Page 3 BEE-YOTCH!

How goes it, Scott? Did you and the Bear get it back in tonight?

Yea the AIR's gota go, take the HP's
O-yea, I live in NY so it's allways cold!!!
Wish I could drive my car all year-round!!!!!
Nice job almost done!

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Well good news, bad news, and really bad news.
Good news: The engine is completely assembled and ready to rock.
Bad news: We couldn't find the right clutch alighner and our Macgyver efforts did not work.
Really Bad news: I will not meet my 1 week deadline. We can't get the engine and transmission together, so we can't get it on the cradle, so we can't get it in the car.

The silver lining: Bear can come back, with the right tool, during the week next week and hopefully we can get reinforcements from Toddster and Brian to help. If we can get the engine and tranny together, we'll be good to go. Bolt them together, bolt it to the cradle, connect a few things, put it in the car, connect a few more things, and its done. Its one days work with the right tools.

BIG THANK YOU TO STIMPY AND ERIC FOR THIER HELP.
BIG HUGE THANK YOU TO BEAR FOR ALL HIS WORK AND CONTINUING TO HELP ME LATER ON TO GET THIS DONE.
It means soooooooo much to me guys, thank you again!

I will post pics later tonight. I need to unwind after this, so me and Eric are going to a movie.

Looks like an engine. I'd swear that the 2.8 has the most vacume lines of any fuel injected engine I'v ever seen!!! Kick up your feet and have a few adult beverages. Joe

Man just missed your last post. sorry to hear about the set back. Make that several adult beverages!!! These things happen. Hang in there. Joe

As promised, some pics and a brief update for tonight.

I'm rather bummed cause I got my hopes up about being able to take the car for a test spin tonight. One more reason I'm thinking I should name my car "Murphy." There is good new, in that the engine is totally ready to go and cranks over good. My clutch looks mighty nice too. All the work thats left to be done can be done in one day, given the right tools. All we needed was a clutch alignment tool, but apparently thats too much to ask from the Car Gods.

No matter. I start college again Monday, so I won't be meeting my 1 week goal. It was a pretty lofty goal considering this is the largest project I've ever done by a fairly long shot. Fierobear is set to come back down later this week and hopefully we can get either Brian, Todd, or both out here to help. Brian should still have the correct clutch aligner. Once we get it on the tranny, we bolt it to the cradle, attach a few things, bolt it into the car, attach a few more things, and I'm ready to rock. Hopefully by the end of the week I will once again have a funcional Fiero.

For now, the project is pretty much on hold. Tomarrow I'll start cleaning up the garage, organizing the tools, and put the spare tire tub back in and close up the front end. Hopefully, Bear and I will get something worked out with Todd and/or Brian and get some help out here to get this done. I will post again as soon as I have something to update you all on.

Till then, I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has to the best of my ability. Fire away! Till then, here's tonights progress pics.

First one is by request, it is how the new clutch line arrived to me today from The Fiero Store. It was bent in half and placed in a nice big box and very easy to straighten out and install. I can't forget to say that THE FIERO STORE ROCKS!!! Justin gave me the 10% PFF discount and overnighted it so I got it and installed it the very next day. You're awesome Justin!

A progress pic from the middle of the day. Thats Fierobear taking a well earned break.

Here's a pic of the completed engine waiting to be mounted.

And this is how my garage looks at the end of day 6.

Another BIG THANKS to Fierobear for all his hard work, Eric for all his help, and Stimpy for helping out and polishing my tips and spark plug wires. They look down right purdy now!

[This message has been edited by Fastback 86 (edited 04-11-2004).]

All in all I would have rather been there with a few friends and some cold suds. Curse me for marrying a Catholic girl! She actually expects me to , you know, thank God for sh!t on Easter weekend.

Anyway, I may have some time next week. I wish I knew ahead of time that you didn't have a clutch alignment tool. I have a spare I would have given you when Bear was here Saturday Morn.

