In the grassroots article, it mentioned a possible spec fiero class...
I have been looking for info for the past week and nothing...
anyone know anything about this...when, rules, etc.

I have asked this question already, nobody knew anything about it. I myself would like to know more info on this also, I guess the best people to ask this question to is GRM.

Hi: We have been trying to build interest in a Spec Race car based on the Fiero. Since I haven't figured out the PIP yet, I will try to send each of you a photo of our test mule which is based on a stock V6 with a 4 speed trans. The car weighs slightly over 2,000 lbs. We have also been working on various upgrade versions which will allow for enhanced performance by use of a 3.4 and/or a 4.9 conversion, both with 4 speed trans. Note: we are promoting a road racing class, not autocross or drag racing (although each has its virtues).

We have spoken with various officials of NASA www.nasaproracing.com and they are willing to work with us. NASA is rapidly expanding to provide reacing opportunities that simply do not exist within the SCCA. We have also received support (although not finalized) to provide for a spec tire (hopefully at some discount to racers, or alternatively contingency funds).

Within the next few weeks I will have the opportunity to meet with a major manufacturer of performance parts and hope to be able to elicit their cooperation as a series sponsor.

The Fiero makes an excellent choice for a race car platform since initial acquisiton cost is relatively low and parts, including upgrade parts are relatively inexpensive. Anyone with specific questions should email me directly or post in this or a related topic.

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FierOmar

Are you talking about about trying to get a Race class for the fiero or a platform based on the fiero? I wished you were talking about scca spec class for solo II. Too bad you werent, I was excited about it. I looked at the Nasa site you posted, although I am interested, everything is on the west coast, plus I would not have near the funds it would take to run a car in this type of competition. Do please send me pics of the car you are building. My email is chrisdbarger@hotmail.com

Talk to George Ryan. He's on here but I'm not sure about his user name. It's something like cadero2dmax.

He was putting together rules for the Spec Fiero class over on the Fiero Racing list (fieroracinglist@yahoogroups.com) a couple years ago. Incidently, that was about the same time he was writing the GRM article.

FierOmar, have you taken over this project from George, or is he still involved?

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Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

I am in the middle of 2 fiero build ups, but I guess I need to wiat until more details are out. I was thinking of running the american iron series of nasa proracing, but with this i could get the best of both worlds.

For those of you unaware of what the NASA series really is about, here in the past few years they have really stepped up trying to reach to as many locations as possible and keeping amatuer racing pure, and keeping it as cheap as can be for racing. Recently they started a South east division in which will help continue the spread of amatuer racing.

If I can do anything to assist with getting this class rolling let me know. The trailer I own I bought from the guy who runs the southeast division, and runs in the american iron series. So if you want me to talk with him about anything, please let me know.

I would be very interested in a division around the south east. I dont know if KY would fall into this category, but I would drive to TN, SC, GA.

Most of my discussions thus far have been with Ryan Flaherty or John Lindsay (I hope I spelled their names right). Do you like the concept of an open cockpit race car, or would you prefer a hardtop car? What were you planning to do with a Fiero to qualify for American Iron? My understanding is that American Iron (AI) and American Iron Extreme (AIX) were pretty much limited to the Mustang, Camaro and Firebird.

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FierOmar

I was actually going to get a mustang to run in american iron. Though i was also considering using a V8 fiero in a class that is pretty much super unlimited(anything money can build) but I turned away from that since it really wouldnt be driver vs driver, which is what I prefer. Though I do know you will never have equal cars, it can be minimized to the differences.

as for open cockpit to hardtop, fieromar i sent you the email, I think using a fiero and making it open cockpit really takes away from being a fiero, especially since they were never built that way. It isnt like the spec miatas. As for many people out there wanting to race and with little budget, some may not have the proper place, tools, financial backing to be cutting roofs off, reinforcing what needs to be reinforced and doing it all safely for an open cockpit. Remember, Fiero, keep amatuer racing inexpensive(at least in racing terms.

I also think if there will be a spec fiero class, rules should be developed by more than one group of people. I will start by stating some rules I would like to see, or at least some focus points.
PLEASE EVERYONE ADD TO THIS....not to overrun what fieromar and his people have already done, but maybe help and define some rules and make a better package for everyone(more ideas always help)

As far as a motor goes...if you get into 4.9L or 3800 or 350sbc, this greatly increases costs and limits to those who are more mechanically inclined, I work in racing, I could do it, but I will speak for others that cant, I and you know that they are out there. I am building a 350 for one of my fieros but I would like to see rules for a spec fiero class maintain a 60 degree V6 to stay with what a fiero actually was. Since it is hard to keep engine internals disciplined I think it would be easiest to keep this open for mods. The only way to limit bore and stroke and piston types is to tear motors down every race, and I will then be considered out of this series, too much work for that. Exhaust and intake, maybe restrict to and exhaust length or something and allow mods to intake manifold(once again without tear down hard to govern) .
For engines, another option is a spec motor, find a company willing to produce identical motors for everyone and seal them. Only problem here is failures, adds alot of time take it out ship it back, get engine back from shop, reinstall it. Too much work on a fiero.
What is being considered as far as fuel injection or carb....?

Interior, what is allowed to be taken out, everything? legal to make own guage panels etc. ROLL CAGE rules...seat and belt rules....

Brakes, with all of the packages out there, and options for upgrades and custome jobs, i think the best thing is make a rule for say 12" max diameter and 3/4"thick vented, and max 4piston calipers. This would still maintain fairness yet allowing for some fiero brake companies and induvidual custom jobs to show the product. I think This type of rule system works well in racing, rules with some green area to allow for people to build and market parts, prove them on track, and gain a small advatage on track in which everyone has the ability to get. And yes, brake ducting should be allowed, I see that as more safety than advantage(though it is an advantage).

Suspension, Max wheelbase, max width(should be close to stock to stay away from rebodies or wide bodies---cost), spec tire, 16 or 17 inch wheel(one or the other, not either). Tubular a-arms should be allowed, any type of bushing. Coilovers(i would prefer) but this needs to be strongly discussed, springs, shocks, struts, ride height, caster camber minimums and maximums.
88 cradles, how to divide those with 88 cars, and those with 84-87's, allow them to use 88 cradles or not allow 88's to race...

Bodies, spoilers, air dams, radiatro ductwork, hood scoops, side scoops...what are the plans here?

So you know that I am not just blurting out strange stuff out on nowhere, a little about me...
I have a degree in Motorsports management(2yr)
I have worked for Hendrick motorsports and Joe Gibbs racing as a fabricator since 2000.
So I am not just stating random B.S. here, just a little added info from the eyes of someone involved in a racing series and I do see gray areas in rules all the time, in racing, we need to limit those, but still have fun.

I really think those few companies out there for fiero parts could really use this as an avenue to market product and prove their products, what is better than having your spindles or your brake package winning races. I would trust them more after a hard test like that.

Fieromar, please do not think I am walking on your toes as that is not the intention. I think this topic is well overdue, and in order for it to really get kick into gear, people need to know about it, and those beginning it need to hear some input.

