Well, I think this thread did it. With the research I have done already and with the knowledge gained here I can see clearly now! If that's the best argument that can be made against this case, things look pretty good! Actually most of what was meant to be negative helped me see the positive better - make sense?

*California Kid gave the biggest kick to my cause. His car was built by a Porsche guy, competed successfully against them, was given a major "blessing" by a true performance guru, and already has world-class credentials.

*Speaking of Shelby, he took a decent little British sports car and elevated it to world-beating levels of performance by simply injecting a dose of American V8 muscle in it. So the argument that an engine swap cannot make a car a world-class vehicle is not sound. Had Shelby stopped by PFF first to ask if he should stick a 289 in a little dinky ACE and challenge the world, and taken the response seriously, he might be just another ordinary car guy Can it work with a Fiero too? Cali's car proves that - V8, and what I consider to be minor tweaking - BAM!

*Too heavy was one argument.
I am a drag racer and losing (vehicle) weight has been a way of life for me. When a vehicle doesn't have to be everything to everyone you'd be surprised how light it can be. My car is going to be a big kid's toy - that's all. No groceries, no assembly line comprommises, etc.

*Lack of development?
Most production car development is not towards max performance anyhow. It is to make the car compete in the new car marketplace. Every year a car must be more of everything to everyone. A pickup must be a car too, a sports car must be comfortable with storage space. The performance increases yes but just enough to be competitive. The point was made, small scale companies can compete with and often beat the large-scale manufacturers because they are dedicated to performance. As was pointed out the cars are not continuously evolved. Every so often they are all new clean slate designs. They keep the same basic design philosophy and use lessons learned but that's the extent of it. Most of the redesign has to do with crash tests and emission standards.

One must also keep in mind that I have no plans to formally compete in any sanctioned racing class. I am free to build whatever I choose. I hope to enter the car in some run-what-ya-brung type competitions some day, but only if the rules fit my car.

A 911 can cost 200K because in this country the Germans have marketed themselves as something special and we've bought it. We (Americans) pay BIG bucks for glorified German taxi cabs and poke our chests out like we're the kings of the world. They must be laughing all the way to the bank. 200-300K for hand built cars like Lambos and Bentleys make some sense but...

With allll that said (surely you guys know I'm kind of long-winded by now ) my plan is to develop the stiffest frame structure I possibly can, step up to world-class modern suspension and brakes, and add some high-winding V8 power (undecided on a transmission so far).

The bodywork will look just like a fastback GT but will be all new panels. First in 'glass, then in carbon fiber when the final details are finished.

I have some interesting aerodynamic treatments planned but that is going to be one of my biggest challenges. I need qualified help on that after the basic car has been sorted out. I would like to get the cd in the .20's eventually. I see tons of simple clean ups that could be done to help with that.

Most likely I will do the cage first, and then the bodywork. Once the look is there I can use the car as a marketing tool while I sort out the "hidden" details. Ahhh, the beauty of Fiero! I can take it to a show or cruise looking good Friday, Saturday and Sunday; then pull all the bodywork off and start cutting and welding again on Monday!

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-18-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: :-) That means a lot coming from a speaker cover and door handle engineer.

edited so the thread doesnt go down in flames

[This message has been edited by iwanna3.4dohc (edited 02-18-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Xantavar: ..I am the sixth...I stand behind the "doorhandle engineer" and "dreamer" on this one...

Thanks Xantavar, what is Gingerman's???

Hey guys, let the naysayers and slanderers be what they must be and don't let the thread go down in flames, we're on a roll. Just ignore them and they'll go away.

Hey Ben and Bryce where are you guys??? We need you!!!

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

Gingermans is a track in South Haven where a bunch of racing enthusiasts gather.

Perk,
I admire your quest and can't wait to see the final end product. Good things take time.

But be mindfull, there is allways a bigger dog out there. Renegade got started in business, not by modifying porche transmissions for replicars, but by modifying the trans for a SBC. A Porche with a SBC, hmmm. I've seen some of these brutes at autocross, and they are a force to be reckoned with.

More food for thought:

I am getting ready to do some (comparison) research on weight distribution and balance. Specifically I am interested in where other mid-engine manufacturers locate specific components and how it affects the driving dynamics. Most specifically the gas tank, but all other components as well.

