Looks like a good point to insert what the current goals are for the car:
*Target weight 2000-2250lbs (with me onboard)
*Distribution slight rearward bias (maybe 45/55%)
*Space Frame seam welded, reinforced with 12pt NHRA/SCCA certified roll cage, eventually detailed and powdercoated
*Suspension Unequal length tubular or alloy A-arms w/fully adjustable coilover shocks front and rear, custom tubular front crossmember, custom tubular rear cradle (solid mount no bushings), poly suspension bushings throughout
*Body All custom fiberglass fastback GT style bodywork, eventually carbon fiber (cf). Front clip is one piece unit, possibly with a small hinged or lift out panel for exhibition purposes. Rear clip is probably going to be a one piece upper unit with plastic Ferrari style window. Rear fascia ("bumper") and lower front quarter sections will be similar to original pieces. Doors will be fiberglass (eventually cf) copies, with trick hinges (not Lambo style).
*Aerodynamics Full belly pan (sealed engine compartment). I am going to get fresh, clean, cool air to the back from the openings in the front fascia. All exterior body panels will be subtly smoothed and refined. No pockets and crevices, no pop up lights, as few seams as possible.
*Powertrain Not sure what will be in it to begin actual testing and development, but the final result will most likely be a high-winding, fully polished Northstar. I like CHRFAB's "spider" intake, but I will probably do my own valve covers and top cover. I plan to run the Holley Commander ECU.
No formal decision on the tranmission yet. A paddle-shifted full-manual automatic sounds like it fits the overall theme. Could start with the 4T60 GM 4spd, and keep my eye on that new 6spd auto GM and Ford and developing jointly.
*Interior It will be sparse through most of the development stages, but the final result will be leather, carbon fiber, and aluminum, in the maze of powdercoated tubing.
I have had this Quaife 6spd stuck in my head for the past couple days. 20K is ridiculous for a transmission, but I thought maybe there's something really special about it that would justify it and make me figure out a way to get it in the budget. With that in mind I gave them a call today.
I hung up disappointed To justify a 20+K tranny the rest of the car would have to match so that would require a 20+K motor. Maybe a twin-turbo N*.
Problem??? The stinkin tranny can only handle 450lbs of torque Add to that the fact that the synchro-mesh, helical geared, tranny starts at $18,395 (no bellhousing, no shifter/cable, no clutch, no digital display, no dirveshaft extension tube, etc.)
We're talking 25-30K (using their parts) for a tranny that will barely handle more torque than ours
My paddle-shifted full-manual automatic is beginning to sound good. Just wish there were a gear or two more available now.
Tod I thought that I heard that Pontiac was going to put paddle shifters in one of their cars and I think it was a Grand Prix, ifso that might work ..
You did, it was even mentioned in a thread - I think in tech. Only hitch is waiting for enough of 'em to get wrecked to make it almost affordable, and then getting it to work. I'll bet that it will be integrated into car's main ECU. Would be a nice setup though.
I have had this Quaife 6spd stuck in my head for the past couple days. 20K is ridiculous for a transmission, but I thought maybe there's something really special about it that would justify it and make me figure out a way to get it in the budget. With that in mind I gave them a call today.
It's that expensive because it's very low production and it has a from scratch cast case, bespoke parts, etc.
Check out the VW 6 speed from www.eiptuning.com Supposedly it's stronger and is *only* $5K on your doorstep with a Peloquin diff. It uses the stock VW case with an extension on one end that adds 5" or so of length. All that extra length for one gear? All that extra length is used to house gears that are dramatically wider than stock.
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11:25 PM
Feb 22nd, 2003
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Yeah Will I am aware of the VW 6spd. It was suggested by someone in one of my threads last year. Right now it is actually my number one choice for a manual. My biggest concern is the "supposedly" thing. Not that I doubt their claims, it's just that no one I have access to know has an once of experience with it to confirm or dispute them.
I can even deal with 5K if the tranny is really that good, but that's more than I want to spend blindly.
A 911 can cost 200K because in this country the Germans have marketed themselves as something special and we've bought it. We (Americans) pay BIG bucks for glorified German taxi cabs and poke our chests out like we're the kings of the world.
Perk, let me start out by saying this..... I like the direction your going and the thoughts behind it. What you said about C.Shelby was very true. I to beleive in the pride of doing it your own way, making the changes you feel are needed to make the platform better than the manufacturer ever dreamed of. Setting the standard of your objective end/outcome or level of desire is always a great thing. Now your have set the standard as Porsche (and yet you beat on the drum of glorified taxi cabs) a German car company. Granted I have only worked on Mercedes Benz for a short time, and no, I wont try to tell anyone here it's the best car made today. But I will say this, 90% of the new technology you are seeing in todays American cars has come from tested and true platforms made oversea's. I have personally driven the glorified taxi's from MB like the S600 a very heavy 4 door with all the bells and whistle's. Yet it has almost 500HP and 600FTLBS of torque, does 0-60 in under 5 seconds! (see the March issue of Sports Car International pg 66 "Cruise Missiles") Remember the granny mobiles we laughed at as kids are no longer that way. Heck even the "Gods of Mondena Italy" are using the same motor's in there so called "Supercars" (Pagani Zonda C12S uses the 12 clyinder MB). You also mentioned or maybe it was someone else in this thread The time at the drawing table Ferarri 1947/Maserati 1926(owned by Fiat no less) or Lambo's 1963 or De Tomaso 1959 with there 600-700 hp V-6's! Do they all stick with the same platforms, no they continuely make changes trying to be the best.
Me I stand tall and proud when I say "I drive a Fiero". Is it stock? Heck no!! Did I change it for what I consider the better? Heck yes!! Will I ever stop trying to make it a better car? The day they pry the wrench's from my cold dead body.........
I beleive in your concept and idea's, we share the same quest and path's in many ways. Pontiac had a good Idea, they just never carried it through. Thats where "we" come in. All I ask is if your gonna set the standard stick to it and dont beat your standard up in a later reply (Alot of whats in that Porsche/BMW/foreign car came from the "Glorified Taxi cabs"....
------------------ "If you want to blend in, take the bus!" fieroharry@yahoo.com FOCOSEVA & CFOG-I
[This message has been edited by FieroHarry (edited 02-22-2003).]
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07:43 AM
30+mpg Member
Posts: 4056 From: Russellville, AR Registered: Feb 2002
When one speaks of engineering for the Porsche vs Fiero, Porsche may be based on an older design and may have had more "factory" engineering hours spent on it, but there are several other factors.
