Which has more potential?

Even though the Cosworth is from 1976 , I am still very interested in it... especially in a turbo form.I even saw this: http://www.8shark.com/12.htm

The quad 4 is newer, and I think the quad 4 would bolt right up to the Hm-282 in my Formula, but which one is more advanced?

I am also looking for opinions on how easy either one could be upgraded.

quote Originally posted by intlcutlass: Which has more potential? Even though the Cosworth is from 1976 , I am still very interested in it... especially in a turbo form.I even saw this: http://www.8shark.com/12.htm The quad 4 is newer, and I think the quad 4 would bolt right up to the Hm-282 in my Formula, but which one is more advanced? I am also looking for opinions on how easy either one could be upgraded.

well there is 2 versions of q4 one has 180hp the other190hp but i had a friend who had one and was always poppin head gaskets the q4 is fuel injected the cosworth probly isnt and both would need adapters to mount to ur fiero trans the q4 would need rewierin the cosworth would be unwierin cause it probly dosnt have an ecm cosworth would be an easy install compared to q4 the q4 aldo u can install it with its factory trans and the axles will fit well good luck decidin out and how much hp and tq does the cosworth put out stock that be fun to know well good luck keep the work posted

------------------
fastbackboy
email:gtrfiero@hotmail.com

"q4 aldo u can install it with its factory trans and the axles "

I thought the Quad would bolt right up to my trans??? My car is an 88 stick. Am I wrong on this?

So far as I know, the Quad 4's are basically junk engines.

Some guys like them but the GM dealer will tell you they make big bucks on Quad 4 repairs.

Now the Cosworth engine.......

If you have the skills to do the install, that is one awesome little motor, and made to have the s...t kicked out of it on a regular basis.

I'd go with the Cosworth if I had the choice. It isn't just more HP it is the torque curve and the max rpm's involved. One of those engines in good shape will be smokin' in your Fiero.

------------------
Arn Brown, 1985 Fiero GT, 15.474 ET stock
Mods underway.

What about bryson doing the 400+ quad....?

When you say they are junk, is it do to longevity?

My dad's Quad 4 Cutlass had 215,000 miles on it before it blew the head gasket. Man, that was a nice little car...

I've known 4 people that had quad 4 grand ams blow head gasket with rather low mileage.. and 2 of them were @ 30,000. One of them at 30,000 was my moms cost $600? to repair. No one around here would touch a quad 4 but my dad found a guy and he charged $600. Said if your replacing the head gasket, you might as well replace everything else cause its not far behind.

------------------
88 5spd Modified 3800 Series II SC Formula
Modifications 2004 - Intercooler | 2.8 pulley | 1 inch drop | Interior | 17 inch wheels

The quad always sounded as if it was plauged with problems, and because of what I want to do (high proformance engine similar to what Bryson did), I knew some of that already. The Cosworth sounds like it might be easier to moddify.

Anyone else have any opinions?

Bryson, any thoughts?
How about the guy from 8 shark?

I stand by what I said.

Ask your dealership service advisor. He'll tell you if he knows his stuff.

Sure some engines go the distance, but on average the Quad 4 is a problem engine.

Look at the Cosworth racing history. Pretty solid.

My wife had an Oldsmobile with a quad 4. After several trips to the dealer to get the engine fixed we finally got rid of the car after only owning it for 18 months. You couldn’t pay me to put a quad 4 in my car.

My $.02 worth

------------------
- 86 Fiero GT, 4 spd.

I once pondered this same Idea. I looked around on e-bay and found some good deals(relativley speaking) on the cosworth engine. This engine origanally came with F.I.. The small computer that controlled it was riddled with problems. Most coswoth Vega owners did a swap to either a 4 barrel,(hard to find intake), or dual 2 barrell Weber carbs. The engine is rated somewhere between 150-200 hp stock. Some massaging by the right person could maybe yield 250-300 in a radical setup. Turbo this engine you could see 400 hp easy. I've been told that the cosworth is a very durable engine. Could proboly handle whatever you throw at it. Maybe not a turbo, but Nos. Could be interesting combo. I don't know of any companies that sell rebuild kits for the cosworth, Maybe you could piece some stuff together over time. Good luck finding one.....keep us posted..........Erockrocket
p.s. I rode in a 76 cosworth vega with a five speed. it was a total sleeper. Quick and very surprising. Would love to own one.

