First, let me say that I do not want to start a war here, and I do not in any way intend this as a flame. I just wanted to point out how our choice of language can affect others.

We have filtering software here at work, which blocked the first page of threads in Tech this morning. Fortunately, I am the administrator, so it was easy for me to disable the filter to view the thread list. I assume the filter blocked the page because of the use of the phrase "bad-azz" (spelled properly) in one of the subject lines.

Just a reminder that some end users may be prevented from viewing forum topics (or in this case, the tech section as a whole) because of language choice. I've had threads blocked before, but this is the first time the thread list has been blocked. Personally, I'm not bothered by it, but it's a pain to circumvent the filter, and other users may not have that luxury.

Thanks.

as a general rule - EVERYTHING posted should be clean and not set off ANY filter.
and thats not just here.

And while on the topic of subject lines... I really hate thread titles with no info in them. Like a few recent ones:

Has anyone tried this?
Don't you hate it when
just a quick thought

...but it's even worse in Tech - if you have a question, and you want answers... please try to be as descriptive as possible. I don't always check a topic if it has a generic subject.

umm I forgot whats this connect too
What in the!?!?!
What DO I neeD??
I FOUND IT & U NEED IT

*NOTE: I'm not picking on anyone in particular... I'd just really like to see some subject lines with a little more info!

------------------

Looking for Fiero posters?

And could we please eliminate or have Cliff block the "WTF" acronym. Especially in titles. Not all of us use that language.

------------------

Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 INTERCOOLED SUPERCHARGED
White 88 GT Stock
Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.
History of Skitimes Car

I hear ya, MinnGreen.. I got to the point where I decided not to open those types of threads. But for some reason, I still do! And they never seem to be what I thought they'd be!!! ARGHHH!!

I'm OK now.

I like the idea of a cleaner, nicer Forum. My son loves to come here and look at everyone's cars, but some of the stuff here is not fit for a 10 year old.

quote Originally posted by Stinkin_V8: I hear ya, MinnGreen.. I got to the point where I decided not to open those types of threads. But for some reason, I still do! And they never seem to be what I thought they'd be!!! ARGHHH!!

Yeah, I still end up checking them out eventually ...but only after I've read all the threads with descriptive titles

Is this really a cultural change in our society? Although I am by no means old (just 26) I have noticed people my age and younger use "bad" language all the time, in the course of their everyday conversations. They really do not see anything offensive in using these words. Maybe that is why we see them pop up on the forum a lot. Personally, I do not use those words on the forum, or in my everyday life, but I am also not really offended by people who use them. I am just used to seeing and hearing them I guess. But it would be nice not to have to fear the IRM police at work when I click on the forum!

Sorry, I do not agree with any of this. I do not find anything wrong with saying bada$$. This is no more of a "bad" word than DAMN is.

The F word, if anyone uses this, I can understand why people would be mad, it is a public forum. But words like A$$, or the S word (as long as it is used in the context like "aawwwee S***) then who really cares? Is it going to scar you emotionally? I really don't understand what the big deal is. People use those words to better express emotion, if they are used in a derogatory way, then this place would not become uncivil, and that would be a bad thing. But if they are just used in a normal conversation, then I don't see why anyone cares. personally, it annoys me when people say stuff like "that car is off the hook" or "that car is the bomb". To me, people who say stuff like that, are just showing how stupid they really are. Emulating a lifestyle of power mongers, and materialistic whoring, but you won't see me telling them they can't say it. To me a person like that, is twice as harmfull to society, and the forum, than someone who says bada$$.

I have a social filter, I know when to use certain words, and not to, and you won't see me posting bad words, but seriously, censorship is worse than the people saying the words in the first place.

THEY ARE WORDS! Why do people insist on censorship!

Saying words like that does not make this site a bad place. It makes it like the REAL WORLD.... outside of our sheltered lives.

quote Originally posted by soup: THEY ARE WORDS! Why do people insist on censorship!

There are a couple of reasons cited in this case. 1st: Software restriction & censorship... do realize that a large number of us browse and post to the forum while at work. Now most companies don't mind if their employees use the internet for personal things - as long as it's not "restricted" material or overused. Many companies run filtering software to restrict users from accessing certain types of sites... often times this software is based on "trigger" words like A$$ as mentioned above. So by using those words (especially in the subject line of a post) restricts a user from viewing that topic or in this case the whole section of the forum because of that one word.

