Ok, here I go again

Still doing research for building my car. Coming from dragracing the stock 93.4" wheelbase seems soooo short, but I also love a challenge and have been stuck on finding a way to build a super-performance car on it. Then I got infected with you "purists'" love for the beauty of the fastback, and walked away even more determined. So here's what I desire to pick your brains about this time:

I started looking at other short wheebase cars that have shown enormous potential over the years. At first I was looking mainly at the Cobra, which has an even shorter wheelbase than our cars. Then tonight it hit me (duh) - Porsche!!! The new 911's )according to a quick Google search) have 92.6" wheelbase, excellent handling, excellent straight-line performance, and top speeds around 190mph. All on a wheelbase that is 8-tenths of an inch shorter than ours. I know the Porsche is a much more modern and technologically advanced car, but it proves that a short wheelbase does not have to limit overall performance. Here's some questions for ya:

*What are the cd numbers for our cars (mainly fastback GT body style - but any others are welcome for the sake of comparison)?

*What are the cd numbers for the 911 (I'll go back and do some diggin for those myself of no one here knows)?

*What happens with our cars at speeds over 150mph (in other words what is the air doing to the car to upset or stabilize it)?

*Are there any inherent weaknesses in our chassis, speaking mainly of the space frame as suspensions can be changed and developed. Can these weaknesses be remedied without essentially recreating the wheel (whole car)?

I just named the questions that are dominating my Fiero-related thought processes right now. Other questions, comments, knowledge, wisdom, experience or just plain ol' two cents you have please deposit here...

perk

edited to fix a couple words that were not chosen well - I always go back after a while and read my posts to find typos and such - it's that darn perfectionist thing
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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-19-2003).]

The cd is .34 or .36, I think.

Over 150mph, I'd think the biggest problems would be the flat rear glass and the whole underside of the car. Custom under-body tray, along with a nice big hood scoop would be wonderful. And something to clean up the airflow around the rear window.. hatchback or a spoiler at the back of the roof.

I think the space frame is a pretty stout unit.

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1988 Quad 4 Coupe 5 speed click for more pics
1986 GT 5 speed
AOL: LastMinuteBastrd AIM: SavedbyJebus

To answer your questions simply; my car will outperform the 911. Dollar per dollar investment should yeild the Fiero being a better performer.

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Click to Listen!

If you want info on performance 911's, check out a company called RUF. Those guys are nuts!

quote Originally posted by California Kid: To answer your questions simply; my car will outperform the 911. Dollar per dollar investment should yeild the Fiero being a better performer.

in a straight line sure unless it is a 911 turbo then noway for a streetable fiero
on a autoX NO
on a real twistie road NO
the biggie is the mass our fieros, they are just too heavy

airo of the car be helped a lot by just adding vents on the hood and BIGGER rubber stips under the car behind the rad where the little stock strip is now or was if you lost it!!

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Perk: You are right. I was thinking on an additional note...Has anyone ever thought of the Porsche 944's claim to fame? The fact that our cars are not on (or close) to a 50/50 ratio also affects how it handles at high speeds and in cornering.

Standard: You are right as well. An underbody plate and a spoiler will help in many ways. Another factor is the way that air is forced into the engine compartment. IMHO, If there was a way to cool the engine without opening it to the underside airflow, there would be less resistance. What do you all think?

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#7277 of 46581 built in 1987.

My thoughts are on you Sean and Chris! Come back safe!

quote Originally posted by California Kid: To answer your questions simply; my car will outperform the 911. Dollar per dollar investment should yeild the Fiero being a better performer.

Pretty vague statement don't you think? Every 911, I HIGHLY doubt it. I have seen 3.8 Cars put down more HP than you claim and thats without forced induction. 364 RWHP , 2700Lbs.

Thats just the naturally aspirated cars. anyone remember Eddie bellows (It was on the cover of turbo magazine) street Driven 911 Turbo that ran mid 9's? He drove it from NY to Flordia to compete in the quick 8 , won it with a 9.68 , then drove home. Unfortunatley Eddie is Doing time right now for running a chop shop.

