installing the ring gear back onto the carrier. Here we see some medium loc-tite action, followed by the 10 bolts being torqued down to 61 lb ft.
To shim the differential bearings you should leave the ring gear off. With new shims in hand take the transmission to someone locally that rebuilds differentials and have them select the correct shims. Ask your local Hot Rod shops who is doing rear axles in the area. They will know. You can buy shims from GM for this. You may have to buy a few sets of the shims they offer to get the correct ones you need or maybe the guy that does the shimming will have some. They are 62 mm I believe on the OD. The people that do this type of work determine the shim thickness and the correct "crush" by feel. They install everything and bolt that case together and turn the differential. They can tell by the rotating friction if the crush is correct.
[This message has been edited by Rodney (edited 04-03-2003).]
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07:58 AM
Rodney Member
Posts: 4715 From: Caledonia, WI USA Registered: Feb 2000
Correct crush is .003 inch to .004 inch. or 0.075 mm to 0.100 mm.
Or if you have ccess to at toolset, you just measure the required shim.
quote
Originally posted by DRH:
Will, Could you share the dimensions used for making the $700 tools required for shimming the bearings? What about selling it as a kit yourself? I'm sure there's quite a bit of room between what it cost to make and $700.
I don't have a print of it. Have you looked at the overhaul section of the shop manual? Just show the pictures to a decent machinist, explain the operation of the toolset, and he should be able to make you a set. Of course your transmission will be down longer...
I left the 1-2 bias srping out and installed a shorter spring in place of the 5-R bias spring. My shifter moves freely between the 1-2 and 3-4 gates, but still has the spring bias going into the 5-R gate. I like that better than the stock setup.
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12:54 PM
cire36 Member
Posts: 674 From: Rio Rancho, NM Registered: Feb 2002
I love this thread. Is this work that the average to above average shade tree mechanic can do his/her self? I have a Getreg that I bought from a yard and would like to have it gone through. I would love to do it myself, thay way I know what is going on with it incase anything happens.
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01:51 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
I love this thread. Is this work that the average to above average shade tree mechanic can do his/her self? I have a Getreg that I bought from a yard and would like to have it gone through. I would love to do it myself, thay way I know what is going on with it incase anything happens.
Providing you have access to a hydraulic press, then yes, this entire transmission can be rebuilt in the garage over the weekend by anyone. It is helpfull to have the factory manual for the transmission however
As far as the whole shim debauchery here - IT IS NOT THAT CRITICAL - It is BY FAR better to be on the loose side of 2-3 thousandths, rather than to have the bearings crushed 2-3 thousandths.
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04:09 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
I'm finally gearing up to get my Getrag parts and start rebuilding after many months spent pining over gmpartsdirect.com and the factory manual.
Eric, you said you were going to post part numbers...any info on that? gmpartsdirect.com has a new catalog that gives part numbers for everything (not for our getrag, but I referenced a Beretta getrag, same internals) that I was able to cross-reference with the part number you showed in the 1-2 blocker picture. I was hoping that rather than winging it with the Beretta part numbers and hoping for the best, you could post your numbers that are guaranteed correct for the Fiero.
Thanks for the info so far.
Oh, and Will (or anybody with Getrag rebuild tools), if you read this, I'd *really* appreciate seeing a picture of your tools to get a better idea of how you made them. I'm not lacking an imagination or the ability to create parts, just nice to see what works so I can save a little brain power.
Well, unfortunately I ran out of time as the trans was holding up the engine conversion - however I have another 5 speed here that I will use to finish up this thread within the next 2 or 3 weeks.
WCF, can you post some more detailed pics with more detailed instructions if possible.
I will probably be rebuilding a getrag eventually and would probably use this as my #1 reference!!!
thanks again!
If you look at the 88 service manual, pretty much all of the details are covered. Make sure you read that before you ask for more info from Eric; he's already given way more info than we had before, don't get greedy!
This thread should *not* be your #1 reference, the service manual should be...this is just a helpful guide for the tricky parts. After all, when the mechanics rebuild it they don't use Eric, they use the service manual.
Bryce 88 GT
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10:30 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
If you look at the 88 service manual, pretty much all of the details are covered. Make sure you read that before you ask for more info from Eric; he's already given way more info than we had before, don't get greedy!
This thread should *not* be your #1 reference, the service manual should be...this is just a helpful guide for the tricky parts. After all, when the mechanics rebuild it they don't use Eric, they use the service manual.
Bryce 88 GT
'zactly
The best resource would be to purchase the service manual for any year Fiero you have - it would be the best way to ever spend funds towards your car......
part numbers coming up, gathering all the paperwork.......
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11:50 PM
Apr 18th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Well, I found a tranny...actually got a good deal, pleasant surprise. So I've got that on the credit card...check. Now just to order those rebuild parts from gmpartsdirect.com...