Heck, there are some filters out there that are so strict that they won't allow users to access GFC because the page title has "chat" in it... <just another example>.

2nd: Children. While this is not exactly a "family" site by topic - it should be a "family-friendly" site so that people who do not wish to have their children use words like S*** in their everyday language (or at school, where such language is still punishable), are not put in a "forced exposure" type situation.

It really has to come down to just respecting other people, and their ability to view the forum as well as to allow their young children to view it. Really, it's just using a more refined "social filter" (I like that term btw) in this setting.

Note that I don't disagree that many of those words have become a more-regular part of everyday language... but that doesn't make it right.

quote Originally posted by skitime: And could we please eliminate or have Cliff block the "WTF" acronym. Especially in titles. Not all of us use that language.

What's wrong with What The Frigg?

There's even a smiley for it...

------------------

The Dirty Rat
Chopped, dropped and just plain NASTY!
383 Stroker MPFI with N2O
2" Drop
3" Chop
11" Brakes
19" Motegi Roja's wrapped in BFGoodrich Gforce T/A KDW-2 rubber
RCC Coilover Suspension
Updated Jan 21 '04 www.dirtyratracing.org

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 03-26-2004).]

quote Originally posted by soup: Sorry, I do not agree with any of this. I do not find anything wrong with saying bada$$. This is no more of a "bad" word than DAMN is. The F word, if anyone uses this, I can understand why people would be mad, it is a public forum. But words like A$$, or the S word (as long as it is used in the context like "aawwwee S***) then who really cares? Is it going to scar you emotionally? I really don't understand what the big deal is. People use those words to better express emotion, if they are used in a derogatory way, then this place would not become uncivil, and that would be a bad thing. But if they are just used in a normal conversation, then I don't see why anyone cares. personally, it annoys me when people say stuff like "that car is off the hook" or "that car is the bomb". To me, people who say stuff like that, are just showing how stupid they really are. Emulating a lifestyle of power mongers, and materialistic whoring, but you won't see me telling them they can't say it. To me a person like that, is twice as harmfull to society, and the forum, than someone who says bada$$. I have a social filter, I know when to use certain words, and not to, and you won't see me posting bad words, but seriously, censorship is worse than the people saying the words in the first place. THEY ARE WORDS! Why do people insist on censorship! Saying words like that does not make this site a bad place. It makes it like the REAL WORLD.... outside of our sheltered lives.

First, I don't believe I advocated censorship in my post. I simply suggested people consider the effects the language in their posts has on others. Censorship is what Cliff does (appropriately, IMHO) when certain words are not permitted to pass. No, of course it's not going to scar me emotionally. Maybe I don't care whether you say bada$$ or not, but my filter does, which was the whole point I was trying to make.

Try surfing the forum from a public library, or a high school computer lab, or at the office, where a filter kicks in and won't show certain posts or index pages and you'll find out how annoying it is. The big deal is that the more people use language that can be considered offensive, or sexual in nature, the more the possibility exists that some users just won't be able to view portions of the forum. To reiterate my example, if didn't happen to be the administrator, The entire first page of threads in Tech would have been blocked for me this morning.

[This message has been edited by AndyLPhoto (edited 03-25-2004).]

I think it comes down to the fact that this is a public forum and we need to be respectful of other's opinions. I personally am not bothered by "foul" language for the most part, but I realize others may be. So I don't use it here. And it depends on the setting, too. While I and my friends may use them in our conversations, I don't use certain words around my children. And words I use around a buddy aren't the same words I use when talking to someone I don't know well. Words appropriate at home may not be at work. And the list goes on.

It's all about what's appropriate for the situation. Given the fact that many of us don't know each other except for our postings, a certain amount of "social filtering" (I like that term as well, soup ) seems neccessary.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 03-25-2004).]

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: And while on the topic of subject lines... I really hate thread titles with no info in them. Like a few recent ones: Has anyone tried this? Don't you hate it when just a quick thought

I agree with this totally...but I too usually get around to reading those because I am addicted to the forum and have to read every thread

And folks let's try to keep this family friendly.