GM chose to locate our tanks in the center hump. Nice and tidy, probably really safe, and puts the weight in the middle, but it leads to a small tank. I have been thinking about relocating my tank to the front, but want to know what effect it would have on handling as the weight changes.

As for the center hump, (Standard, Xantavar, and FastIndyFiero) I have an interesting idea for that. If I can successfully relocate the tank to the front without compromising handling I am thinking about using the center tunnel to take fresh, cool, clean air to the engine compartment. That would allow the use of a fully sealed belly pan to improve under car aerodynamics. Depending on how much air can be flowed through that tunnel, I may consider tapping engine air from it as well.

I'll be back with more soon

perk

edit for typo
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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-19-2003).]

I have seen pics of a Fiero with C4 suspention up front. So at least that can be done. A belly pan would be cool.

Have you studied the Lotus Esprit yet? Check the earlier Stevens re-designed ones. My favorite is the 40th anniversary edition, almost exactly like this:
http://www.espritfactfile.com/images/SEGallery/SE007.jpg

I was in one once, and now it's my favorite sports car (since TECHNICALLY the Delorean and Fiero aren't sports cars *stock*, but that's a whole 'nother argument )

The Lotus guys know suspension, but as far as component placement, you usually have to disassemble many subassemblies to get to the part you want to repair/replace. And of course,
LOTUS
Lots
Of
Trouble,
Usually
Serious

Then there's the Delorean itself, but that's no model for good weight distribution (something like 37/63).

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I have seen pics of a Fiero with C4 suspention up front. So at least that can be done. A belly pan would be cool.

That I had no doubts about cuz there are street rod type companies that have complete bolt in C4 front suspensions. All I would have to do is supply a stock Fiero unit so they could get the specs and pay the extra labor for a custom unit. Good thing for the Fiero community is that after the first one is done anyone could purchase them for normal costs.

Another good tip RWDPLZ. Thanks.

perk

edit for typo

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-19-2003).]

Thanks for the support guys'! My comments come from 31 years of experience in automotive engineering departments in all areas of the vehicle. For someone to insult me, well they just don't know who they are dealing with, and I'm not going to waste my time putting them in their place. I make over 6 figures a year in income working in automotive engineering because of what I know.

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Click to Listen!

Forgot the link
http://www.espritfactfile.com/

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: I am getting ready to do some (comparison) research on weight distribution and balance. Specifically I am interested in where other mid-engine manufacturers locate specific components and how it affects the driving dynamics. Most specifically the gas tank, but all other components as well. GM chose to locate our tanks in the center hump. Nice and tidy, probably really safe, and puts the weight in the middle, but it leads to a small tank. I have been thinking about relocating my tank to the front, but want to know what effect it would have on handling as the weight changes.

There was a very good thread about relocating the gas tank a while back. I can't remember what it was called, but I'll do some searching and see what I come up with.

Most of the problems with relocating the tank revolved around safety. It just occurred to me that having 60-70 lbs. of fuel sloshing around in the front may not be good for handling either, but I don't know how big of a problem it would be.

Perhaps some research into the Toyota MR2 Mark I would yield some good results. I'm not sure, but at first glance it appears to be somewhat similar, but still has some "inspiring" differences.

I'm just throwin out some basic ideas right now.

More later,
Nate

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'84 Indy 5spd, 180 HP Iron Duke

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: ...anyone remember Eddie bellows (It was on the cover of turbo magazine) street Driven 911 Turbo that ran mid 9's? He drove it from NY to Flordia to compete in the quick 8 , won it with a 9.68 , then drove home...

I forgot that one! It was supposed to demonstrate the enormous potential of the 911, and make the Fiero's case seem hopeless. Guess what?!!? To a drag racer like myself I just found out that another of my goals is indeed possible! If that Porsche could do it with the motor hanging out behind the rear wheels, and on a shorter wheelbase, I know what I could make my Fiero do in 1320 feet! Gonna confirm those numbers just to be sure though.

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: ...it's an earlier RS car so the body is seam welded..

That is another thing I am thinking about - seam welding. I know it adds a bit of weight but definitely increases structural integrity. Actually, considering the fact that I will be welding sheet metal, and know how to weld without building little mountains, I don't think it would be that much weight. Add it to my tab...

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-19-2003).]