BTW, did you start on the bushings yet?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Well good news, bad news, and really bad news. Bad news: We couldn't find the right clutch alighner and our Macgyver efforts did not work.

Let me guess, a broom stick did not work as an aligning tool?

quote Originally posted by Hank is Here: Let me guess, a broom stick did not work as an aligning tool?

Oh no, it was much more Macgyverd than that. We tried to line the clutch up right where it had been before and tighten it down. Basically just sighted it. We think we got the clutch onto the splined shaft, but because of the angles the engine and tranny were at we couldn't quite get it all the way on to the tranny.

Yeah Todd, Bear didn't even think of it till it was time to put the clutch on the flywheel. My schedule next week is pretty open. I'm in class and doing stuff all day Monday, Tuesday through Thursday I get out at 12.30 and have the rest of the day, and Friday I just have something first thing in the morning. Any of those works for me. Bear likes the idea of coming down in the middle of the day, and is going on the Truckee Run next weekend, so any of those days in the middle of the week would be good, just let me know.

bummer, most clutch sets come with the tool nowadays. Wish you were closer, I probably have several of them

Hey Bear! I just talked to my dads professional mechanic friend and he has a procedure he said works MUCH better for getting the engine and tranny to mate. He said that the method we were using will work, but it can damage the splined shaft and the clutch, as we saw. He said what we need to do is engage the clutch. With the tranny in gear or in neutral, the clutch is still disengaged and theres a LOT of spring force holding the clutch back against the tranny so the driveline is engaged. What we need to do is relieve that pressure on the clutch and the engine and tranny will slip together easily.

What we do is this:
Alighn the clutch (given)
Engage clutch, either by hooking it up to the car and pressing the clutch pedal, or by manually pushing the lever on the tranny itself and engaging the clutch.
One person holds the lever, keeping the clutch engaged and the pressure off it
The other person pushes the engine into the tranny
With the clutch engaged the engine should pop right in no problem.

He said this is a much better procedure and almost guarenteed to make the engine and tranny go together quickly and smoothly and thats how he always did it on every car he worked on where he had to get the engine and trans back together and it always worked.

Make sure your 3.4 block doesn't have a pilot bearing in it. The Fiero tranny doesn't use it and it will prevent the spline shaft from going into the engine and your tranny won't mate up with the engine.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-11-2004).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Make sure your 3.4 block doesn't have a pilot bearing in it. The Fiero tranny doesn't use it and it will prevent the spline shaft from going into the engine and your tranny won't mate up with the engine.

Yeah, we figured that one out. I was test fitting the different bits for the universal clutch tool we picked up, and discovered the bushing made the cavity too small for the transmission spline. After some more measuring, we figured out that the bushing had to go, and removed it.

The other problem I think we were having is that we were trying to mate a hanging engine to a static transmission, attached to the cradle. I'd never done it that way before. Also, I'd never put a tranny back on an engine with the old clutch. Normally, if you're going to go to the trouble to pull out a transmission, you replace the clutch. Scott is on a budget, that's why he doesn't have a new clutch, thus no clutch tool.

We'll get this damn thing done this week. I'm determined, now.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Make sure your 3.4 block doesn't have a pilot bearing in it. The Fiero tranny doesn't use it and it will prevent the spline shaft from going into the engine and your tranny won't mate up with the engine.

Yup, Bear and I found that guy and pulled him out.

I took a look at the trans today and it looks like Jesse (the mechanic) is right. The clutch fork seemed to get stuck without the clutch, pressure plate, clutch line, and etc connected. I was able to get it moving, but I gotta finagle it so it doesn't get stuck when you engage the clutch. This looks like the problem right there. If someone gets the clutch engaged and the fork and such out of the way, the engine should pop right in easy.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: What we do is this: Alighn the clutch (given) Engage clutch, either by hooking it up to the car and pressing the clutch pedal, or by manually pushing the lever on the tranny itself and engaging the clutch. One person holds the lever, keeping the clutch engaged and the pressure off it The other person pushes the engine into the tranny With the clutch engaged the engine should pop right in no problem.