------------------
If you find my advice useful, then please give me a positive rating, thanks...

1988 GT (Firebird Interior),1988 Coupe (Daily Driver), 1985 SE (Project Car), 1985 Coupe (parts car), Firebird Interior Installation Website

I agree as well.
First off, working at a high school I have to bypass our filters at times as well just to simply see what is being blocked, merely because some genius thought they would be a smart alec in how they would post a thread. It is rare that I have to do that as most of them are not blocked. Plus, I have to be very carefull, as being a staff member at a high school I have to watch what I am seen viewing on a computer by both my fellow staff/employees and just as important, other kids. I can't get on their case when I catch them looking at an inapropriate site if they just got done seeing me looking at a chat forum with posts like "WTF!!!" or worse. Know what I mean? I know enough to be very carefull when obviously going into OT and of course the trash can is a given, but in all the others I "shouldn't" have to be.
Second, I am a father. I have kids myself as many of you all know. My kids who, thanks to myself, their mother and even their grandfather who all have one or two or more of these cars have fallen in love with them as well. My 14 year old daughter surfs on Pennocks quite often, many times while at her school. I think that is great and I love it when she e-mails me about some thread she saw or can't wait to tell me when she sees me later. However, as some are not blocked, if someone was to look over her shoulder while she was at school looking thru the threads at the wrong time and saw how even one of the threads that was worded like some examples that have allready been given above, they would sadly not only get a very incorrect opinion of what Pennocks really is but she would probably get in trouble as well.

And then of course there is Jordan. Being only 10 years old, he maybe one of, if not the youngest Fiero owner around. I hate it when he is looking at Pennocks on his own or with me and sees some of the ways people start topics on here or even more often how some talk and get rude and insulting in some of them.

Is that what we want? For the younger generation just starting to get interested in Fieros and while checking out this place to have to be subjected to some words, phrases and/or comments which if they used themselves at home or in public like at school would be punished for as being inappropriate? If we won't allow our own kids to talk or use any of these comments in public, then why do we use them ourselves and allow them in this public forum? Our public forum.
Do these types of things really need to be used on here?

I think I can safely say that just about all of us here are very proud of this place, and yet some members from time to time talk on here as though they are in the back room of a sleazy bar.
I am not asking for censorship either, just some simple common sense.
We all agree that being proud Fiero owners puts us in a unique place in the car world, so can we please try and do a better job of backing that up with the appropriate attitude as well?

Just my feelings on the subject.
Thanks for the space

Steve

[This message has been edited by Fiero5 (edited 03-25-2004).]

Let me add one more pev. I work at a high school. I really hate that signiture of the girl with the bouncing boobs. If that comes up at the wrong time I could be in trouble. Wish he would grow up and change it. Cliff did ask that there are no animated sigs. Wish he would comply.

i'm not sure why, but the last time i was on the guard base (my first drill weekend since deactivation), i couldn't bring the forum up at all. i could look at the gallery and other parts of the site though. could what y'all are talking about be why?

What truly amazes me is the number of people who surf this forum while at work or school. Aren't you supposed to be working, instead of perusing this forum for personal business? If you're worried that something you see here might cause you trouble while viewing it at work...DON'T VIEW IT AT WORK. Wait until you're at home, and view it on your own time...on your own computer..where you can't get in trouble for something someone might have posted.

I agree that we should all watch what we post. But I find it truly amusing that someone would ask you to watch what you say so that they don't have to worry about filtering software on computers AT WORK causing them not to be able to view a particular thread.

We have computers where I work. We have internet access. The regular employees are not even allowed to USE the computers, let alone access the Internet, or Pennock's, on company time.

Sheesh....

I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe the text content of the subject lines also has huge effect on the forum's standings in searchengine results. I think Cliff used the word s.e.x as an example. Not that it affects any of us here and now, but it could prevent new enthusiasts from finding the forum. I strongly believe in personal freedoms and I can tollerate a lot of junk myself, but I think we should all be considerate of how our actions affect others.