Thanks and sorry for a long message...there are many viewers of this topic and not many responders...if you are reading this, drop your 2 cents in on it. Would you or would you not be interested.

Thanks
Kurt

First, to respond to Doug Chase:

My raicing cohort (Rich) and I had the pleasure of meeting with George Ryan a couple years back when he was passing through the area. We were still in the early stages of our project at that time. George has encouraged us, but has also recognized the difficulty in getting people to agree on the rules for any spec class. It's not uncommon to find as many opinions as there are participants, sometimes more!

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that George may be running the NASA program in the Oklahoma area. Could explain why he hasn't been a regular contributor recently. Needless to say, he has had substantial exprience with several different Fiero based performance cars. Heck, I even offered to be first in line to provide some (albeit small) financial help when George wanted to enter the GRM Challenge with a 4.9 powered Fiero. George had also been experiencing some health concerns which he mentioned to those on the Fiero Racing List. I hope they have been resolved satisfactorily.

In case the rest of you don't know, Doug has been campaining a Fiero based rally car , primarily in the Northwest. I have tried to keep up with his program through periodic visits to the Fiero Racing List.

As for our spec racer, we started with the goal of creating something exciting (sounds like a Pontiac). Having been a race fan for close to five decades, I felt something like a CanAm car would generate such excitement. Rich agreed with me pointing out the fact that the (road racing) cars that seem to atract the most attention were the open cockpit cars. As we started looking closer, we decided that we could create a sports racer in the (vague) image of a CanAm car and still stay within a very tight budget.

When I first met Rich, he had a Dino bodied Fiero which certainly seemed to be a decent performer even though relatively stock (he still has that car). When we started looking at the Fiero with an eye to making a race car, we knew very little. In relatively short order, we learned about the performance potential (particularly with upgraded engines) as well as the potential handling flaws. Our test mule sports racer (a stock V6 with a 4 speed trans) was intended to determine whether we could ameliorate some of the flaws that are inherent in the early chassis since. Our conclusion; we think there is an acceptable level of handling with the use of available bump steer kits.

We also looked at numerous spec racing classes, including without limitation, Legends, SCCA's Spec Racer Ford and its predecessor, the Renault Spec Racer (now with NASA), Spec Miata and RX7 classes. We have even had input from some people involved in Karting (as well as Vintage Karting) and Nostalgia Drag racing.

Kurt's comment about it being difficult to monitor engine mods, etc. is well taken. We have cosidered several possibilities, including a trackside dyno which NASA uses on the American Iron series, a challenge rule (with money to compensate if everything checks out o.k.), and a weight penalty rule, which requires the winner at one event toi add some weight for the next event. We haven't settled on any specific option, yet.

We have wrestled with engine choices. I like the overhead cam engines (Quad 4 and 3.4 DOHC) since they generally rev better. However, the Q4 is one of the more difficult swaps from what I have been reading on the forums. (On the other hand, you will usually find a Getrag 5 speed attached to the H.O. version of the Q4.) The 3.4 is somewhat difficult to find. They are out there, but compared to sime of the other options, they are not as readily available.

We have also wrestled with platforms, particularly with whether the 88 should be allowed. Our concern relates to the general availability of the basic chassis at a reasonable cost, although part of the concern relates to the availability of inexpensive transmissions as well (e.g. 4 speed vs. 5 speed). Engine upgrades brake and suspension parts are also concerns.

Kurt is (at least partly) correct that making a sports racer out of the Fiero takes away from it being a Fiero. I certainly have no objection to running a Fiero, and in fact, have plans to build at least one coupe. However, we believe that allowing the option to run an open cockpit car will attract some people that would not otherwise consider racing a Fiero. The same is true for allowing some other engine options.

Ultimately we have come to the conclusion that there is (and probably should be) room for both alternatives. And the great thing about it, we can have the sports racers running against the GTP styled cars in the same event. Got to take care of a few chores... more to come later.

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FierOmar

I will have to thank fieromar for being a class person.

To explain, as I was typing up my LONG message, I was fairly nervous that I would get ripped and flamed for what my views are. That was not the case, He took suggestions and didnt criticize me or my views.

Thank You,

As for having both open and closed cockpits, Good idea. The american iron horsepower to weight ratio, and the weight penalties have always been great equalizers.

Thanks Kurt. I try my best to avoid slamming people... it seems that the older I get the more I realize that I learn more from listening (and reading) than I do from talking. I may not always agree, but I will grant you (and anyone else for that matter) the right to hold an opinion.

Back to the topic... racing. As I said, there is room for both options.

In thinking through the circumstances, we had hoped to limit the participants to the early chassis. Its not that we necessarily like the early chassis more than the 88, the plain and simple fact is that they more readily available. Moreover, despite the fact that the 88 is generally conceded to have the better suspension, the early cars can be made to handle very well (maybe equally as well). The primary concerns with the early cars relates to "bump steer" However, using solid aluminum cradle mounts ($100); polyurethane bushings (about $80-100), and a bump steer kit (about $120 from RCC) goes a long way to minimizing (if not eliminating) bump steer. Of course, you can always put an 88 rear cradle into the early chassis and take advantage of its multi-link suspension ($99 from Held Motor Sports). In any event, to the extent that we are attempting to create an "entry level" (or at least a "budget") spec racing class, it seemed to make sense to require everyone to use the more affordable chassis, thereby eliminating any advantage (whether perceived or otherwise) accruing to those who drive the 88. BTW, there are several Fiero owners participating in autocross who prefer the early front suspension, claiming that it has better "turn in" characteristics (I think George Ryan is one of them). Nevertheless, I am not opposed to allowing all years within the class so long as a weight penalty may be imposed on either chassis if it appears to have a significant handling advantage. The same would be true with those who want to opt for the 88 cradle in the early chassis.

Other advantages of the early chassis::

SPRINGS: Both can use readily available rear coil-over kits with a wide range of available spring rates. Examples are found at Ground Control and West Coast Fiero ("WCF"). Around $200. WCF has 400# rate front 2" lowering springs for the early cars. With most of the weight removed from the frond end, a 2" drop is almost required. However, the 88 seems to sit much higher in front once the excess weight is removed. Thus, we had concluded that we would need to use a 2" drop spindle and a 1" lowering spring. Held may be the only one making an 88 drop spindle at this time ($500-600??). As a side note, from our experience we have determined that the stock 88 front springs are 1" shorter than the front springs on the early chassis. Thus, the WCF 2" drop spring (made for the early car) should have the effect of lowering the 88 by one inch. Using HMS' drop spindle and WCF springs would give a 3" drop on the 88. Based upon everything we have looked at the 400# springs offered by WCF (costing about $350 for the rear coil-over and the front 2" lowering spring) provides the best overall package.

SHOCKS: KONI or KYB??? We had concluded that KYB (about $200 total for all 4 corners) should be used for the entry level cars (essentially stock 2.8 with 4 speed) and KONI (between $500 and $600) would be the shock designated for the upgraded cars (more on this later).

