quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: yes its just you. The purpose of mounting the engine "backwards" is to stick the weight of the tranny and half the engine in front of the rear wheels [This message has been edited by GTFiero1 (edited 08-22-2003).]

Unless there is something unusual going on inside that differential, what is labeled as the "front of car" in the pic above is going to be actually in the "rear of the car". Am I correct in this, Cardealer?

quote Originally posted by revin: huh looks like you have some "JUNK in the trunk"

Now you're speaking my language!

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Updated: 8/18/03 Check out some of my rides:
http://shawn.ccicom.com

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: Unless there is something unusual going on inside that differential, what is labeled as the "front of car" in the pic above is going to be actually in the "rear of the car". Am I correct in this, Cardealer?

nope, fallow the whole thread. He switched the gearing so he could mount it that way.

Notice the lack of distributer but a water neck facing you? Also notice in the other pic the nitrous rail is mounted on the front of the engine and its facing you in this pic

[This message has been edited by GTFiero1 (edited 08-27-2003).]

I have been following this thread closely but I didn't see where cardealer had switched the gears around in the differential. I know he had custom ratio gears made but he never said anything about reversing the helix. I had a quote from a gear cutter to do that and he wanted $3500 to do it. Cardealer said in one post that his gears cost like $1200 so I figured they weren't reversed.

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 08-27-2003).]

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: I have been following this thread closely but I didn't see where cardealer had switched the gears around in the differential. I know he had custom ratio gears made but he never said anything about reversing the helix. I had a quote from a gear cutter to do that and he wanted $3500 to do it. Cardealer said in one post that his gears cost like $1200 so I figured they weren't reversed.

As far as I can tell from reading, his entire point in doing this install was the reverse rotation:

quote all by cardealer: 3/4. th425 in reverse (very midengine) rotation. 3.70 final drive ratio. ...i should have a much easier way for the reverse rotation method, but i am still working out the details. 7. my own design. although the reversed rotation opens a few hurdles, its a lot less to do to the cradle. it fits very nice backards, standard position... forget it, unless you are building a wheelie car!!!!! all along i have keep telling you.. "hold on, wait a little more". there is a very good reason for this, trust me! i am in the final production stage of making the reversed rotation system so simple. i am waiting on a few custom manufactured pieces and finish the install for the testing of this product. with everything i want to do now, (adding more everyday) & delays in waiting for my transmission parts, & alot of r&d, i am now behind schedule. i need hopefully, 30 more days for completion. 2. forget the front foward mounting its requires way to much work on the cradle. and it just sits way too far back.

But, he doesn't specifically mention any details about reversing the Diff... that's apparantly up to you to figure out

you guys must have missed the post on how i do the reverse method: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/031409.html

now see how easy that is!!!!!!!

the final drive is not custom, it comes from a motorhome supply company. the gears come in 3.50s and 3.70s around $1000.00 to 1300.00 plus core deposit.
stay tuned......

OOOOOH I SEE!!!!

neat.

One thing, doesn't having the whole transmission assembly spinning backwards mess with the brake bands? and the Sprag units? They are designed to work only one way. I know the pump is still ok because its still on the torque converter side. Just curious.
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84 Indy fiero Quad 4 HO (almost done!!)
85 2m? Getting parted out soon
Silver 88 GT, Newest addiction.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 08-28-2003).]

Cardealer, I completely missed that thread. Looks great, have you tested it at all yet?

all of the parts inside the tranny are bi-directional and fictrion material. if your transmission has foward and a reverse gear it can run backward with out any problem. there are few other ways to get the th425 to run backwards, but they are much more difficult to do.

i havent tested it on a engine yet, but it has been on a transmission bench tester. the gears were a bit noisy, but the machine that hooks up to the transmission is electric so it dont make as much noise as a engine would. so its kinda hard to tell how much noise will be dectected behind a monster engine. but all the gear pressures were fine when it was tested.

i almost finished the oil pan last night, but i ran out of wire for my welder at 11:00pm , so i will get some more today and finish tonight. i am planning to do the install this weekend.

Cardealer, about the oil pan, the engine is a 3.48" stroke right? How much clearance do you have between the crank and the pan and the pan and the axle? I haven't started my pan mods yet but I was thinking about using a tube wleded inside the pan that I can pass the axle through. Are you doing something similar or are you notching the pan for axle clearance?

