Well, I went to go pick up the fiero from sears since the alignment was done. I got home and the WRX was in the driveway so I pulled the fiero on the side of the road and moved the WRX. I drove my fiero to and from sears mind you. So I went to the end of my street and made a u-turn as I was about 80% done with the U turn I got on it a bit. Just as the tires broke loose I heard BAMMMM! I heard a loud clunk and saw smoke. I shut the car off and put it in park. Well its 9:30pm so its too dark to see what happend but the ATF all over the ground wasnt good. So I went up the street and got my floor jack. Lifted the car up and the pass wheel was locked solid. Me and a few people pushed the car up the street to my house and into the garage. I took the wheel off and this is what I found:

Part missing was still in the trans

Seen here

Twisted my front engine mount but lucky for me, the engine block wasnt damaged

But, it did damage the end of the trans. Good thing is that it is replaceable w/o pulling the trans

removed

So here is the big question. Why did it break? Nothing was loose as far as motor/trans mounts. I didnt notice or hear any binding while building it or driving it.
The axle is a stock fiero manual trans piece. I am pretty sure it is out of my GT from b4 the swap but not sure. Think it was just ready to die or what? I really need to figure this one out.

Well seems they tend to break George had one break on his just before teh 20th so maybe its just a week link after a certain age ?

This sure doesn't look like a very robust part design for the halfshaft output on the trans case. What trans did this come off of???

Its the stock 4T60e trans from the 91 Deville I bought for a engine swap donor.

I just measured between the output on the pass and drivers sides and they are in the exact same spot from front to rear on both sides. So I dont think it was caused by binding. But I definetly dont want this to happen again. If I had been at any speed when it broke and jammed the right wheel I would have spun out of control. I hope it was just the axle was on its way out and not something else. The axle is from the LEFT side fiero manual trans and was installed on the pass side (like its suppose to be with this swap).

If the engine is not level this could be your problem take a carpenters level and place it across the valve cover (if you can )to see if it is level side to side and front to back of engine that did happen to a car I built before.

It's hard to tell from the pictures as to what failed on the CV Joint itself that could have caused that failure. I've failed that joint on my car, but it's been the tripod roller to the shaft that failured at the shaft interface to the roller setup (didn't like too many 5 grand hole shots on dry pavement). That isn't the case on your assembly.

Really makes me wonder which failed first the trans part, or the Tri-pod assembly????

Look's like it could have been ALOT worse... Look's like you have it all under control though...

good Luck and let us know what you find out!

SmoothGT!!

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Said Hulki, "You had to look at the Fiero not as
a car, but as a process."

SmoothFieroGT@Yahoo.com

I had a tripod come apart just like that on Raptor. Smoke came up from the vents from the CV lube. Havent I seen that there are 2 diff drive axles available? I seem to recall that theres the 'tripod' type and a 'double U-Joint type'. I cant find anything on the U-joint ones. Mine was from a start so my tranny case didnt crack like yours.

Which way did you make the Uturn? If you went left, maybe the rear squatted so much and it compressed the axle to a point that it binded and something had to give. Make sure none of the gears lost a tooth. I had a similar axle proble. Had to have my driver side shortened half an inch. Luckily I didn't break anything. Just got a thumping on hard turns.

It looks like yout axle might be too short. It almost seems like it has to be for it to pull apart like that. Especially if all your engine/trans mounts are still in good shape.

It looks like the tranny might have been broken after the shaft pulled out and got wedged against the motor mount.

Hey are you OK man?........

No really you are starting to scare me

Thats the same setup you have on my car. Build in the same place, and I have made many(I mean alot)u-turns that brought my car around sideways after them with lots of smoke(tire that is) with out any proplems (you would be the first to know if I did). So I would have to asume that you just had a part failure.

let me know what you find out!!

Jesse

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: If the engine is not level this could be your problem take a carpenters level and place it across the valve cover (if you can )to see if it is level side to side and front to back of engine that did happen to a car I built before.

The pass side sets 1/2 inch LOWER than the drivers side per The Fiero Factory's instructions.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I was turning LEFT during the U turn.