I sure as hell wasn't trying to insult anyone here with my comments. My standpoint is from FIRST HAND knowledge , from racing the car MYSELF. There are very few people on this forum who actually have a grasp of the concept of racing a Fiero

George Ryan
Doug Chase

these two are just about the only ones on this damm forum to truly understand what it is to race a Fiero.

More and more with this forum I don't post. It seems as though some people are so caught up in there hopes and dreams they loose sight of reality. Stories about beating Ferrari's and Porsches and thinking that if you beat one , you can beat them all. I say again I love the Fiero , it's a great little car ,but it's no giant killer in stock form, or modded form. It can be built to be a competent street/ race machine ,but the inherient design flaws will ALWAYS be there. These are things you have to work around. They can be minimized , but will never totally disappear.

The forum is rampid with bench racers and What-Ifers. The people who actually do put up (Fiero X , 1FST2M6 and a few others) all get tired of the BS that goes on,. The little click groups. It's disgusting and more destructive than anything. You take the few people that actually knowhow to setup a car and lump them in with 800 dreamers and wannabes. The dreamers and wannabes follow each other like moths to the flame. If the knowledgeable people speak up , they are likely shot down , because so and so said this or that.

It's just BS.

I can't count how many people out there in Fiero land won't come on here because of the BS. A lot of you people are realy missing out on the REAL secrets to making a Fiero fast. I could pass along tricks I have learned that would blow your mind , but whats the point?

Flame away..more and more I find myself reading posts not by the topic , but by the person who posted.

JM

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 02-18-2003).]

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: That is another thing I am thinking about - seam welding. I know it adds a bit of weight but definitely increases structural integrity. Actually, considering the fact that I will be welding sheet metal, and know how to weld without building little mountains, I don't think it would be that much weight. Add it to my tab... perk

Be very careful doing any seam welding on the Fiero, most of the metal is two side galvanized which does produce toxic gas, make very sure you vent all the gas out of your work area.

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: Actually I am planning to use a race type fuel cell with foam or baffles inside to prevent the fuel from moving like that.

Ahh...Clever...

quote And - let me take a minute to personally thank all of you guys who are so supportive. To be perfectly honest it is because of Cliff making this such a great place to hang out, and all of you Fiero junkies, that this project is even being built. Only my wife, Kameo Kid, and God know how many times I have been tempted to go with one of my other projects, instead of the Fiero - I lost track The thing that made me want to base my ulimate project on a Fiero is this place and you guys! I even did my best to make it something that the PFF community would be able to appreciate. perk

As far as the support goes, it's guys like you that keep this place interesting. I may have some interesting facts stuck in the back of my head, but I have neither the resources nor the knowledge OR experience to do what you're attempting.

This place would be pretty boring if all we talked about was the best way to change the oil.

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'84 Indy 5spd, 180 HP Iron Duke

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Be very careful doing any seam welding on the Fiero, most of the metal is two side galvanized which does produce toxic gas, make very sure you vent all the gas out of your work area.

Thanks Cali, I will wear a respirator or fresh air system, and make sure it is well vented. Wouldn't want my little project to become a gas chamber

Any other comments you have please feel free to throw 'em in the mix. Even if you read things that disagree with your engineering expertise. Can't guarantee that I'll always follow but I am always listening.

perk

If you look closely at Porsche heritage you see it start as a hotrod VW, same basic engine and suspension, but refined. The 911 introduced struts front and semi-trailing arms rear, still not a great system but when you sweat the details even these mediocre specs result in brilliance. Even the pre-88 Fiero could have been a very competent handler if GM had put some effort into fine tuning it (what they have achieved with the Corvette is proof of their competence).

As for power, the Quad 4 in the aluminum space frame with 1988 suspension was the most impressive factory prototype because it went for a light weight sports coupe rather than an all out supercar.

Can you equal the performance of a normal 911, maybe, but will it have the "all-together" feel of the 911, unlikely. My only comment is "go for it" and let me know how it turns out.

Ira

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Ira Crummey
1984 econo coupe
1985 coupe
The Iron Duke Resource Site

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I sure as hell wasn't trying to insult anyone here with my comments. My standpoint is from FIRST HAND knowledge , from racing the car MYSELF. There are very few people on this forum who actually have a grasp of the concept of racing a Fiero A lot of you people are realy missing out on the REAL secrets to making a Fiero fast. I could pass along tricks I have learned that would blow your mind , but whats the point? [This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 02-18-2003).]