Jim vickers of Champion motorsports (flordia , they build lemans Audi's and 911's) drives daily a 911 RS america that puts down 374HP @ the wheels , weighs 2644 with AC. The car has the big red turbo brake upgrade , it's an earlier RS car so the body is seam welded..

There's not a street driven fiero on earth that is going to touch a car like that. Perhaps dollar for dollar. But Balls to the wall , all out performance..GOOD LUCK!

The 911 is a progressive platform , it has been refined over and over again over the last 30+ years. The fiero and in specific the 88 has had about 1/35th the development of the 911. It doesn't matter how big your engine is , who drove or built the car , it doesn't have that kind of engineering in it PERIOD!!

I love my fiero , I am in the middle of an engine swap that will put down mid 300's at the wheels. I have driven many a prepped (serios track) formulas and 88 GT's , I have also driven many prepped 84 to 87 cars. There quick , fun to drive and good platforms. But there is no way in hell I would attempt to go up against a prepped 911 in ANY of them.

911 vs. fiero.. (any year)

it's like comparing a scalple to an axe. they both perform the same basic function , but one does it with a great degree of skill and finess...

I love conversations like this , it will no doubt go down in Flames.

Do you realy think a Fiero with 4 years development is going to be on par with a 911 that has 40 years of Development? C'mon.. Koni shocks and cut springs only do so much.

Eddies 911
http://makoto.dyndns.org/media/-=Misc=-/Eddie%20Bellow%20911.avi

Here come the negative ratings!!!!!

"Slammed" is right. I have had the good fortune to own both a 911 (a '69 911S, my daily driver for 15 years) and a Fiero (an '88 Formula). While there are similarities, they represent two totally different design concepts and also reflect two totally different manufacturing philosophies. You may have noticed that there was a difference in price when new, as well.

My 911S had a factory delivered weight of ~2100 pounds (25% lighter than a Fiero) and a 2.0 liter 6-cylinder engine that produced an honest 195 horsepower at the flywheel on premium fuel. It wasn't particularly quick in the quarter mile, but it wasn't designed to be. Still, 0-60 time was 6.5 seconds (from 2 liters!), top speed (personally verified) was 148 mph, handling was superb, and the brakes were the best I've ever experienced on ANY car.

Every car (or aircraft) is necessarily a large collection of design, manufacturing, and financial compromises. Appreciate both the Porsche and Fiero for what each does well, but don't expect either to be something it's not. Bottom line: buy something you like and drive the paint off of it!

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-03-2003).]

quote I love conversations like this , it will no doubt go down in Flames. Do you realy think a Fiero with 4 years development is going to be on par with a 911 that has 40 years of Development? C'mon.. Koni shocks and cut springs only do so much. Here come the negative ratings!!!!!

I would agree. Its like all the comments I see comparing Fieros to vettes. 50 years of engineering heritage also compared to 5 years of Fiero. Dont get me wrong I love my GT its a fun car, a real blast to drive but its no vette. I know people in here have put a bazillion bux into making them vette-like and porsche-like but as you said theres still basic performance limitations inherent in the design. I spend time on a vette forum and hear guys there blasting Ferraris and Lambos all the time and its the same thing. Corvettes are world class performers but the high end vette is still only a $55,000 car compared to a quarter mill for some of the exotics. Again, I love both my go karts but lets keep a sense of reality here. I read posts in both forums and want to scream thru the computer: "PUT THE CRACK PIPE DOWN AND STEP SLOWLY AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER..."

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I love my go karts....

1985 black Fiero GT (loaded)
http://www.burtronics.com/myfiero/gtpic01.jpg

1991 L98 Corvette 6 speed coupe
http://www.burtronics.com/myvette/pic22.jpg

[This message has been edited by DarkHalo (edited 02-17-2003).]