The parts issue is a real issue.

The Quad 4 you can build, like the guys doing the 400+ one. There isn't much left stock on that engine, but the parts are plentiful. (By the way, no criticism of that project intended)

If you are staying closer to stock parts, the Cosworth is a better performer alway round. If you want to do a radical rebuild though, the availability of compatible parts could be an issue. You might want to check availablity on even routine parts.

Prolly not fair to compare Bryson's quad 4 with a production one. He is using all the best parts and O'ringed the heads etc. etc.
I owned two Grand Am's with the quad 4 in them, a 88 and a 91. Both lost head gaskets (under warranty) at around 30K.
Some people had good luck with them, I did not.........Paul

Dodge had a 2.2 Cosworth up to 440 hp (twin turbo). Thats with the financial backing of dodge. Now thats not the "Vega"(GM), but it's "basicly" the same.

GM had the Quad 4 up to 607 hp (single turbo) in Jim Fuelings Cutlass Supreme (looks a little like my Cutlass)

Getting to that kinda power has been done, but I wonder which one would be easier and less financially devistating.

Basicly I'm still undecided.....I want a in line four thats a screemer.

[This message has been edited by intlcutlass (edited 12-23-2003).]

I didn't know the cosworth could put out that much HP. There is one just down the street for sale. I think it is #1500 something. He is asking $4500.00 for it.

I got a line on a Cosworth 4cyl. Cost? Borrowing a truck to get out into the middle of the feild and dragging it out.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: I got a line on a Cosworth 4cyl. Cost? Borrowing a truck to get out into the middle of the feild and dragging it out.

What????

I got a Cosworth Vega. It has some nice power and all but it turns on way up by redline sort of like a turbo.

Early Quad 4's had head gasket problems but the later renames dual cam engines are fine. The cosworth is a collector car engine and not much of a performance engine vs todays engines. Remember it is a vega bottom end with 1970's tech.
You might think Ecotech. Slap a dealer supercharger on and see 200 HP right off. You are going to see big things from this engine!

Yeah... My friend's cousin has a half-wrecked 74(?) Cosworth Vega sitting out at the farm. Was running fine until his
uncle lost it in a corner, and scrubed half the rear-end off. He told me I could have it if I went out and got it.

But I don't have a car to put it in, so I see no reason to make the trip right now; It's been sitting for at least 10
years, so a few more shouldn't hurt it. It'd need a tear-down/rebuild anyway...

The only caveat is that the cousin seems to think it's got a v8 in it now, although he swears the original motor is
lying around somewhere. But he admits that he's never actually gone to check.

And no, I would NOT be willing to get it and sell it. I would only take it off his hands if I expected to use it myself

However, if he decides to clean house (so to speak), I'll certainly let him know people are willing to buy it.

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 12-23-2003).]

Quad4 Vs. Cosworth Vega. Interesting comoparison.

