I called Renegade Hybrids today and they emailed me the price list/fact sheets for their conversion kits and transaxles. To support the power and torque I plan to have I would need the four-speed 930 unit. The whole setup would be about $8000. I just can't see paying 8K for a four speed. The 915 5spd unit can only handle 500hp.
Was this for a *built* 930 unit? I know the 930 is about the most durable tranny (that's easy to come by) for this because that's what all of the super-powered sandrails use. As far as the conversion kit (adapter plate and flywheel if you don't want to design your own), you may want to check Kennedy Engineered Products. I've got their kit for the Chevy 90* V6/V8 to VW (and some Porsche) trannies; they're pretty much the biggest adapter company I know of, perhaps with the exception of Advance Adapters. They may have a better price and perhaps different insight on what to use for a tranny.
Out of curiosity, why not a four speed? I mean, you'll have plenty of power; it seems like adding gears would be unnecessary and just add time for shifting. Of course we all know about keeping the engine in it's powerband...are you planning on a narrow powerband, and in what range? I would think that your biggest problem with the 930 is the gear ratios (not the number of gears), but there's a decent aftermarket. Oh yeah, that's another problem...when you bring up "Porsche" you can figure the price of the part just doubled, and if you say either "racing" or "heavy duty" in the same thought...price doubled yet again.
I know the 915 and 930 have been used with way more power than you're talking about, but with the kind of launches you're looking for...major tranny abuse is expected. Ideally I'd like to get a 915 for my VW; you can get them with a factory installed LSD and external cooling system! Of course, I'm talking about half the power you are in the long run, short term about 1/4.
If you decide what you're looking for, I can keep an eye out...I'm constantly searching ebay for porsche trannies.
Lastly, do you know what the power ratings are for the newer Porsche trannies? I know the GT2 made 460hp/460 ft.lbs. with a six speed tranny, external cooling, etc. with a 3000+ lb car. Actually...here... http://www.porsche.be/911/gt2/transmission/getriebe.htm
Only problem is, it's for a rear engine and it's so new I doubt many people know how/if it can be reversed for mid engine. Heh, you could get a reverse grind cam and the appropriate water pump, then just run the motor backwards, couldn't ya? Ugh, it's way too late to be thinking about this, my brain's scrambled! Also, there's the Boxster tranny, but it's only rated for about half as much power as the GT2 has...no flipping to worry about though.
Bryce 88 GT
[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 04-17-2003).]
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12:43 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Will: Perk: Why didn't the Quaife transaxle meet your requirements?...Mendeola? ...
Howdy Will. The Quaife is only rated for 450lbft. I want something stronger. I want to be able to beat the crap out of this car and not have in the back of my mind some weak link that I knew I had compromised on.
To its credit the 930 Porsche transaxle can handle 700+hp and is known for being a stout race unit. For my street going racecar it is missing fifth gear - I can't accept that. If I am gonna be rowing the gears I want enough to enjoy it.
I like the Mendeola stuff but again the one for me only has four forward gears, and is in the neighborhood of the Quaife pricewise at $16,500.
D-Ri2k4 haven't looked into the Audi yet, saw it mentioned somewhere on PFF though. The Lenco is definitely for front-engine/rear-drive RACERS. Even it would fit it wouldn't work cuz I am building a street-legal racecar, I need just a pinch of civility.
Bryce that's the reason for wanting 5th gear. In race situations I may never use it but on the street I will. Every four-speed I have ever had I find myself searching, in vain, for that last gear. This car is as much about going for a winding back road sprint as it is endulging in brutal competition.
The newer 5 and 6 speeds are the G-50 series. There are only a couple (G-5050 & G-5052) that are suitable, and I don't think they'll handle what the 930 will. They say don't bother with the 6spd and a V8. I think these trannies are much more $$$ too. Then again the trannies you're talking about may be much newer????
8K is for a built 930, with flipped ring and pinion, shortened bellhousing, and complete kit with adapter plate, clutch, shifter, etc. Renagade's LSD is and extra, $1200 by the way. I know I could reduce this somewhat with used parts, mixing and matching components, etc., but I really would want their built tranny eventually so I could feel free to properly abuse it. Whatever I could save it's still short a gear.