You might want to talk with artherd (Ben Cannon) on the Forum. He's in the middle of a Northstar swap into a Formula. He's using a bunch of Porsche suspension and brake pieces, as well.

I haven't seen him on the Forum for a while, though.

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Raydar

88 3.4 coupe. In progress.

Out of my mind. Back in 30 minutes.

I'm with Slammed and DarkHalo. There's a reason a 911 Turbo can cost $200,000. It really is a different realm of performance.

What we have to ask ourselves is, how far can we go with performance and still have it actually be a Fiero? There really are limits to any design, whether it's a Fiero, or a Ferrari.

Cd for a C5 is .28 with 17's all around, .29 with 18's in the rear if I remember correctly. Or maybe it's .27 with 17's and .28 with 18's out back. I have a lousy memory . But either way, that's pretty darn aerodynamic.

Cd for a 2000 911 is .30, off the top of my head. That's still a ways away from .34-6.

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'84 Indy 5spd, 180 HP Iron Duke

[This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 02-17-2003).]

Going to have to agree.. As stated, there are basic design limitations. Putting in a bigger engine does not make your car outperform a supercar.. Dollar for dollar isn't really a fair comparison.. I could take a $50 yugo, plop $100000 into it, and turn it into a submarine.. It just has no corrolation.

One thing I have learned about PFF in the short time I have been a member is that to take full advantage of the resources of this forum you have to plant your seeds and then glean what you need from the harvest. In simpler terms, be bold enough to ask what you want to know and find your answer in the midst of positive and negative feedback.

Even though I get lots of naysayers, and even those who subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) call me a foolish dreamer, I almost always find what I am looking for.

Standard & Xantaver - Thanks for the cd numbers. I plan to run a bellypan, and probably a full hatchback - F40 style. As for making radical changes to how the air flows under, over, and around the car - only with some highly qualified assistance and/or a wind tunnel! Playing with street-driven cars is one thing, but running in mid to high triple digits is another ball game. I am going to try to get some numbers on just how stout the space frame is, compared to modern sports cars.

California Kid - I understand your point and your reply definitely figures into my equation

RWDPLZ - RUF is definitely a cut above - good tip - I forgot about them.

Slammed Fiero - No negs from me Even though you don't believe in the concept, and provided what seemed like a negative reply, you helped me big time - thanks

quote originally posted by DarkHalo: I read posts in both forums and want to scream thru the computer: "PUT THE CRACK PIPE DOWN AND STEP SLOWLY AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER..."

Yeah Yeah

The thing I have noticed, and I mean no disrepect to anyone on this forum, is that the Fiero still has yet to be actually re-engineered the way vehicles are for serious racing purposes. Here's what I mean:

*Though all types of engines have been excellently swapped in, the rest of the car has never been actually revisited as a complete package to match. One thing I think I am going to do different is design a cradle specifically for the proposed drivetrain.

*The suspension systems that I have seen thus far (with the exception of Held's Slalom) are modified factory suspensions. The suspensions bolt on the car front and rear which means you can design and build something completely new for the car. In back the new cradle I have planned will not have an X-car strut-based suspension! The front will not be modified 84-87 Fiero - OR - 88. Right now I am looking at C4 or C5 suspensions, but nothing is concrete yet.

*In my research I see areas of the stock space frame that are designed and engineered for efficient production line assembly that could be improved upon to increase the rigidity of the car. My approach will be much more radical than the average person may ever attempt, but there are also simple things that can be done. I plan to achieve true race car levels of rigidity in every aspect.

*The biggest thing I have noticed is that most Fiero owners don't do much beyond bolt-ons and simple mods. The only person I have noticed that seems to be willing to completely and actively rethink the way the car works around here is Archie. If he was a roadracer I think you would be amazed at the lengths he would have went to to develop a fast track car. As it is, his resources go into developing ways to improve the cars you drive in ways you can afford. He's a smart businessman. The GT40 project he has going is a different animal though and is more along the lines of what I am talking about. He is re-engineering a complete vehicle to be more than a "kit". Downside is he can't sell it in a box - upside is it will take the whole Fiero concept up a couple notches. That's what I am after.