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: Cardealer, about the oil pan, the engine is a 3.48" stroke right? How much clearance do you have between the crank and the pan and the pan and the axle? I haven't started my pan mods yet but I was thinking about using a tube wleded inside the pan that I can pass the axle through. Are you doing something similar or are you notching the pan for axle clearance?

with a standard adapter plate the output shaft will be going right under the main cap. but thick as the output shaft is is doesnt take much to ge in the way of #3 and #4 rod on a 350 even worse on a 400 block. its kinda diffucult to do but if you take your time it can be done. i did mine by making a half circle at the top then cutting out the bottom all the way across. then i got a piece of sheet metal and shaped it with a piece of tubing i had left over from my roll cage, making a horseshoe shape. just a few tips i can give you:

get a brand new steel oil pan, they weld easier.

if your not a real good tig welder have someone eles tig it or braze it.

if you tig it yourself, spotweld the whole thing, just make little spot welds connecting the entire area that needs welding then come back and lay your beads.

get the oil pan to fit on the engine first before you cut it. sometimes the oil pan needs a few wacks with the hammer on the trans side to clear the diff.

use a slightly big sheet of metal to make the shape then weld it to the pan then trim it down when the welding is complete.

thats all i can think of now on the pan. a question for you-
if you flip the diff does it raise the out put shaft higher? if it does the shaft may not clear the internals of the engine.(?)
i will post a pic of the oilpan tonight when i finsh it.

quote Originally posted by cardealer: a question for you- if you flip the diff does it raise the out put shaft higher? if it does the shaft may not clear the internals of the engine.(?)

Thanks for the tips. Actually, flipping the diff lowers the axles slightly. Granted, this is not ideal beacuse it places the engine slightly higher in the car also. I am thinking of using a 327 because I have one with a steel crank and I know that it clears the axle but was wondering about a 350 or something with a larger stroke.

Dam that thing ain't done yet??????
heh heh heh

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98 3800SC GTP motor, 5sp.
custom hood,trunk,side scoops,IRM front spoiler, dk.Shadow Grey

Cardealer (or anyone else who can answer the question),

From your picture and description, it looks like you replaced the chain drive with gears to reverse the rotation of the transmission. If the transmission can run in reverse rotation, why not just leave the transmission stock and make the motor run in reverse? All that would be needed is a different camshaft and distributer gear. Whouldn't it be cheaper and just as effective?

Also, by reversing the transmission you're also running the "pumpkin" backwards. Are you worried about the gears since they were cut to run the "other" way?

I love the idea of the reverse setup. It effectively placed the motor weight above the axle and the whole transmission in front to keep the CG in the center of the car and maintain most of its mid-engine type handling.

Keep up the good work,

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Roy

double-click on this link to follow my interior build-up
[URL=https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/023174.html]
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/031255.html
*** UPDATED 1/24/03 ***

Aslo Check: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/023174.html

Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior.
Suncoast Fieros

Judged "Best Custom Interior" at the 20th Anniversary Show - 7/2003

quote Originally posted by mrfixit58: Cardealer (or anyone else who can answer the question), From your picture and description, it looks like you replaced the chain drive with gears to reverse the rotation of the transmission. If the transmission can run in reverse rotation, why not just leave the transmission stock and make the motor run in reverse? All that would be needed is a different camshaft and distributer gear. Whouldn't it be cheaper and just as effective? Also, by reversing the transmission you're also running the "pumpkin" backwards. Are you worried about the gears since they were cut to run the "other" way? I love the idea of the reverse setup. It effectively placed the motor weight above the axle and the whole transmission in front to keep the CG in the center of the car and maintain most of its mid-engine type handling. Keep up the good work,

well for a couple reasons:
very poor selection of grinds of camshafts and mostly marine fittings.
you still need to get a starter to start it backwards.
a custom cam and dist gear and a starter is more than a $1000.00 i can build the gear drive for less $350.00.

he is a pic as of this morning ready for install this weekend:

quote Originally posted by mrfixit58: Cardealer (or anyone else who can answer the question), From your picture and description, it looks like you replaced the chain drive with gears to reverse the rotation of the transmission. If the transmission can run in reverse rotation, why not just leave the transmission stock and make the motor run in reverse? All that would be needed is a different camshaft and distributer gear. Whouldn't it be cheaper and just as effective? Also, by reversing the transmission you're also running the "pumpkin" backwards. Are you worried about the gears since they were cut to run the "other" way? I love the idea of the reverse setup. It effectively placed the motor weight above the axle and the whole transmission in front to keep the CG in the center of the car and maintain most of its mid-engine type handling. Keep up the good work,