I of course am baised toward the Quad4. Tell you what I know about it. Many Quad 4's built that I have listed here, have not survived the head gasket ordeal. This is due to a problem's with the block's design, a mis-stamped headgasket, and combustion chamber cracks witch caused detonation that ate the headgaskets. These symptoms were most common with Vin "A" HO models
Block Part #:
22535788 87-88 Vin "D"
22534033 87-88 Vin "D"
22538061 89 Vin "D"
22538062 89 Vin "D"
22539326 90 Vin "A" (HO) and Vin "D"
22545442 90 Vin "A" (HO) and Vin "D"
24570377 91 Vin "A" (HO) and Vin "D"
Unfortunatly, Almost all 180 and 190 horsepower HO models fall into this category. Except the 92's
After 91 the headgasket problem slowed down some, Especially after MANY headgasket failures under warranty.
No matter what the case. I HIGHLY reccomend rebuilding the top end of ANY Quad 4 before installing it into a Fiero. Use of a graphite head gasket and clean NEW headbolts and the highest octane gas available will ensure that it lasts for a long time and through alot of beatings. These engines don't fail easily unless the head gasket goes. I would say that an old high mileage Quad 4 with a new head gasket is better then a low mileage Q4 with a old gasket, and any Quad4 with the origional head bolts after a new gasket is doomed. There are a few things you can expect to see when you go into a Quad 4, When you clean the head and combustion chambers, you will probably notice cracks in the chambers. Most of the time it goes from a valve seat to the one ajacent to it. most often its from intake to exhaust. And frequently you will see it going from the valve seat to the spark plug hole. This contributes to the stripping of the threads on the sparkplug hole. However most of these cracks do nothing. The ones that cause trouble are the ones that crack in such a way that they start to cause detonation. You should always have the cracks welded before they cause these problems.

As for how the Quad 4 swaps as compared to the Cosworth Vega? Ease wise I'd say they are close. The Quad4 with its transmission just have to be mounted to a Fiero cradle including custom fabricated mounts. Then needs to be connected up and heavily re-wired. The Vega motor needs completley custom mounts, with an adaptor plate, and a flywheel thats compatible. What it makes up for in electrical simplicity it looses in custom fabrication of parts. You will also not find many that can help out. (with exception to 8shark)

Ok, im done now.

Edit: I shoulda read the Question. You never asked about the reliability of a stock Q4. You only wanted to know witch has more potential, and witch is more advanced. To that, I think the Q4 is better.
And No, it won't bolt up to your 282, its got its own bellhousing. But, the Q4 HO usually comes with its own matching 282 that will bolt up to your Formula.
As for upgrades, check out https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/040182.html You will see more then just a turbo being added.

------------------

84 Indy Quad 4
88 Silver GT 5 SP

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 12-23-2003).]

If your going to adapt a cosworth vega engien why not go for a SR20Det out of a Nissan Pulsar AWD. 210 HP standard and easy to up to 400 HP with a bigger turbo and larger intercooler. Do some more mods and 600 HP is quite feasible out of them little beasts. Is quite a few 600 HP ones running around on the street out here.

------------------

'Bout time we heard a voice of sanity. I don't think Bryson would build a Q4 if he expected to lose a head gasket in 10,000 miles. The Q4 was designed when GM was still figuring out how to make aluminum heads work. They revised the design over time, and in typical GM fashion, when they got it right, they stopped making it. You obviously don't shy away from Fieros because the early ones had problems, do you?
As mentioned, the Q4 has a different bellhousing than the Fiero engines, but it comes with its own version of the Getrag with matching bellhousing. Other than the bellhousing and gearing, the Q4 getrag is identical to the MG2.
The Q4 will take some custom work to install. The Cosworth will take a LOT of custom work to install.

The Nissan SR20DE transverse 2WD gearboxes are made of paper mache. I wouldn't want one. If you're willing to go Japanese, use a Mitsubishi 4G63... Much stronger transmission and just as much power potential.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

4G63, plenty of power/potential for power. But I think those transmissions are pretty bad, I know alot of people with DSM's that need a transmission because either the differential broke, or second gear grinds horribly. Of course, the broken differential could have been avoided. What ever happened to our frend on the forum that was putting a 4G63 in? I think the name was biohazard or something to that effect?

quote Originally posted by Will: The Nissan SR20DE transverse 2WD gearboxes are made of paper mache. I wouldn't want one. If you're willing to go Japanese, use a Mitsubishi 4G63... Much stronger transmission and just as much power potential.

Who said anything about 2WD transmissions? The AWD Pulsar was the donor I mentioned. On a power to weight ratio they are quicker than Subaru WRX's. They are certainly not weak either. Australia is full of super high HP SR20s and they transmissions hold up just fine.