Hey, I'm always up for learning a better, faster way. We'll give it a shot. If Todd can make it, I'm sure we could use his expertise to speed things up. So far, I can make it any day but Monday or Friday.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Hey, I'm always up for learning a better, faster way. We'll give it a shot. If Todd can make it, I'm sure we could use his expertise to speed things up. So far, I can make it any day but Monday or Friday.

Whatever works for Todd then. Tuesday through thursday any time after about 12.40 is good for me! Read my last post too about what I found out checking out the trans today, I think this new method will work perfect.

Schedule looks rough this week. I have to go to Sacramento Tomorrow, Wednesday is an all day meeting, Thursday and Friday are total write-offs. Tuesday Is the only day with timer available, and only for a few hours, say 9-1.

Work for you?

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Schedule looks rough this week. I have to go to Sacramento Tomorrow, Wednesday is an all day meeting, Thursday and Friday are total write-offs. Tuesday Is the only day with timer available, and only for a few hours, say 9-1. Work for you?

Tuesday is fine for me, but Scott has school until around 12:30. Any chance you can do it in the afternoon, instead?

Yeah unfortunately I have classes from 8:30 to 12:30 Tuesday through Thursday.

I mated my engine to the tranny by myself. It was a huge PITA. I left the tranny mounts loose so I could wiggle the trany a bit. It probably would help if you can get the axles in, to trun the tranny and help line up the splines, otherwise you need to turn the enigne side to side to accomplish this. Good luck, it sounds like you are alomost done. Don't forget to do a fuel pressure leak check on you fuel lines before you run the engine, especially the cold start injector. They are known to leak where the small tube connects to the fuel rail. Also don't forget to tripple check all of your vacuum hose connecttions. It is real easy to forget the ones under the throttle body and upper plenum. Your car will idle real high and your exhaust will turn cherry red real quick.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Yeah unfortunately I have classes from 8:30 to 12:30 Tuesday through Thursday.

Drat the luck! Afternoon is no good. I have to show a house in Hollister at 3:00. Maybe Later in the week. If I juggle a few things I may be able to make time Thursday or Friday. Gimme a day to look into it.

My whole week is open when I'm not in class, so just let me know. You can call my cell at 831-566-8136 if you want to. I'll keep checking here and my PMs too.

I checked out the trans and I noticed that the disc that moves on the splined shaft and actually engages/disengages the clutch doesn't like to move without pressure on it. I tried just moving the clutch fork manually but it didn't want to go. I evened out that disc and pressed against it and pushed the clutch fork from the outside and it slid right back out of the way. This tells me that Bear and I had it right, that this guy just wouldn't move back out of the way and thats what was keeping the engine and trans from going together.

I'm really optimistic about this. I think we can get it all done in an afternoon with the right people and tools. Get the engine and trans together, bolt it all down, connect a few things, do the aluminum cradle bushings, stick it all back in the car, connect a few more things, bleed the clutch and check a few things like fuel pressure, timing, etc and we'll be ready to rock. With 2 or 3 people working on it we should be able to knock it out in a few hours.

Thursday can work but it will have to be later. 2:00 at the earliest. I'll fudge it as much as I can.

Be sure to send me an address that I can mapquest.

I am enjoying the saga. Keep us informed.

Saga is almost at an end. We got the engine mated with the tranny and mounted on the cradle and put it back in the car today. I had to leave for family time but they were bleeding the clutch line and getting ready to put the wheels back on when I left around 6:00pm.

We also installed a set of Daryll Morse Aluminum cradle bushings so the handling should improve dramatically. BTW Scott when ever you can get around to ordering a set to replace mine you can contact Daryll at morse86@aol.com

OK, now back to MY projects !