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-19-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I love conversations like this , it will no doubt go down in Flames. Do you realy think a Fiero with 4 years development is going to be on par with a 911 that has 40 years of Development? C'mon.. Koni shocks and cut springs only do so much. Here come the negative ratings!!!!!

Couldn't DISAGREE more.

1) 40 years of engineering heritage my ass. First of all, for all you non-engineers out there; There is NO SUCH THING as engineering heritage. This is marketing crap designed to get you to buy their product. These are not thorough-bred horses. They are mechanical devices. The Porsche of today has as much in common with a 1970 911 as the Earth has in common with Venus. That goes for the Vette too. Each new incarnation of these cars is a "back to the drawing board" new design effort. The current Vette has an 11 year "heritage".

2) the Fiero has 9 years of design, not 4 (1979-1988)

3) Most importantly of all, if no one thought they could out engineer Stutguart or Detroit then the racing industry wouldn't exist! Enzo Ferrari, Carroll Shelby, Jim Feuling, HUFFAKER etc etc etc etc etc etc ALL said, "HEY, I can do better!" I've seen Chevy Novas that could out run any Porsche ever made.

You want to make a Porsche beater out of a Fiero? It CAN be done, It HAS been done, It WILL continue to be done.

But it won't be cheap.

"How fast can your wallet go?"
(It had to come up eventually )

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'84 Indy 5spd, 180 HP Iron Duke

[This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 02-17-2003).]

Next the inevitable question, "why would anyone put X amount of money into a Fiero?" will come; along with a statement similar to, "that is asinine", or "you're a fool".

Answer.
The same reason rich guys spend a quarter million for an "America's Most Beautiful Roadster" or "Ridler" trophy winning street rod, because it is what they want. Custom cars are a means of self expression, and an art form. To the person who wants it, it is worth whatever they are willing to pay to have it.

Personally I would have more fun with a hyper Fiero that would hand a Porsche its you-know-what than the 200K Porsche because that's my style.

I forgot - let's not make money the topic here because that's not the issue right now - the potential is.

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-17-2003).]

Porsche 911, Fiero, Chevette, Camaro...With today’s technology and engineering capabilities available, I say the car with the biggest pocket book wins. Let’s face it, stock for stock; it's like comparing apples and oranges. Porsche 911 and Pontiac Fiero are not in the same category of cars to begin with. How can you compare them? But given enough time and money you can bring a car like a Fiero up to the performance levels of a Porsche 911 or better, depending on how deep your pockets are. But if you go to that extent, do you really have a Fiero in the end?

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No motor - Soon to be a bottle fed 383 V8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
Updated! www.dirtyratracing.org

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: I forgot - let's not make money the topic here because that's not the issue right now - the potential is. perk

Perk,

Great thread! Per the quote, I know you're talking about the potential here but to totally revamp to a Porsche eater how much would you expect to expend for R&D, fab and finish?

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Getting a little closer to the topic, how dependant are Fieros on under-engine bay air flow for cooling? I was thinking of covering the bottom of the engine bay, and drawing air from side scoops into the bay, which could have some decklid vents for release. I ain't no expert on this(blithering idiot is more like it), so does this make any sense to anybody?

Just going by a book I read on the development of the Fiero you might end up with an overheated engine, unless you purposely channel some of it over the engine. From what I remember the undercar air flow is definitely a factor in cooling the engine. The deck lid engine vents are even an integral element in the car's aerodynamics. They help create a little down force. I think if they could have GM would have totally sealed the engine compartment, for the sake of gas mileage - remember it was originally pitched as a econo-commuter car.