Hey Slammed, why don't you share your tricks that would blow our minds.. I for one would research them and try them before disspelling them or giving them praise. You may have something that would be usefull to a few of us that would like to make the Fiero the best it can be.. If you don't want to put them here than PM me.

There will always be conflict in ideas, that is where the best ones come from, taking the best from each.. So some may say that the Fiero was only researched and its design improved apon for a short time..I say that the research has yet to end. There are over 6000 people on this forum and a large group of that are still researching and finding ways to improve the Fiero, some you throw out and some you keep but take the best from all and build from that..The research that goes on here, by those qualified at different levels rivels what GM alone could do..So dream on and add your $.02 worth cause every cent counts.

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quote Originally posted by perkidelic: Hey Ben and Bryce where are you guys??? We need you!!!

I'm lurking silently on this one for a little longer yet. I've been very interested in what's been said so far; lately I've tried to put a little more thought into what people say here, and what that says about their character. Some of the people on the forum really shine in threads like this, where some are, quite frankly, talking out their asses. Everybody should think about which group they're in.

I've got this thread in the back of my mind...I'll come back to it this weekend when I've got more time. School is keeping me EXTREMELY busy this term!!!

Bryce
88 GT

quote Originally posted by Xantavar ...Has anyone ever thought of the Porsche 944's claim to fame? The fact that our cars are not on (or close) to a 50/50 ratio also affects how it handles at high speeds and in cornering.

I have learned that mid-engine cars handle better with a slight rearward weight bias, especially under hard braking. I would guess that the best actual ratio would be highly dependent upon the specifics of the vehicle. No doubt something I am going to have to experiment with. I plan to use similar cars with excellent handling as a baseline and go from there.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but front-engine/rear-drive cars are the ones that perform best with perfect (50/50%) balance.

perk

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-19-2003).]

I think mounting the fuel tank in the front may kill the handling. Assuming you also want to go for a bigger tank.. 15 gallons of fuel up there would be a lot of weight. And, it would also change the handling as the tank emptied.

I guess if I was going to move it up front, I'd try to put it as close to the dashboard as possible, behind the front wheels. But then you also get safety issues and a complex design with the steering linkage and brake/clutch lines. It would be easy to just slap a tank where the spare tire sits, but then all that weight is right over the front wheels. I'd think it would be a nightmare to tune the suspension with a variable weight on top of the wheels like that.

The tunnel idea is cool, but I think that's another one that would be tough to implement. There's no direct path to the tunnel from the front of the car, so you'd be stuck with scoops from the underside or running ductwork from the front of the car to get air into it.

I'd say keep the tank where it is, and just build a fairly simple body pan to smooth the airflow and worry about more complex air managment after you get the bugs worked out.

<edit>
Good high speed handling comes from a 'vette like setup, f/r and close to 50/50 if I remember right, because it gives you a higher polar moment of inertia, i.e. it takes more force to get the car to change directions. Makes the car much more stable at high speeds. Having the weight of the engine in the front acts like the head of an arrow, keeps it going straight. The closer to the middle you move the weight, the quicker you can change directions but the less stable you are in a straight line.

[This message has been edited by Standard (edited 02-19-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Standard: ...fuel tank in the front may kill the handling...bigger tank...change...as the tank emptied. ...as close to the dashboard as possible, behind the front wheels...safety issues...complex design...no direct path to the tunnel from the front of the car...or...ductwork from the front of the car to get air into it. ...Good high speed handling comes from a 'vette like setup, f/r and close to 50/50 if I remember right..Having the weight of the engine in the front acts like the head of an arrow, keeps it going straight. The closer to the middle you move the weight, the quicker you can change directions but the less stable you are in a straight line.

Excellent comments Standard. You addressed my main concern with moving the tank forward - varying weight. I can handle the task of getting everything working in harmony again, but not if it brings with it a penalty (compromised handling).

It would definitely be located just in front of the front bulkhead, and as low as possible. That may interfere with my tunnel plans, which could be remedied with a C5-style twin tank setup.

As for air flow to the tunnel, I was planning to fabricate fiberglass ducting that would bring fresh air directly from an opening in the front fascia. Part of the air would go to the tunnel, part over the radiator, and out over the windshield.

This stuff is just ideas that may or may not end up on the car. The only way to know if an idea is feasible is to explore it. Think about how crazy I would have sounded saying I was going to use Balsa wood on my floors ten years ago! Now it is a reality in a 50K car!!!