You cannot just reverse the rotation of the engine because the tranny pump is designed to rotate only one way. That is why Cardealer is changing the direction of the tranny after the pump/torque converter. In my setup, I opted to rotate the differential, thus keeping all the internal tranny parts rotating in the direction they were designed to go. I had some conflicting opinions on whether or not you could rotate some of the components in the opposite direction, evidently Cardealer has proven that it can be done this way and his method seems to be a good one but I would have had trouble justifing the cost of those gears. I think my budget is smaller than his.
As for the diff rotating in reverse when the car is moving forward, yes there is some concern about that but if you look at the internals of the diff, it is different than a typical GM 10 or 12 bolt style gearcase. the pinion gear is much closer to the centerline of the ring gear so when its rotated it doesn't move in position too much and the gears inside are also very heavy-duty, they are about the same size as a GM 12 bolt, in fact I think they have the same overall dimensions. I think the major difference one would see running these gears in reverse would probably be some more gear noise and little else. I guess we won't know until we actually put these experiments in "drive" but that's just the way it goes. Cardealer should know before I do, he is much further along, my tranny and axles should be installed this weekend but I still have to finish the engine. I am debating just using an old engine just to see if it all works.

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: Cardealer...looks great. Have you noticed how much room you have from the bottom of the pan to where the bottom of the tranny pan is? You could make that rear sump on the oil pan a couple of inches deeper without any interference and gain a couple of quarts of oil capacity. All in all, looks great, please keep us all posted. [This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 08-29-2003).]

no the bottom of that pan needs a little customizing with a hammer to on the bottom to clear the transmission. i couldnt find any pan that would fit getting me 7 quarts, i had to settle with it being a 6 quart. heres another pic the last one isnt the one i wanted to post:

Are those truck headers?

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: Are those truck headers?

They look like the shorty headers that are currently being offered. There are some pretty good pictures in the Jegs catalog.

Thanks for clearing up the tranny pump issue.

cardealer - I'm a little surprised about your cost estimate about the reverse camshaft since the marine industry is booming. Regardless, it wouldn't help if the pump can only run forward.

You said that you could build the drive gear for $350. Is that your cost or is that cost available to anyone? Or, is that what we're "just wait"ing on?

Looking at your oil pan... did you consider using a front sump pan? They were commonly used for the 62-65 Chevy Novas. There may be pan clearance issues in the front that prohibit it but, if not, it could be another option. You would have to build a custom pick-up tube to go around the axle notch.

This is cool stuff,
Roy

quote Originally posted by mrfixit58: This is cool stuff, Roy

It sure is and it's nice to hear encouragement from others on this forum. At first I felt like some kind of outcast for thinking about doing this swap and eventually found others thinking the same thing. I realize it's not everyone's "cup of tea" but that doesn't make it any less significant when you see how much work is really involved in this type of swap.

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: ... I realize it's not everyone's "cup of tea" but that doesn't make it any less significant when you see how much work is really involved in this type of swap.

Yea, same for my interior project. Details take time... and lots of it.

I think that longitudinal swap are sweet. Personally, if I were going to buid one, I would build the revers-rotation like you guys are doing. With most of the weight in from of the axles the car should still handle realy good. One thing that Hulki said at the 20th show was: "the unique thing about the mid engine car is that added weight has litte effect on the way the car handles. All you need is more tire". Since yours will be going up in smoke, make that "tires".

Roy

Mrfixit...I love your interior work, really puts the interior of the car into the 21st century. I can imagine the amout of work that went into that.

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: Are those truck headers?

v8 s10 swap headers

quote [B]Originally posted by cardealer: v8 s10 swap headers

I thougth so. I was looking at the same type headers. What's your plan for exhaust? straight duals? I was thinking a Y pipe with a big cat (need that on long island) and then a muffler similar to a late model camaro that splits into duals. Or maybe just run a single pipe because my facia is an 84 and I don't plan on having as much engine sticking out as you do, I'm goingto go with a TPI setup with a small hood scoop to try to get a bit of a sleeper look. You obviously don't give a sh*t about sleeper looks...

quote Originally posted by cardealer: tony_c heres the oil pan:

wont you need really 2 drain plugs? One for the front half and one for the back half? I think a lot of oil will be held in the front part do to that modification when changing the oil

quote [B]Originally posted by GTFiero1: wont you need really 2 drain plugs? One for the front half and one for the back half? I think a lot of oil will be held in the front part do to that modification when changing the oil

I agree, although probably less than a quart will be held back. In fact the Olds and Caddy pans used with the TH425 tranny did have two drain plugs for that very reason.

edited to say looking again at the pan it will probably be much more than one quart.