I plan to concentrate more on managing that airflow. My approach is too radical for the average guy though cuz I am totally eliminating the trunk and that gives me lots of room to play with. Here's the Enzo belly pan:

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Couldn't DISAGREE more. 1) 40 years of engineering heritage my ass. First of all, for all you non-engineers out there; There is NO SUCH THING as engineering heritage. This is marketing crap designed to get you to buy their product. These are not thorough-bred horses. They are mechanical devices. The Porsche of today has as much in common with a 1970 911 as the Earth has in common with Venus. That goes for the Vette too. Each new incarnation of these cars is a "back to the drawing board" new design effort. The current Vette has an 11 year "heritage". 2) the Fiero has 9 years of design, not 4 (1979-1988) 3) Most importantly of all, if no one thought they could out engineer Stutguart or Detroit then the racing industry wouldn't exist! Enzo Ferrari, Carroll Shelby, Jim Feuling, HUFFAKER etc etc etc etc etc etc ALL said, "HEY, I can do better!" I've seen Chevy Novas that could out run any Porsche ever made. You want to make a Porsche beater out of a Fiero? It CAN be done, It HAS been done, It WILL continue to be done. But it won't be cheap.

Toddster , take it easy . The 911 is a progressive platform , that was my main point it has been revised over and over and has a much richer racing heritage than a Fiero ,a lot more money in development and research.

I bet there are Fiero's out there that are faster than SOME Porsches , but I gaurntee that for every ultra fast fiero out there , there are many many more fast 911's.

Comments that suggest a single fiero with some basic mods is faster than any 911 is just ludacris.

If anyone here thinks the Fiero is such a well developed race machine capable of beating the world , please come and join the fiero racing list , we have about 310 people that would LOVE to hear from you. people whom no doubt have faster cars than anyone on the forum and with a grasp on the fact that no matter what you do to the Fiero , it will not be a world beater. there are FASTER cars out there.

You would have to be a nieve dreamer to think that stuffing a V8 in a fiero , doing some suspension work and some praying would equal a car that is on par with a mega buck , modded 911.

Just to cover my own ass , I am the part owner / moderator of the Fiero racing List , I have been racing mine for 6 years and have put a boat load of cash into different suspension setups. Im in the midst of swapping a new motor into the car. My experience comes from jumping out of one of the best prepped street driven autocross Fiero's in the nation , into a 911.

similar driving styles between the two cars , but the 911 has much higher limits, and can be driven with a greater degree of precision.

94 911 RS america , Jugged and stroked to 3.8Lts , B&B triflow headers , varioram 95 injection setup , 2740Lbs , coilovers , big reds , Kinesis Supercup wheels , Kuhomo victoracers. you name , it's in there. ASP divisional champ 2 years running , canadian ASP champ 3 years running.

Booyha.

I've raced MG's and Mini-Coopers in the 1960's and 1970. After taking my 1098 cc engine into tool shops and doing the work myself...dreaming, designing, engineering, machining, assembling, installing and racing with the best sportscars like Porsche, Lotus, Daimler, Alfa Romeo....it was with great satisfaction that I could say I beat them all on the autocross courses. But, if the hours were counted, my MG was no longer a $2000 fun sportscar. On buying a Mini that was already prepared for Lime Rock Park and always running for FTD at any event we raced at, the car was the most fun I could imagine. But, when its all said and done, it boils down to wether you want to do it yourself or pay the dealer. We all have different definition of fun and how to figure out the "cool factor" in car.

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tomcat...Thanks for the help!Tomcat's 88 GT

quote Originally posted by chester: ...But if you go to that extent, do you really have a Fiero in the end?

I guess that depends on whose opinion it is, since that is a very subjective issue. What's more important to me is whether or not I will have the car that I want when I finish. I would imagine that most of the purists would say it's not, but that wouldn't take the smile off my face when I strap myself in for a spin

quote Originally posted by 87GTZ34:Perk, Great thread! Per the quote, I know you're talking about the potential here but to totally revamp to a Porsche eater how much would you expect to expend for R&D, fab and finish?