Good stuff on the 50/50 f/r layout. Makes sense why the grand touring luxury sports cars go that route (e.g. Ferrari 575 Maranello, Aston Martin, etc.)

Don't be a stranger.

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

Huh??? Am I missing something on this 50/50 thing. If you have 2 cars with 50/50 weight distribution but one has the engine in front and the other has the engine in the mid/rear, what's the difference? It seems like the location of the engine wouldn't matter at all as long as the 50/50 weight distribution is mantained. Is it being implied that a 50/50 f/r set up handles better than a 50/50 r/r set up?

I think the GT-sport touring cars have a slight front weight bias (60/40) with their f/r layouts. This would make the "arrow head" analogy believable.

[This message has been edited by turbotoad (edited 02-19-2003).]

You can have a 50/50 weight ratio even with mass concentrated at the ends of the car. The C5 and 944 achieve a 50/50 weight ratio by having the tranny at the rear of the car. You could get a 50/50 ratio with a f/f car, you'd just need a lot of ballast in the trunk

I know the 944 has a 50/50 ratio, not really sure about the c5 or anything else. The farther away the mass is from the center, the more stable it is. Of course, another thing I just thought about is that f/r setups usually have a longer wheelbase which helps with high speed stability, too..

quote Originally posted by Standard: You can have a 50/50 weight ratio even with mass concentrated at the ends of the car. The C5 and 944 achieve a 50/50 weight ratio by having the tranny at the rear of the car. You could get a 50/50 ratio with a f/f car, you'd just need a lot of ballast in the trunk I know the 944 has a 50/50 ratio, not really sure about the c5 or anything else. The farther away the mass is from the center, the more stable it is. Of course, another thing I just thought about is that f/r setups usually have a longer wheelbase which helps with high speed stability, too..

I think this is what I was missing. Actually the previous posts failed to mention these important factors. I don't believe a 50/50 f/r set-up is inherently better handling or more stable than other arangements. It depends a lot on where the mass is located in relation to the vehicle's CG and a bunch of other factors including; suspension geometry, wheelbase, tires, etc). The main advantage to a f/r configuration is that it's usually cheaper, simpler, and allows for easier overall vehicle packaging.

Hehe, I am usually silent reader, but I couldn't help but get in this one. What perkidelic plans to do is very admirable, and the fiero is an excellent base for a supercar, but it will never be the best base for building a supercar. It doesn't have an aluminum or carbon fiber chassis/monocoque, so it will always be a bit weighty for its physical size.

Now for the reason I decided to enter this discussion: The 50/50 balance myth. This thing has been perpetuated by auto magazines, though they are getting better about it. Polar moment of inertia is much more important to handling characteristics than have equal weight on all four wheels. Lets take two vehicle examples one is FR/RWD with 50/50 balance and another i a mid-engine/RWD with 40/60 balance. Which will corner better, assuming that most other variables are the same? The mid-engine one. Because the main masses are closer to the center of the car, not because balance is optimal. Also its generally considered in supercar design that its better to have more weight on the rear/drive wheels, because during breaking, the front end will dive, putting more weight on the front wheels and move a 40/60 static car closer to a 50/50 balanced car. When is the best time to have a balanced car? when turning. What do you do when you turn? You brake or slow down. Look at most Le mans cars: they are rarely 50/50 balanced. To modify a famous quote.
"50/50 Sells cars, moment of intertia wins races." I think I may have oversimplified all of this, but that is the difference between a 50/50 Front engine and a 50/50 mid-engine car handling wise. I also think putting a gas tank up front would be a rather bad thing to do. Mclaren's F1's tank is right in front of the engine I believe, which keeps heavierer things closer to the middle of the car.

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I sure as hell wasn't trying to insult anyone here with my comments.... Flame away... JM [This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 02-18-2003).]

Slammed - maybe it's just me, but I think you're one of the more knowledgeable people on this board. That doesn't mean you're the only one, but you're right up there. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you should get, uh... slammed!

Now people like Howard, on the other hand, who resort to name calling (moron, door handle engineer, etc.), are the ones who bring these threads into the dumper. People like this should just be rated accordingly and/or ignored.

I think unfortunately, when a thead starts to go sour, people divvy up sides and start taking pot shots regardless of who originally said what.

