3800 Series II L67 shortblock -- stock 3800 Series II L36 heads -- mildly ported 3800 Series II L36 Camaro intake
Stock cams, rockers, springs, etc. Stock 87 Buick Grand National turbocharger running 10 lbs of boost on 93 octane fuel and 15 psi on 105 race gas additive (Klotz Hitrate). Stock 91 Dodge Spirit R/T intercooler (for now). This car is setup for street/strip duty and is beat on daily. In fact, I have put over 6,000 miles on this current combo in the last 2 months. Using a 95 4T60-E from a bonneville with a stock rebuild, the only mods include modified 1-2, and 2-3 accumulators, and an adjustible modulator.
Drivability? Excellent, very little turbo lag, very quiet especially on the highway you can't even hear the engine over the road noise. Almost like that turbo was made for a 3800. Ran a 13.4 @ 103 in the 1/4 untuned on a hot day on pump gas. Recently raced a friend's cutlass that turned a 12.9 and beat him by 2 cars so I know it will definately run 12s. (just haven't had a chance to get to the track)
I can tell you that it needs a bigger intercooler so I am in the process of rectifing that situation now. Should allow me to run 13 or 14lbs of boost on pump gas.
------------------ 1987 Fiero Coupe 3800 Series II Intercooled Turbo 1987 Trans Am GTA 5.7L Superram 4L60-E 1985 Fiero SE 2.8 (soon to have an L36)
Exhaust: Port matched manifolds, Custom 2 1/2" mandral-bent exhaust system , Supertrapp Stainless Steel 4A Muffer
Calibration: Stock engine control module with custom PROM for turbo
Transmission: Stock TH125-C 3 speed Automatic Transmission with performance shift kit and valve bodies.
Cost? Much more than I want for the car itself.
Thoughts? It's nice. Provides a subtle little boost (no pun intended) in acceleration. It's not silly fast like my V8 conversion, but it gets out of its own way. The car is a toy. Has never seen snow and might have seen rain last in 1994 or so? Let's just say it's pampered.
Are there cheaper ways to go fast? Yeah. But back in 1995 when I undertook this project, things like 4.9L V8s and 3800SCs really weren't common. It was good for its day, and I have enjoyed it ever since.
Yes, I would love to see all of the turbo setups on the forum! That includes the V8 turbos, post those pics.
MMMMM....Boost. PPPSSSSHHHH!!!
------------------ '87GT 5" Drop on 17's, Can you say "Bagged"? -on air- Custom-MUCH! '95 Eclipse GSX, 5spd, Black, T-25, Intake, Exhaust, MBC, '99 front end
That's a nice setup! I was waiting for you to chime in since I knew that your car was up for sale.
How much boost are you running? Was there any specific reason you went with this conversion? (Quality, etc.)
Thanks. Running 6-8 lbs. of boost right now. Nothing crazy. My engine guy said the bottom end should take twice that without even breaking a sweat, but I never got around to adjusting it (and getting all of the fuel pressure regulators, bigger injectors, piggy back ECUs, etc. that it would have entailed).
Why did I go with this specific turbo kit? Proximity played a big part. With Fiero Conversions being in Windsor, I could easily shoot across the river and check them out.
Why did I do the rest of the motor? Temporary insanity? I dunno - <shrug> - This car was my baby and I was never going to get rid of it, and therefore, I didn't want to take any shortcuts.
Hartz
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04:57 PM
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
I understand why you went mild, then. It'd be too much money to turn it up even more.
I'd like to see some boosted v8's as well.
Some of the people on here are running some really innovative setups (no pun intended). I'd like to see them all and make this thread a reference point for future, or current, members with any questions.
Anyone with turbo theory, tips, advice can also pitch in.
Not sure if I should be butting in here or not... But...
I have about the cheapest turbo setup I think one could manage (for now). I'm bolting on my turbo to a stock internal 88 block. I'm just doing this for now while I build up my other motor with the stronger internals. I like to do it this way so I can get all the quirks worked out, and the tweaking done before experimenting on a freshly rebuilt motor.
95' 3.4l DOHC Hypereutectic pistons ARP Rod bolts ARP main studs Ported and polished combustion chambers Stock lower intake manifold with custom upper 1st Gen Eclipse BOV 87 Grand National boost solenoid 38#/hr injectors Haltech E6K stand alone engine management SVO intercooler with modified inlet Garrett T3 turbo with T04e '46' trim compressor wheel Custom 304 stainless headers and crossover Bosch LSU-1 Wideband O2 sensor Flowmaster 40 series muffler in stock location ClutchNet six puck sprung hub clutch Torsen diff w/ FWD extension tube
I drive the car daily (more than my M3). It runs and drives like a factory car. The only indication of the swap is the clutch. You can slip it, but you have to know how much or you will get some chatter. I have been running ~11psi of boost and ran 13.3 @ 104+ at Milan for the 20th. I have solved my boost issues and now run ~14psi. I will post the dragstrip results as soon as I run it again. As far as turbo response, I assume you mean lag. I can build full boost at 3000 RPM. At 2500 RPM, I can build 8psi. While not instantaneous like a SBC, the power builds smooth and linear. I have no comlaints. I kinda like the ramp in of power. It's intoxicating. The car is setup for all around use. I run -1 degree camber all around with 0.10" toe out in the front and 0.10" toe in at the rear. The car is taken to the road course, autocross and dragstrip.