Jon

I agree with AndyLPhoto
But I am a older person and for some reason when you get older you change your way of thinking and living.You younger person's take my advice, when you get older you will say that old man was right. I cuss like %$&*) but I hope I don't let it slip on this Forum.
Also Cliff has ask for everybody to cut your signature down to smaller size, but I still see alot of them that are very large. I just never was the kind of person that I wanted everybody to notice me. I love this Forum and we should stick to good infomation and not try to brag about yourself. I worked at a Hospital and there was this one big shot nurse that had degree's hanging all over her office. guess what! she was a very poor RN. when I see a person that brags a lot I pretty much avoid he or she.
Please everybody lets keep this Forum running the way Cliff wants it to run.
Don

quote Originally posted by skitime: Let me add one more pev. I work at a high school. I really hate that signiture of the girl with the bouncing boobs. If that comes up at the wrong time I could be in trouble. Wish he would grow up and change it. Cliff did ask that there are no animated sigs. Wish he would comply.

I view the forum at home, so it doesn't bother me... but... I could see how that could be very bad if viewing in a public place.

Images that "might" get you in trouble:

There are options in every modern browser to turn off graphics, and load only the images that you wish. This will speed load times, and keep you from seeing images that MIGHT get you in trouble. Sure it is ugly, but would you rather get fired because of some animated tits jiggling on the screen? There IS an option in internet explorer to not play animations on websites, it is under advanced. If you find that animated gifs are that anoying, you can turn them off Hell you can turn images off and leave a "Place Holder" where the image is so you can tell how large it is, and tell it to load if you wish. (right click, load image)

Mozilla has an interesting Feature, allowing oneself to block images from a specific server. So if someones sig is coming from "jigglyboobs.com" you can right click on the image and tell it to "block images from this server" however if its hosted on cliffs server, then you will block all images hosted there. (You could not see PIP images). Unfortunatly this feature is not included with internet explorer.

Skitime, No I mean no offence, its just that your situation was easiest to use as an example

James Z

------------------

quote Originally posted by litespd: We have computers where I work. We have internet access. The regular employees are not even allowed to USE the computers, let alone access the Internet, or Pennock's, on company time.

What about irregular employees?

quote Originally posted by chester: What's wrong with What The Frigg?

I WEAR A SHIRT THAT SAYS......"WTF?" DAMN RIGHTS!

------------------

beings as i'm part of the younger generation here (19). i would like to say that i would agree people need to watch there Language. yeah sure i say these words too, but not here, ever. and when i'm in public i try to keep my language to a bear minimun, especially if there are any children around. someday i want to have kids and i know right now, some punk teen is gonna start cussing in front of them (not specifically them but around them) and then i'm gonna be real offended. so i can really relate to how some of the "older" members with kids that surf here feel.

i also wanted to mention, i have friends of many many ages. (from 13-80's, the 13ish people are relatives though, don't know if that counts) anyway, i wouldn't dare cuss if front of my friend who is 75. being from different generations i don't want him to think i'm a punk or anything. that's what the adults think of kids who cuss. YOUNG PUNKS! that's not how i want to be thought of for sure. i do it to though, if i see a kid who is younger wearing his pants down to his upper thighs, and swearing up a storm, to me, he is a punk, or a wannabe toughguy or somthing like that. another example, if i meet someone, and the say F'in a whole lot, they are a BSer. that's just somthing wierd i've noticed.

i think, (and i know i'll get flammed for this from people my age) IT ALL STEMS FROM RAP!!! think about it, rappers cuss like crazy, wear there cloths down to there butts, sign about all kinds of violence, etc. i listen to heavy metal and have not be exposed to cussing from it almost at all. and look at my views. i have friends who listen to rap and cuss so much i want to slap them. but that's just a theory.

-Fish

quote Originally posted by cliff p:There's one thing I see happening quite a bit and really guys, that's kinda childish: "Hello, I'm selling [insert item here] and I paid $xxx for it. It can be yours for $yyy". Then someone jumps in and responds: "$yyy? You must be crazy. I saw [insert similar item here] for half of that!" Right, people. A friend of mine just bought a house for $400,000. He must be nucking futs because I saw another house for sale for only $75,000. So unless you have a source for the exact same product, you can't really tell if it's expensive or not, now can you? So before you post your "you must be out of your mind asking that amount" reply, think twice.

people stop taking things so seriously...
above is a quote from cliff himself...
its a sticky note in the mall section...
simply put...
calm down...
nucking futz i believe is the phrase....

quote Originally posted by skitime: Let me add one more pev. I work at a high school. I really hate that signiture of the girl with the bouncing boobs. If that comes up at the wrong time I could be in trouble. Wish he would grow up and change it. Cliff did ask that there are no animated sigs. Wish he would comply.