Aftermaket parts. Engine, suspension, body mods for the Fiero. How much engineering development time has been spent on that stuff. Some of it has been developed by people who have experience gained from years of racing. That's something an engineer can't get sitting in front of a tube. Add in those years.
This forum and others like it. There is a real wealth of experience. Lots of people doing different things. More than for a Porsche, because there are more Fiero owners that aren't of the gold necklace set and are willing to make changes. Add in all those years.
Also Fiero owners are more focused. Basically three models: 4 cyl, GT, & '88. How many different models of Porsche that have swappable parts? 356, 911, 911SC, 911 cabriolet, 911 Turbo, 944, 928, 968, etc. Factor in that diversity.
More Fieros were sold during '84 to'88 than Porsches during the same time period due to sales price, economy, import fighter, etc. This gives a bigger sales base for aftermarket suppliers.
Just trying to see things in a slightly brighter light.
Perk, let me start out by saying this...I like the direction your going and the thoughts behind it...
...Now your have set the standard as Porsche (and yet you beat on the drum of glorified taxi cabs) a German car company...
...I beleive in your concept and idea's, we share the same quest and path's in many ways...
...All I ask is if your gonna set the standard stick to it and dont beat your standard up in a later reply (Alot of whats in that Porsche/BMW/foreign car came from the "Glorified Taxi cabs"....
Thanks a million for the vote of confidence
Now I need to take a minute to try and explain myself - hard job
If any of you have "visited" any of my other threads you may know that my real quest is to build a Fiero Supercar. I started out talking more about drag racing but eventually handling and overall performance became just as important as my need for straight-line speed, so I started referring to my project as a world-class supercar, instead of a mid-engine drag car.
One of the biggest challenges in achieving that goal is the short wheelbase of the Fiero. I was determined (for some reason) to meet that challenge and started comparing my plans to those of currently available supercars. The reason I used the title "Is there 'porsche-ish' potential in ours cars" was honestly just marketing. I was trying to get people to read the thread and give their two pence worth because I need all of you to make it happen. I knew having Porsche in the title would draw people in.
I was not really trying to say that Porsche was the sole bench mark for my project. It is one of my bench marks but one of a a select few, not the only. The reason I singled Porsche out and used them as an example is that they are still building world-class supercars on wheelbases shorter than ours. That let me know that the wheelbase alone was not a dead end. So, I ran straight to PFF and shouted the news from the rooftop, and asked who thought we could do it too!
I realized early on that the thread got off track with a big debate over whether or not a Fiero could ever be as good as a Porsche, so I have been trying to steer it back on course with some detailed discussion of how we can realize the Fieros maximum potential.
As for Porsche, Benz, BMW, Audi, etc. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the German automobile industry. That is evident just in the fact that I strive to make my car anything like one of theirs - "immatation is the sincerest form of flattery". The comment about "glorified taxi cabs" was NOT meant to degrade the brand, it was really a silly way of saying that they are more normal than their big price tags may have people believe. There are now cars coming onto the market with as much or more content, equal or better quality and performance, for half the price.
Onward and upward now, we've gotta a world of supercars to beat
Come on Bryce old buddy, you've been lurking in the shadows, holding out, long enough You and Ben were two of the main ones that hung in there with me from the beginning (mid-engine drag racing 101) and pointed me in the right direction - you just can't leave me now man
...and where the heck is Ben, I'm gonna catch a flying horse West and hunt him down if he doesn't stop being such a stranger
Well, I'm going to try this again...last night I typed a HUGE post out, but the website was being a pain and wouldn't work. My computer bombed out while doing something else and I lost the whole thing!!! I think maybe my post is too big to deal with (err...something), so I'm splitting it up.
First of all, I'm going to list some books that you should read before doing such a huge project (if you don't already have them). I included links to these on amazon.com last night, but no way am I going through all that hassle again, you can search just as easily as me. Some of these I already own, some I soon will.
Herb Adams - Chassis Engineering Forbes Aird - Aerodynamics, Race Car Chassis Design and Construction, and also High Performance Hardware Joseph Katz - Race Car Aerodynamics: Designing for Speed Simon McBeath - Competition Car Downforce: A Practical Guide William Milliken - Race Car Vehicle Dynamics, also Chassis Design: Principles and Analysis Carrol Smith - ALL of them (...to win series) Allan Staniforth - Competition Car Suspension Paul Van Valkenburgh - Race Car Engineering and Mechanics
I know, sounds like a lot of reading, but view it as hanging out with a bunch of race car designers...I've learned far more about cars from these books than I have at school!
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Originally posted by perkidelic: What happens with our cars at speeds over 150mph (in other words what is the air doing to the car to upset or stabilize it)?
Most of the crappy Fiero aerodynamics are obvious; the pressure under the hood after the radiator, the vertical rear window, the messy undercar area, and the requirement for some airflow under the car to get into the engine compartment for cooling. The biggest challenge among these is the rear window area, as it's not only a major part of the car design, but changing it will drastically change the look of the car (which I really like because it's unique and cool looking) and will also require a rethink of the engine air flow. Using scoops on the sides you can get air into the engine compartment, but some vents would also need to be added to the rear of the car. The reason for the vertical rear window is because it is used to create a vacuum (pressure drop) above the engine vents, drawing under car air out and cooling the engine bay. I saw a pic that shows this really well in one of Doug Chase's threads here. You can see from the dust in the first picture how the vacuum is pulling air up through the engine vents.
The reason this is so bad for aerodynamics is twofold. First of all, that pressure drop is pulling on both the rear window and the decklid. The force pulling up on the decklid is offset by the downforce on the car, but the force pulling back on the window area creates a lot of drag. This drag is a function of velocity squared, so as your speed increases the force pulling backwards gets much higher much faster. Forbes Aird gives some really good automotive relationships of power vs. speed and how to improve this. Second of all, the immediate drop behind the roof creates all sorts of nasty airflow; by that point the stock fiero probably is mostly turbulent anyway, but that drop is DEFINITELY not helping make smooth flow.
The hood pressure dilemma is easy enough to fix. The pressure can be vented to many places, some prefer the fender wells, some prefer making a hole in the hood. You can come up with many ways to do this.
The undercar airflow is a mess on many production cars, and our cars are particularly weird with the radiator air and engine compartment flow. If the bottom is sealed off, and work is done to improve the airflow for the radiator and engine compartment, I think some quite noticable gains in coefficient of drag could be seen.
Of course there are lots of little things that can be improved on once you tackle the major things...cowl area, trim, mirrors, body seams, etc.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: Are there any inherent weaknesses in our chassis, speaking mainly of the space frame as suspensions can be changed and developed. Can these weaknesses be remedied without essentially recreating the wheel (whole car)?