A longer update tonight, I'm just taking a dinner break right now, and yes I know its 9PM. The car is almost ready to rock. The clutch line is bled, almost everythings connected, and when we dropped it it didnt seem to hurt anything THANK GOD. More on that later tonight. Hopefully I'll be able to tell you that it started and ran! Ok, food time.

Ok, here we go.

The engine is in the car! The engine and trans went together easily once we took the slave cylinder off and got the pressure off the clutch fork. Having the correct clutch alignment tool was good too! Thanks Brian! As it happens, we eyeballed it pretty good and it was pretty close. Once it was on, we just had to bolt it down and put on the A/C and a few other misc things. Before we did all that, we put on Darrell Morse aluminum cradle bushings. Can't wait to go for a drive with those babies on there! Thanks again Todd! I'll get you new ones, I just hope you don't need them right away.

Ok, so engine is on the cradle. Next step, get it back in the car. I was amazed at how easily it went back in. I thought it was gonna be a PITA to get it lined up and in the right spot, but it was actually pretty painless. Once it was in, Todd reattaced the brakes and such while Bear and I ran to the store for coolant and clutch fluid. Todd found out why my E brake wasn't working right: the cable on the drivers side is stuck in the tube. No wonder it doesn't work right. Still working on that, it doesn't want to come free. Todd had to take off, so Bear and I went about getting the motor all hooked up and getting the car back together.

On the down side, we did drop the car. We just needed to lift it for a minute to put the wheels on, and we had to do it with the hoist because with the dolly under there, there was no place to put the floor jack. Unfortunately, the added weight of the motor, trans, cradle, etc. was a problem. The hoist was over extended and the wheels were not chocked, so once we got it up the car started to shift to one side and one of the back corners of the hoist came up off the floor. This is with me and 2 concrete piers on it for counterweight. The car made a *fairly* smoothe landing and I went for a ride. We got lucky and nothing appeared to be damaged and we were able to get it up on the jack stands reletively easily.

Bleeding the clutch was fun...NOT. My legs are still tired from pumping the pedal so many times. We thought the line was leaking at the slave cylinder and were just about to give up on it when we discovered the bleeder valve was leaking a little, not the line, and a little more torque took care of it. Bear had to take off after that, so I finished up connecting things, putting the batter back in, putting the wheel wells back in, etc etc.

Then it was the moment of truth. Eric and I tried to start it. We tried a bunch of times. No good. The fuel pump primed up, the engine cranked over, and it would catch for a split second then die. I got some advice from the Chat tonight so hopefully I can fix the timing tomarrow and we should be good to go. We think its just too far advanced. I was shooting for 11* cause I thought thats what I read, but it should be more like 9*. Hopefully tomarrow that will get taken care of.

Last thing is that the starter is not aligned right I think. It makes a high pitched screech for a split second when it disengages and the engine starts (or tries to in this case). I'm gonna mess with it and hopefully we can take care of that.

Picture time!

Heres the complete engine, trans, cradle and everything ready to go back in the car.

Another angle. I guarentee that this is the highest the back end will EVER get.

Hmm...well if it fits like a 2.8 and looks like a 2.8, then it must be...a 3.4 in disguise! Don't tell CARB!

A final shot of my garage for the night.

I'm soooooo close! Tomarrow after class, with a little help from my dad, hopefully I can get the timing set and get this baby running! I can't wait to go for her first drive. Between the 3.4, aluminum cradle bushings, and rear sway bar, this car should be very fun to drive. Speaking of class tomarrow, its 12:30 in the morning, so I really need to get my butt in bed. Till tomarrow!

Cool! Nice progress, there!

You'll really like how the car feels with the 3.4.

Mine was a pain to get cranked, too. I ended up having the timing too far retarded. Pretty much by an entire tooth.
Made the exhaust system glow beautifully, all the way down to the end of the Y-pipe.

quote Last thing is that the starter is not aligned right I think. It makes a high pitched screech for a split second when it disengages and the engine starts (or tries to in this case). I'm gonna mess with it and hopefully we can take care of that.