I'll leave that reverse grind cam for you to figure out
If I figure out what I am looking for I will let you know as soon as I get out of the cozy straight jacket and nice padded room.
Originally posted by Will: Lenco transmissions are simply two speed planetary units that get stacked to produce as many ratios as you want. They are NOT clutchless manuals. They are individually shifted planetary gearsets. The highest top gear available in a Lenco is 1:1 BTW. http://www.lencoracing.com/
hey... i thought they were clutch-less manuals... thats just what i remembered... but you're probably right... heh... the main thing i remember about the lenco is it has the kewl little bars you pull back to shift... guy i know has one in his El Camino... hehe... i've also seen them in camaros and novas... figured they were strictly front Front engine Rear drive cars tho...
-DRye
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07:06 PM
Apr 18th, 2003
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Well, I am making progress tearing things up anyway Yesterday and today I did more "demolition". I now have a clear view of the motor and transaxle because the trunk is sitting on the ground beside the car. I didn't remove the strut towers or any of the rusty metal between them and the firewall. The reasons I am stripping so much now is to have clearance to take precise measurements, and to prepare the way for the roll cage, which I plan to do this spring or summer. Plus, when I start mocking up the engine and trans I don't have to drop the cradle now. Easy access baby!
Things look very nice and clean without the trunk in the way. I am not going to go through the trouble of weighing everything I remove because there were lots of missing parts anyway. The final weight, and the weight distribution, is all I am interested in. Getting out there and actually wrenching, pounding, and sawing, on the car is a nice feeling after a long winter of staring at a "paper" car. This is giving me a real boost!
Now that I have this car stripped, I am reconsidering my plans to use it for just for measurements and then start the actual work on the 85. I will probably just keep the momentum going and start building with this car. Some of my plans are sure to change now that I have started on an actual car.
Since you mentioned using Corvette suspension parts anyway, have you considered checking into using a late model Corvette rear end/transaxle. Maybe the engine could be mounted directly to one of those, and they should handle plenty of torque and horsepower besides. (of course, that would end up being a longitudinal engine then, with a stretched chasis.)
------------------ Gerald Storvik
http://www.8shark.com
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09:34 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
I have decided to definitely keep going with the 84 now that I have it stripped. I have the trunk completely removed, along with all of the insulation from the rear firewall. Now I can do all of my measuring, etc. I have also made some other important decisions.
*One I have decided to try and get this car running this year. A friend is going to lend me a set of Vette wheels, and give me his old rotors, in a few weeks or so, and they're going on this car. I cam going to have the front rotors redrilled, and do the 6000/Cierra upright & 4wd S10 hub swap in back. The front rotors will be turned down to hubs to mount the Vette rotors. I have to get a set of C5 calipers too.
*Two I have decided to use a GM TH325 (early eighties Eldo/Toronado/Riv) and get the car running. It's gonna take me a while to find a transaxle that will fulfill my needs and I don't want this project sitting around collecting dust while I look. I know this transaxle is heavy, and isn't the optimal setup for handling, but it puts the engine in the position I want it and will give me an operational, dependable, car until I find what I need.
The biggest difference will be that the engine will be located further back than I plan to have it but I can keep the necessary space in front of it open for the future.
As for the weight concern, I have removed so much weight from the back of the car that it should help compensate for it. I know that I am placing more weight behind the axle centerline but that is a necessary temporary evil. It's easier for me to stay focused on a running, driveable, project.
There ya have it. I am going to pick up a cheap digital camera soon and start documenting my progress for my website, and I'll start an official build up thread here soon.
Also, if I can get the motor/trans in, the wheels on, and the cage welded up in time, and providing I have enough money left in the budget, I may try to take it to the 20th Anniversary Show. I remember reading that they used to ride the bare Fiero chassis around on the GM grounds while they were ironing out the wrinkles. I think it would be kind of neat to have my mule's chassis there in the same condition!
Originally posted by perkidelic: I cam going to have the front rotors redrilled, and do the 6000/Cierra upright & 4wd S10 hub swap in back. The front rotors will be turned down to hubs to mount the Vette rotors. I have to get a set of C5 calipers too.
