Thanks for the help Todd. I've tried to get it back to TDC and reset the Dist. twice now and its really close again. It started and ran for a few seconds again and then died. It keeps trying to catch, but it can't quite. I'm gonna try a little Engine Start and see if that motivates it.

One more thougth, you did use the 3.4 fuel injectors, right? When you re-installed the wiring harness for the injectors did you mark them so as to get them back in the right order?

Yes and Yes. It will occasionally start for a few seconds, run weakly and die. Rest of the time it either just cranks or it pops like its trying but not quite getting it. How many notches are there on the harmonic balancer? I think I'm on the right one, right after I feel the air come out at TDC and its set to 9* about. I set the dist. to point at the smallest bolt on the upper plenum, pointing in the general direction of cylinder 1 and lining up perfectly with spark plug wire 1. I've checked the wires 3 times, I know they're in the right order and going to the right place. Maybe its 180* off?? I don't know. I'm gonna try a little engine start when my friend comes back over and see if that encourages it.

When it runs, how does it run. Rough?

The "pop" you describe...like a back fire? If so, timing is your culprit. Although there is the possibility that some of your injectors are bad. But let's not think about that just now. Test for spark. Take a plug out leave the wire on and crank the engine with the spark plug within a couple of millimeters of the block. You should see good sparking. (BTW, where rubber gloves when doing this).

If you have good spark and plenty of fuel it HAS to be timing.

Ok Todd and I talked on the phone tonight and we've got some ideas for getting the timing right. Unfortunately, it will have to wait until tomarrow afternoon.

Bear and Pokey, I'll call you guys tomarrow night if I can't get it and see if either of you is still available on Monday.

Sooooooo close, but yet sooooooooo far. Rrrr...

All for one...And one for all!

I'm free Tuesday. See you around 2:00

Many thanks again, Todd!

I can guarentee that without the help of this forum and the incredibly awesome people I have met via the forum I would have given up long ago on this car and bought another. Not only have I kept the car, but I've gone for a full blown engine swap. And now I'll get more help to finish it off instead of dumping the project and giving up.

Nothing makes my day like getting help from great people. Thank you everyone, and especially those who've put in special extra effort to help me with this project.

-Scott

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Well I'm damn near ready to give up on this. I don't know what the !@#$ is wrong with this !@#$ing motor; why it won't start. I've reset the timing at TDC half a dozen times and I'm getting nowhere. I don't know what else to do with it. This is so irratating. Toddster, Pokey, and fierobear you're all going to have a PM in a few minutes.

Know what futility is? It's when you know the outcome will be exactly the same as before, but you keep on trying the same thing anyway. SO STOP TRYING THE SAME THING. It's so simple. Sell me the car for $200; I'll be right over to get it. ;-)

Now, having had a problem every bit as annoying as yours, I have some advice for you. The first is general: STOP GUESSING. You have done yeoman's work so far. You got this far by knowing what you are doing, and when you didn't know, you got help.

The next is specific. Do exactly as I tell you. If you don't have the tools or gauges to do as I tell you, FIND THEM.

(1) Spark test. The best way to do this is to use a spark tester. They are available at any parts store for a few bucks. Pull any spark wire, hook up the tester, and check for spark. First, is it there? Second, is it strong? It should jump a gap and look white. If it's yellow, or worse, then we need to do a little more sleuthing. QUICK TIP: You could just pull the coil-to-cap wire and hook the tester directly to that. This tells you the state of the ignition upstream of the distributor.

(2) Fuel pressure test. If you don't have a pressure tester, get one or borrow one. Hook it up to the schraeder valve on the fuel rail. Have a buddy turn the key from Off to Run. The fuel pump should prime, and you should read about 45 psi of fuel pressure. Next, have your buddy crank the motor. Again, you should see about 45 psi.

(3) Fuel injector test. Go to the autoparts store and purchase a noid light. Unplug the six-wire connector near the thermostat housing. Insert the noid light into the ECM-side of the harness. (BTW, you *must* use a noid light. A standard test light is not capable of flashing given the millisecond pulsewidth on those circuits.)