It would appear that the halfshaft on that side is just a little too long, which forced it into the cracked part you posted. The reason I make this comment is I had somewhat a similar failure on a Getrag after installing 'aftermarket' needle bearing seals (for stock Fiero) in the trans case without checking for halfshaft clearance through the range of suspension travel (the needle bearing parts are a little thicker that stock seals and I'm using custom length axles due to type conversion). My failure occurred in a tight left turn just as you described, but instead of the trans case giving way, I sheared a tooth off of second gear when it jammed up. Fix was rebuilding another trans and not using the aftermarket needle bearing (not enough clearance to halfshaft), as I didn't want to play aroung getting another made to order (shorter) custom Mark Williams Racing splined axle @ $350.

Hope that any momentary lockup didn't result in internal trans damage for you, if that's what happened, spike loads can do some nasty stuff.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 08-02-2003).]

A thought.
In the pictures, I do not see the metal support bracket the factory uses from the block to the end housing on the trans.
When I worked in the trans shop, I saw 2 of these broken on cars that had the bracket removed (to remove the exhaust manifold?).

Gene

You can see the black bracket in the 2nd and 3rd pic. The engine is mounted in 5 places.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 08-02-2003).]

That's what happens when you spin one tire. Pull the snap ring off and slide the differential out, I bet the cross pin is broken or overheated.

quote I definetly dont want this to happen again.

Call Phantom Grip and order an LSD, or keep the car in a straight line when you nail the throttle.

I have a bone stock Formula. When I step on the gas it feels I power is only applied on the passenger side. It swerves a little. When I let off the gas sometimes it seems that it also swerves a little.

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: That's what happens when you spin one tire. Pull the snap ring off and slide the differential out, I bet the cross pin is broken or overheated. Call Phantom Grip and order an LSD, or keep the car in a straight line when you nail the throttle.

I've snapped an inner CV ring when I was doing turns and burns in the Ciera GT/SC one day. The tripod stayed in and the axle only came out of the tripod when I was coming down the hill going to work. 2 hours work for a $1 snap ring and a $20 boot.

I shoot for an axle length that will position the tripod 2/3's into the CV when the control arm is flat. That way it won't bottom out. I also check that when the arm is down, it won't come out.

Hey Steve, what did you do buddy???

Are you sure that is the correct axle???
Mine is a drivers side manual axle and I've put it on the passenger side. But mine doesn't have the tricordal bearing, could it be they slipped you the wrong axle.
Got mine at Autozone, about $70.00
Heres a pic, hope you can make it out....

Sorry about the breakage,I think I'm deffinatly going to work on a torque strut so I don't break anything.
Dragon1/Brian

Well here is the latest pics:

These pieces in the tranny, tell me I need a new one.

I know this pic is really hard to tell but this is whats behind the VSS end cover in my first post. The screw driver is pointed at a C clip that is half gone. Also notice that the splined shaft is touching the pin that the spider gears attach to. Not good

I'll go pick up the new axel tomorrow.

AUGH! Oh NO! I was hoping for that call..."I'm drivin' it! I'm drivin' it!!!". Here's one last question... I know we're concerned with the horizontal angle of the drive axles, but what about the cradle? there's no chance the engine/tranny is crooked, is there? I mean like the timing cover side closer to the firewall than the torque converter? Would that be considered the lateral alignment of the drivetrain? It could make one side more suceptable to breakage than the other, right?

quote Originally posted by USFiero: AUGH! Oh NO! I was hoping for that call..."I'm drivin' it! I'm drivin' it!!!". Here's one last question... I know we're concerned with the horizontal angle of the drive axles, but what about the cradle? there's no chance the engine/tranny is crooked, is there? I mean like the timing cover side closer to the firewall than the torque converter? Would that be considered the lateral alignment of the drivetrain? It could make one side more suceptable to breakage than the other, right?

Well I measured both tranny output shafts and they are in the exact same location on both sides of the cradle. I am going to make my front engine mount 1/2 taller and raise the side engine mounts as well. I am gonna try to get the engine as near level from left to right as possible. Gonna take a few trys to get the right height and not have the alt touch the decklid when then engine torques over. Been a while since you been here John, why not come over tomorrow?