Do you mean the 5x4.75" bolt circle swap on Bubba Joe's website?
I found out more about that. The S10 mounting bolt circle is different than the 5x115 hub's mounting circle. That means that the holes in the S10 bearing will have to be slotted or drilled way oversize in order to work, in addition to the mods to the hub carrier to fit the S10 bearing's shoulder. Overall, I don't think the S10 bearing is such a good idea.
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07:59 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
I'll look into it. You're talking about the holes that mount the hub to the upright - correct? I thought at first that you were referring to the bolt circle for the wheel. Can they be redrilled as opposed to slotting?
I'll look into it. You're talking about the holes that mount the hub to the upright - correct? I thought at first that you were referring to the bolt circle for the wheel. Can they be redrilled as opposed to slotting?
Yeah, the bolts that hold the cartridge to the upright. They're both 3 bolts, but the S10 circle is off significantly from the A-body circle. The holes in the S10 bearing would have to be drilled larger or slotted. Since the mounting plate is triangular, you don't have the area to drill a circle in a new orientation. You might drill the hub carrier, but you'd also have to do some spot facing because that would be on the as-cast surface. I'm not sure how practical that would be.
You shouldn't modify the bearing anyway. If you dump a bearing in the middle of nowhere, you don't want to have to pay the local machine shop to put a new one in for you.
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12:31 PM
D-Ri2k4 Member
Posts: 282 From: Florence (Hicksville), Texas Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Will:The holes in the S10 bearing would have to be drilled larger or slotted. Since the mounting plate is triangular, you don't have the area to drill a circle in a new orientation. You might drill the hub carrier, but you'd also have to do some spot facing because that would be on the as-cast surface. I'm not sure how practical that would be.
You shouldn't modify the bearing anyway. If you dump a bearing in the middle of nowhere, you don't want to have to pay the local machine shop to put a new one in for you.
By the description you have given I would probably elect to slot the holes, as long as it wouldn't weaken the part significantly. I still have to get a good look at all the parts and see the actual differences before I make a decision.
For what I am going to be using this car for I am not too worried about getting stranded cuz I would probably just call a flatbed to get it home anyway. It is basically going to be a racecar with plates.
Or you could have new rear uprights made that accepts the s-10 hubs and allows a custom rear suspension to be used. Or you could just adapt C5 corvette parts. While this would cost more than the S-10 stuff, it should be strong enough and all the major parts would be as readily available as they would be to any Corvette owner. You might want to find a copy of Pontiac Performance Plus and look at all the things they did to the car that you can either adapt to your car, or at least get some inspiration from.
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07:44 AM
Apr 28th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Just checking up on things...any progress perk? I'm finally getting my ass in gear for some of my own projects, and it sounds like you've been busy too, yay for us.
Bryce 88 GT
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10:30 PM
Apr 29th, 2003
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Just tinkering away. Haven't done any more actual work cuz I have been working on the rear suspension design. Have a company that is doing the design (computer) to convert the rear suspension to SLA. Waiting on the Vette wheels for measurements. I think I am going to have them do the design for the front crossmember (C4 or C5 suspension), and put the whole car in the system and tune it to work together. When it's all done it should be a true state-of-the-art race suspension.
Other than that, I have just been working on some of the final design elements, parts lists, etc., so I can put together a sponsorship package.
I'm sure you've already seen it (it's on the newsstands), but Hot Rod magazine has an article about installing a C5 front end and C4 rear end into an old 'vette frame. The company that does it seems to have top notch quality, you may want to check out that article and pick up some pointers if you haven't already.
Hmm..things on my plate right now are just starting to build up. I'm working on a center console to finally take care of the void created when I removed the stock one in favor of a sub box. I finally bought some speakers to finish upgrading the stereo (still using stock 4x10s up front...minus their foam surrounds ), that will be a one nighter though so no biggie. I'm also going to build some new brackets for my fog lights so I can finally install a new turn signal lense, that ought to look pretty slick. I just bought a tranny to get rebuilt; if all goes well I'll have the parts bought within a week and the tranny shipped to me by the end of May (fairly optimistic knowing my dad, who is rebuilding it). The goal is to have it installed by mid-June, put some new tires on, and get a fresh alignment in preparation for racing at the 20th.