BRAKES: While the 88 already has a vented rotor, it is usually more expensive to upgrade than the early cars. There are numerous improvements that are readily available for the early chassis, starting witht the Beretta/Grand-Am upgrade which can be done with scavenged parts for as little as a couple hundres dollars. Most users report a substantial improvement with this upgrade, and that is without consideration of the significant reduction in weight in a race-ready car. Since brakes are important we would allow the Beretta upgrade on all cars, and might allow some other improvements to be made to the upgraded cars.

TRANSMISSION: We have pretty much concluded that the 4 speed is the transmission of choice (much more readily available and usually much less expensive). If we were to spec a five speed most competitors would feel as if they needed a Getrag which is significantly more expensive to acquire that a 4 speed. More importantly, the guys I know that take their cars on the track rarely get out of 4th gear anyhow. Thus, a 4 speed for the V6 cars. The Isuzu 5 speed may be spec'd for the CanAm sports racers (due to its lower rpm power range). Phantom Grip is allowed on all but entry level. Fitzall type trans bearings recommended on all. Use of the Isuzu 5 speed kind of makes sense when you consider that most of the cars that would be likely candidates for the CanAm series would likely be equipped with the Tech4 and 5 speed.

BASE ENGINE:
Stock 2.8 V6 (no distinct advantage to early chassis here although the early cars were rated with additional 5 h.p.). Use stock F.I. or Edelbrock performance V6 intake manifold with 390 cfm carb. Stock flywheel, but underdrive pulley allowed. Stock headers..

UPGRADE ENGINES:
For the Fiero: Modified 3.4* (from mid 90's Camaro or Firebird). Aluminum flywheel and underdrive pulley allowed. Edelbrock performance V6 intake manifold with 390 cfm carb. (or bored plenum with F.I. -- the carb can make the upgrade from a 4 cyl car fairly simple). WCF headers on essentially stock heads (port matched) with 1.6:1 rocker arms, stiffer valve springs, and cam to specs. (essentially, this engine is stock, except for 1.6 rockers, valve springs and different cam.) This set up should provide a significant increase over the stock 160 h.p./ 200 ft# torque and be good for 6,000-6,500 rpm. (Oreif on PFF claims 220+ h.p. and 235+ ft# torque with a similar set up except for his ported and polished heads).

or

For the CanAm: Essentially stock 4.9 Cadillac V8 with 500 cfm carb. About 200 h.p. with about 275 # torque. This engine won't rev quite as well as the 3.4 (or so I am told), but the available torque across a fairly wide RPM range may make up for the loss in high end limits. This engine would more readily pull taller tires (or the higher gears) thereby being able to yeild essentially the same top end speeds. We have already made an aluminum flywheel for one of these engines (actually had a well respected mfr. of flywheels make it for us). We are looking for an underdrive pulley at this time. Exhaust will use stock manifolds, unless it is determined that the 3.4 has too much advantage in which case we will allow headers.

ENGINE/TRANS MOUNTS:
WCF trans mounts: WCF engine mounts for 3.4 and 2.8. We have yet to determine which is the best engine mount for the 4.9, but we are leaning towards the style of mounts that Rockcrawl has on his site with an upper dogbone somewhat like what WCF offers on it's 3.4 DOHC conversion.

SWAY BARS: 23mm front; 22mm rear (adjustable bars may be allowed on upgrade classes).

WHEELS/TIRES:
BASE: Stock 15 inch with any combination of 15" DOT race tires: e.g. 225/50 rear and 205/50 front (but some people like running same size on all 4 wheels). We reserve the right to spec a tire. (We are looking at Kumho and Hankook, both of which offer a good product at a reasonable price.)

UPGRADE: Lighter aftermarket "spec" rims (most likely 16" for the Fiero and 17" for the CanAm) to be determined (anticipated to cost less than $600 per set). Spec tire sizes to be determned, but leaning to 225-50-16's on rear of Fiero and 245-40-17's on rear of CanAm. (Again, most likely Hankook or Kumho)

In order to accomodate racers, we will probably offer a body kit for the CanAm sports racer sometime in the future. Should make the conversion relatively easy. Of course, there are numerous sources for body panels (air dams, side scoops, etc.) available for the Fiero, some of which we may want to allow (if for no other reason, to allow for some individuality). Once converted, the CanAm will probably weigh a little more than 2,000 lbs. The Fiero... a bit more.

*We have looked over virtually every engine choice available and have settled on the two upgrade engines (3.4 and 4.9) for a number of reasons including without limitation: readily available and relatively inexpensive; near stock weight (the 4.9 with its aluminum block is nearly identical to the 2.8) and thus, maintains front-rear ratio; able to use carburetor in lieu of fuel injection (thereby eliminating any wiring problems); matches existing trans bellhousing (thereby eliminating the need for an expensive kit), and nice fit (thereby allowing some maintenance and repairs to be completed without the need to drop the engine).

A local Fiero owner stopped by the other day. Told me that his 3.4 powered 87 Fiero GT (with some relatively minor mods) was quicker at Laguna Seca than his friends third gen turbo RX7. His car is essentially a stock GT with full interior etc. He stopped by to get a feel for how he could shed a few pounds. He also wants to upgrade the brakes a little more (he currently has Beretta upgrade on front only).

Again, all comments are appreciated. Remember, our objective is to put together a road racing car (or class of cars) that is reasonably safe, offers a fairly high level of performance, and doesn't break the bank.

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FierOmar

Do you have any info on when this hopeful series might be an official deal. And do you plan to run it only on the west coast first then branch it off if it has success.

I hate to keep bugging you about the rules since it really isnt even a real in stone deal yet, but could you hit more on the engine rules, and the different classes, base, upgraded...
If you dont feel like posting unofficial rules, could you at least send something to me, cause I have 1.5 motors sitting here waiting to be built or parted out.

Is it possible to go into detail on what is allowed as far as interior goes...stripped, cage requirements, guages, etc

Since it seems you have figured out what needs to happen for suspension, who, where and how much...would it be possible to talk with those dealers and let them know what goes into the "class" package or have a detailed parts sheet available.

[This message has been edited by truk78 (edited 01-22-2004).]

Hello we would love to be able compete in a series, however our three cars here are all 87 getrag 5spds with the 3.4 dohc engines that we just love to run, one has our new tilt up front end for better areodynamics and less weight www.normsfiberglass.com while our cars are just for street it would be fun to compete and prove our products. For a primer we are headed to Wheat stock this summer just to get our feet wet. The dohc may be a challenge to use, but we believe you get more performance per dollar with this swap. My humble opinion, Thank you Norm.