Thanks again for your help Eric.
Bryce 88 GT
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12:25 AM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
I have been busy building a racecar (and preparing taxes during the day) so I havent kept up on this thread.
Ill take em though if you still have them.
quote
Originally posted by West Coast Fiero:
I would have to say neg, as the gear itself wouldn't cause the synchro to move - the gear is just along for the ride. I would have to say that the blocker ring may be worn down so bad that it does not let the synchronizer move fully and interlock onto the secong gear, if that the case I have synchro rings and a synchronizer assembly that are nearly brand-damn new that I could fire out to you
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01:58 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14251 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Oh, and Will (or anybody with Getrag rebuild tools), if you read this, I'd *really* appreciate seeing a picture of your tools to get a better idea of how you made them. I'm not lacking an imagination or the ability to create parts, just nice to see what works so I can save a little brain power.
Bryce 88 GT
I'd like to post pictures, but the tools are 900 miles away right now.
Put your thinking caps on because I'm about to describe what I had to make. The pictures in the shop manual will help a lot.
The biggest specialty tool is the assembly palette. I had to make several pieces to perform all the assembly operations for which the palette was used. The first pieces were case support blocks to support the ends of the case just like the rails at the ends of the assembly palette. To make them I used 6" wide flatstock (thickness doesn't matter much), squared all the sides in a mill and then drilled and tapped a hole in the center of one edge so that one of the case bolts could hold it in place on the case.
The next tool was the thing to press both shafts out of the case simultaneously. For this I made it pretty much way it's pictured in the book. I drilled and counterbored holes in the flat stock on a 76 mm center. These holes were used to bolt pieces of roundstock axially to the flatstock. I made three pieces of roundstock: short, medium and long. I don't remember the exact dimensions. To press the shafts out of the case, I used the long and medium pieces bolted to the flatstock. The ends of the shafts are not coplanar when they are correctly installed, so you need two different lengths of roundstock to press them out at the same time.
To put them back in, I used the long and short pieces of round stock supporting the inner (engine) end of each shaft. Since the input shaft extends much further in that direction than the output shaft, the length difference had to be larger. I could then press the bearings into the case using only the case support blocks, then use the shaft support blocks to hold the shafts while I pressed the case and bearings down onto them.
The differential shim toolset is exactly the way it looks in the picture in the manual.
There were several other small tools that were handy, but we didn't have to make because we found something lying around that would do the job or were just so simple that we weren't worried about them, like the bearing puller to press the shaft assemblies apart.
There were a few tools necessary to install new release fork bearings. These were trivial to make with a lathe and some bar stock. To pull out the bottom bushing we were able to use a standard puller designed for exactly that purpose. There's nothing special about the GM tool.
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11:24 AM
Apr 21st, 2003
87FieroGT Member
Posts: 491 From: Harlingen, TX, U.S.A. Registered: May 99
Do you guys have a pictures of the shins that are so critical to the operation of the transmission? I wish that you guys didn't stop posting the progress pictures because this is a interesting topic.
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08:38 AM
MOBILE Member
Posts: 768 From: Linwood, MN, USA Registered: May 2002
Come on Eric, the suspense is *killing* me! I've got an itchy credit card finger, and my car gives me a daily reminder that it isn't happy with the 3rd synchro and sloppy diff. Thanks!
Bryce 88 GT
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10:26 PM
Apr 29th, 2003
L.I. Fieros Member
Posts: 575 From: Long Island, N.Y. Registered: Feb 2000
Eric, what do you guys charge to overhaul a Getrag? I don't really have anyone locally that I would trust with this. Can't wait to see the final parts/price list!
Thanks, Dave
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12:13 AM
Apr 30th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Not only did my car remind me of that 3rd gear synchro, but my coworker made fun of me saying, "If you can't find it, GRIND IT!"...as if I don't know how to drive the damn car! *sigh* Ah, whaddya gonna do?
Bryce 88 GT
P.S. That means "bump"
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01:28 AM
EVLGT Member
Posts: 41 From: Aliso Viejo, Ca, U.S.F'n A Registered: Sep 2001
So, was that part about posting part numbers (and prices, although that's not important to me) just a teaser? Haha, you got me...you crazy guys always pulling crazy shenanigans!
I have ben out since Thursday with a trully nasty flu and I'm just beginning to get over it now. I came into the shop tonight ( 11pm ) to go over my messages and as well as other details I need to tend to, such as this thread.
The transmission in question had to be expidited and installed into the compound boosted car that we are currently building up thus I was not able to take pics and documentation like I really wanted to to finish it up. However I still do have all of the receipts for the parts....
heres what we got....
Timken bearing numbers: 2 of A4 - $14.50 2 of A1 - $14.75 these are new races and bearings for the carrier, available at any major autoparts store. Commonly used for wheel bearings in other vehicles.