Maybe some of you should be working instead of browsing PFF at work if things like this will get you "In trouble" I think that was mentioned before...

My opinion is this - as a whole there are a LOT of posts generated here daily. I feel that from the amount of posts per day, these issues are negligible...

It's like trying to do the same thing out in public...kind of ridiculous...This is a PUBLIC forum and for the amount of people/posts generated, I feel it's one of the better behaved. Browse around some other forums and you'll see what I mean...

I'm done..

Rob D.

------------------

The Dirty Rat
Chopped, dropped and just plain NASTY!
383 Stroker MPFI with N2O
2" Drop
3" Chop
11" Brakes
19" Motegi Roja's wrapped in BFGoodrich Gforce T/A KDW-2 rubber
RCC Coilover Suspension
Updated Jan 21 '04 www.dirtyratracing.org

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 03-26-2004).]

I've noticed that a couple 'slightly' offensive words (or even phrases) seem to escalate into horrid name-calling flame threads that Cliff ends up locking down and tossing in the trash. A waste of bandwidth. My peev: ettiquette! I've noticed requests that are worded certian ways go unresponded to where later thread phrased a different way gets many hits.

For instance...this morning, my wife yells: "Where are my keys?" from the bottom of the stairs. Now, an instinct is to yell back "I don't know!" and roll over to go back to sleep (of course I didn't!) whereas "Can you help me find my keys?" would inspire one get up and aide the damsel in distress!

Please and Thank You still work, and cursing... let alone going to the trouble to type it- are the language of the ignorant, uneducated and ungrateful.

Not to seem holier than thou, I just don't see a need for it here. I try to avoid it in my life. If you could smell the words people use you would stay clear of some of them, right?

your are correct....Questions with... "tact"... will always get a better response..

quote Originally posted by USFiero: I've noticed that a couple 'slightly' offensive words (or even phrases) seem to escalate into horrid name-calling flame threads that Cliff ends up locking down and tossing in the trash. A waste of bandwidth. My peev: ettiquette! I've noticed requests that are worded certian ways go unresponded to where later thread phrased a different way gets many hits. For instance...this morning, my wife yells: "Where are my keys?" from the bottom of the stairs. Now, an instinct is to yell back "I don't know!" and roll over to go back to sleep (of course I didn't!) whereas "Can you help me find my keys?" would inspire one get up and aide the damsel in distress! Please and Thank You still work, and cursing... let alone going to the trouble to type it- are the language of the ignorant, uneducated and ungrateful. Not to seem holier than thou, I just don't see a need for it here. I try to avoid it in my life. If you could smell the words people use you would stay clear of some of them, right?

Well said, perfect!!!!!!!!!!

For those whose response is "well... you shouldn't be surfing PFF at work" - come on... that's just BS. I don't mean to be harsh, but you don't know the 1st thing about my workplace environment! It just so happens that, in my office, it's accepted that we can surf the web for person things (in moderation) while working - as long as it doesn't interfere with our work schedule (and it doesn't - if I'm busy... I don't post as much). It's one of the benefits my employer affords me, and it's one of my benefits being the IT/SysAdmin guy. It's just that simple.

As for the "bouncing" image... I too feel that it's inappropriate - not even necessarily because of it's content - but because Cliff specifically stated no animations in signatures.

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 03-26-2004).]

quote Originally posted by USFiero: Please and Thank You still work, and cursing... let alone going to the trouble to type it- are the language of the ignorant, uneducated and ungrateful.

Very well said.

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: It's one of the benefits my employer affords me, and it's one of my benefits being the IT/SysAdmin guy. It's just that simple.

Same here, Minn. It's kinda like paying firefighters who work a shift even though there was no fire that day.

[This message has been edited by Stinkin_V8 (edited 03-26-2004).]

quote Originally posted by USFiero: and cursing... let alone going to the trouble to type it- are the language of the ignorant, uneducated and ungrateful.

I’m glad to know how you feel about me.

I have worked in the automotive or motorcycle repair industry most of my life.
Repair shops, machine shops, parts stores, dealerships.

