Hi all, I am new to the group. I have an 85 that I am putting in a 4.9 and converting to a Solo 1 racer (not a road car). The project has wrapped up (literaly!) for the winter. There is a HUGE amount of rusted frame to be repaired, so to this end I have got my self a used MIG welder & will be going to the local tech college to learn how to use it (properly). Anyhoo, I saw in another post a picture of the Factory five chassis.... you can geuss the way my mind went.. MIG welder....pile of tubing...hmmmmmmm. I have searched all over the web and can't find any pictures or diagrams of a Fiero space frame, anyone seen one? Given that this is very much "Armchair racing" at the moment, would anyone like to throw out some design ideas? As I have nothing left to do in the evenings until the spring, I thought it might be fun to play with the idea. Are there any shareware (or bought) 3D design programs out there that you don't have to be a Phd to use? Otherwise I will use Adobe Photoshop (Well, it must be ok, G.M. used it to do the Aztec.....) In anticipation, Griff
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11:26 AM
PFF
System Bot
BtotheB Member
Posts: 2581 From: Peterborough, Ontario Registered: Dec 2001
Welcome to the forum, a fellow Ontarian at that. Where are you located?
I can't help you with pictures or diagrams of a space frame, but I'm sure someone here will.
R Runner on the forum here built himself an IMSA tube chassis Fiero, thats the kind of thing I'd like to do eventually but that'll be well in the future. If you haven't seen any threads on his car, I suggest you check it out, that would be quite the project.
As for 3D design programs, I'm in my last year as a Mechanical engineer and the programs we're using in school are Autodesk Inventor (same company that does AutoCAD) and SolidWorks. I'd suggest either of them instead of Photoshop, I wouldn't want to attempt any 3D design on that!
Brad
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11:39 AM
FinoGT3800 Member
Posts: 89 From: Goose Creek, SC, USA Registered: Jun 2003
And check out this site for info on tube chassis. Buy Ron Champion's book and you'll have all the plans you need for a lotus 7 replica. http://www.championmotorcars.com/
------------------ 88 4cyl auto Fiero, AC, sunroof "And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick
I stuck a couple pics that I used of the "space frame" chassis on my site. I'll leave them up at least until the next time I update it. I am working on a resources section full of the info I have dug up researching for my projects.
I have several pictures of the tube chassis that I started with and modified (heavily). I don't have dimentions summarized yet, but someday. I started with a tube frame that was built off of a set of (I believe) original IMSA prints. I took careful measurements (to build a model to test torsional rigidity) then modified the rear for a longitudinaly mounted engine. If you want more details (boring pages worth of details), I can e-mail two years of monthly summaries. If you are still hungry for more, give me a call and we can talk details and ideas. I have several threads posted. Search for "IMSA" or "Fiero SS".
Some Pictures:
If you want to start with a spaceframe and weld in a functional tube "chassis" talk to Doug Chase. He's on the forum. Also Lee Miller has one he built, but I would have to dig for his number (not on the forum) and the one I have is about 5 years old. He may not be at that address anymore. Let me know if I can help.
Hey Perk........ Just showing off again! Did you catch the Track Day post?
------------------ Paul From right to left: Quick, Fast, and INSANE!
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09:44 AM
Nov 30th, 2003
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Thanks Paul, I missed the Track Day thread completely, and forgot to go back and find the monthly report. Sounds great and looks like you're having a lot of fun! A wife, a baby, and a race car - ever consider taking up juggling, you might be pretty good
Ok, that is such a good looking chassis,now I'm inspired! I will take a trip to the hobby shop for Balsa wood & glue, I feel a 3D model coming on! Is there any advantage in adding a couple of inches to the wheelbase? Would anyone be to horror struck if I said I would be using the existing rear frame and front x member to hang the suspension from (this is for solo, not 140mph through Eau Rouge!).My two boys can always change it when it's their $! I just think it would be the quickest,easyest way to get it rolling. It may not handle like a "real" race car, but I don't see that it would be a death trap either! (especialy after seeing that "monster" on ebay!). By the way, a long time ago when I was young....... back in the UK my buddy and I had a rear engine car with a fibreglass chassis, yup, not a single spec of metal (should have sold it to the X-men). Do a web search for Clan Crusader. We won the South west speed championship in it. Heck of a car, they even passed crash testing for type aproval.The designer, Paul Hausser (ex Lotus) was going to do us a Kevlar one for the next year, but we did not have the cash! it was unbelievably expensive back then. Paul had some amazing stories about Colin Chapman. his favorite Chapman quote was "If it dosn't break, it's to heavy".(ask Ronnie Peterson's Widow). Did you know the last person to see Mr Chapman alive was Mr DeLorean......... Griff.
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08:39 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 3rd, 2003
Tom Slick Member
Posts: 4342 From: Alvarado, TX Registered: May 2003
As far as 3d design goes. I would use autocad and stop there. A wireframe model should be all you need.
If you want to do some FEA work, get a ProEngineer/Mechanica trial CD. It's very easy to use. You could learn how to do basic design in an afternoon. FEA work is tough to do right though.