If the car will be what I want when it is finished - whatever it takes. That's what the research is about - to see if it has the potential to be what I desire. I am going through the same process a manufacturer goes through to decide whether or not to build a car. Most of the cost is absorbed in the fact that I will be building the car myself. A thousand dollars worth of materials can yield ten thousand dollars worth of product in the right hands...

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

quote Originally posted by chester: Porsche 911, Fiero, Chevette, Camaro...With today’s technology and engineering capabilities available, I say the car with the biggest pocket book wins. Let’s face it, stock for stock; it's like comparing apples and oranges. Porsche 911 and Pontiac Fiero are not in the same category of cars to begin with. How can you compare them? But given enough time and money you can bring a car like a Fiero up to the performance levels of a Porsche 911 or better, depending on how deep your pockets are. But if you go to that extent, do you really have a Fiero in the end?

VERY WELL SAID!!!

JM

Perk,

I've been reading your threads and I really think you're going the wrong route here wanting to "ultra-modify" the fiero.

A custom built tube frame with custom suspension and a fierolike body would probably be the same ammount of total work and yield a much better result.

Have you read any design books yet? Carrol, Van Valkenburg, Milliken, Staniforth . . . that's where I would start.

And people that think that their fiero with a big V8 and konis can outperform any 911(even any non-moded 911s) quite simply are morons.

See RUF Porsche post in O/T

I stand by my statement, and I did put a dollar per dollar clause in it, just to firm up I'm not talking a stock Fiero (cause anyone would be out of their mind to compare a stock Fiero with a stock Porsche). The original owner of mine who converted the car raced 911's for the Porsche Factory Team, he also raced my car on CA Tracks against 911's, so that's were my information comes from. The car even knocked the socks off Carroll Shelby who has had a lot of wheel time in many sports cars on numerous tracks in his racing career, so believe what you will.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Perk, I've been reading your threads and I really think you're going the wrong route here wanting to "ultra-modify" the fiero. A custom built tube frame with custom suspension and a fierolike body would probably be the same ammount of total work and yield a much better result...

I understand your point Howard, but a full tube chassis car is a whole different animal. The reason for working with the space frame is to have a production car road "feel". To have that "feel" in a tube frame car I would be starting from scratch and designing a new vehicle - CHA CHING $!$!$!

To take a production vehicle and re-engineer it to find its maximum potential is much easier because the changes can happen over a period of time. I can set the basic car up and make changes little by little noting what effect they have on the overall driving experience, performance, aesthetic appeal, etc., until I reach the desired end result. With a tube car I must first make it feel like a car, and then begin exploring its potential. Remember I am not building a race-only car, but rather a street car with incredible performance.

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

Yeah, it would be more challenging, but the end result would be SO much sweeter.

And I don't think it would cost nearly as much as you think it would.

$1k in chrome moly, $2k for a good tig welder, another 2-3k in machine shop time and aluminum, $2k for FRP, so lets say $20k total for something that has the potential to compete with a S7.

You can build it as streetable as you want. Were'nt you talking about a drag trans in another thread?

You can build it to have the "feel" that you want.

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: I understand your point Howard, but a full tube chassis car is a whole different animal. The reason for working with the space frame is to have a production car road "feel". To have that "feel" in a tube frame car I would be starting from scratch and designing a new vehicle - CHA CHING $!$!$! To take a production vehicle and re-engineer it to find its maximum potential is much easier because the changes can happen over a period of time. I can set the basic car up and make changes little by little noting what effect they have on the overall driving experience, performance, aesthetic appeal, etc., until I reach the desired end result. With a tube car I must first make it feel like a car, and then begin exploring its potential. Remember I am not building a race-only car, but rather a street car with incredible performance. perk

Here's their main page: http://www.ruf-automobile.de/english/index1.htm

I LOVE these guys! As expensive as the end result is, it's amazing how they're able to improve an already superb automobile. My favorite is the 959-based car (the name escapes me at the monent).

So is that basically what you're shooting for? To be the RUF of Fieros?