Output seals - National Seal #3357 - 2 for $10.74
Synchronizer rings GM # 8672385 - list $54.45 each
Detent Cover: GM # 14082039 - list $17.54
2nd Gear Bearing Assembly: GM # 10051602 - list $5.42
Once again, my appologies for the length of time it has taken to respond. I do infact, however, have a second Getrag that I will need to rebuild ( as time permits ) and I will use that transmission to finish up the thread with pics of reassembly.
------------------ ( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor bastard ) :) Eric Nelson Technician, West Coast Fiero 310-305-4111
I have a tech quiestion: If I were switching the gears to different ratios, are the blocker rings and syncros specific to particular ratios? I am putting Gears from an Achieva SCX in my getrag, and I want to make sure I have the right stuff.
thanks -FD
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10:10 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Phew, thanks for the part numbers Eric, I was worried I was going to have to wing it! I compared yours to the part numbers for an 88 Getrag Beretta on gmpartsdirect.com to make sure things jived, that way I can get all of the part numbers for every part in the tranny based on the Beretta (since the Fiero Getrag isn't in there).
I have a couple questions:
quote
Originally posted by West Coast Fiero:
Timken bearing numbers: 2 of A4 - $14.50 2 of A1 - $14.75 these are new races and bearings for the carrier, available at any major autoparts store. Commonly used for wheel bearings in other vehicles.
I think you've got the wrong part number listed here. Timken's website lists the diff bearings as part "SET11" and I think in this picture I can see that:
Could you verify that the part number is actually "SET11" rather than the individual "A1" and "A4"..those part numbers seem much too short to represent the actual part number.
Will the new blocker rings solve the synchro problems? From what I understand, the synchro is made from a harder material than the blocker rings so that it wears less. By replacing the blocker rings with new ones and reusing the old synchros, will shifting return to "like new" condition?
Lastly, would you recommend replacing only the bearing assemblies for each gear as necessary, as you did, or all of them? Since they're relatively cheap and the new ones have the metal cage instead of plastic, it seems like it would be worthwhile to replace all of them. I can only imagine how pissed I would be at myself if I had to pull the tranny because I didn't replace a $6 part when I should have. The odds of the part failing are slim, and the odds of it causing much damage are slim...but for six bucks, who cares?!
Thanks.
Bryce 88 GT
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10:15 PM
May 8th, 2003
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
I have a tech quiestion: If I were switching the gears to different ratios, are the blocker rings and syncros specific to particular ratios? I am putting Gears from an Achieva SCX in my getrag, and I want to make sure I have the right stuff.
thanks -FD
I trully wish I could answer this off hand but I trullly don't know. You would have to assemble the input and output shafts and see how well the synchro sleeve slides over the hub and if you have proper engagement with the gear/blocker ring/slider
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12:44 AM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Phew, thanks for the part numbers Eric, I was worried I was going to have to wing it! I compared yours to the part numbers for an 88 Getrag Beretta on gmpartsdirect.com to make sure things jived, that way I can get all of the part numbers for every part in the tranny based on the Beretta (since the Fiero Getrag isn't in there).
I have a couple questions:
I think you've got the wrong part number listed here. Timken's website lists the diff bearings as part "SET11" and I think in this picture I can see that:
thats correct, set 11, happened to look at the wrong column on the invoice - too many late nights
quote
Will the new blocker rings solve the synchro problems? From what I understand, the synchro is made from a harder material than the blocker rings so that it wears less. By replacing the blocker rings with new ones and reusing the old synchros, will shifting return to "like new" condition?
Installing the new blocker rings will reduce the amount of travel that the shifter fork will have to acheive. Also, it provide a much more positive engagement as the new blocker ring will have more material ( being that it is not worn down ) to interlock with the slider ring and will not be sitting so far down onto the cone portion of the gear. To sum it up, all the synchro parts on the hub will be tighter together therby reducing the shifting effort and reducing the chance of "popping" out of gear.
quote
Lastly, would you recommend replacing only the bearing assemblies for each gear as necessary, as you did, or all of them? Since they're relatively cheap and the new ones have the metal cage instead of plastic, it seems like it would be worthwhile to replace all of them. I can only imagine how pissed I would be at myself if I had to pull the tranny because I didn't replace a $6 part when I should have. The odds of the part failing are slim, and the odds of it causing much damage are slim...but for six bucks, who cares?!
Absolutely - I would shot-gun the entire setup and install all new bearings and races where applicable. I also happen to have the full parts list for every bearing and race for the 4 speed, all available from Autozone for $65 and change. This would be roughly quivelant to what the parts cost in bearings alone will be for the 5 speed. All the bearings purchased from Autozone where for both ends of the input and output shafts, as well as the carrier. All seals for both transmissions ( 4 and 5 speed input seals and driveshaft output seals ) are also available through them.
[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 05-08-2003).]