As with any production car, the biggest downfall for rigidity is the huge gaps required for the passenger compartment, doors, and windows. Gerald at www.8shark.com removed the doors and welded some tubes into the chassis in their place. I'm sure this helps a lot, but there are a few more places you could add bracing that would further add rigidity. If you haven't, you should go through his whole website, as he's breaking a lot of new Fiero ground sharing his progress along the way, and has some interesting ideas (his project isn't all that different from yours, except that it's dedicated to autocrossing). After reading the books by Aird, Adams, and Van Valkenburgh on race car chassis, it'll become more clearly what is desirable. Too much to explain here, and it also depends on what you want for passenger space and creature comforts.
[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 02-23-2003).]
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04:00 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Originally posted by perkidelic: Right now I am looking at C4 or C5 suspensions, but nothing is concrete yet.
Keep in mind that the best suspension made for a C5 won't be the best suspension for your application. After reading the aforementioned books, you'll realize how many details actually contribute to a well performing setup. I'm not going to go into all of it, that's why there are books written on it, because it's too much to generalize about.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: The deck lid engine vents are even an integral element in the car's aerodynamics. They help create a little down force.
As I said earlier, the vents only help to lessen the vacuum above the decklid by sucking air from under the car. This isn't creating downforce, this is just lessening lift generated (thus an increase from the downforce that would be seen if the vents weren't there).
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Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: A custom built tube frame with custom suspension and a fierolike body would probably be the same ammount of total work and yield a much better result.
True, if perk knew what he wanted very very specifically, starting with a tube chassis would be best...BUT (very big but) when a vehicle is a continuous project that will see lots of changes, a "mule" is what is needed. Nearly all prototype vehicles begin life as another vehicle that is modified for the new idea; it's easier to modify an existing part until you have a clear idea of what you want/need, and THEN a new part is created based on that. I think using a mule is the best way to go for a project like this because it not only limits the "creep" of the project (I know personally that the more you work on the car, the more ideas you come up for it, and the longer it takes), but it also keeps costs down and gives you more time to focus on getting things done instead of getting things started. By getting things started I mean that when starting from scratch, you have to get the frame and components about 85% sorted out before you can even test it out...at which point in time you may find a flaw in how you did it that will be a PITA to fix.
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Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: ...so lets say $20k total for something that has the potential to compete with a S7.
Comparing to 911s can be understood in some aspects, but there is no way in hell you can build anything for 20k to compete with the S7. Okay, maybe for looks...but no way for performance. I've got to draw the line here buddy.
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Originally posted by Xantavar: I stand behind the "doorhandle engineer" and "dreamer" on this one. We have a rare car and a chance to make it something that GM could have only *hoped* to achieve with the design. All we need are the believers to step up and make that happen.
Very well said.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: One must also keep in mind that I have no plans to formally compete in any sanctioned racing class. I am free to build whatever I choose. I hope to enter the car in some run-what-ya-brung type competitions some day, but only if the rules fit my car.
GOOD! I'm doing the same thing with my race car...building it to have fun. If I can only use it twice a year at open track days, so be it, maybe I'll save some time and money that way!
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Originally posted by perkidelic: I would like to get the cd in the .20's eventually.
You mean .2s, not .20s...right????? No way you're going to get .20, but high .2s is definitely a possibility with a lot of thought and experimentation. Once again, get the aerodynamics books I listed above, it'll be an immense help!
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Originally posted by perkidelic: If I can successfully relocate the tank to the front without compromising handling I am thinking about using the center tunnel to take fresh, cool, clean air to the engine compartment
This is something I'd never thought of, and would definitely be worth some experimentation with when I get our race car going. I definitely would NOT move the position of the fuel cell, as it's in the ideal location, but you may want to add some capacity (which can be done many ways according to your needs). You can still run air from front to rear...here's my thoughts on that. You have to run air through the radiator, no denying that, and the best place to get air in is the front of the car in the high pressure zone. The engine compartment also needs air, but it's difficult to get because of the limited air supply back there. Several birds could be killed with one stone by running an air passage from the front of the car to the rear; instead of venting the radiator air out the hood it could be channeled to the rear, the bottom of the chassis could be smoothed out without worrying about air getting to the engine, and the engine air could be directed more easily when getting it from a channel to put it where it needs to be. Of course the air would be a little warmer after going through the radiator, but that would be much better than the current situation. Also, this would be the easiest way to allow for making a bodypan and getting rid of the rear window vacuum generator (again, ruins Fiero look, but much better for performance).
Basically, air would be directed into radiator and then into a smaller passage (I figure one square foot cross section max). In my case, this can be run through the passenger side of the car, but if you want a passenger you'll have to be more creative, possibly dividing it into smaller sections along the bottom of the car or the sides of the tunnel. This air could then be run using a couple tubes to the places it's needed. Lastly, vents could be created somewhere on the rear of the car or integrated in the the back of the bodypan (where there's vacuum or lower pressure at least) for the air to exit through. The only problem with this setup as I see it now is the lack of airflow when sitting still. The radiator fan probably wouldn't provide enough airflow to cool then engine compartment as well, but a few smaller auxiliary fans could be used. Lots of ways to do this, but the concept is interesting.
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Originally posted by California Kid: Thanks for the support guys'! My comments come from 31 years of experience in automotive engineering departments in all areas of the vehicle. For someone to insult me, well they just don't know who they are dealing with, and I'm not going to waste my time putting them in their place. I make over 6 figures a year in income working in automotive engineering because of what I know.
More power to you Tom, for knowing where you stand and not letting a few naysayers ruin the fun for everyone! I aspire to be "that guy" with all the experience, knowledge, and dough someday.
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Originally posted by perkidelic:
That is another thing I am thinking about - seam welding. I know it adds a bit of weight but definitely increases structural integrity.
This will help things, and adds *very* little weight overall. As Tom said, make sure you avoid the gas, and also make sure you coat everything well after you're done.
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04:01 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
A lot of you people are realy missing out on the REAL secrets to making a Fiero fast. I could pass along tricks I have learned that would blow your mind , but whats the point?
Jonathan, I know you catch a lot of flack, but please don't let the few jerks ruin it for everybody else. I, for one, like to learn as many "tricks" that I possibly can about anything, and would not give you crap for sharing your experiences. The point is...just as you've gathered lots of little bits from others to help your cars improve, others would like that sort of help too. I joined the racing list to avoid the all-time bench racers and get some real world information from those racing the Fiero. I can read books about theory all day, but the most applicable information to my immediate needs is available from those with experience. I'm the first to admit I am far from a pro, and all the preparation in the world won't be enough when it is finally time to race my car.
Please don't get so worked up over such little things...I'd really like to keep you around, unlike the few you mentioned that don't come around anymore. I like to believe that the contributors can outlast the "bench racers"...but I've seen too many of the real contributors go away.
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Originally posted by Will: Get away from thinking about weight distribution. Think about ground pressure.
Yeah, what he said.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: Are there options for increasing stability without increasing the polar moment of inertia?
Stability is dependent on the moment of inertia, but is also greatly dependent on suspension setup. For example, zero caster will make the car very twitchy, while lots of caster will make the car seem slower to respond to steering inputs. Again...the books explain this in the detail it deserves.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: What is the current mid to high triple digit mph stability situation with the fastback Fiero?
Surely you don't mean 999 mph! High speed stability is highly dependent on suspension settings and airflow management. Stock...very poor, but lots of hope. Balancing the car for low speed and high speed stability is very technical, almost an art. I can't say enough how much it's helped me to read the books...
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Originally posted by perkidelic: What is the hourly rate for wind tunnel testing, and where are there facilities accessible to private companies?
HA! Yeah...right. If you needed to ask, you couldn't afford it. Also, even if you could afford the tunnel, you'd have to find somebody who knew what to gather from the information. An interested graduate student or professor with access to a lab is your best bet...somebody willing to do it really cheap or free for fun.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: *Target weight 2000-2250lbs (with me onboard)
With your other listed requirements (such as 12 point cage and V8), this is HIGHLY unlikely using the stock chassis. Again, Gerald from www.8shark.com is somebody you may want to talk to about this. His car is on its way to becoming the lightest Fiero I've ever heard of, but he's making MAJOR changes, using very little of the stock chassis. You may want to do a little more research as to what kind of weight is obtainable. I think 2250 would be obtainable, but not including your own weight with a road-going car. I need to do some of this research myself, but low priority right now.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: The stinkin tranny can only handle 450lbs of torque...
Keep in mind the Getrag is only rated for 200ft# of torque. Not justifying the 20k price tag, just something to think about. Personally, I think the modified VW tranny sounds very promising. It would be worth your time to talk to EIP Tuning about it in more depth, maybe getting some contacts of guys using it. A while back there was a British guy claiming to be using it in his car, but he disappeared with little info left behind. Perhaps EIP knows more about some Fiero using this...? Another option that's affordable and proven is the Webster four speed Getrag gears. This limits you to only four speeds, but allows choice of gear ratios and is much easier than adapting the VW trans.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: Come on Bryce old buddy, you've been lurking in the shadows, holding out, long enough......and where the heck is Ben...
Lurking in the shadows? Hardly...just checking in on occasion without time to reply. This has been my busiest school term ever, so time for the forum has been hard to come by. Last night's post really pissed me off, but I knew I owed a post still.
Ben has been really busy with personal stuff lately. He's moved and his business as moved with him. I hope all is well with that, as well as his own project. He said from the get-go that his car is a long term project so he could pull all the stops and do it right, so I am confident that he'll have time to get back into the loop soon. I sure hope so anyway, as I miss his posts!
Phew...and that's all I've got to say about that! Dang, took me two hours, about thirty minutes faster without the amazon.com links.
Oh...I tried it without splitting it up and it wouldn't work, but when I split it into smaller sections it went through no problem. DOH!!!
------------------ Bryce
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04:02 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Ahhhhh, like a cold Pepsi on a hot sunny day! It took you three pages, 91 posts, and almost 1800 views to deposit some of that great brain activity of yours but it was well worth the wait! You came loaded!!!
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Originally posted by Nashco:
I know, sounds like a lot of reading, but view it as hanging out with a bunch of race car designers...I've learned far more about cars from these books than I have at school!
First thing I'll say is thanks for the suggestions on the books. I'll devour them eventually. Someone else suggested a book somewhere back there that I intended to get too.
As soon as I can set aside a least a few hours a day to do it cuz I hate to start reading and have to stop as soon after a couple "bites". Gotta get at least enough in each sitting to be satisfied, if not full or stuffed.
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Originally posted by Nashco:
With your other listed requirements (such as 12 point cage and V8), this is HIGHLY unlikely using the stock chassis...You may want to do a little more research as to what kind of weight is obtainable. I think 2250 would be obtainable, but not including your own weight with a road-going car...
I have been checking the 8-Shark car out - haven't been there in a little while and needed to go take a peek again - thanks for the reminder. My goal comes from my personal experiences with cutting up and modifying Fieros, as well as what he has done. When I cut up the one car to build a Pro Streeter we had to lift the section of the car (driver/passenger compartment) that I wanted to use up and unto the new chassis. I have a rough idea of how much weight I will be adding back to it - that's where my estimate came from. I'm not saying that I will DEFINITELY meet my goal but I believe it is definitely possible. Oh, and I only weight 140lbs
OMG... Perk, you sure called Bryce out and he came full force like the Marine's hitting the Iraqi border...
Great Job Bryce!!
------------------ In memory of the family's, friend's and especially the 12 children of the Crew Member's of The Space Shuttle Columbia. February 1, 2003
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10:36 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Related to the top speed topic, mine has run 165mph with a little pedal left/rpm left. The car was very stable at that speed. Personally I can't think of hardly any ocassions when you would want to do that speed, It is a real rush though!!!
Related to weight reduction: 1. Start with the interior first, gut everthing, including the instrument panel. Then start fabricating thin alum panels to replace those parts. Replace original carpet with lightweight, discard original foam pads under carpet and replace with cotton shoddy absorber pad (J.C. Whitney). Replace factory seats with light weight racing seats.
2. This is a tough one, but will yeild very significant weight reduction. Make copies of all you original body panels in thin skin fiberglas (more cost effective, less complicated than carbon fiber). Very little affect on crash integrity of the car, stock panels are pretty darn heavy in comparison.
You don't want to mess with the Chassis unless you really know what you're doing. It is one of the best out there from a crash stand point, and is very similiar to designs incorporated for race cars that don't use tubular setups.
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02:39 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Nashco: You mean .2s, not .20s...right????? No way you're going to get .20, but high .2s is definitely a possibility with a lot of thought and experimentation.
Yeah that's what I meant - ".2s"
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Originally posted by Nashco: I definitely would NOT move the position of the fuel cell, as it's in the ideal location
I am not going to move it now, but I noticed that the 8-shark car's tank is up front.
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Originally posted by Nashco: You can still run air from front to rear...and the best place to get air in is the front of the car in the high pressure zone...Of course the air would be a little warmer after going through the radiator, but that would be much better than the current situation...(again, ruins Fiero look, but much better for performance).
I am definitely going to channel air from the front (high pressure zone) back to the engine compartment. I have some interesting plans for it but I won't reveal them until I do some measuring and experimenting. It's going to be all fresh clean cool air, the radiator air will go elsewhere. Definitely going to have a closed hatch too, seeing the engine compartment through a big window will help balance the looks of it All spent gases will be exhaled out the back into the low pressure zone. Probably will use fans, if needed. That would be an interesting feature - to have a set of fans kick on while the car is idling or resting! The sound of the fans and air through the ductwork would have to be pretty distinctive.
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Originally posted by Nashco: Surely you don't mean 999 mph!...Balancing the car for low speed and high speed stability is very technical, almost an art...
What's wrong with 999mph?! Gotta set your sights high ya know. That was a joke for those who are humorously challenged I plan to do some serious reading and learning, but in the end much of that will be left to those who are more experienced and qualified than myself.
I'll take a sec here to reiterate my role in all of this. I am the designer and supervisor. It is my vision and I am responsible for making it a reality. I am kind of like a composer and director. I write the song, and then seek out all the best people to make it "live". To do that successfully I should understand as much about everything that I possibly can - that's what I am doing here. I am learning from all of you. When I joined PFF I realized the ENORMOUS potential of both car and the people. This is my quest, like a songwriter or a painter, to express what I see. Does that make sense?
By the way, nice solo Bryce
trying two separate posts - got stuck - taking after Bryce...
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02:58 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Nashco: HA! Yeah...right. If you needed to ask, you couldn't afford it. Also, even if you could afford the tunnel, you'd have to find somebody who knew what to gather from the information. An interested graduate student or professor with access to a lab is your best bet...somebody willing to do it really cheap or free for fun.
Don't count it out just yet old buddy, I can be pretty resouceful if I am motivated enough and I'm getting there. I wanted to know the going rate so I know what I am bargaining for. When a person has something you really want, you have to find a way to get something they want just as bad - then you can talk!
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Originally posted by Nashco: Well, I'm going to try this again...last night I typed a HUGE post out, but the website was being a pain and wouldn't work. My computer bombed out while doing something else and I lost the whole thing!!!
Don't you hate that? I can't coundt how many times that has happened to me. Now I copy my entire post (ctrl-a / ctrl-c) before I send, just in case. Then when it bombs I smile and paste in back in there. If I am really serious about it I paste the whole thing in Word where I can keep it indefinitely until I get it to work.
FINAL COMMENTS (for this reply - I'm never really done )
I have no set time frame for the project right now because I am more interested in getting it right than getting it done. When I finally do have the basic car set up and begin the actual development phase, I will need some of the experienced guys that think I don't value their knowledge and wisdom. I am going to do the straight-line testing myself but I'll need to hand the keys over to guys like Jonathan, George, Doug, Gerald, George, and good ol' Ben, to find out what it capable of in the twisties. Right now what I need is out of the box innovative ideas. Some will prove feasible, some will be tossed, but most will be considered and researched.
As for my weight goals, I took another look at Gerald Storvik's car and I am pretty confident I will succeed. As I said, I have cut one up, and have felt the weight of all the pieces of these cars. I have a good idea of what will happen.
Thanks for contributing Bryce, don't hold back man, let it all out
Originally posted by perkidelic: I'm not saying that I will DEFINITELY meet my goal but I believe it is definitely possible. Oh, and I only weight 140lbs
After taking another look at www.8shark.com I saw that his target weight is 1300! I didn't remember it being that low, I seemed to recall 1800 for some reason. With that in mind, I suppose if you were to get down to 1800 streetable pounds, then add a roof, your cage, and your own weight...2250 is entirely possible.
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Originally posted by California Kid: You don't want to mess with the Chassis unless you really know what you're doing. It is one of the best out there from a crash stand point, and is very similiar to designs incorporated for race cars that don't use tubular setups.
Keep in mind torsional rigidity of the stock chassis is going to be more important than crash safety in perk's case because he's going to be installing a NHRA/SCCA spec cage. Crash safety will be light years beyond the stock chassis! The cage and stock chassis will help each other out for both safety and rigidity.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: I am not going to move it now, but I noticed that the 8-shark car's tank is up front.
I've fought with this for a while, and I will soon have to come to some sort of conclusion about it. The reason he moved his tank is because the front was to try and get more weight up front. Since it's easy to remove so much weight from the front of the car, the front gets really light....and you have all this fuel weight to put somewhere! He is now doing extensive mods to the rear that should lighten the back end up some, so I wonder where the fuel will go after that.
It's hard to say how it "should" be handled without taking actual corner weights of your specific vehicle. For me, that's very low on the totem pole, still have to get the engine in and the suspension rebuilt.
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Originally posted by perkidelic: Don't count it out just yet old buddy, I can be pretty resouceful if I am motivated enough and I'm getting there.
Well, I've never priced it out myself, however I have seen prices floating around. On a Lotus mailing list I'm on, somebody said that it's about 600 pounds (British) an hour, which works out to about $950/hour. Like I said, best bet is to find somebody with access to one at a school. Private companies do rent theirs out, but it's pretty hard to get free stuff past management there.
There IS the alternative of modelling your part in a CAD program and testing it mathematically. The entire car would be very complex, so you'd have to make some simplifications...just as you would with a scaled model. I have access to this kind of software, but haven't had the opportunity to play with it yet. I can't wait to, though, because I've even found the stress and heat stuff I've done fun!
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Originally posted by perkidelic: I am going to do the straight-line testing myself but I'll need to hand the keys over to guys like Jonathan, George, Doug, Gerald, George, and good ol' Ben, to find out what it capable of in the twisties.
Don't limit this just to Fiero guys...any experts in the field will do! Of course, Fiero guys will probably be most willing to help...
I suppose that will conclude part 1...to be continued. (what a pain)
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01:17 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Perk, I'm curious what kind of scope your project has...because I don't remember you ever saying what you do and don't want to keep.
What will remain stock on the chassis? Of course the front and rear suspensions will be reworked, but what about the rear frame section, front frame section, and the passenger compartment?
The exterior is fairly easy to lighten up and still look good by using composite panels. The interior, however, can go many ways. Personally, I'm a minimalist...utilitarian if you will. I prefer zero interior except what is necessary; basically, I just want the seat, steering column, gauge console, shifter, switches, cage, and perhaps (composite or aluminum) skins over the door panels and center console. Without carpetting and such, things are obnoxiously loud and quite stark, though. That doesn't bother me as much as most...so where do you stand on this? You going to have carpet, dash, upholstery, headliner, console, etc.? Are the console and dash going to be cosmetic, or just basic geometric covers.