And profanity is completely acceptable in normal conversation amongst ourselves. The only time it becomes an issue is if there are customers present, or if it’s said in anger.

------------------
Buddy - there are two "G"s in my name
Ling = 84SE-350-N2O-Poly-Mr.Mike seats-Sequential turn signals-short shifter
Julia C = 85GT stock (kinda)
KCFOG

quote Originally posted by AndyLPhoto: Try surfing the forum from a public library, or a high school computer lab, or at the office, where a filter kicks in and won't show certain posts or index pages and you'll find out how annoying it is.

I got the filter effect just this morning too..... On my way home from a vacation in Arizona and California, I was at the Phoenix airport, and was paying $0.25 a minute to check out a few of my favorite forums (yes, including PFF). Sure I'm a geek, but a week away from the forums I just couldn't resist.... Anyway, a topic on another car forum wouldn't get past the censors, and all I could get was a warning on the screen that there was some sort of adult content on that page. So you can bet that was the first thing I looked at when I got home, and there was really nothing bad there - just the word "female" used once in just one post. Talk about a censor that was a little too thorough!

I have that shirt too

Sometimes I joke around and tell them it stands for "Wildlife Trustee Fund".. others i say "use your imagination"

I love that shirt

James Z

quote Originally posted by donk316: I WEAR A SHIRT THAT SAYS......"WTF?" DAMN RIGHTS!

------------------

"I'm reading"

------------------

88GT/Auto/Beechwood Leather/SunRoof/Wing/Sub-Woofer/w-EQ/225/45/17 Michelin Pilots/All Opts Ex.T-Tops

<<< <<< <<< <<< < Pix of my GT /- -/ Pix of my Vettes> >>> >>> >>> >>>
*** *** *** *** *** * "If you appreciate my contribution,..please rate me, Thanks"* *** *** *** *** ***

[This message has been edited by 2000RagTop (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: For those whose response is "well... you shouldn't be surfing PFF at work" - come on... that's just BS. I don't mean to be harsh, but you don't know the 1st thing about my workplace environment! It just so happens that, in my office, it's accepted that we can surf the web for person things (in moderation) while working - as long as it doesn't interfere with our work schedule (and it doesn't - if I'm busy... I don't post as much). It's one of the benefits my employer affords me, and it's one of my benefits being the IT/SysAdmin guy. It's just that simple.

Agreed. In my personal situation, in addition to administrating most of our office computers, my primary job is being on-air in radio. As long as the radio station is on the air, I am doing my job. That I'm surfing at the same time is not an issue. It's simply a product of a particular work environment. Obviously, some work environments don't lend themselves to that type of activity, but many of us are afforded that privilege. Obviously, some people have jobs where there is even more "down time" than mine--somebody's got to be there, but there's not much going on.

That kind of argument is akin to posting huge images and saying, "well, if you don't like it, then you should get a broadband connnection." Obviously, one size doesn't fit all.

First I would like to apologize for my poor word choice in
my topic entitled "Bad *** Getrag rebuild" or something like
that. Sorry. I didn't know it would cause people problems.
Next time it'll be "heavy-duty" instead of "bad ***"
My apologies to anybody that was inconvenienced by this poor
choice of words.

As far as the posting at work goes...at my work I can post a lot
because my job is "sit, wait, deal with a hundred problems in one
minute, and then sit and wait again."
Half the people here read books, the other half surf. Kind of like a
firefighter, just less extreme for me.

I could easily see teachers surfing a lot and not having it interfere with
their work. I am going into teaching, and from what I've seen I would be
bored out of my mind if I didn't have something to do whilst students were
busy doing an assignment or what not. Give them a break yall.

quote Originally posted by DustoneGT: First I would like to apologize for my poor word choice in my topic entitled "Bad *** Getrag rebuild" or something like that. Sorry. I didn't know it would cause people problems. Next time it'll be "heavy-duty" instead of "bad ***" My apologies to anybody that was inconvenienced by this poor choice of words.

I gave you a plus for that.

I am amazed at the attitude of those that seem to think they have the right to offend others. I work in a shop enviroment too, I have always felt that those that constantly used foul language were simply demonstrating to others that they were to ignorant to master language properly.