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 08-29-2003).]

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: [QUOTE][B]Originally posted by GTFiero1: wont you need really 2 drain plugs? One for the front half and one for the back half? I think a lot of oil will be held in the front part do to that modification when changing the oil

I agree, although probably less than a quart will be held back. In fact the Olds and Caddy pans used with the TH425 tranny did have two drain plugs for that very reason.

edited to say looking again at the pan it will probably be much more than one quart.

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 08-29-2003).][/QUOTE]

what??? you mean to tell me you have to put oil in the motor.... oops....
well everytime i change the oil in the fireo i either jack it up from the back or back it up on ramps. the angle on the car should be enough to get most of the oil out of the pan.

tony_c exhaust is true 3" dual exhaust through 2 - 3" flowmasters. i will post a pic of the exhaust maybe next week after i get the motor in.

heres a pic as of today......

should be finished in about 2 more weeks.

come one, thats the only pic your gonna give us? I dont know about the rest of you guys but i feel im getting a little fipped-off here.

Any room for the belt of a 6-71 in there? Alwyas thought that a longitudinal v-8 with a nice big shiney supercharger in the back with a hilborne scoop mounted to the carbs sticking up over the roof would look totally badass, especially if it had a chop top

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: come one, thats the only pic your gonna give us? I dont know about the rest of you guys but i feel im getting a little fipped-off here. Any room for the belt of a 6-71 in there? Alwyas thought that a longitudinal v-8 with a nice big shiney supercharger in the back with a hilborne scoop mounted to the carbs sticking up over the roof would look totally badass, especially if it had a chop top

its funny you mention a 6-71. yesterday afternoon i was cleaning out the garage with the car sitting out front. my local sheriff was driving by, he went to the end of my street and turned around and pulled up in my driveway. i was thinking "great", i havnt even been driving and im going to jail. the sheriff said he just wanted to stop by and see the car. (wipes the sweet from forehead)
but anyway he was telling me that his brother used to drag race jet boats in the 1980's and has a shop full of oldsmobile 455's, a couple of 6-71s, ect that is just sitting there and he is looking to get rid of everything to make room for his new bass boat. i got his phone number but he is out of town for the holiday, but bet me i will be calling tuesday a.m...... to answer your question- yes there is plenty of room for a 6-71 belt. i will take a few more pics today.

I was looking at your oil pan, and I too had a bit of concern. Aside from the amount of oil that will be held back in the upper section, reducing your effective pan capacity, do your rod and crank throws go down below the top of the notch? If so, you will have problems with oil aeration that would increase the risk of sucking air into your oiling system and grenading your motor. You might want to consider welding in a couple of bungs on either side of that notch and running a drain tube to get the oil out of that upper section. The tube can be a simple steel tube with fitting on eather end, bent into a U to clear the driveshaft.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I was looking at your oil pan, and I too had a bit of concern. Aside from the amount of oil that will be held back in the upper section, reducing your effective pan capacity, do your rod and crank throws go down below the top of the notch? If so, you will have problems with oil aeration that would increase the risk of sucking air into your oiling system and grenading your motor. You might want to consider welding in a couple of bungs on either side of that notch and running a drain tube to get the oil out of that upper section. The tube can be a simple steel tube with fitting on eather end, bent into a U to clear the driveshaft. JazzMan

i am using milodon windage tray and crank wiper to prevent just that problem. if you dont use a windage tray, i would think that there may be reason for concern. i also added some extra baffles to keep the oil in the back at the sump. the tube idea sounds good, but depending on size of the orfice it may do more harm than good.

The windage tray will keep oil from splashing on the crank, but if the throws and rod ends go below the notch the windage tray will be submerged in liquid oil and won't keep the crank out of the pool of oil. If the throws don't reach the top of the notch then the point is moot.

JazzMan

You must be congratuated on a nice and ultraneat ( and ultrafast) V8 swap. By matching a powerful V8 to a high strength transmission, the combimation is also bound to be reliable.
I have two questions and please do not get the idea that they are intended to flame. I really like your Fiero but I am just curious.
1. What is the new weight of the Fiero?
2. If you take your Fiero to a show out of state with your girlfriend or wife, and do an "overnighter" where do you keep your spare and luggage?

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by cardealer:

I know Revin's in some deeeeeeep sh!t now.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA