in self defense:
1. For my daily driver, I like it lowered with 17" wheels. I hate brakes that don't fill the wheels (like the stockers), and 13" of brakes looks great no matter how they perform.
2. I like to tinker. I want to design a 13" setup just because I can, and not because it's easy to get the adapter pattern of the net and the info is readily available.
3. Of course you can get many sizes of wilwood rotors like this, but I plan on using their heavy duty rotors with curved veins for better cooling properties and better ruggedness. This way I can use a lower heat pad that will work for daily driving and still have enough cooling capacity to race with them on occasion.
4. I can actually design a 13" setup that will be the same or LIGHTER than the stock brakes, although the moment of intertia will be the same or larger. Luckily, the moment of inertia problem will be solved with a Northstar for accel. and the better brake leverage for decel.
5. Not many people will notice you've got a bigger GM caliper and rotor, but many people will notice a wilwood 4 pot and huge rotor. I don't care about people thinking I'm cool, but I do appreciate being recognized for doing the design work myself...after all, isn't that what being an engineer is about?
6. I plan on getting some Held spindles, so the old spindle isn't an issue with me. Did I already say because I can?
SO, now we both got to throw in our change Jonathan, but mine was more like a quarter and a nickel. Thanks for hearing me out, and maybe even considering giving people that don't share your frame of mind a smidge of respect.
Oh yeah, this setup isn't even started yet, but I will be doing it, no doubts about that. Also, my (in progress) 88 race car will use normal sized rotors for many reasons (lighter car, smaller wheels, lower moment of inertia, cheaper, etc.)...so don't put me in the dumbass crowd, I know the whole side of the story.
------------------ Bryce *edited typo*
[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 02-11-2003).]
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01:54 AM
Mar 26th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
I certianly didn't mean any dis respect , i think your one of the most valuable forum members and I always enjoy reading your threads.
the route of my disgruntled posts has been from people whom have little expericnce with the 11.25 setup , but decide that they need to critisize it without knowing the real factors. Most times I find that it's because they have either bought a high dolalr setup and need to feel better than the cheapies who have gone the 11.25" route. It's much like the guys who buy the tubular front ends and think that because they ponied up the big dollars ,the car is on par with anything ont he road and surely a stock based setup couldn't compete. This couldn't be farther from the truth.
I am one for function over shiney look at me parts. Could you design a system that works better than the 11.25? Absolutley, any weight saved makes for a better setup. This is all determined by the purpose of your vehcile. I am a track/ Autocross monkey. My money is best spent on sticky tires. hence I went with the 11.25"s It wasn't cheap , but bang for the buck it's hard to beat.
I love to tinker , design and monkey as well. But this takes time and money to do. I like going with proven setups , then refining them. My big issue with 1 off setups that use expensive rotors and parts is that I am not building a show car I am building a purpose built car , if it should look good along the way so be it. but looks aren't my first priority.. function is.
You and I come from 2 different worlds really. I liek a good solid beater that performans, you like to perform , but you also wanna look good doingit. This is not to say I don't take great pride in my car ,b ut my priorities are a little different from your own. Certianly anyone can appreciate the work that goes into designing anything , the satisfaction from attaining a personal goal is hard to beat. But for my purposes the reward comes from setting the Fastest time of the day then driving home 2 hours and using the car on a daily Basis. I cme from that sort of backgroud though. get it running and performaning up to par ,t hen worry about the looks.
I find more joy in driving a car than I do polishing it , but can certianly see the reward in a fine crafted automobile.
Well , i guess thats it's . i appologize Bryce if you took any offense to my post. i certianly don't categorize you as a dumbass...far from it.
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT Northstar 86 SE autocrosser in progress SAVE THE SHAUN!!!