The thing I'm most excited about is getting started on my dual throttle body intake (like Cooter's). I got the second throttle body...after buying two on the internet with no delivery, I finally bought one in person at the fiero factory for CHEAPER than both of the others I paid for. I guess it's a good thing I had to buy three $15 parts instead of three $500 parts. I'm going to install the dynotuner (poorly supported piggyback ECM) very soon in hopes that I can get it to work well. I've also got a wideband O2 sensor board to help with tuning that is begging for me to buy it an O2 sensor, but I can't find one!!! I've got a circuit (called Megasquirt...very very cool) that I can control the fuel with if all else fails, but I don't think I've got the guts to try it out on my daily driver!
Last, but certainly not least, I've been beginning to round up parts for the 88 coupe racecar. Lately we've got the 88 V6 engine mount (a bugger to track down!) and a set of 3.94 gears. The next thing that's way up high on the list is to get brake parts...we need to buy a steel line kit to replace the stuff on the car, and fix the old clutch line. The car was being prepared for the crusher and the brake and clutch lines were cut to get the master cylinders off...has made our lives very difficult to save that person fifteen minutes!!! I suppose it's ok because we saved the car from the crusher and it's on its way to being a whole new car. Along with getting the brake lines, I plan on designing a brake setup that uses Wilwood Dynalite II calipers (< 3 lbs. each) with 9-10"ish lightweight rotors that will fit within a 13" wheel. From the nosing around I did while at the Fiero Factory, the most difficult part of this will be getting an aftermarket master cylinder setup to bolt into the Fiero. The bracket that the pedals bolt to now is pretty convoluted, and we'll basically have to add a couple of additional members to mount the pedals to. On top of researching all of the brakes, I also have to create some documentation to detail all of the steps to install the 96 3.4 DOHC into our 88 cradle (my cohort knows little about the whole thing and on dial up it'd take him forever to figure it out himself).
Hmm..this became more of a journal entry than an answer to your questions. Heh, hope you don't mind me typing what I'm thinking.
Perhaps next time you're staring at your chassis you'll take a look at the pedal mounts. If you can see any easy way to bolt a top mount pedal/master cylinder assembly, I'm all ears! Not many people have their cars torn apart enough to see that area with any clarity (including myself) so I took some pictures at the Fiero Factory. OH! Speaking of taking pictures there, I took pictures of all the "cross sectioned" cars I could find; there were several cars with front ends, rear ends, corners, etc. cut off so that you could see how the metal was layered and sort of see how thick the material was. If you're interested, I could post them here (or a new thread perhaps)...good info for those doing major chassis mods.
Bryce 88 GT
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12:41 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Yeah Bryce, share those photos! Where ever you post 'em is fine with me. I still remember a lot of it from when I cut the other car up, but it would be nice to see it again, and be able to see it whenever I need to. When I do the cage it would really come in handy to know what I am getting ready to drill through, cut out, or weld to.
No problem with thinking "out loud" here. It gets the point across. Sounds like you're making pretty good progress.
I have seen the mag article on the Vette suspension. I have another guy who is just as serious that I was planning to go with, until I found the company that is doing the design work. Vette suspension is very popular with a type of hot rod called "Pro Touring", so there are some companies out there who really have it down pat. Not just for looks, or ego gratification either, these guys are serious about performance.
The whole car is definitely going in the system now to be tuned as a package. Designing the front crossmember is a piece of cake after it's all sorted out.
Originally posted by Nashco: Perhaps next time you're staring at your chassis you'll take a look at the pedal mounts. If you can see any easy way to bolt a top mount pedal/master cylinder assembly, I'm all ears! Not many people have their cars torn apart enough to see that area with any clarity
Well, you found the right guy cuz mine is pretty naked right now. Just one question: what do you mean by "top mount"???
Thought I'd bump this to the top, didn't realize I missed your question perk, sorry.