Also, what are your plans for the windows? Glass is ridiculously heavy, but sometimes it's the only way to go for abrasion resistance. Also, race cars are easy because they don't need to have the windows go up and down, which allows more room for the cage. If you plan on having full HVAC, the windows wouldn't need to be functional of course. HVAC also fits into the creature comforts section with the upholstery and such. Are you going to have a heater and/or air conditioner?
Lastly, what are your plans for wheel, tire, and braking components? Since the car will be so much lighter, the stock brakes will work quite well. With a custom suspension design, the stock brakes don't fit into the picture though, and the options become almost limitless. Are you thinking you're more likely to go with off the shelf parts, or high end components. Also, the braking requirements, suspension changes, and traction requirements will all modify what you need for a tire/wheel combo. Will you be going with the "supercar" theme and using huge brakes and wheel, or trying to keep things as light as possible? For 150+ mph stops, the bigger brakes would definitely be desired, but all the rotating weight that goes along with bigger brakes/wheels/tires hurts acceleration. Thoughts?
Bedtime...
Bryce 88 GT
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01:35 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Nashco:(referring to gas tank location) For me, that's very low on the totem pole, still have to get the engine in and the suspension rebuilt.
Same here, that's what I realized after putting a little thought into it.
In the thread on California Kid's car you said you were thinking about using a SBC. Where are you on that one? I think I will probably use one to start - N* may be the final destination though. My SBC would be a 355 set up to turn to at least 8K. I would want it to mimic the power/torque curve of the my ultimate N* as much as possible.
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Originally posted by Nashco:(referring to wind tunnels) On a Lotus mailing list I'm on, somebody said that it's about 600 pounds (British) an hour, which works out to about $950/hour.
I don't mean any time soon, but in the overall scheme of things I would gladly pay that to fine tune my car before doing all the body panels in carbon fiber. Over time this will be a high budget project.
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Originally posted by Nashco: There IS the alternative of modelling your part in a CAD program and testing it mathematically.
Using something like that would get the car pretty much there, and make the most productive use of tunnel time. I like it
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Originally posted by Nashco: Perk, I'm curious what kind of scope your project has...because I don't remember you ever saying what you do and don't want to keep. What will remain stock on the chassis? Of course the front and rear suspensions will be reworked, but what about the rear frame section, front frame section, and the passenger compartment?
I have refrained from sticking a lot of pics in this thread because it naturally evolved as a text-format think tank, but this is the best way to show you where I am headed. I have soooo much work to do on this drawing and there are tons of errors in it, so please ignore them and hopefully it'll give you an idea of what will be at the core of my car...
You should be able to see clearly where the majority of my weight reduction will come from (in the space frame). Main front and rear frame rails remain, but all the upper structure is replaced with the cage. There will be diagonal door bars running from the upper rear corner (middle of rear hoop) to the lower front corner (bottom of front hoop). Doors themselves will be fiberglass (eventually carbon fiber - "cf") copies.
Passenger compartment is pretty much intact - that's the part of the Fiero that most directly affects what you experience and I want to preserve some of that.
Cover this with fiberglass body panels (eventually cf), lighter suspension, comparable powertrain, lighter interior, and it doesn't add up to much.
The best way I can describe my interior is a rough and ready race car with "soft skin". Fiberglass (possibly cf) panels skinned with really thin animal hides will cover most surfaces. Looking for something different for the floors than traditional carpet. Aluminum everywhere possible as opposed to steel. How about we call it "cosmetic covers" Basically what I am after is an interior that resembles a production car interior, but is as light as possible. Not overly worried about sound control, etc. This is a purpose built car, and I want the driving experience to fit that purpose. If I can get it to the point where it never lets you forget what you're in, but doesn't wear you out in an hour, I'll be happy. Maybe kind of motorcyclish - a man and machine kind of thing.
The windshield will definitely be a laminated OEM-style piece. The rear window will most likely be plastic because the rear down strut tubes of the cage will probably pass through it. Sides will probably use real glass for convenience. They will roll up and down. I think I will use power too. I have seen really compact neat street rod systems that would be much much lighter than even GM manual units. That also allows the cage to be as close to the door as possible - more interior space.
I do plan to have HVAC. I want to run the smallest lightest aftermarket unit I can find. I want the car to be driveable in almost any condition. A/C - not completely sold on that one. Mixed emotions. If the weight is close it'll be one of the first things to get nixed.
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Originally posted by Nashco: Lastly, what are your plans for wheel, tire, and braking components?
I will speak mainly of what I want on the final result because I am sure I will go through quite a few combinations along the way. For the very beginning I have two sets (15 & 16") rims that I will use to set the chassis up because I can change tire sizes really inexpensively as I do the initial set up.
I imagine that there will be two or three sets of wheels for the car eventually.
*One - since it is my company flaghip marketing tool I will undoubtedly have a set of the biggest, lowest profile, possible - probably 20's rear/19's front - for exhibition and "normal" street driving.
*Two - a set for real performance runs that is the best compromise for rim weight and tire choice.
*Three - Maybe an additional set for straight-line runs if number two doesn't work well enough there.
Everything will be set up around the max performance ideal. In the end I want the biggest most powerful brakes that make sense for the car. Braking is one of the performance areas I want the car to really shine in. Definitely high end components. When it comes time to pick the ultimate combinations in these areas I hope to have hard numbers for the manufacturers of them to base their reccomendations on.
edits - cuz it was late, I was sleepy, and didn't get everything in there and everything right 9:43am - 10/24
Originally posted by perkidelic: In the thread on California Kid's car you said you were thinking about using a SBC. Where are you on that one?
We're using the 3400 DOHC in our race car; we got a killer deal on the motor, and the weight/power is good for what we want.
For my GT, I'm 98% sure I'm going to be using the Northstar. I love the engine and it's potential, and I'm a much bigger fan of high RPM power than pure bottom end grunt. My long-term goal is to have the 3400 in the race car up to about 270 hp NA and the N* in my car to about 420 hp with a turbo. I've also got my VW project along with the Fieros, so the timeline is hard to be sure on.
very good thread and ideas here YES IT CAN BE DONE BUT AND A VERY BIG BUT you will spend alot like 20k just for a tranie and total will quickly go WAY HIGHER THAN A used 935 purerace car canbe found for with a little luck, and remember they WON sepring le manz and daytona 24 with one of those cars will you get a perfect 935 no but a ragged out old racer canbe had in the 30-45k range with a long hunt and a little luck and they have 500rwhp and 200+topend race proven setup
but do a fiero and lets see how that compares I think you are doing a GOOD THING HERE just not a cost effective one!!!!!!
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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10:44 AM
Apr 15th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Any progress perk? I've been fiddling with some projects lately trying to get remotivated now that I'm out of school for a few months...got to thinking about your project and wondered how things are going.
WOW where was this thread? Man I missed out. Firstly to get cooling for the engine I would use the side scoupes and make a vented rear bumper! Since you mentioned already that you wanted to have a very light car make alot of holes in the rear bumper so air can flow through it out a vent could easily be done. This is what we do in our camaro lightens the bumper and gives better cooling HEY That looks exactly like my diagrams perk (joke) I guess good ideas come to good people I suggest that you remove the inner wheel wells and vent the rad through those. I also have many plans on modifying my car but need a garage and lots of time. The one piece fron body is EXCELLENT drag races have them for a reason. following yore example part 2 below
OK part 2 I have learned alot from oval racing and just because youre car only weighs XX amount dosent mean it will be killer fast. drag racing maybe but not for real world racing. I am on a championship crew three in a row BTW and we don't have the lightest car. What matters is WHERE the weight is not HOW much. Just because a car has 50/50 sitting on scales dosen mean it is 50/50 when you drive I gaurentee this. Things MOVE when you corner youre ride height changes even the wheel base will change. So you must design a car with this in mind. I think a 48/52 would be perfect because theoretcally the car will be close to 50/50 when braking and when accelerating maybe 47/53. Dont quote me I am not a engineer or anything I applaude youre efforts and wish you the best. "By all means ask questions you just might get the answers you are looking for." you can quote me on that one
------------------ Stock 85 GT 4 speed 2.8
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04:13 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Hey Perk, I don't know how I missed this thread, but now that I found it, I thought you might appreciate some things I found out.
My 8shark Fiero is now at about 1700 pounds, and with the 8 gallon fuel cell in the front and the battery in the front, weight distribution is at about 44/56 F/R. (that is with basically stock frame and body panels everywhere forward of the rear axle, other than the removal of the roof) I figure I can easily take off another 100 pounds just by lightening the hood, and a few other areas. Horsepower is a generous 200 BHP, and first time out with the new rear suspension, (still not fully tuned) we beat an A-Prepared Porsche 914-6 that had been getting top time of day before. (well, ok, Ric beat them by a full second, I was still a little behind them)
I am surprized no one mentioned the 914-6 Porsche, it is a direct equivalent to our Fiero in that it is the only Mid engined Porsche, and I can tell you from many years of seeing them at autocrosses, the well set up ones usually beat the 911s, 944s, etc.
Anyway, if it is any inspiration to you, the Fiero "CAN" be improved to Porsche level handling or better.
I am sure the Fiero, with it's many engine possibilities, can also be more than competitive with the Porsche as far as acceleration is concerned.
Your biggest challenge however, will be to come up with brakes near that of the latest Porsches, they are probably the best available. This will cost a lot, I don't think there are any cheap ways to get that level of braking performance.
Anyway, I want to congratulate you on what sound like some very well thought out ideas and concepts. And I can already testify that building a high performance Fiero of any kind is exceptionally satisfying, I still get a healthy adrenaline rush every time I drive the 8shark Fiero. If you can build a "street" version with that level of performance, it will bring you an awful lot of pleasure.
Hey guys!!! Funny that this thread pops back up today cuz yesterday I just printed the whole thing for project reference material! Then I log on today and find out that it lives!
Gerald and red85gt - Glad you guys found the thread, and now that you have keep the good stuff coming. It's always nice to hear from people who have done or are doing similar things.
Bryce, how have you been old buddy? I'm just perky If you consider my "paper" developments progress there have been plenty, if you don't the ship is still stuck in the harbor.
All I have done on the actual car(s) is strip stuff. I have been so bogged down with customers' projects, and some of my other projects, that I haven't done much wrenching - YET!!! The weather is breaking and that gives me extra energy, some of which will be channeled into the supercar project.
I am going to pull all of the bodywork and the cradle from my 84 sometime soon so I can do some serious measuring, etc. Don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, or on PFF, before but I am planning to build two separate cars now. The first will be called the Lab Rat and will be used to work out all my ideas. After everything is sorted out I plan to build another, which will be the real thing. The reason for this is that I know it is going to take a good bit of trial and error to make all of my radical ideas work and I want to build a cleaner, more detailed, car after I know exactly what to do. The first car will be a little rougher around the edges, like a well-used racecar; while the second will be a polished show-n-goer.
I said allllll that to say that sometime this summer my 85 will get cut up and caged. To begin I am going to hang the factory bodywork back over the cage so I can start doing immediate testing. It has a Duke with Isuzu 5spd now, and I want to drive it before and after the cage with this motor/trans to document the results. I guess I should buy a G-Tech so that I have some type of hard data to confirm or refute my "seatadeepantsometer". I know G-Techs are not really accurate but it's better than pure subjective analysis. So first up, sometime this year, will be the roll cage and race seats to create a base upon which I can begin adding and subtracting to find my ideal setup.
As for new paper developments, I am now considering the Porsche tranny again, and a longitudinal layout. This within the STOCK wheelbase mind you. I was busy looking at other alternatives, and then they started posting build-up pics of Paul Hosler's racecar - with a SBC and 930 transaxle and nonstretched car! We've been sharing ideas and plans - great guy by the way - and I think I can make it work!
For suspension I am really leaning towards Corvette stuff for a few reasons. One, I have found the people/companies that can help me make it work. Two, there are really serious brake and suspension components readily available for virtually any level of performance I desire. Three, it's one of the most effective options out there. I am not as concerned with the price as much as what you get for that price, and the Vette suspension, and its aftermarket, pack a pretty serious wallop for the price. What I would like to find is someone who will carve the A-arms and uprights from billet instead of using the factory pieces. Reasons are it would allow me to make changes easier to fine-tune my chassis. I should be able to accomplish this because the Vette suspension has become very popular in traditional hot rodding, but the supply of parts is becoming harder to find. There is probably already someone making them, or planning to.
So now we have a 2000-2250lb car, with multi-point SCCA/NHRA spec cage, Vette-derivative suspension and brakes, 9K V8 and Porsche transaxle. Not too shabby eh?!