The wires are as follows, and are labeled as such:

A -- Pink with a white stripe; on fuse "TBI INJ 1"'; is the 12V power supply to injectors 2, 4, 6.
B -- Color unknown (but as the other three are known, AND the connector is labeled, AND B is next to A, you should be able to figure this out); is the ground to ECM for injectors 2, 4, 6.
C -- Pink; on fuse "TBI INJ 2"; is the 12V power supply to injectors 1, 3, 5.
D -- Light blue; is the ground to ECM for injectors 1, 3, 5.

Stick the light into A and B (please make SURE you are using the ECM-side harness, NOT the injector-side harness). Have a buddy crank the ignition. Does the light flash? Repeat for the second pair. Does the light flash? All six injectors are fired simulaneously by the ECM, but they are wired separately -- the front bank, and the rear bank. Each has their own fused power feed, and are switched to ground inside the ECM. Your problem COULD be that one bank of three injectors is not firing. Unless it runs smoothly during the few second before it dies, the problem you describe could easily be "running on only three cylinders." I'm guessing it doesn't run smoothly, so this could be a problem.

If one of the banks does not fire, test the following things, in the following order: (a) The fuse feeding that circuit. Do not rely on a visual inspection. Use a continuity tester or DVM to verify that the fuses are operational. (b) Voltage check. When the key in run, you should measure 12V relative to ground on the hot wire in both banks (A and C). First, put the ground lead of your voltmeter directly onto the negative terminal of the battery, and the positive lead on terminal A. You should read 12V. Then put the positive lead on terminal C. Again, you should read 12V. (c) Pull the upper intake plenum and ensure that the harness is solidly connected to each injetorSingle injector test. If you get this far, let me know. I will find the testing procedure for you.

(4) Firing order. The firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. Don't tell me that you've got it right. I want you to verify that you have it right by tracing each wire to its respective plug.

If you get this far, and you have not found your problem, we need to do even more testing. Remember, you need four things to make a fire in an engine:

Air
Fuel
Spark
Timing

A failure of any one of these four will prevent the engine from running. Your job is to find which one of these is the culprit. I hope the tests outlined here get you on your way.

P.S. -- I had a problem like this once. The engine may or may not start, and then it may or may not run. I did a lot of things to that car trying to find the problem. Know what the problem was? A bad pigtail! This is the two wire (pink and white) harness that runs from the ignition module to the ignition coil. One day the car started. I was touching things under the hood (mostly out of desperation) and when I touched the pigtail, the engine died. I restarted the engine, and I could turn the engine on and off with the pigtail! I drove to the local Chevy dealer, picked up a replacement, and fixed the problem (after a continuity test confirmed that the pigtail was bad, of course!).

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GO BUCKS!!!

Are you sure your timing marks are correct? The marks on the 2.8 HB and the 3.4 HB are different so if you mix matched parts like I had to do then you must remark your timing mark on the HB. It is possible that you think you are at TDC but are not.

Sean

quote Originally posted by cunninghamsean: Are you sure your timing marks are correct? The marks on the 2.8 HB and the 3.4 HB are different so if you mix matched parts like I had to do then you must remark your timing mark on the HB. It is possible that you think you are at TDC but are not. Sean

And if you aren't sure, put a screwdriver into spark plug hole #1. Turn the crank until you feel the piston get to TDC after the compression stroke. You can get within a couple degrees with the screwdriver method.

Next, loosen the distributor base. Set the distributor to point to spark plug #1, and line up all 12 fingers. Don't try to get them a little ahead, or a little behind. Just line them up perfectly. Give the car a crank and see what happens.

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GO BUCKS!!!

somewher back there you said you were setting the dist. facing the little bolt on the upper plenum....that bolt is somewhere in the area of the throttle body is it not? now i may be wrong and someone stop me if i am, but isnt number one cylinder on the trunk side, all the way to the right(passenger side). from what you were writing before it sounded like you were setting it to face the completely diagnoal cylinder...and isnt the rotor supposed to face number one post on the cap? the the actual cylinder itself? sorry if any of this is wrong....someone tell me if i am...im rather new to this as well and dont happen to have my book around me now

Thank you all of you for your help, Specially you Dave!