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Norm Vandermee

Interesting reading. I have a little confusion on the 3.4 nomenclature....are you referring to the 3.4 TDC/DOHC or the 3.4 pushrod motor? Also, it seems that the manual transmission type shouldn't be limited, as long as it is the Muncie, Isuzu, or Getrag. The Isuzu trannies are a dime a dozen, same goes for FWD Getrag 282s (that can be retrofitted with Rodney Dickman's kit). The idea of fifth gear is not to get "an extra" gear for top speed, it's to spend more time at peak power going through the gears towards a similar top speed. Essentially, having five gears instead of four allows you to get to top speed faster, but not necessarily go faster at top speed (in general). The four and five speeds all have their own advantages, leave it up to the racer to choose their favorite. If there's a dominant one, swapping trannies is only a few hundred dollars max, but if you can't afford one yet it will still allow everybody out on the track.

I think desiring multiple classes is a little too ambitious. I doubt there are enough people to make two classes, and entry costs might make a higher performance class less popular. I'd suggest a single near-stock class initially that would allow specified brake swaps, specified suspension improvements, and allowed specified components to be removed (interior, etc.). This would make the car fun to drive at the track, but would still be relatively cheap to build. Getting into engine swaps about doubles the cost of building the car, which is hard enough with the safety equipment, tools, etc. needed to start up....I just don't know there's enough support for that. If the near-stock class becomes popular enough, then you could start a higher performance class, which would be easier to get involved in after you've already been racing the near-stock one.

Personally, I'm building a 3.4 DOHC powered '88 coupe racecar that I haven't decided where I want to drive it (SCCA, NASA, track days, etc.). I'm disappointed to hear that an '88 chassis is not desired to be allowed; if brake swaps and bump steer kits are being done to the '87, what is the big difference? A good driver in the early chassis could still beat an average driver in the '88 chassis. It seems that with the mods allowed, they'll be pretty comparable. I would hope that in the higher performance class, the '88 rear end would be allowed (in an '88 or early chassis), but perhaps limit the near-stock class to early chassis only. That way, the early chassis guys could still move up easily, and the '88 chassis would eventually have a home. As we all know, the early chassis is so cheap and easy to find there's no need in bickering to get the '88 chassis into the near-stock class...for the sake of competition, I'd invest another 100 bucks to get an early chassis to fiddle with instead of my current '88.

There's been talk about this class for a long time, but materializing that seems like a huge step. Do we really believe there's enough support, or is that the problem? I can only speak for myself, I would love to do a Fiero spec class. I'd do a Miata spec class if everybody and their uncle wasn't already doing it. Every Spec Miata race I've seen or heard of was extremely competitive...which is good fun, but hard to start out in (defeating the purpose of why it was originally created, an easy way to get started on the track).

Bryce
88 GT

Hello Nashco, Great reply and I agree the 3.4 dohc 5spd is a complete package. Have a stock class and a modified A and B class based on cu. in. Race what you got, so what sort of suspension package you have can be determined by a limit on wheel and tire spec. keeps it simple. thanks Norm

[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 01-22-2004).]

I will have to agree that support of fiero classes is extremely low(in numbers). As far as how many classes, I would also say 2, Stock with a few changes(brakes and bump steer/ or 88 cradle, intake and exhaust) and that would be it. As far as a modified class, with the use of 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.4DOHC, 3800(and super), 4.9, and sbc, it would take way too many entries to make it reasonable to divide them. Maybe the modified class would just be the classic, "run what you brung". This would be the ultimate proving grounds for those involved with the engine swap wars. With so many suspension options,tubular control arms, bushings, shocks struts coilovers, brakes, cradles, adjustable this and that, it is too hard to limit one specific class to certain mods(it would drive away too many people since many already have a car). I am not saying anything negative about anyone, but those who already have a car that wants to run, remember door to door racing does create problems and wrecks occasionally, so if the car is your baby, think about it, and for most of the cars out there, I would guess not many of them have a roll cage in them yet, and cages with door bars make it hard to get in and out of at the mall.

I too really want to see a fiero class, even if it isnt a 100%spec class. Miatas are made everyday, and that has helped the numbers competing in that, along with mazdas support, which I dont see pontiac doing...But we cant limit the mods too much or we, the fiero people, will drive ourselves out of our own making. So I think we have a catch 22.

So those of you know, NASA and SCCA both have a class for everything already, as for modified fieros, they pretty much throw you in their big money class.

Thanks everyone for a fiero racing thread! I love to watch Fieros race I would rather race one though.

Truk78, Another great response I think you hit the nail squarely on the head, maybe something will come out of this. Thanks Norm

[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 01-22-2004).]

What about something like this with a Big engine and suspention upgrades? I have seen Fiat Bertones and Miatas raced like this.

I will try to answer some of the questions and comment on some of the suggestions.

Truk78: The NASA people I have spoken with have indicated that they will give us a separate start with 6-8 cars on the grid. We would be running with other cars in the same event, just a separate start. NASA has used this separate (staggered) start format successfully for other groups such as the Renault Sports Racers.

As for rules... I am somewhat hesitant to finalize a set of rules at this time, but there are some basics that carry across all the classes; e.g. NASA’s safety rules. For the Fiero based spec car (as opposed to the CanAm sports racer style), I had hoped to have an entry level class (e.g. essentially stock V6 with a 4 speed) which would allow someone the opportunity to try his (or her) hand at racing and/or obtain some basic experience without being cost prohibitive. I feel comfortable with the 3.4 (Camaro) pushrod engine for all the reasons I previously expressed.

Adding the use of a carburetor and the Edelbrock manifold provides some additional power at a modest price, and may even provide an opportunity for a series sponsor.

Interior would be stripped with cage mandatory (see NASA rules) a 5 (or 6) point harness and a racing seat like the spec Miata seat offered by Ultrashield at about $200. Kirk Racing in Alabama makes a full cage at a reasonable price. Thus far, they have been very willing to work with us to develop a modified version of their Fiero roll bar for use in our CanAm test mule. Seem to be real nice people as well. Ultrashield is also willing to work with us.

As far as a class suspension package, the unfortunate fact is that there are multiple vendors, thus making it unlikely that any one of them will offer the class package. However, each of these vendors is well established in the Fiero community and I’m certain would be more than willing to supply their share of the package. We will consider talking to them to provide a complete package through us, but would prefer to avoid the middle man if possible, particularly where the parts originate from an established vendor. At a minimum, a detailed parts sheet (together with the source) would be provided.

NORMSF and NASHCO: I like the 3.4 DOHC as well. Again, we have wrestled with many of these issues (engine choices, etc.), and had concluded that the 3.4 pushrod would be the best for the upgraded “spec Fiero” because it is the most readily available engine and can be obtained at a modest price. Even here in So. Cal. I have seen very few of the DOHC cars in the junk yards.

In addition, although the 3.4 is far from the most powerful option, adequate power is available with modest modifications, and the parts to accomplish such mods are generally available now. Oreif made a good case for the carbed 3.4 a couple months back... claims 220+ HP and 230+ lbs. torque. Moreover, to the extent that you are looking at a spec Fiero class, the 3.4 pushrod is about as close as you can get to the stock look of the 2.8. I think Nashco is also correct on one other point: “Getting into engine swaps about doubles the cost of building the car, which is hard enough with the safety equipment, tools, etc. needed to start up...” The 3.4 pushrod is an exception to this problem. Swapping into a 3.4 would cost only a few hundred dollars more than the 2.8.