P.S. I don't claim to be even close to an aerodynamics engineer, but I couldn't help noticing when I had my gas tank out, how much the Fiero tunnel resembles the ones on F1 cars, it starts small at the front and smoothly increases in size towards the rear, exactly what is needed to increase downforce. All it needs is a proper intake and a few obstructions removed, and a way of smoothly diverting the airflow around the motor/transaxle, and it could be a very effective design. I would suggest leaving the radiator coolant pipes where they are, but building a new floor pan that is flat on the bottom, with all of the reinforcing ribs above it instead.
Of course, you would have to decide whether this design is worth the slight negative of having the gas tank in the front. I am not sure if the better weight distribution might not be worth more than the fact that the front weight might change as gas is consumed.
Hmmmm.... How about an 8 gallon tank in front and another near the trunk, with some sort of equalizing system? many race cars have a tank on each side of the driver, this would be similar in principle to that.
OMG, I have to stop now, you are making me itchy to start building another car, and I haven't even finished this one yet.
------------------ Gerald Storvik
http://www.8shark.com
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12:46 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
I have had a racing seat in my fiero a REAL circle track aluminum seat with leg and rib protectors on both sides. Install was pretty easy if you use the factory sliders. Just drill hoes in the seat to match the factory seat. Some washers and bolts and voila a NHRA and SCCA legal seat. For mounting the seat belts I was just going to bolt them to the rear fire wall with some BIG washers. Its triple walled there anyways. One thing I have to say is if yoou opt for the double rib protection you had better be 5'9" or shorter because you wont get in outher wise. Its a really TIGHT fit thats why I put my stock seat back in. After drivin for 9 hrs straight my left thigh got sore from rubbing the leg protector. Outher than that I loved how that seat feels but I recommend paying for a custom made seat. Better fit and more comfortable. As for suspension I plan on making all new tubular pieces so I can correct many of its desigh flaws. I also plan on putting alot more cage in my car then you seem to be planing. I am not going for light weight like I said in my outher post super light can hurn not help. I plan on having a super stiff frame you should see our camaro you can jack any corner you want and lift three wheels off the ground. check out bridgecityspeedway.com and look for bryan jhonson in street stock our car rocks!!
[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 04-16-2003).]
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03:00 AM
marcustre Member
Posts: 128 From: north florida Registered: Jan 2003
IT cost like $2500- 3000 for a tiptronic out of a 911 thats probably bare but say 5000 for everything. clutchless manual and the engine it mounted from front to back which is cool.
marcus
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10:25 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Since it was so nice out today I decided to pick with the 84. All I intended to do was remove the front fascia, spare tire well, and plastic inner fenders. The hood and fenders were already off. I did it all outside right where the car was sitting, and by the time I walked back in the garage to put the tools back in the box the whole car was stripped down to the metal, except for the door skins! Oh, and the right side lower quarter section, because I didn't feel like drilling the rivets. Fieros are so easy to tear apart!
The floor pans are just about perfect and rust-free, and the car hasn't been driven in ten years, so I assumed that this car hadn't rusted too bad - WRONG!!! The rear upper frame rails are basically gone in a few places, as well as some of the sheet metal. The lower frame rails seem to be in very good condition though. Thankfully, all the bad rust is in the areas that will be removed, so I am happy.
Now I begin taking measurements to see how my plans will work together. Then when I am sure that I have a solid plan, and when I order and receive the cage kit, the 85 will be disassembled. I may even mock the cage up in the 84 first before I start on the other car. I need to get my hands on an old busted Porsche transaxle for doing my mockups. It would be best to have the engine and transaxle in place before welding the cage in to make sure eveything clears.
I need to get a digital camera so I can share the process with you guys in real time.
perk
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04:19 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
I called Renegade Hybrids today and they emailed me the price list/fact sheets for their conversion kits and transaxles. To support the power and torque I plan to have I would need the four-speed 930 unit. The whole setup would be about $8000. I just can't see paying 8K for a four speed. The 915 5spd unit can only handle 500hp.
Please don't get caught on the price issue, this is about what the dollars purchase, not how many dollars it takes. I would have been willing to set my sights on that 20K Quaife tranny if it fulfilled the need, but it didn't. I am not saying that I have 20K in the budget for a tranny right now I am saying that I would make 8K or 20K the ultimate goal if it would satisfy my needs. The key here is to determine what the ideal setup is for the intended goals and work towards it.
In other words, if the Quaife really was my ultimate tranny I would use Getrags and whatever else I had to until I could purchase and install one. If the Porsche was the ticket I would use the lesser, cheaper, 914 unit until I was ready for the best one. I plan to increase the power over time, step by step, as the chassis develops and is ready for more. The key is to have things set up so that the upgrades are as much of a bolt-on operation as possible.
have you looked into the audi transaxles? i have heard that they are getrags and can handle around 500 horsepower (which you can beef up significantly b/c most of the ones i've seen are $100 and less)... also... does lenco make an applicable tranny? i've never driven a car with a lenco, but i have heard that those trannys are litterally bullet-proof and you can get 'em used for really cheap or new for like $10grand (i think)... altho i dont think they make a FWD tranny... but if they do make an applicable tranny, i know guys who use lenco's in their top-fueler drag cars... altho i'm not sure you'd want to pull the little bars to shift... but they are clutchless manuals... and they even have 6 speeds in reverse... hahaha.... that'd be fun... doin 150 in reverse...
anyways... how do you mount one of them porsche trannys in an un-stretched chassis? i've heard you couldnt do it with the audi tranny and its a few inches shorter than the porsche one... I wanted to mount an ls1 in my fiero longitudinally but didnt want to use the TH425 and didnt want to stretch it... if you dont mind i'd actually like to know more about mounting them in an unstretched chassis... you can email me or somethin so i dont hi-jack your thread, if you dont mind...
-DRye
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10:41 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Lenco transmissions are simply two speed planetary units that get stacked to produce as many ratios as you want. They are NOT clutchless manuals. They are individually shifted planetary gearsets. The highest top gear available in a Lenco is 1:1 BTW. http://www.lencoracing.com/
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To justify a 20+K tranny the rest of the car would have to match so that would require a 20+K motor. Maybe a twin-turbo N*.
Add to that the fact that the synchro-mesh, helical geared, tranny starts at $18,395 (no bellhousing, no shifter/cable, no clutch, no digital display, no dirveshaft extension tube, etc.)
You and Ben were two of the main ones that hung in there with me from the beginning (mid-engine drag racing 101) and pointed me in the right direction - you just can't leave me now man 
In memory of the family's, friend's and especially the 12 children of the Crew Member's of The Space Shuttle Columbia. February 1, 2003