To answer a few questions:
The small bolt I referred to is the smallest one on the plenum, 8mm IIRC, which makes the rotor point in the general direction of cylinder #1, the bottom right if look straight down on the car from above.

Yes Dave, I traced the spark plug wires and checked thier locations on the distributor cap 3 times, they are in the correct order.

Fuel pressure is good. I do not have a specific tester, but pressure was good enough to shoot gas several feet in the air above the schrader valve when checked.

The spark test I have attempted but failed at. I have Accel 8.8mm wires and they have Very long boots, so I was not able to get the wire close enough to the spark plug for the spark to arc and still be able to see it.

One of the wires on one of the pigtails going from the coil control module to the ignition coil has electrical tape on it to cover up a section of the wire that was exposed by the shielding cracking due to age and heat. The wire did not appear to be damaged at all when this cheap MacGyver repair was made.

With Todds advice, I have disregarded the timing marks and scale at the harmonic balancer, for the very reason stated, they aren't correct. I've reset the engine to TDC 3 times and attempted to set the distributor and start the engine. The timing should only be 9 degrees off, which is within the 15* margin required for the engine to run at all. I did exactly what Dave instructed in his last post to find TDC, to no avail.

At this point I am beginning to suspect that there is more wrong than the timing, but I don't know what. The 2.8 engine ran fine with all of these components right up until I dismantled it. I only replaced it because it ate a piston ring or two, which should not have anything to do with the problem I'm having now, as I didn't get anywhere near the piston rings in either engine.

Another thing worth mentioning: My chip is not stock, it is aftermarket. I can not change it back because the stock chip was damaged beyond repair during replacement. I have a custom chip and a Hypertech chip, both for the 2.8. My logic, quite simply, is that if the chips worked with the 2.8, and the stock 2.8 chip works with the 3.4, then the after market chips, which only contain different fuel maps, should work as well. This may be flawed logic, I don't know.

I will attempt some more trouble shooting tomarrow, but I am not optimistic about what I will accomplish. I am at a loss now. Hopefully, Todd will be able to help me find the problem, as he is much more experienced in working on engines than I.

Unfortunately I am having this exact problem with a Datsun I bought. Run for a few secs and dies. Turns out one cylinder has 60 lbs compression. Have you checked the compression?

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85 GT 4 speed 2.8L auto X'er

[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 04-19-2004).]

It was checked by the yard I bought it from and came up at 190 on 5 cylinders and 195 on the sixth.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: It was checked by the yard I bought it from and came up at 190 on 5 cylinders and 195 on the sixth.

Ah, HA! That's it! The extra 5 lbs of pressure are blowing out the pilot light!

If you want to aim the rotor correctly, put the distributor cap on and mark the base of the distributor,where the distributor cap comes in contact, just under the number 1 post of the distributor cap. I used a dot of White paint there, so I would have a visual referrence with the cap off. All you need to do now is to line up the tines, fingers, whatever you want to call them, in the distributor when the rotor is pointing to the white dot. Of course you know, the engine has to be at TDC before you do this. This way you can be sure that the rotor will be pointing to the number one post of the distributor cap.

The rotor should be pointing at the rubber boot for the vaccuum line that attaches to the plenum, nearest the distributor.

Hey It's been a few days since Iv'e posted. Did you change the chip when you did the engine? If so you might want to get another stock chip to see if that at least gets the engine to run for more than a moment at a time. Another thought is that the oil press sender also controls the fuel pump,and it sounds like your lossing fuel press or spark. Just throwing some ideas out there for you. Hope it helps Joe

quote Originally posted by fierobear: The rotor should be pointing at the rubber boot for the vaccuum line that attaches to the plenum, nearest the distributor.

Technically, it doesn't matter where #1 is, so long as the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. If you want it to be the same as stock, then follow this advice.