Anyway, no other real point to this other than to encourage you to continue to post, and share that knowledge of yours.

Back to your regularly scheduled flame fest...

Hartz

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'84 SC 5.7L V8
'85 SE 3.1L V6 Turbo
Hartz's Toys

Slammed:

Whether Porsche or not suspension is about directing forces. As was mentioned, early 911's have struts and semi-trailing arms.. hardly an ideal setup, but it's light and well designed. There's nothing magical about Porsche anything. It's just well designed. A 375 rwhp 2700 lbs Fiero would run with a 375 rwhp 2700 Porsche in a straight line. Similar ideas apply to handling.

My take is that even though the Fiero suspension doesn't apply force the same way, you can change the way it applies force (move pivots around). This seems compeletely alien to you, and understandably so because this kind of mod puts you in modified classes, when you're used to running in SP. No criticism here, it's just that the limits you've imposed on yourself are showing in your thinking.

Perk:

Get away from thinking about weight distribution. Think about ground pressure. Tire friction isn't linear, so you want each tire to be at the same point on it's friction curve so it responds the same way to changes in loading caused by cornering forces, braking, drive torque, etc.

You want the changing weight of the tank to have as little effect on the position of the car's CG as possible. You shouldn't be worried about weight distribution directly, but about its affect on ground pressure... well... unless you like changing tire sizes depending on your fuel state.

The stock Fiero fuel tank location is very close to ideal. If you want a bigger tank, then make the tunnel larger and use that to increase chassis rigidity. Large center tunnels work for Loti and Vipers.

86gt852m4 right on about polar moment of inertia. See http://www.k12.nf.ca/gc/Staff/Teachers/Crummey/fiero/polarmoment.htm for more details.

Ira

California Kid:

You have a PM.

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doesnt a V6 camaro have about a 50/50 distribution?

I don't know how to settle my debt yet, but somehow I owe you junkies!!! A big part of the reason that my car will be what I desire is because of the wealth of wisdom on this forum.

My specialty is creative design, and what I am attempting to do is express some of the positive attributes of this community. If that doesn't make sense now, it will someday when the car is a reailty. I hope all of you can look at it and see a little of yourself in it.

On to the business of the day:

quote Originally posted by 86gt852m4: Now for the reason I decided to enter this discussion...Polar moment of inertia is much more important to handling characteristics than have equal weight on all four wheels...I also think putting a gas tank up front would be a rather bad thing to do. Mclaren's F1's tank is right in front of the engine I believe, which keeps heavierer things closer to the middle of the car.

and...

quote Originally posted by Will: Get away from thinking about weight distribution....but about its affect on ground pressure...The stock Fiero fuel tank location is very close to ideal...

Got it. The tank stays where it belongs. I am not even going to worry about more fuel capacity right now. Maybe I concentrate more on fuel efficiency and leave a good thing alone. I have other ideas for maintaining my full belly pan and still getting clean cool airflow to the back without punching holes all over the car. I'll get into those later.

Monza76 - thanks for the link.

Got some things to do, but I'll be back with more in a hour or two.

perk

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toddshotrods.com - new biz name & site

I started reading Ari's site last nite (excellent) and burnt out from a long day before I could collect my thoughts to return to this discussion. I am well rested, ready for another long day, and ready ro dig back into my project.

Question number one for today:
Are there options for increasing stability without increasing the polar moment of inertia?

I would assume that in addition to designing in a "safe" amount of understeer, GM may have also left the steering response a little numb purposely too, in the name of safety. Getting a driver's license in America is much too easy to sell mass production cars that require any advanced degree of driving skill.

Question number two:
What is the current mid to high triple digit mph stability situation with the fastback Fiero? Is it an unpredictable animal, a normal "ok" passenger car, or better than average?

From my first serious look into handling it would seem to me that air is the key. If the chassis could be aerodynamically loaded proportional to vehicle speed front and/or rear, polar moment of inertia could be changed to suit conditions. If zipping around low to mid speed twisties the characteristic m/r traits would be in effect; but when barreling down a long straight (dragstrip for me ) at 150mph and up aerodynamics override and stabilze the car.

Question number three:
What is the hourly rate for wind tunnel testing, and where are there facilities accessible to private companies?