I enjoy reading all your threads, and wish you luck.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: And people that think that their fiero with a big V8 and konis can outperform any 911(even any non-moded 911s) quite simply are morons.

Your ignorance has been observed.

Perk, I just wanted to clarify my position a bit. I'm *totally* for making a killer Fiero. And, I agree with Cali Kid that, dollar per dollar, the Fiero definitely has that fight won.

I also think that making a tube-frame car just wouldn't be the same. It would appeal to some. As far as I'm concerned, you could put a Corvette body on it and call it a Corvette, but it wouldn't be one; just like a custom-made Fiero tube chassis still wouldn't be a Fiero.

Just my $.02, and back to business...

Perhaps some research into the McLaren F1 would be helpful, if you're interested in high speed aerodynamics. It seems to use some very interesting systems, and it looks worth investigating.

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'84 Indy 5spd, 180 HP Iron Duke

quote Originally posted by California Kid: I stand by my statement, and I did put a dollar per dollar clause in it, just to firm up I'm not talking a stock Fiero (cause anyone would be out of their mind to compare a stock Fiero with a stock Porsche). The original owner of mine who converted the car raced 911's for the Porsche Factory Team, he also raced my car on CA Tracks against 911's, so that's were my information comes from. The car even knocked the socks off Carroll Shelby who has had a lot of wheel time in many sports cars on numerous tracks in his racing career, so believe what you will.

I knew that was coming

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quote Originally posted by Kameo Kid: I knew that was coming

LOL, maybe I should have re-phrased it a little: Like why would a guy who raced for Porsche and has (or had at the time) Porsches he owns (modded one's at that), go ahead and convert his daily driven Fiero??? Answer, he knew the potential of the car and just what it needed to make it a highly competative car.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Here's their main page...So is that basically what you're shooting for? To be the RUF of Fieros? I enjoy reading all your threads, and wish you luck.

Thanks RWDPLZ, for the link and the pat on the back (that's what that was wasn't it )

As for if I am trying to be the RUF of Fieros, let me absorb their mindset and get back to ya on that later - don't wanna stick my foot in my mouth

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-17-2003).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kameo Kid: I knew that was coming

LOL, maybe I should have re-phrased it a little: Like why would a guy who raced for Porsche and has (or had at the time) Porsches he owns (modded one's at that), go ahead and convert his daily driven Fiero??? Answer, he knew the potential of the car and just what it needed to make it a highly competative car.[/QUOTE]

I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!I like it!!

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I could take a $50 yugo, plop $100000 into it, and turn it into a submarine.. It just has no corrolation.

Okay, you've said you can do it - now I want to see it!

:-)

That means a lot coming from a speaker cover and door handle engineer.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Your ignorance has been observed.

I wouldnt argue with Cali, his numbers speak for themselves dollar per dollar he owns

You know...it seems to me that for every person on here that doesn't want to give the fiero a chance, there are five more to back perk up.

I am the sixth.

I think that the Fiero base has a lot of potential. No, Howard, I am not talking about throwing a V8 and Koni's on there and taking it for a drive at Gingerman's...

We are all talking about taking a very potent design in the space frame and body and making it even better. I mentioned the 944 because it was stated to have been the best car Porsche engineered. I have personally talked to a guy that has owned them all and he sticks by his 944. The 50/50 wight ratio is enough to catch my attention...

Has anyone ever heard of the "911 Turn"?

C'mon...not everyone has to have balls to the wall displacement to compete on a sports car level. Look at Ferrari. They have a 3.?L V8 in thier cars and are putting out 300+ HP to the wheels. Get serious. If you think that SBC's are all the rage then there needs to be some rethinking done.

I stand behind the "doorhandle engineer" and "dreamer" on this one. We have a rare car and a chance to make it something that GM could have only *hoped* to achieve with the design. All we need are the believers to step up and make that happen.

Xantavar

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#7277 of 46581 built in 1987.

My thoughts are on you Sean and Chris! Come back safe!