I was surprised to see the question on the Forum! I've owned CV's for almost 25 years. Bought my first Fiero a couple of years ago after seeing 8Shark start his project, mine's an 88GT. I'll try to answer as many questions as I can. Number one, if you're interested in CV's, go to www.cosworthvega.com for some information covering the entire car.
And now the facts, very limited production, a total of 3508 over two years, 75 & 76. Very limited horsepower in stock trim, 110 net and not much low end torque. A performance design turned into an emissions test, the original target was 180 HP in '72. The aluminum block (linerless like todays Porsche and Mercedes) is the weakest link. The stock bottom end (forged crank and pistons) is good for approx. 8000RPM where oiling becomes questionable with the stock pump. The valve train is virtually bullet proof mechanically to 10,000RPM. Bendix analog FI, actually quite dependable, practically all problems related to connectors which a good cleaning cures. In 2.0L form a very streetable 170-180HP available with minor mods, the most helpful, a free flowing exhaust, the stock system worked as good as a cork. With reworked cam sprockets, power comes on around 3000RPM and pulls past 7500. The hot setup for the street is the longer stock Vega stroke (2.3L), either a stock Vega cast crank or custom billet, gobs more low end torque. Never saw a four barrel on one but several converted to dual Webers in an attempt to make up for the exhaust and emissiom cam timing. A good 2.3L will give 220-240HP depending on C.R. A turbo CV has been running around Campbell, CA for a while producing over 400HP @ 24# boost, a carefully assembled basically stock engine.

Now for the rest of the story. Parts are not plentiful although once the engines are built they are quite reliable. Depending on your model year, there is almost enough room (84-87) and hacksaw time (88). You need to trim the right hand shock tower some to clear the distibutor drive on the 84-87. On the 88 you also need to trim the right hand tower but it's needed to clear the intake cam sprocket, there is not enough room for the distributor drive, enter a crankfire setup. I don't know if you are able to keep the stock coil springs on the earlier models but on the 88 it time for coil overs. You do need an adpator to mount to the transaxle. Archie custom drilled mine. You have to decide if you want to keep the CV stock starter location, backside in a Fiero, in which case, like 8Shark, you need to remove some transaxle material for the starter and some block material to clear the RH axle. Or the V8 location on the front side, the transaxle stays stock but you also need to remove block material on the front side to clear the starter as well as the backside to clear the axle. And then there's the matter of having enough room for an air cleaner.......Mines in, the car runs but I need to limit engine movement. Unlike 8Shark's car where it's used for autocrossing only and is rigidly mounted to the cradle, mine's a street car and the engine vibration needs to be dampened. I'm also fabbing the exhaust. Gee, I forgot to mention the custom engine mounts and not being able to have A/C in Bakersfield! I really love this engine, it just wasn't one of my better ideas to put it in a Fiero for the street.....oh, did I also mention having to reverse the direction of the exhaust header.......still I can't wait to put it on the road! Hope this answered your questions!

Dick

First of all I wouldnt take much advice from a GM parts guy, GM mechanics no diddly squat about their own cars. I have a 1992 W41 Quad in my Fiero now for ower 9 years and have never had a head gasket problem yett. It is extremely crucial that you install the head gasket properly and a lot of times it is not done right in the first place. The coolent should be changed regularly and since it is aluminum head make sure it never over heats. My Fiero W41 Quad has over 350 000 km and going strong as ever and I abuse it every time I meet a Mustang at a red light........So far my little W41 has not lost a race lol.

You guys have to relise the Quad is a very sofisticated engine and needs to be treated with respect. ...Its the DUCATI of bikes hahahahah what would you rather have a Ducati bike or a poor old ancient Harley lol

just my Canadian $0.02

The biggest problem with the head gaskets was what Will and what Fierobsessed said. The Quad4 was one of GM's earliest aluminum head/cast iron block engines, and the problem was in the different expansion rates of the aluminum head and cast iron block. The factory gasket did not seal well because it was pulled apart by the different expansion rates. Machine shops will deck the block and machine the head much smoother to allow the metal to actually slide on the smoother gasket. I am not any more concerned with my Quad blowing a head gasket (4 core rad., O-ringed block) as I am about my Fiero catching fire. As far as the issue for potential goes, look into the head design. I don't know much about the Cosworth, but I know the 086 Quad4 head has an awesome head design and even the stock H.O. or W41 cams can create a fair amount of power. Jim Fueling was running over 210mph with the stock intake manifold on a turbocharged Quad and a stock bodied Oldsmobile. From what I've heard, the Cosworth Vega can be made into quite a screamer as well, so look online and see how each engine performs and compare it to what you are looking for in your Fiero. Have fun and good luck!!
--Bryson

I'm with hyperV6 on this one (at least I concur in his conclusion). You may want to consider the Ecotech which appears to be the best of both worlds. It's very light, purported to be durable, revs better than either of the others, is amenable to turbocharging, and thus, is capable of putting out tremendous power (800-900 in competition drag racing form??) Oh yeah, did I mention that it is GM's current technology, and will likely be around for many years to come. Now, if only GM would be kind enough to give us a sequential 6 speed (or even 5 speed) trans that is durable enough to handle the power from a moderately boosted engine... Ah, heaven!

------------------
FierOmar

I heard the cosworth vega engine was junk because the bottom ends couldn't handle the RPMS, do they use the same bottom ends as the regular vega? I heard the freestanding cylinders would "walk" around under the head on the standard vega engine and you were lucky if it lasted past 50,000km. I am by no means an expert on the cosworth I didn't even know it existed until last summer, but I am always intrested in learning more. I think most of the q4 problems are caused by bad head gaskets and not retourqing the head after warming it up. Get a good fel-pro gasket and retourque the head after you warm it up good and it should be fine.

------------------
'86 Fiero GT 4spd, aluminum head 3.1, vented rear brakes, K&N filter and custom intake piping, Cavalier seats, Celica GTS Rims-got a T3 turbo just need some time
'69 AMC Ambassador sst 2dr hardtop 390ci 3 spd B&m shift kit(315hp/427ftlbs)
'82 Yamaha Heritage Special 400cc 6 spd, hi-flo exhaust and air filters-For Sale
'83 Nissan Sentra-more rust than sheet metal, but it sure jumps nice

That is essentially the only problem We have found with the Cosworth Vega engine. The block is the weak point, They cannot handle more than 250 HP with the stock block. The crank, rods, pistons, and valve train are all out racing parts, as was mentioned above, good for 9,000-10,000 RPM. And, with The Weber carbs, the stock cams can easily put out 200 HP, (RPM range about 3000 to 8000) with a little porting. (Chevrolet shrunk the intake ports down to reduce output and improve emissions.) There are 3/4 racing cams that will easily bump the HP up to 240, but lose some of the bottom end torque. (RPM range aproximately 4000 to 9500)

The thing to remember is that this Cosworth designed head is an all-out Formula 1 racing design, which flows more air STOCK out of the box (even with it's shrunken intake ports) than the highest performance fully ported SBC heads. This engine, once you open the ports back up, makes more HP per cubic inch by about 50% than the BEST SBC engines.

The mounting bolt pattern is nearly identical to the SBC, and as mentioned above, V8 Archie can make the adaptor to fit it. I wouldn't bother to try to use the original EFI on it, it only allowed about 110 HP, and was set strictly to keep emissions low, and has very little adjustment capability. But Hutton Engineering, in Memphis, Tennessee, made intake manifolds to fit Weber sidedraft carburetors on it, and with no other changes to anything, the stock original engine put out about 160 HP with them. Any free-flowing exhaust system bumps that up to 180 HP, and the porting and compression increase get it to about 200 HP.

It has been one of the most fun engines I have ever driven, and when it "gets on the cams", it makes turbos seem feeble by comparison. It doesn't really need a turbo, it was designed to flow air and make horsepower without one. (Formula 1 cars in 1975 weren't allowed to use turbos)

It is also LIGHT. The entire engine, with alternator and header, weighs just 250 pounds.