Of course, using a 3.4 DOHC doesn’t mean you couldn’t run... to the extent we have a spec class, it just means you couldn’t run for points.

Normsf: BTW, I really like your fiberglass front end... still gets my vote. Hey, maybe we should spec that front end on the CanAm cars. Hmmm. I'll send you a couple pictures via email.

We haven’t decided that the 88 chassis is out; or that use of the 88 rear cradle is out; only that there are several advantages to the early chassis. See my post of 1-21-04. What we want to avoid is the perception that an 88 chassis (or rear cradle) is required to be competitive. I kind of like the idea of allowing the 88's in the upgraded class only. In any case, if allowed, there may need to be some handicapping (e.g. maybe extra weight). More on transmissions choices in a little while.

Truk78: While I certainly agree that there is a charm to having a “run what you brung” class, such a rule generally results in a check writing competition. (Believe me, I can write the checks... I just can’t cover them.) Ultimately, the bar is raised to such heights that only the well heeled can compete. Those who run out of money end up staying home. The original CanAm series provides a good example. Ultimately the factory teams dominated, and the series died. Top fuel drag racing is similar... twenty to thirty years ago, one of my good friends (R.J. Trotter) campaigned his own top fuel car. As I recall, his car held the track record at Pomona in 1973 and again in 1983. Enter the big sponsorship money, and... nowadays don’t bother showing up unless you bring a half dozen engines with you. Nascar is somewhat similar, except that (as I see it) it has evolved as a spec class of sorts partly out of the need to control the speed and maintain a certain level of safety. I doubt that there are too many privately operated cars running in Nascar these days. Spec Miata offers an interesting comparison... $8-9,000 to get into it... more like $15,000 to be competitive (and that is a tightly regulated class).

Nevertheless, I have no objection to allowing those who want to use the 3800SC or some other alternate engine joining us, they just would not be able to compete against us for points. They could run for points in NASA's SuperUnlimited class. BTW, one additional bonus with NASA... they almost always have a High Performance Driving Event (HPDE) in conjunction with their race weekends. Thus, even those who don’t want to add roll bars or compete “door-to-door” can participate. Indeed, there is one local Fiero owner who has indicated that is exactly what he wants to do.

Consequently, while I like the idea of having a spec Fiero entry class for all the reasons I have discussed, and want an upgrade class, I think that class must have some limits so as allow for enhanced performance, but at the same time control the costs.

Roylmohr: You are half way to a CanAm sports racer. Send me your email address and I will send you a couple photos of our CanAm sports racer. I think you will like the style better than leaving the hoop on.

So far we have had comments and interest from about a half dozen people (out of the 8,000 or so who are PFF members). My only real concern is the distance between us which makes it impractical to compete directly against each other on a regular basis.

Oh yeah... I promised to comment on transmissions. Consider the following: If you have a Fiero (say with a slightly built 3.4 that will wind out to 6,000 rpm) running on 225-50-16 tires (24.6" diameter), your theoretical top speed in each gear with a Getrag (3.61 final drive) as opposed to a Muncie 4 speed (3.65) is as follows:

Trans: 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th

Getrag: 35 60 88 130 169
Muncie: 36 62 97 148

Although I haven’t tested either one under these conditions, I tend to believe that it would be unlikely to exceed 130 mph on any one of the straights available in this area (except perhaps for Cal. Speedway when a portion of the big oval is being used). Thus, I fail to see where the fifth gear helps that much.* However, once again, I am not necessarily opposed to using the Getrag... I like them... in fact, I have two spares already (and I used them for years in my Shelby Dodge cars). I just want to avoid the perception that the Getrag is required in order to be competitive.

* Of course, with the 4.9 which produces its peak power at a lower rpm range, the 5 speed may be beneficial. The Isuzu trans is cheap, plentiful, and likely to be included in a car that is acquired for conversion to a sports racer.

Got to go for now. I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions. Hopefully, we will evolve into a core group that will bring a spec Fiero class (or classes) into being. Thanks again.

------------------
FierOmar

I think that perhaps I wasn't as clear as I intended to be. I don't think the 3.4 DOHC should be in any near-stock class, but I think it would be a very good competitor for the 4.9 in a "higher performance" series if one ever was to exist. For the near-stock class, I feel that only the 2.8 can be used with no stroking and the bore may only be increased .030" (about .75mm). This is because that's what the car came with (thus many of the cars will have that to start with) and the FWD 2.8 is cheap and easy to find.

You mentioned the power that Oreif is getting out of his carbed 3.4, but that engine has extensive work done to it, far from an easily replaceable junkyard engine. I have a 3.4 pushrod motor in my daily driver, and I really don't think it has a place in a spec type class. A near-stock class shouldn't allow displacement changes, and if another class is ever created, why bother with the 3.4 pushrod motor? The DOHC/TDC engines really aren't that rare, perhaps you've had bad luck or haven't paid enough attention, but I see them around all the time (car-parts.com shows hundreds available). The overhead cam engines are slightly more difficult to install than the 3.4, but really the difference is negligible for most racers. I consider the cost about the same, as 3.4 pushrods in good shape cost slightly more than the 3.4 DOHC/TDC in good shape due to supply and demand (3.4 swap is very popular for S10s). The pushrod 3.4 doesn't stand a chance against a 4.9 in my opinion. I really don't see a high performance class existing in the immediate future anyway, so this is all moot.

I really like the idea of being able to get on the grid but not being able to earn points, in the event that the car doesn't fit into specs. I'm assuming that my car will end up placed similarly in SCCA, as engine swaps and stripped interiors basically put you in the big boy category. I don't mind losing in my class if I can race with other Fieros, though, at least until I have enough time and money to develop the car to be competitive in its own class.

Yet again, the desire for a five speed on the race track is NOT for top speed; the five speed offers closer gear ratios. As you showed, the 2-3 ratio on the Getrag is much closer than on the Muncie. This means when you are at top speed in second (6000 rpm), when shifting to third in the Getrag you'll be at about 4000 rpm but with the 3.65 Muncie you'll be at about 3700. Also, you see that the five speed reaches the rev limit in third at a much sooner speed, which essentially means you can keep it in the powerband better so that the car will accelerate faster (not get to a higher speed, but get to the same speed sooner). Where the powerband is at in the RPM range isn't that important, it's just important that the engine stay in that powerband. Be it the 4.9 with a powerband from 3500-5000 or the 3.4 DOHC from 4500-6500.

In all reality, the gearing won't make as much differences are driver skill, and the five speed Isuzu and Getrag is even more plentiful than the Muncie four speed. I'm just saying that a five speed is more suited to performance driving, and limiting the transmission choice will just be increasing the level of difficulty to get started. I think any transmission with the same ratios as originally offered in the Fiero should be allowed (which would allow all the Muncie four speeds, the Isuzu five speed, the Getrag five speed, and all of the FWD transmissions that use the same gear ratios). Like you said, the Isuzu is very cheap and easy to find, and is the tranny that the majority of donor cars will probably come with.

I sure wish the Fiero racing enthusiasts weren't so spread out, that throws a wrench into all the gears. Perhaps we could spread some major propoganda around Wheatstock time and gain more interest.

Bryce
88 GT

Great discussion, a few comments.
Give me a place to run, and I'll come. I would really hate to see 88's limited or restricted in any way that would limit the numbers of 88 owners, there aren't a huge numbers of Fiero left anyway and restricting 88's would only reduce the numbers even more. Obviously I have an interest in running 88's, see signature line, but as long as I can go out and run, I really don't care about points. I turthfully think that most Fiero owners would like the opportunity to go out and run and have some fun, but most of a us can't afford to do it and be competitive, so don't make the rules just for competition, keep it so that all of the Fiero followers can go out and have some fun. Again, Great thread, keep up the good work.

------------------
Ron
88 Formula, 4.9, auto, daily driver
88 Formula, 3800 SCII/4T65E Swap in Process, almost done.
88 Formula, 5 Spd, 3.4 TDC Swap in Process, just started.
88 Formula, Stock, 5 Spd, T Top, Special Days Only!

Maybe to help out with numbers of entries, we could allow(in the class) any fiero that follows the NASA safety rules....BUT put a yellow decal on the rear bumper and top of the front window(or some other symbol) for those cars not running for points. This would allow more cars out there and let those drivers competing for points know who they dont need to race hard with. Basically if a car comes up behind you very fast with that non-points symbol, you may let him pass with out worrying about points. Doing something like thiswould get more cars out there and hopefully allow those who dont have a points legal car get sucked into it and soon after build a point legal car.
I understand that NASA has final say in this type of scenario, but they might understand the number problem we are encountering.
With my job, I couldnt see it possible to go out to the west coast to race at all, just not time or cost efficient, but i would try to make east coat stuff happen. Possibly once or twice a year we could have a mid-country shoot-out. And get the sponsors involved with it.

Question about Kirk racing products...Do their cages meet NASA and SCCA rules with out modification. And how exactly are the running bars from the main hoop backwards(with the cradle removable and all, or is that part a bolt on. Hopefully you understand which bar I am talking about.

If a fiero class every starts up...what time span do you see before it would end, I guess I would say quite a while but since it isnt produced anymore, it will run out one day.(unless some one starts to produce a tube version that the original or aftermarket(norms)fits. I plan to build my shop and produce on of a kind cars, but something like tube chassis for past cars wouldnt be out of the question. Once I get ahold of an 88 cradle I am going to build a jig and build new ones. If it was a more demanded car I would have probably already don it. Something of such(tube chassis) would be great for norm and company to get ahold of. Ground up production NEW fieros for performance.......

Ron and Bryce: I have sent each of you a couple photos of the sports racer test mule.

Ron: As I mentioned to Bryce (Nashco), I personally have no objection to anyone running with our race group (even though otherwise not meeting the spec rules). However, the organizing body (probably NASA in this case) will not allow just anyone to run with the race group. At a minimum the car would need to meet their safety requirements and the driver would need to be licensed (or at least hold a provisional license). However, even if the car or the driver were not qualified, NASA would likely allow entry into their HPDE group which it runs in conjunction with almost every event.

Bryce: Comment on transmissions. Consider the following: If you have a Fiero (say with a slightly built 3.4 that will wind out to 6,000 rpm) running on 225-50-16 tires (24.6" diameter), your theoretical top speed in each gear with a Getrag (3.61 final drive) or Isuzu (3.35) as opposed to a Muncie 4 speed (3.65) is as follows:
Trans: 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
Getrag: 35 60 88 130 169
Muncie: 36 62 97 148
Isuzu: 35 64 90 127 177

A similar vehicle with a (mostly) stock 4.9 if run to 5,000 rpm would produce the following theoretical speeds in each gear.

Trans: 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
Getrag: 29 50 74 108 141
Muncie: 30 51 81 124
Isuzu: 29 54 75 106 148

Note: At 5250 rpm the 4 speed (3.65) would hit the target 130 mph.

As you can see, unless the car can actually attain speeds in excess of 130 mph on any given straight, there is little need for the fifth gear behind either the V6 or the V8. With a higher reving engine like the 3.4 DOHC, the need for a 5th gear is further diminished. I suppose that the flip side of my position is that so long as it’s not needed (e.g. no significant advantage), why prohibit it. My primary reason for the proposed limitation relates to the my belief that there will be a perception that the Getrag is necessary to compete, a perception that contradicts the purpose of a spec class that is intended to be somewhat budget conscious. Indeed, allowing the 5 speed (Isuzu) in the sports racer behind the 4.9 is based upon the fact (which I believe is undisputed) that the 4.9 develops its power at a lower rpm range than the 3.4 pushrod engine and the 3.4 has a significantly higher rpm limit (about 1,000-1,200) than the 4.9. As I recall the 3.4 DOHC revs beyond 7,000 rpm.

Frankly, until the last few days, I did not quite understand that the FWD Getrag was as viable an alternative as you have described. Thus, since my concerns relate primarily to cost (created by the desire to be competitive), it may well be that these transmissions should be optional.

You may also be correct in you opinion that the engine/transmission options really would not be the determining factor. Heck, even limiting the spec class to 4 speeds conjures up images of some competitors swapping trans to obtain the 4.10 rear end gears for some tracks or the 3.32 gear set for some others.

The foregoing having been said, if we are to attempt to define a spec class, some decisions need to be made. Although I agree that Oreif’s carbed 3.4 is not a typical junkyard engine, it should be relatively easy to develop 190-200 hp and 210 lbs torque with mostly bolt on parts. Moreover, it should be an easier swap. The engine (once the starter mounts are done) essentially bolts right in. Quoting Oreif (10-26-03) “To carb a 2.8L all you need is the Edelbrock Manifold, Holley 390 4-bbl carb, and a distributor from a 1984 S-10. Swap in a 4-cyl Fiero fuel pump and a regulator. Then just select the cam you want, install all, Turn key and your done.” There is not much more to carbing a 3.4; you may want to add 1.6:1 rockers, ;stiffer valve springs and headers. Some of the other engines may require substantial effort beyond the skills of the average guy (myself included) to rewire the car and/or massage the brain. For the TDC (I guess I should refer to that engine by the officially ordained name) Chris West recommends an upper dog bone,. particularly when used in any form of competition. He charges around $400 to fabricate one (as I recall).

Once again, I would hope to see a base class with essentially a stock 2.8 engine. Our test mule was built for less than $2,500 including DOT race tires. There is no reason why a base car (without the body mods we did, but with a full cage) could not be built for around $3,000. Heck, looking at Toddster’s recent posts, I think he could build one for $300. Such a car would certainly have some limitations, but would allow the driver to gain valuable experience while staying within a strict budget.

During the time I have studied this issue, I have tried to project the costs associated with producing each version. Not that I am challenging you (or anyone else out there), but I would like to consider your vision of a spec racer together with the projected budget. Try to plug in the numbers in the following format for both a base car and an upgraded performance version.