SCCA FIERO: What hp numbers are you expecting with your setup? What SCCA class are you running in? Are you experiencing any restriction in your system from the stock Fiero intake plenum?
Jncomutt: Good idea. I can see why you would want to work out the bugs on your old motor. Are you going with the 2.8L still? How much boost are you planning to run? What GM car did the knock sensor come from?
Matt Hawkins: I saw your car at Milan. DAMN!! That is a clean setup. Where did you find the boost problem? How efficient is your intercooler where it is mounted? What kind of intercooler is it?
That is a ton of questions...WHEW!! It's just nice to see some great turbocharged fieros.
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10:16 PM
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
Did you choose to turbo the 3.8L because of Supercharger limitations??
That is hella fast for a daily driver. Dayum!
What intercooler will you be using next??
Actually, I choose to turbo the 3800II for a number of reasons, the most of which was wallet limitations. I had obtained the turbo from trading parts, bought the intake for $25, and got the heads from the junkyard for free since they were on a scap motor. There is nothing wrong with the SC 3800II but I have always looked at engines with a SC with the standpoint that they have too many strikes against them from the get-go. One of the problems is obviously cost. I plan to get this car deep into the 11s some day and it is going to cost me more money in pulleys and possibly an intercooler if I want to run those times consistantly rather than just using a turbo. Besides that, a supercharger requires engine power to turn it so not only are you giving up some % of the power you make just to turn it, but it will also cost me in gas mileage in the long run as well. In my opinion, the turbo just give me more flexibilty when it comes to modding this car. SPERCO makes some excellent intercoolers which will fit between the cradle and body right under the A/C compressor and starter for about $300-$400. The one I am using now is very small but it fits nicely there and seems to work very well given it's size.
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12:02 AM
Philphine Member
Posts: 6136 From: louisville,ky. usa Registered: Feb 2000
what kind of compression numbers are y'all deciding on to end up at around 10lbs of boost (think as a average)? is there a way to work compression requirements out in a range from say 5-15lbs of boost? pump gas still ok? intercooler needed for those levels? water injection maybe as an extra or instead of ic? stuff i've been trying to work out.
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12:21 AM
vortecfiero Member
Posts: 996 From: Toronto Area, Canada Registered: Feb 2002
95 L35 4300 vortec v6 custom made exhaust manifolds complete syclone intake (ZR9), syclone air to water intercooler chipped syclone ECM cradle mods for non dogbone and v8 style motor mounts oil cooler zetner brake up grade 5 spoke 16 " cavalier rims 225 50 16 rubber 5 spd early gt body mods
------------------ 84 Fiero Turbo Vortec 4300 Phantom GT L35 block Syclone Intake and ECM T04B H3 Turbo http://www.cardomain.com/id/vortecfiero "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 07-25-2003).]
The engine is a built 2.8, bored .04 over, everything is ported. The turbo is a Garrett T-3 .63in/.48ex, 2.5" madrel bent exhaust, Magnaflow straight through muffler. Blackwood intercooler from a saab 900, 7" spal pusher fan mounted on top, 2.25" mandrel bent intercooler tubing. Custom made blow-off valve/pop-off valve. Everything for the turbo system was custom made by me.
On 91 or 92 octane gas I run 8-10 psi, most of the time I run 6-8psi boost. 201hp/265lbs at 6psi boost,(at the rear wheels) driveablility is great, I got 25mpg on the trip to the 20th putting 2k miles on it with no problems. From a standing start boost builds at around 2200rpm, pulls like a v-8 after that.
what kind of compression numbers are y'all deciding on to end up at around 10lbs of boost (think as a average)? is there a way to work compression requirements out in a range from say 5-15lbs of boost?