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12:28 PM
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mrfixit58 Member
Posts: 3330 From: Seffner, Fl, USA Registered: Jul 99
lots of good info on this thread; even if it has cooled off for a bit..... addresses one of the biggest weak spots on the car. I am in the process of adapting 12" 1LE rotors (that I just happened to have for a previous car project-'nuff said) to my fiero spindles. The spindles are in the shop now and they are figuring the best way to make this work. A big shop, well known with lots of racing experience, so not worried there. It is my safety so I am the final authority on how good a job they will do and it will be good. I WANTED to use the aluminum 2 piston caliper from the 88-92 1LE (the only yrs it was avail, I understand) and actually GETTING the calipers wasn't that hard; they are available. What ISN'T available is the special brackets that mount them to the stock caliper mounting holes on the spindle. You gotta see these calipers - there isn't a single mounting hole; they have to slide into this bracket and then a single pin thru the pads holds them in place "horizontally". They ARE lighter than the stock CI ones, but not that much. Subjective, I know, but it wasn't that much. I guessed 1-2 lbs each. I will see if I can get a pick. Anyway the brackets are basically NOT available. And one of my prime requirements is to have parts that would be serviceable in Armpit, Anywhere, so that did it for me. I am going to use my 1LE rotors with stock camaro calipers. Doing the Lebarons/Caddy swap on the rear this wknd (with luck). Fronts will be next week. By the way, the rear calipers with the 020 and 021 casting numbers can also be found on the Buick Riviera; 80-84. Exact ones. Interestingly my master cyl is NOT the same as the '94 (newer) C series; I got one and it was QUITE different..????? So I ordered an 85 and it looks like the ticket; same; big bore; identical outside. Great thread and lots of knowledge and ideas out there!!!!!
What master cylinder is requires for this brake system (11.25" Camaro calipers).
Ira
Hey Ira , you need to pick up a Master Cylinder for a " K " series ( Full Size ) , [NOT the S- 10] ,'92-'94 Chevy Blazer .
Auto Zone has them for around $30 bucks plus a $20 core charge .
There were three different Master Cylinders used for the '92 -'94 " K " series Chevy Blazers . The M/C that your looking for is for a 4 X 4 under 7200 lbs .
Part #'s .
Canadian Tire Company , Part # 13-3149-0 .
Auto Zone , Part # M2219 .
Hope this helps .
Galen Smith Red 85 Sport Coupe Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club Florida Fiero Council
Originally posted by mrfixit58: All this talk about weight raises the question... What do the 88 brakes weigh? They use a vented rotor. Are the 88 calipers aluminum?
Anybody?
Roy, the '88 calipers are two-piece, the piston body is aluminum and the pad frame which bolts to it is some kind of heavier, rust-resistant cast metal. I would assume this is because of aluminum's well-known brittleness and fracturing tendencies in high-stress applications like brakes. They are definitely lighter than the 1st gen calipers, I have held them both in my hands at different times and I would say it is at least a 2-3lb difference, but I am just guessing. I just threw away a destroyed '88 caliper last week, it's probably still in the trash and I can go recover it to put it on a scale for the hell of it.
... I just threw away a destroyed '88 caliper last week, it's probably still in the trash and I can go recover it to put it on a scale for the hell of it.
Dave
Dave,
That would be great.
Thanks again, Roy
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11:24 AM
Mighty Mouse Member
Posts: 129 From: Decatur, Illinois Registered: Oct 2002
5. Not many people will notice you've got a bigger GM caliper and rotor, but many people will notice a wilwood 4 pot and huge rotor. I don't care about people thinking I'm cool, but I do appreciate being recognized for doing the design work myself...after all, isn't that what being an engineer is about?
Nashco,
I agree that the Willwood calipers look great, and are definitely higher performance then just about anything EOM. However, I would NOT use these on a street car. Why you ask? No piston seals - this means that the piston is not protected in anyway from dirt and grime, not to mention brake dust. Unless you enjoy regular cleaning maintenance on your front calipers this is not the best option. High maintenance is ok for race applications (which is what Willwood components are built for), but that’s where they belong, not on the street. Now if you want big calipers and rotors for the front of your Fiero that are meant to be used on the street check these out: http://www.ultimategarage.com/bbfiero.html . These are the Porsche 911 “Big red” Brakes. You can even get ones that have “PONTIAC” machined into them.
Regards, Troy
[This message has been edited by Mighty Mouse (edited 05-01-2003).]
Archie
Good thread btw. 