FIERO SPEC RACER

Acquisition cost (basic car): $

Engine/trans:
Purchase Alt. Trans* $
Purch Alt. Engine*
Engine mods*
Clutch
Lightened Flywheel*
Underdrive pulley
Headers/Exhaust*
Intake manifold (for carb)*
Carb*
Motor/trans mounts
Phantom grip*
Fitzall bearings (trans)

SUSPENSION & BRAKES
Front lowering springs: $
Rear springs (or coilovers)
Bump steer kit*
Shocks (KYB)
Shocks (Koni)
Aluminum cradle mounts*
Held 88 cradle kit*
Poly Bushings
Brake upgrade*
Brake pads (comp or?)
Braided brake lines*
Adjustable prop. valve

WHEELS & TIRES:
Wheels $
Tires (DOT race)

EXTERIOR:
Body mods (air dam, etc) $
Paint

INTERIOR:
Rollbar $
Harness (min 5 pt)
Seat

GRAND TOTAL:

*if allowed and/or needed.

I realize that you will need to estimate the cost of some of these items, but try to give a fair estimate. Some prices can be confirmed from readily aailable sources. Note: the foregoing does not include any labor except for the paint job. Some owners are fully capable of painting their own car.

Thanks for your continuing interest.

------------------
FierOmar

I will look into the budget sheet...may take a little while, but I will do it.
I will also do a sheet for one of the highly modified cars I am building, and will use ratail prices for all that apply.

BTW, you are welcome to add to the budget sheet that I have suggested. You will note for example that I have not provided for a fuel cell. Although not required, it may be desirable. Also, even though you mentioned retail prices, most of us can by many things at "racer's net" or some other discounted price. Thus, if a particular part is readily available at Summit, it might be unfair to list the GM price.

Ultimately, a pachage must be developed that competes with the other makes and/or spec classes. Based upon my experience, I think an upgraded "spec" Fiero that would run circles around a Spec Miata can be built for about the same price. I will be interested in seeing your opinions.

------------------
FierOmar

edited out

[This message has been edited by truk78 (edited 01-23-2004).]

Truk78: Alright, let’s make in a little easier. I think we can fairly assume that the more that is paid for a car, ;the more likely it is to have mostly functioning parts... and to make it a little easier, let’s assume that we got an 86 2M6 complete with aero front, back, etc.; a car that we got fairly cheap because the interior is in dire need of renovation, body is o.k., but the paint needs attention, etc., maybe the a/c doesn’t work very well. We really didn’t care what the shocks and brakes were like, and kind of hoped it had some emissions issues (since that might help lower the price). But, the basics are all there. Oh yeah, it does not have a sunroof which bothers a lot of people, but serves our purpose perfectly, because we want to make an entry level Fiero race car out of it..

We check the rules... any trans that came with any Fiero. Since we already have a 4 speed with 3.65 gears, we don’t need to waste any money on a replacement (consider that option at a future time). We know we want to gut the car; e.g. remove everything that is not need from the interior as well as the front end and rear end. Entire interior including dash (except for instrument cluster is out. (Surprising how much all that weighs.) Take out the spare and the panel separating it from the radiator. Remove the front facia and lose the front bumper (if you want to run without it). While there remove the a/c condenser, the dryer, and all the hoses. Take the lights out if you want because this is a daytime racer (save them just in case). Take the rear facia off and lose the bumper (if you want to run without it). While there, cut out the bottom end of the trunk (it tends to get into the way). Remove the muffler for now.

Take off each door... lose the glass, and prepare the doors for cutting (you can lose about 60 pounds off each door this way (I’ll take some photos of how to cut them within the next couple days). While you have them off, might be a good time to fit the roll cage into the car. Reattach gutted doors.

Decision time... carb or leave the fuel injection? Let’s stay with F.I. on this one since is seems to be working well enough. We will get rid of the cat and use a single pipe coming straight out the right rear to a SuperTrap Alternatively, we could install a small muffler on the front side... we’ll decide when it’s time to reassemble.

Drop cradle... replace cradle bushings with Darrell Morse’s aluminum ($100), and install the RCC bump steer kit ($12.0) . If the clutch is suspect, may need to replace it. Let’s assume that we do a replacement so long as we have the drivetrain out of the car. Also, get rid of a bunch of the sound deadening materials in the car. Before the cradle goes back into the car, add new rear coilover springs from WCF ($220 ) along with new KYB shocks. May want to add poly bushings to the rear at this point. Check ball joints and replace as needed (or desired).

Rear brakes. Recommend Beretta conversion which is a snap to install on the rear of the Fiero. Parts should be readily available for junk yards, etc. Might as well remove emergency brake cables since you won’t be needing them. (Keep them if you decide to stay with the original single rotor on the rear— remember Beretta upgrade is recommended, not required... and this puppy will have been on a serious diet by the time it hits the track.) Decide if you are going to use braided brake lines. Add a rear sway bar (22mm from junkyard will do).

Now to the front end. Remove left (or right) upper and lower control arms. Add poly bushings, check ball joints (and replace as necessary). Send front rotor/hub (along with the other side) to shop to be machined into a hub that is appropriate for Beretta upgrade. Install longer studs when returned. Replace master cylinder with Blazer, and add new adjustable proportioning valve if desired.

Reinstall front hubs after replacing wheel bearings if needed. Cut front bump stops following WCF instructions and install WCF front lowering springs ($130). Add new KYB shocks to each side. Install new brake pads (front and rear) and add fluid as needed .

Remove hood to delaminate and allow for a hood vent system (a photo of a hood vent appears with the sports racer photos I have provided thus far. Cut out cross bracing to all room for hood vent.

You will need to install some sheet metal under the front end to smooth out the underbody. Add a second piece (if desired) to help protect the fuel tank, and another piece to cover the shift consol, and yet another piece to close off the bottom of the trunk area. Oh yeah, one more piece needed to close off the area where the heater came out. Relocate battery to the front if you want to and add an oil cooler as desired. Once the hood vent is in place, complete ducting of the radiator as neded. Reinstall front and rear facia

If the car did not already have them, find a set of 15" basket weave wheels. Order tires.... Paint to suit. Get a quality alignment.

I’m sure I have glossed over several items. So, don’t hesitate to fill in the gaps. Again, comments are always appreciated. But, let's save the 3.4 for the upgrade. Right now we are looking at the bare minimum.

------------------
FierOmar

sorry, i was in the middle of a post when yours popped up, I am tired right now, and quite slow.
That would be a very good setup, and you could even go less than that. The post I made above that was more or less the bare minimum to be competitive, i would think.

OK now who is going to get a car and race it? If anyone is racing at Mid Ohio let me know its ten minutes away from my home. Seriously good luck to all that decide to race a fiero.

Roy: Did you get my photos? With the way you chopped you car, I thought you were on your way to building a sports racer. For an interesting comparison, check www.8shark.com Gerald Storvik (8shark) has a Cosworth Vega powered Fiero that is otherwise similar to our sports racer, except he has retained the hoop.