Top mounts are pedals that, amazingly enough, mount from the top of the assembly. They're referred to as different names by different companies; for example, Wilwood calls them "swing mount" and Tilton calls them "overhung" pedals. I haven't spent enough time looking at the car, but from my recollection I'll either need to mount to the firewall or top-mount to a custom bracket. I don't think there's room for floor mounts with a clutch pedal, too narrow.
I've been plugging away on stuff lately while I have the time...I'm actually working 40 hour weeks, which is not going to last long. Prototype center console is almost done, should have my wideband O2 fully functional this week (waiting for a connector in the mail and I'm good to go!), bought all the parts for my tranny and dad's got it torn down waiting for the parts to arrive, bought some calipers for the race car, and got some header flanges for the racecar. Lots of other stuff in the works that should be done soon, you know how it is.
Any progress on your stuff perk?
Bryce 88 GT *edit: messed up the link
[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 05-26-2003).]
Here is a tip for you perk. All the new 300M's and sebrings use a longnitudal style 4 or maybe 5 speed auto trans axle. The engine is mounted normally driving the front wheels. Very compact setup and the 300M already makes 265 HP and around 300 Ft/Lbs torqure. Would make a very nice tranny if electronics arent to complicated. Light weight too since it is aluminum Here is a pic of how the motor is mounted.
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01:43 AM
fieromadman Member
Posts: 2217 From: Oconomowoc WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
Im going to throw out an idea for you. Since this is a race car, you wont need the passenger seat anymore, right? Why not mount a Fuel cell there. it would counter balance the car. I meant there is all this extra stuff on the drivers side, plus the weight of yourself. You could mount it wherever you want in the passenger area. Also I love the idea of the tunnel used to route air from the front to the engine compartment. You could ahve this big ass sheetmetal tunnel flowing from the radiator to the back. Sure the air that passes through the radiator will be hot, but it will have time to cool before it gets all the way back. If not, you could modify an intercooler and put it towards the rear of the tunnel to cool the air more. Then I would seal off the decklid and maybe even gasket off the top of the trunk and make another tunnel from the rear of the engine compartment out the back. Kinda like this:
It would be awsome to see some aerodynamic changes that would bring this car into the supercar relem.
Thats about all that i can think of right now. Im going to have to agree with what someone said about the corevette suspension not being right for the Fiero. If i were to do any major suspension changes to either of my Fieros i wouldnt put anything from another car into it. For god sakes, look at what happened when GM put parts from other cars in the 84-87's . I would go with some version of Helds suspension
Good luck on your quest to bring the Fiero to the latest standards!
------------------ REMEMBER: If you cant win the race you loose the argument!!
Hey Bryce, just more research here. After I got the car stripped down I started doing some measuring and planning. One of the main things I had to look at is what I want from the car, and where it fits into my business plans. There are some big changes coming which will make the project much more radical.
I am going back to a stretched wheelbase and have decided to bite the bullet and run the Porsche transaxle. Remember my initial threads about a 108" wheelbase car? That's where I am going. I went around in a big circle to end up back where I started but now I am sure that is the right direction for me cuz I have seriously considered every alternative.
Some of the things that made me want to build a stock wheelbase car was the desire to keep as much of the original essence of the Fiero in my car. I have determined that it is more important to me to meet my performance goals than to build the ultimate Fiero - I would rather have what I consider to be the ultimate CAR. I realized that I have to be really happy with this car when it is "finished", or all that work will be for not. I am basing it on a Fiero because I believe it is the most logical choice.
Hey red85gt, I actually considered the Chrysler transaxle too. My outrageous hp/torque goals are the problem. I know the GM TH325/425 transaxles could be built to handle the torque, as well as the Porsche units. I don't want to get into developing a transaxle - I want to develop the car. Thanks for the tip though.
fieromadman - it is a racecar, but it must be a street-driven racecar. A part of the thrill is that it can be driven around on public roads legally. To really get the most out of it I have to have a passenger seat! I mean what fun would it be if I can't share the experience with people - in real time! All that is to say that the tank can't be there, cuz I wanna take people for rides. Since I am going with a stretched wheelbase now I can actually move the tank behind the cabin and run air down the middle! The suspension will use a few components from other cars but will be a dedicated design - not just transplanted Vette stuff. The control arms (front and rear) will most likely be all custom parts - either tubular or billet. The front uprights may be C5 units. The brakes will be C5 brakes and eventually aftermarket replacements for a C5.