This is fun! I have been building custom vehicles for a longggg time but started getting bored over the past five or so. I love aesthetics but beauty just for the sake of beauty gets old after a while. A beautiful, purpose-built, machine is just what the doctor ordered...

perk

This is funny;I actually aimed at having performance akin to that of a late model carrera when I built my car.
The Fiero will need some aerodynamic work in order to not get it's cooling air supply from underneath the vehicle.
There was an interview with marketing people at Porsche a few years ago in which they clearly stated that they always try and price cars to have exactly one more customer than cars available:get it?

That is a cool website, I am going to have to read through it. I think the first thing to worry about for making the fiero a super car is engine selection coupled with handling (you need to design the suspension based on the predicted weight of the car and placement of the engine). Aerodynamics on a car our cars is decent at best, I always thought it would have a better Cd than that. There is a book I think is titled "Vehicle Racing Dynamics" that provides an overview of all the things that makes a car handle and perform well, maybe you should look for it. Also go to www.sae.org and search for info on different subjects. You can purchase articles and books about just about anything. Considering what you want to do with the fiero, the cost of the information to do it right will be quite negligible. I wish I had money *sigh*. Also search for the C5 concept papers, there is a midengine corvette idea in the paper somewhere. Several mid-engine corvette concepts have been suggested and/or built over the years. The Aerovette, I believe, was a mid-engine 3 rotor. GM always seem to stay with the front-engine, their reasoning seems to be: "It just wouldn't be a corvette if it were mid-engine."

Again good luck,
86gt

[This message has been edited by 86gt852m4 (edited 02-20-2003).]

quote Originally posted by 86gt852m4: That is a cool website, I am going to have to read through it. I think the first thing to worry about for making the fiero a super car is engine selection coupled with handling (you need to design the suspension based on the predicted weight of the car and placement of the engine). Aerodynamics on a car our cars is decent at best, I always thought it would have a better Cd than that. There is a book I think it titled "Vehicle Racing Dynamics" that provides an overview of all the things that makes a car handle and perform well, maybe you should look for it. Also go to www.sae.org and search for info on different subjects. You can purchase articles and books about just about anything. Considering what you want to do with the fiero, the cost of the information to do it right will be quite negligible. I wish I had money *sigh*. Also search for the C5 concept papers, there is a midengine corvette idea in the paper somewhere. Several mid-engine corvette concepts have been suggested and/or built over the years. The Aerovette, I believe, was a mid-engine 3 rotor. GM always seem to stay with the front-engine, there reasoning seems to be: "It just wouldn't be a corvette if it were mid-engine." Again good luck, 86gt

Pics of the aerovette taken on tuesday. The car orignaly had a 3 rotor wankel , the motor was an exercise in design and never worked very well. The easy solution , swap a SBC in there.

Look at my rating! , see what you get for saying what you think? Heaven forbid we havea differnece of oppinion on this forum!

Smell ya later!
JM

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 02-20-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero:Look at my rating! , see what you get for saying what you think? Heaven forbid we havea differnece of oppinion on this forum!

Well you have a positive from me.

I was not offended nor were my intentions to offend anyone. I was merely trying to say that I was not discouraged, but rather inspired and encouraged to pursue my project. I take everyone's words positive or negative into consideration but in the end I make decisions based on what I think is best for me. If I come off as cocky or provocative it's all in good fun - Fieros are not that serious of a subject.

I didn't address you personally again until now because I wanted to see if you would come back (to this thread) and participate again - I hoped you would. Don't take it personal when people won't take your advice. It's not a "slam" on your wisdom, knowledge, or experience, it's just human nature - sometimes we have to find out things for ourselves

edit = I forgot good stuff 86gt852m4 - keep it coming

perk

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 02-20-2003).]

You're all right! Seriously most combinations can be made to work. By far the most important factors are power to weight ratio, balance, maximizing tire adhesion, low CG, minimizing chassis flex & suspension compliance. It all depends on what you want to accomplish. Very few people will make the necessary compromises to maximize performance for a street vehicle. As in chuck the stereo, air conditioning, upholstery, heater, etc. Even a pure bred race car is a series of compromises. In my opinion mcphearson struts are one of the stupidest ideas anyone has ever puked out. Even they can be made to work fairly well. As far as the fuel tank placement goes: any variable mass should be placed on the CG. This is almost never going to happen. That's where the engine, transmission, driver, etc. goes. Compromises, compromises.