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 08-03-2003).]

Dude, I'd rather be busting my knuckles and having fun than working ten days in a row. I don't think my manager realized what she's done to me. I need to get some $$$ to spend on my Fiero...

Okay, I'm interested in the technical problem here. In installing and locating the trans in the cradle, how does one insure that the drive shafts are the correct length? And where does suspension travel come in here any different than say, the stock Cadillac travel? Steve is using an 88 cradle, albeit with coil overs. How much consideration does the adjustable height of these struts affect the position and length of the driveshafts? I'm not understanding why turning left put so much strain on the spider, unless it was already too tight. Without a turning mechanism wouldn't the transmission and engine be happier back there with less stress? Could the alignment have pinched anything? Did the car dogtrack at all, indicating they dailed in one side too far (even if the toe was correct)?

Well, it looks like it was the tranny, not the axle that cause the problem. Will know for sure wensday.

Did you blow the final drive? It's not uncommon but I've never seen it take out the side cover like that.

Keep us posted.

I thought you had a big shop to fabricate with? I wouldn't expect you have to move stuff out of the driveway?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I thought you had a big shop to fabricate with? I wouldn't expect you have to move stuff out of the driveway?

What part of "I went to go pick up the fiero from sears since the alignment was done. I got home and the WRX was in the driveway" Did you not understand?
Really Johnny go slap some bondo on your mustang.

quote Well, it looks like it was the tranny, not the axle that cause the problem.

I tried to tell you it wasn't an axle problem. Get an LSD or quit doing donuts.

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: I tried to tell you it wasn't an axle problem. Get an LSD or quit doing donuts.

LOL I wasnt doing donuts! I'll give you a call later Jon.

Steven

bv: Hey, I thought it was you who wanted the feud to continue? What I meant was, shouldn't you have a big shop?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: bv: Hey, I thought it was you who wanted the feud to continue? What I meant was, shouldn't you have a big shop?

Would you like to come by for a visit? Maybe you can drive your mustang (since you dont even have a fiero) or maybe you can bring one of your bone stock low 14 sec 5.0 mustangs. Do you need to get some work done at the shop? Many on this forum have been to the shop or to my house. Either way, let me know.

His shop has a driveway. Duh. "Big"? What qualifies as "big'? One bay? Two? Four? Twenty? All I'll say is that Steve is doing significant work himself. A lot of folks might have the money to buy the hardware and rent the property, but it's the ability and desire that drive the business. Surviving requires good business skills and let's face it, luck. What's in YOUR wallet?

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: So here is the big question. Why did it break? Nothing was loose as far as motor/trans mounts. I didnt notice or hear any binding while building it or driving it.

BV, When I did my fabrication for the '96 DOHC and the 4T60E, I retained the bracket that mounts to the end of the trans (4 bolts). At the time I determined that they added support between the trans and the motor and reinforced the strength of the case with that heavy bracket. I modified the orginal '87 from mount to connect with that bracket and used bolts to be able to remove the engine w/o removing the whole bracket assembly. I know your car is a 4.9 but did it originally use that bracket, and if so can you modify it to put it back in? G/L

Just got back from the tranny shop. Here is the deal. The tranny is "FUBAR". Even the case is broken. I am having a hardend "cage" and some other stuff done to it. They are also putting in some "booster valve" to improve the tranny's upshift and downshift response and firmness. I looked at the Phantom Grip LSD but I just dont have the budget for it this close to moving.
They are building me a new one, with 3.33 (up front 2.73) final drive so if you are reading this Rockcrawl, will I have to send my MEMCAL back to you?

Should have the car back Tuesday.

Steven

Steve, keep us up on this. The best education is figuring out what goes wrong and understanding how to fix it! Sorry I haven't been over, been working lots (six days a week and more) and I'm taking the oldest daughter to college Monday. The wife started 'projects' that I have to finish now since she will be having surgery next month. Thanks Honey!

<BUMP>

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John DuRette
Black 85 SE, undergoing work as we speak!