It could be that the shim is too thin. You might ask other 3.4 swappers what their experience has been with starter alignment.

I worked on 3 or 4 3.4 swaps at the Fiero Shop, and I don't recall having any problems with the starter. Fastback 86 mentioned that he had some kind of problem with drilling out the holes, and the bolts he ended up using were a non-standard size. Maybe something got misaligned in the process.

Nice work, it looks great. Like Oreif said, you will be happy with the 3.4's performance.

It feels so much better and the exhaust not is quite different too.

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-Chris

Custom Gun Metal 86 GT
***95 Camaro 3.4 swap, Ported and polished heads and intakes, CRX CAI, Custom Cam, steel vacuum lines, steel braided EGR tube, new Wire Harness, New Exhaust, No Cat, Flowmaster, polished poly dog bone. Isuzu 5 speed, Short through shifter
***Intrax 2" drop springs, Full Polly Suspension, Sencetrack Struts and Shocks, Grand AM brake upgrade, steel braided brake lines, 17" Gun Metal Wheels, Khumo Tires
***Racing Seats, SunPro tach w/ shift light, White face guages, carbon fiber Steering wheel, Carbon Fiber dash accents and custom sphere shift knob,

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I highly recommend renting a harmonic balancer installer. You can damge the balancer putting it on with a mallet.

I WAS KIDDING!!!!!!

So close, so close!!! Feel like you're an expectant mother and I'm an uncle or something... Can't wait to hear from you guys that you got it started and took it out and it burns rubber! Because that will be ALL the motivation i need to do the exact same thing!

3.4 SOON!

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Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

I had the same problem with my starter and 3.4 !!
I had to add a couple more shims, bought at autozone.
Now all is well the starter.

Thanks Dan I'll keep that in mind!

I'm going to work on getting it started first, then we'll play with the starter. I hate working with that thing in the car cause its so freakin heavy and you're working over head. Oh well, I'll get over it.

Hopefully my dad will get home early and we can get the timing fixed and be ready to go. If he gets home too late, it could be trouble cause I have to be in Santa Cruz at 5:15.

Scott, you don't even need to remove the starter, just loosen the bolts and shove an extra shim in on top of the existing one then retighten the bolts.

RRRRRrrrrrrrrr she won't start. Well, she won't keep running anyways. I've been playing with the distributor trying to get it to start and a couple of times it started for a few seconds, just barely running, then died. I can't even get it to do that again. Its soooo close, its trying to start, but I can't keep it going. I even tried pulling the dist. and moving it over 1 tooth in either direction to no avail. I advanced it by one and it seemed a little better, but then it went right back to what it was doing.

Should I try moving it more than 1 tooth? I don't think the timing is that off, but I'm open to any ideas right now. I can almost taste victory; this is killing me. Hey Todd, what are you doin tomarrow?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Hey Todd, what are you doin tomarrow?

I'm swamped man or I'd be there. If I get a lot done I may be able to come over Sunday but that's a big Maybe.

The best suggestion I have is that 99% of the problems with intial start-up have to do with timing.

The best way to go is to remove your coil wire and number 1 spark plug. Put your thumb over the plug hole and have a buddy crank the engine. when you feel compression stop cranking. Turn the crank by hand if necessary to get it as close to top dead center as you can. Put the plug back in. Now remove your disty cap. Your rotor should be pointing in the general direction of cyl # 1. If not adjust. If it is WAY out, remove and re-seat the disty. Now put the cap back on such that the wire for the number 1 cyl is right over the rotor. If you've done all this right you will be within 15 degrees of TDC, enough to get the engine started. REMEMBER, just because the piston is at the top does not mean you have TDC. It is a 4-stroke engine which means the piston comes to the top twice for each cycle.