Anyway, that is how it stacks up. I know NOTHING about any of the other GM four valve engines, but I suspect they have very little of the all-out performance design that the Cosworth-designed head had. However, they are ALL larger, so they probably have better low end torque.

To compare performance, I would quote the 1/4 mile E.T. as reported by Hot Rod in 1975. the stock Cosworth Vega turned consistant 14.50s, at about 102 MPH, with a car weight of about 2500 pounds, practically the same weight as the lighter Fieros.

Hope this throws some light on the subject.

------------------
Gerald Storvik

http://www.8shark.com

shark your car was smokin at milan I know it wasnt made for the 1/4 mile but sure was quick well till second gear (teasing)

You should see the Quad 4 head. One look at it and it quickly becomes aparant that it was built correctly. Or, better yet, the 3.4 DOHC. The ports are FAR bigger then the Quad 4, both on the intake and exhaust side, its 50% more displacment! But then it only puts out 30 more HP... Tells you something about the cam potential. If only it had a simular cam as the Quad 4 It could easily put out 300+. Im not even going to mension the Northstar!

8shark, can you get us some pics of the head and ports of the Cosworth engine? I'll look for some myself and post them if I see anything good.

If I've done this right there should be three pictures here!

Dick

[img]http://pff.hos tkansas.com/pffimages/CV_Head_Top_Side_640x480_1.jpg[/img]

https://images.fiero.nl/pffimages/CV_Head_Top_Side_640x480_2.jpg

https://images.fiero.nl/pffimages/CV_Head_Intake_Port_640x480_2.jpg

https://images.fiero.nl/pffimages/CV_Head_Exhaust_Port_640x480_2.jpg

Thankyou CosVegFiero, one more request, combustion chamber shot.

Unfortunately the only shot I have is my o-ringed head where cyl 1 & 2 ate part of a washer and nut, they're peppered a little bit! I'll see if the picture comes through this time. Foe some reason when I reduced the size of the other three the resolution went to pot, I think this one is clearer.
Dick

https://images.fiero.nl/pffimages/CV_Head_CC_Side_640x480.jpg

my 92 GTZ put out 170 hp at the wheels, that was with W41 cams, custom header, CAI, port and polish job and some work on the top end of the motor. i'm sure i coulda got 200+ out at the wheels if i woulda tried workin on the lower end and maybe fine tuning some stuff. i beat the ever livin piss outa that motor and never had a headgasket prob. course we did pay special attention to that end of the job when goin thru the top end. now i have a 90 GTZ that i'm workin on. that car has 148,000 miles on it and the head gasket is fine. don't think i'll get as many ponies out of her just because of lack of $$. thats even if i leave that quad 4 in there, she just may end up in my fiero...but i doubt it, i'd rather go with the 3.4 DOHC for that project. personally, if you could find a W41 quad 4 with reasonable miles on it i would go with that. but i do agree with everyone else about the ecotec, the sunfires are DOMNINATING in drag racing...LOTS of potential!!

i sure wish i still had those W41 cams...

[This message has been edited by fastblack (edited 12-29-2003).]

Those W41 cams are just the *tinyiest* bit better then the HO cams. I think by 1º of duration and 1º of seperation. If my memory serves me right. but, seems to make difference.

I kinda like the .410" lift on either, not bad for a DOHC.

I see that the CC's and ports of the Cosworth Vega head are remarkably simular to the Quad 4 head, I bet a good deal of inspiration came from it. And to be honest, I look at the Intake, head and exhaust and the VERY stout bottom end, and Im suprised they only get 180 or so horses. Of course GM probably thaught that they were pushing the limits of a little 2.3 Liter (witch has one of the highest if not the highest horse/Cube of any stock production GM car.) So I'm sure a hot set of cams would wake up the motor considerably.

I do have a question about Quad 4's:
Do combustion chambers crack from high horsepower? It is the one thing that bothers me about the Quad 4's, I feel like if they crack heads at production horsepower, will they last at all with an extra 50 horsepower?

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 12-29-2003).]