Again the reason for searching for as many "off the shelf" parts as possible is to avoid engineering a thousand new parts, and concentrate on building a car.
Well, you brought it up the car this time, I'm not taking the blame.
So perk, what's the latest engine, suspension, wheelbase, etc. you're considering? It seems like you change your mind every three months, so I figure you're about due for a big change in design. If you don't just pick something and stick with it regardless of your latest whim, you may never finish (dare I say start? ) this project.
Er...I mean...bump.
Bryce 88 GT
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10:39 PM
Jul 26th, 2003
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
LOL! I had to do a lot of soul searching, a lot of "mind changing" and eventually I was able to find myself and my cars!
There were two cars in head! That's why I kept switching - sometimes it was one, sometimes the other, sometimes a garbled mess of a mix of the two (say that three times as fast as you can!).
On one hand, I love these little buggers! Every time I try to walk away from them I come back to them more fascinated than the last. That side of my brain wants to build an ultimate (93.4") Fiero.
On the other hand, I have a vision, if you will, for an ultimate street-legal race car - hence the stretched wb, tube chassis concoctions. It's really not a Fiero, but it embodies a lot of Fiero characteristics; so my love for the Fiero kept pushing me to make it walk like a duck, talk like a duck - but it ain't no duck!
Hope you're getting my point - there really is one in the midst of my silliness.
The solution? Build a 93.4" Fiero now and keep simmering the "ultimate car" idea on the R&D/design back burners, then use the lessons, technology, and connections learned and earned to build that "other hand" car in the future.
As for all of the other choices I had to make, they revealed themselves by simple process of elimination.
Engine - I am using a SBC to set up, and get it running - because I have one and they're cheap and easy to deal with. Allows me to keep the money where I need it for now.
The final choice, however, will be an LS1. It's lightweight, trick, powerful, and efficient - perfect! It's mainly that 6-bolt aluminum block, fantastic 13* heads, and the EFI, that settled the debate. It's a hard package to beat IMO, and the aftermarket (though still kind of pricey) is growing fast and furiously.
Suspension is gonna be specially (CAD) designed for the car. The company that is doing it hopped on board as a sponsor. They're waiting for numbers from me as soon as I finish my research. SLA at at four corners, with coil-overs. Will be designed to sit the car about 3" lower.
I would be building the car by now but we have been working overtime on building a new shop. Don't worry - no more switching, I promise! My sponsors wouldn't like that!
perk
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10:43 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Yeah, it's an extension on the Toronado transaxle theme. I am going to mount a convential front/rear transmission to the motor and sit the whole chabang in the car reversed, with the transmission extending forward between the seats. From there a tranfer unit sends it back to a short differential mounted similar to where the Toronado diff would be. Same basic layout from there to the wheels.
The advantage of my idea is that I can push the engine a little further ahead for a little better balance/weight distribution. Plus, I have more weight towards the front because of the transmission. The biggest disadvantage is that I will have to at least partially move the tank forward. A necessary evil IMO. I want the ability to run stronger, less rare, transmissions.
I am using a TH350 to set the car up, but my ultimate goal is for a Richmond 6spd. That's about three grand in the future though. I chose the TH350, again, because I have one; and because it is a common size which will allow me to relatively easily change to something different. I plan to drop the motor and tran in someday soon to start on the mounts, etc. Then comes the roll cage.
As for the transfer unit, at first I was going to use a v-drive type unit from the marine world, but then decided to make my own. I am going to mock the case up in wood and sand or investment cast in in aluminum. The gears will likely be two heavy duty transmission gears. I plan to take a ride to my tranny guy soon to see what he recommends. Hopefully I will bring a couple gears home too. I can turn the shafts myself and have them welded up. Same for the three driveshafts, and one intermediate shaft, that will be needed.