If you're going through all the trouble to make a tube chassis, you might as well optimize the suspension while you're at it and not use the existing crossmemebers. I am planning on bolting on an 88 rear for now to my tubeframe to keep initial costs down however.
I don't know about solo 1 but I know in solo 2 that you want the wheelbase as short as possible. The advantage to a longer wheelbase is better high speed stability.
The wood 3d model is a good idea. We used dowels from home depot and did a 1:1 for the formula car to make sure the driver would fit in the cockpit.
Although learning how to mig is good, I would try to find an experienced welder and talk him into doing it for beer and hoagies. Sometimes with mig, you can't tell if you don't have pentration and you don't want to find out the hard way.
man.. if i had the patience to make a tube chassis.. (and if the stang wasn't taking up the floor).. I'd just build a one off.. get some fiberglass, and make up something new! Ooh.. the possibilities.. gullwings!
Thanks for the input so far. Howard, you are right about the welding. I was only learning to fix the rust myself, Then I got this frame obsession thing. What do you think the weight of yours should come out at? I like the idea of a 1:1 wooden scale mock up. As for the Johnnyk's one off body,good idea, but I can't stand the smell of that much fibreglass and resin anymore! Griff.
As it was snowing all weekend,so with nothing else to do I made tube frame, model,wood #1. It's not quite right yet. amongst other things it needs some more torsional stiffness, especialy in the front end (I ran out of wood) The only measurements I had to go by where wheelbase,track and photo's(the fiero is under a tarp & a foot of snow so i did not feel like measuring!). But it's only a first rough outline. The black tube represents 2'x2' sq, white 1'x'1 sq and red 1 3/4'round. In further models I will try other tube layouts, but unless I hear otherwise I think this is the size of tube and basic layout. Any other ideas, comments??? Griff.
As it was snowing all weekend,so with nothing else to do I made tube frame, model,wood #1. It's not quite right yet. amongst other things it needs some more torsional stiffness, especialy in the front end (I ran out of wood) The only measurements I had to go by where wheelbase,track and photo's(the fiero is under a tarp & a foot of snow so i did not feel like measuring!). But it's only a first rough outline. The black tube represents 2'x2' sq, white 1'x'1 sq and red 1 3/4'round. In further models I will try other tube layouts, but unless I hear otherwise I think this is the size of tube and basic layout. Any other ideas, comments??? Griff.
Sweet rims man! LOL
------------------ Yeah, I have a cowl induction hood - with NON FUNCTIONAL GAUGES!! HELL YEAH - FieroRice
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09:42 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
My goal on the car is 1500lbs wet. The other people working on the car are more optimistic and want it down to 1200. I think we will end up somewhere in the middle.
I dont like where your side impact beams are. It looks like you went out of your way to untriangulate.
I also dont like the rear pilar supports. You dont want to tie a tube into the middle of another tube. You want it going into a node. I would try to integrate those into your rear struts if youre running a chapman strut in the back.Otherwise id run it to the rear of the frame or make a power node in the back and elimate the rear box.
If youre keeping that rear box, I would eliminate the gusset type tubes and just run a full diaganal.
I would start thinking about load paths coming from a suspension before doing rev b.
Im not going to comment on your front box.
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11:05 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 15th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Looks like a good start! Like Howard said, you want your tubes to come to a common node. There are several places where you've got tubes intersecting other tubes in the middle of nowhere; an example of what this means is where your door bars intersect the A and B pillar. Only one point (the lower rear) meets at a "node" while the others are a few inches (relatively) from the node. By making the tubes all intersect at common points, rigidity will improve greatly. There are a few great books on chassis design that would be helpful, you may have some already. If you want to know more, just let us know!
Bryce 88 GT
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01:47 AM
fst4rsc Member
Posts: 98 From: Farmington, NM Registered: Oct 2003
If you are seriously looking at designing a chassis for your car, I would try a program called pro-desktop. It is a cheaper version of the pro-engineer/pro-mechanica software suite for those who can't afford $20,000. Take 1 credit hour at the local community college, buy it for $150 bucks (student version) and never show up to class.
This program w/o at least 1GHz, 512meg ram, 64 meg+ 3d video is just sick. If you know autocad, you are far worse off than a complete beginner. It's a fast learning curve though.
Edit: Added system requirements.
[This message has been edited by Azriel (edited 12-15-2003).]
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05:23 PM
R Runner Member
Posts: 3684 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
Thanks for the interest! I know it's far from perfect....! As I said, no real measurments or even a drawing, I just started glueing sticks! I hope to eventualy come up with a version that will work, and gets the thumbs up from you guys! I have put some books & software on my santa list. Bubbajoe had an interesting suggestion, get the fiero dragster frame from Jegs and modify it. At the very least it would give the multi point roll cage. I wonder what the weight is? might call them... Anyway, I'm of on vacation to the U.K. until the new year. A politically incorect Merry CHRISTMAS and Happy new Year to all ! Griff, p.s. I must find out what software Red Green uses,maybe that's whats missing, DUCT TAPE!!
[This message has been edited by dagriff (edited 12-15-2003).]
Did you catch the Track Day post?