I am running about 8.5:1 compression on my 3800 with 10lbs of boost on 93 octane. I will be able to run a little more (probably up to 15 or so) on pump gas with a good intercooler. You really can't work out compression requirements when we are talking about different engines and turbos. Say I run 10 lbs of boost on my engine with my turbo, if I run 10lbs of boost on the same engine with a bigger turbo (say a TE63) I would be moving more air at the same boost. Also, your induction to the turbo plays a big part in how hard your turbo has to work, not to mention what cam you have and the condition of your exhaust system. The harder the turbo has to work, the higher the intake temps will be the less boost you can run. I helped my friend put a huge front mount intercooler on his 87 Turbo Regal and he is running a TE62 or 63 (i can't remember) and he is only able to run about 18lbs of boost on pump 93 octane without detonation problems and his intake temps after the IC are only about 5-10 degrees than ambient. There comes a point where you have to consider how much air you are moving into the cylinder and what you are raising you dynamic compression ratio to. It is quite possible that dynamic compression ratio is just as important as intake temps when it comes to how much boost you can run on such and such octane fuel. This is where some people don't understand that race gas in a turbo or SC car will allow you to run more boost and timing and therefore you can make the car much faster in the 1/4 (sometimes 2 or 3 seconds) just by changing the fuel from 93 to 116 or something.
quote
pump gas still ok? intercooler needed for those levels? water injection maybe as an extra or instead of ic? stuff i've been trying to work out.
If you are using a turbo, you really need some kind of an intercooler, even if it is a small one. In addition to the temp thrown into the air stream by the compressing of the air, the turbo heat also makes it in there and you need to get rid of some of it. You can use water injection but it is not that great because it takes up space and doesn't burn. In extreme situations, the water present will actually raise the dynamic compression ratio because it is taking up space that could otherwise be occupied by air. If you are going to inject, use alcohol or better yet, propane. Ultimately tho, an intercooler is going to make your car more consistant and it is one less thing that you have to refill.
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12:47 PM
turbo86se Member
Posts: 2098 From: Carroll Valley, PA Registered: Oct 1999
Ok I'll go ahead and throw in my .02, I have a MillerWoods Stage One system on my 86SE. I'm on my second auto tranny, since the guy I bought it from abused it, and have replaced the stock manifolds with ported and polished manifolds, and they're coated inside and out with Jet Hot's ceramic coating. Other than that, the engine is 100% stock. I'm running 8lbs of boost and have never had a turbo-related problem. Early this year I added a Greddy Type S BOV, and has been much more responsive. It sounds cool too when you dump the gas under boost.
Future mods will be an open-air filter, and a Saab 900 IC, both of which I currently have, just not installed.
Is it fast? Oh yeah, and takes many people by surprise, but it's much slower than my daily driver '03 WRX, that thing just launches!!
Ok I'll go ahead and throw in my .02, I have a MillerWoods Stage One system on my 86SE. I'm on my second auto tranny, since the guy I bought it from abused it, and have replaced the stock manifolds with ported and polished manifolds, and they're coated inside and out with Jet Hot's ceramic coating. Other than that, the engine is 100% stock. I'm running 8lbs of boost and have never had a turbo-related problem. Early this year I added a Greddy Type S BOV, and has been much more responsive. It sounds cool too when you dump the gas under boost.
Future mods will be an open-air filter, and a Saab 900 IC, both of which I currently have, just not installed.
Is it fast? Oh yeah, and takes many people by surprise, but it's much slower than my daily driver '03 WRX, that thing just launches!! 7
wow.. i drive an 04 WRX as a demo and would think that a turbo 2.8 would smoke it. My fiero with nitrous would surely clean my WRX. 75shot on a 2.8 I can roll with f-bodies to about 90 or so (beofre it blew the head gaskets) car was pretty much bone stock. even 60 ft times for WRx's are about the same as a well driven Fiero(banditbalz sub 2 sec 60ft.) Fastest stock WRX's run mid 14's. My Nitrous car was running high 13's all day long
JM
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT Northstar 86 SE autocrosser in progress SAVE THE SHAUN!!!
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02:48 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jul 26th, 2003
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
Well, I am running a series I 3800 V6 (originally s/c, with custom intake manifold, custom turbo setup and custom friggin eeverything else!
Ill put more pics when I get them, as my car is BACK in garage, cause my stage 3 clutch is SLIPPING! for real! haha. and well, we are changin the intake setup to LS1 tbody, and an PWR air-water intercooler setup! shoudl be CRAZY when it is done.
wow.. i drive an 04 WRX as a demo and would think that a turbo 2.8 would smoke it. My fiero with nitrous would surely clean my WRX. 75shot on a 2.8 I can roll with f-bodies to about 90 or so (beofre it blew the head gaskets) car was pretty much bone stock. even 60 ft times for WRx's are about the same as a well driven Fiero(banditbalz sub 2 sec 60ft.) Fastest stock WRX's run mid 14's. My Nitrous car was running high 13's all day long
JM
I hear ya Jonathon, maybe it's just that I don't drive my turbo'd fiero hard. The new tranny only has a few thousand miles on it and I really don't want to replace it again. If I does, it's all good, I'll leave it with Rockcrawl to install a 4-spd auto. Not an excuse for the slow times on the Fiero, but the auto tranny shifts slow between gears. Ask anyone who's driven it, like Jen (Fierochic88) or her b/f Matt, or Ken (kslish). I guess I'm just used to driving the rex everyday, and plenty of power whenever I need it, but then again so does my Fiero. For me, the turbo'd Fiero my not be the fastest, sures hell doesn't lauch like Jen's 3.4, but it's fast enough for me!