------------------
FierOmar

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: As you can see, unless the car can actually attain speeds in excess of 130 mph on any given straight, there is little need for the fifth gear behind either the V6 or the V8. With a higher reving engine like the 3.4 DOHC, the need for a 5th gear is further diminished. I suppose that the flip side of my position is that so long as it’s not needed (e.g. no significant advantage), why prohibit it. My primary reason for the proposed limitation relates to the my belief that there will be a perception that the Getrag is necessary to compete, a perception that contradicts the purpose of a spec class that is intended to be somewhat budget conscious.

As I said, the reasoning for having a five speed has got NOTHING to do with top speed, in this case. Regardless of whether you understand what I mean by using closer gear ratios, you do understand that there is little to no reason for limiting the transmission allowed. I think your perception that a Getrag is expensive is just as odd as those who think the Getrag would be required to compete...really, the differences in both cases are almost negligible. You can get a Getrag for $50 all day at U-pull yards, but it really wouldn't be necessary unless you wanted to because the Isuzu will work just as well if you already have it. Like you have come around to understand....if you feel there's no significant advantage between the 4 and 5 speed, why limit it? In a class like this starting out, driver skill and suspension setup will make FAR more difference than gearing choices. If somebody does think they NEED a different tranny after getting on the track, it's only a few hundred dollars and it's purely their choice.

quote Some of the other engines may require substantial effort beyond the skills of the average guy (myself included) to rewire the car and/or massage the brain. For the TDC (I guess I should refer to that engine by the officially ordained name) Chris West recommends an upper dog bone,. particularly when used in any form of competition. He charges around $400 to fabricate one (as I recall).

I would hope you wouldn't push carburetion in a higher performance class (if it ever exists) purely for simplicity. The 4.9 and 3.4 TDC take some wiring harness work, but the work can be done by any skilled mechanic easily, and there are people who will do it for a few hundred dollars. Please keep in mind that in today's world of tuning, there are just as many young guys like me that have very little carb experience as there are older guys who have very little injection experience. Personally, I feel that electronic engine management is MUCH better for performance reasons, but I won't get into that here. As for engine mounts, they are by no means complicated, and can be built by someone with any fabrication skills for very little money. In the event that a spec class was attempted, I feel VERY confident that a few of the prominent members in the Fiero community would step forward to support these fairly simple tasks...be it documenting how to build the spec engine mount, doing wiring changes, or flashing spec PROM chips for specific engines.

Here's my best guess for a 2.8 stock, 3.4 pushrod stock, and 3.4 TDC/DOHC with mild modifications racecars. Where only one price is entered, I've assumed it will be the same for all engine and class choices. Where there are three, they are in that order (2.8, 3.4 pushrod, 3.4 TDC). I'm only qualified to guess for those three, as I've done all of them (almost done with the DOHC, not quite). This is assuming that a junkyard engine in decent condition is used. NA means I don't feel this is necessary for every driver and is entirely optional.

quote During the time I have studied this issue, I have tried to project the costs associated with producing each version. Not that I am challenging you (or anyone else out there), but I would like to consider your vision of a spec racer together with the projected budget. Try to plug in the numbers in the following format for both a base car and an upgraded performance version.

FIERO SPEC RACER

Acquisition cost (basic car): $500 (assuming average condition base 2.8, manual trans, aero body, after parting out interior, etc. This will vary greatly)

Engine/trans:
Purchase Alt. Trans* NA
Purch Alt. Engine* $0, $500, $750 (based on average of national results found at www.car-parts.com)
Engine mods* $0, $100, $1100
-3.4 pushrod mods: starter hole tool ($60 Rodney Dickman), balanced flywheel ($20 junkyard), appropriate oil pan/timing cover ($20 junkyard)
-3.4 TDC mods: balanced flywheel($20), exhaust headers($600), intake manifold($300), cam adjust tools($20 DIY), dogbone mount($60 DIY), modified PROM ($100)
Clutch $300
Lightened Flywheel* NA - $400 if desired (from SPEC clutches)
Underdrive pulley NA
Headers/Exhaust* (See above)
Intake manifold (for carb)* NA - $90 if desired (from Jegs)
Carb* NA - $300 if desired (390 4bbl Holley from Jegs)
Motor/trans mounts (See above)
Phantom grip* NA - $300 if desired (from Phantom Grip)
Fitzall bearings (trans) NA - $80 if desired (from Rodney Dickman)

SUSPENSION & BRAKES
Front lowering springs: $125
Rear springs (or coilovers) $125
Bump steer kit* NA - $625 if desired or $100 for '88 cradle conversion+app. $300 for '88 cradle
Shocks (KYB) NA
Shocks (Koni) $520 (www.shox.com)
Aluminum cradle mounts* $100
Held 88 cradle kit* (see above)
Poly Bushings $200 for all poly $400 for all UHMW
Brake upgrade* $500 (guess, will vary greatly)
Brake pads (comp or?) NA
Braided brake lines* $100
Adjustable prop. valve NA - $40 if desired (from jegs or summit)

WHEELS & TIRES:
Wheels NA - $400 (guess)
Tires (DOT race) - $400 (guess)

EXTERIOR:
Body mods (air dam, etc) NA
Paint NA

INTERIOR:
Rollbar $500
Harness (min 5 pt) $100
Seat $200
HELMET/SUIT $350

GRAND TOTAL:

*if allowed and/or needed.

---------
I tried to assign fair market value/MSRP for all of this stuff. I would consider this the MAXIMUM it would cost to build the above cars, assuming you're not paying somebody else to build your car for you. I know that on about half of the items I could easily save money building/modifying parts myself, shopping around, etc.

This comes out to about $4700 for the most basic spec chassis with most of the amenities (good clutch, brakes, suspension, etc.) but stock 2.8 and with an '88 cradle and Held adapters into early chassis ($4925 if bumpsteer kit is used)

That means the carbed 3.4 pushrod would come to about $5700 with an '88 chassis and held adapters

To go with the modified 3.4 TDC would be about $6550 with an '88 chassis and held adapters, and with optional flywheel, Held Koni adjustable coilovers, UHMW bushings, and brake proportioning valve about $7400.

With this in mind, I think it's fair to say that the build price for a spec car as I've described here would be from $2500 to $5000 for the entry level spec class. To add a 3.4 to that will increase cost another $500 to $1500 or to add a 3.4 TDC/DOHC another $1000 to $2500. With a handful of allowable changes in a higher performance class using a 3.4 TDC, the build price would be from $4500 to $8500.

I'd get into any one of these spec classes for that much money, no doubt about it in my mind.

Bryce
88 GT

Hello Way to go Nashco keep the 3.4dohc engine and a getrag 5spd. Like I said before to keep high performance cars and costs managable just limit the tire and wheel size, that will do more than anything else so again what does it matter what drive train package you have, put in a A and B class by engine size with a stock class. If not then you risk having a smaller turn out to events, since you have forced other contestents out. Thank you Norm

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Norm Vandermee