I think I saw a turbo'd car at the 20th with an air-to-liquid intercooler mounted in the stock air cleaner area. Does anyone have any pics or details on this? Thanks...
------------------ 1987 GT www.fierosound.com 2002/2003 World of Wheels Winner & Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner
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12:00 PM
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
What about fuel delivery? What did you do for extra fuel under boost?
What kind of chips are all of you running? When running a turbocharged motor, is there a way to burn a chip to help make power delivery as flat as possible?
Great discussion!! Let's keep it going!
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08:17 PM
jubjub2m6 Member
Posts: 1403 From: idaho, soon cali most likely Registered: Nov 2001
What about fuel delivery? What did you do for extra fuel under boost?
What kind of chips are all of you running? When running a turbocharged motor, is there a way to burn a chip to help make power delivery as flat as possible?
Great discussion!! Let's keep it going!
I am using a Walbro 307 fuel pump. It is supposed to support up to 700 hp and I have been running it for 3+ years now and no problems.
I am using a 95 Bonneville PCM reprogrammed to handle the turbo engine. I am also using a 3.0" delco mass air flow sensor between the turbo and air filter. Runs great on the street but I have an intermittent stalling problem when I let off the gas after boost at slow speeds; moving the MAF close to the throttle body should solve the problem but I must wait on 3" mandrel bent J bend before I can try that. Other than that, the power band is extremely flat and doesn't seem to drop off at all.
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08:59 PM
Jul 27th, 2003
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
I was one of the few that purchased RSM supercharger kits. It came with a Rotrex (Danish made) supercharger that initially ran around 9-10psi on my stock Fiero. (Pictures on my webpage along with the full story.)
I ran it hard at the drag track and autocross. Ran best of 14.5 in the quarter, and did pretty good in the autocross. Burned out the clutch last year and this year burned the engine up. It's all in the tuning. Currently rebuilding the engine and am going to switch to a turbo. SC is too small for the increase displacement. I'm selling the Rotrex to pay for the rebuild parts, so the Rotrex will continue in another Fiero hopefully.
Would anyone here recommend water injection for cooling?
If you are going to spray water in, you might as well use alcohol. at least the alcohol will cool better as well as burn.
quote
What kind of intercoolers would you use?
If you are not running the exhaust in front of the engine there are some nice sperco air-air intercoolers that will fit there in front of the cradle. add an air deflector and you will be all set.
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11:09 PM
Philphine Member
Posts: 6136 From: louisville,ky. usa Registered: Feb 2000
My setup: - an early '90's Audi 5000 turbo (same as used in Porsches) - a mid-80's GM knock sensor / computer (sensor screwed into the block, computer in the trunk - can't even see it it's so small) - high pressure fuel injectors - adjustable fuel regulator - map II sensor - blow off valve - boost gauge and plumbing
That's about it. Total cost: $1900 CDN installed.
I am running about 7 psi right now. I am getting custom exhaust this week (hopefully) so that should give me another couple PSI (will probably have to turn it back down to 8 w/o an intercooler or water injection).
I don't remember too many details (like what pressure the injectors are, or what type of GM the knock sensor is from) but can find out if anyone is interested. I had someone install this for me and educate me on it at the time but now I don't remember everything.
Do you need an intercooler or water injection to prevent knocking? No. You can run up to 8 psi or so with the knock sensor and a stock (or near stock) engine. It can only retard the timing so much, though. After that, water injection will take me safely to 10 psi or so.
I do have other mods, though. I am running around 8.5:1 compression and have a performance cam. The engine was bored and stroked to 3.1 with dished pistons. I am also using Sprint headers and currently have no cat.
I am very happy with the power and hope to squeeze a few more horses out of it with the new exhaust.
How fast is it? I haven't taken it to a track yet but here's an idea. I raced a brand new (or nearly new) Mustang GT on Friday from about 20 kph on (around 13 mph). No worries - it was a 4 lane road (one way) and no traffic from the lights. By the time we hit about 75 mph (120 kph) I had about 2 car lenghts on him. When we reached the next set of lights, the guy wouldn't even look at me.
Needless to say, I'm happy with what I'm getting out of it right now.
------------------
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10:48 AM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
I almost forgot. I am also running custom ignition and different spark plugs (Delco just from a different application). Definintely need that big spark.