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GO BUCKS!!!

quote Originally posted by Dave Rodabaugh: Technically, it doesn't matter where #1 is, so long as the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. If you want it to be the same as stock, then follow this advice.

Technically this statement is correct but in a practical sense it won't work. You can't get your plug wires to reach if it's 180 out so make sure it is set properly.

Do one other thing for me Scott. Take out the spark plugs for a few hours and let any accumulated gas evaporate. After trying so many times you may have a flooded engine.

Hey, just curious but have ya tried some carb cleaner for starting it up and just spraying it to keep it going for 5 min till its warmed up?

I had this problem when I capped my cold start line. Perhaps yours is blocked. My 3.1 would do the same thing as you described. Runs for a little bit then dies. But would start up pretty much everytime.

Ivan.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Technically this statement is correct but in a practical sense it won't work. You can't get your plug wires to reach if it's 180 out so make sure it is set properly. Do one other thing for me Scott. Take out the spark plugs for a few hours and let any accumulated gas evaporate. After trying so many times you may have a flooded engine.

I thought the GM ECMs had a 'clear flooded engine' mode. You hit WOT and crank it, it turns over but the injectors do not fire. Dunno if that helps or not. I'm just impressed that you've done thins in a week more or less. It's taken me nearly a year to do my DOHC swap and the beast is STILL not running, close but no cigar yet.!! Great thread tho, keep it comming.

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Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com

Well, no improvement. Bear and I spent several hours tinkering with it and talking with Pokeyfiero on the phone and we're still no closer to an answer. Its got spark, its got fuel, its got air. We set the timing 2 more times and got the now-typical "start for 2 seconds then die and don't start again." We tried everything we could think of. No loose wires, tried 2 different coils, cut down the almost-absurdly-long boots on the Accel Spark Plug Wires. We still haven't found that one little thing thats holding up the entire process. As far as we can tell, theres no reason why it SHOULDN'T run. Its really frustrating.

Unfortunately, we were not able to check either the actual power of the spark or the actual fuel pressure. Bear's fuel pressure guage had the wrong fitting for the V6 fuel rail schrader valve (the Duke and V6 valves are apparently different).

Whats most aggrivating is how close it is. Its started and run several times, but only for a few seconds at a time. I'm starting to wonder if one bank of injectors is not firing for some reason. The engine is trying SO hard to start, it just can't quite do it. Whats more irritating is that I am pretty much helpless. I don't know what to do with it and I really wish I did. I don't like not being able to fix it and I REALLY DON'T LIKE not even knowing what is wrong with it.

On the positive side, Toddster is getting the Free GT aligned and ready to go tomarrow, so he can come over the hill Wednesday with all his equipment and we can really tackle this thing. Until then, I can do what Todd suggested and step back and take it easy for a day. Then we can attack this from a fresh standpoint. If nothing else I hope we can determine what the problem is, because once I know what the problem is I can work on how to fix it. Replace injectors? Fine. New distributor? Ok. I can replace parts fine, but trouble shooting is not my strong suit because I don't know cars, engines, and Fieros that well. I REALLY hope I don't have to take it to a shop and have them tear into it and charge me I hate to think how much to do the trouble shooting I can't.

Well, its kick back time for me. I'll just have to get over it being a 2700lb paper weight for another day. Don't think I'm getting discouraged, I'm not. This car will run again and I will drive it and I will love it. Its just frustrating right now.

Heh, Bear and I decided to take a break and go for a ride in HIS 3.4 Formula, which he just finally got back from being painted. Very fun, maybe a little too much fun. I'll let Bear tell that story if he wants to.

Till I have something else to post, I'm still more than happy to answer any questions anyone has.
-Scott

You've probably checked this a dozen times already, but you have right plug wires going to the right plugs?
Are there any wires that are tucked away but not plugged in?

Ok, what about vacuum lines that cracked in the process of de/reinstall? Dunno if that would cause such a problem...

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Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

We've checked and rechecked the plug wires more times than I can count.

No sign of any plugs or wires not connected.

There was a broken vacuume line that was fixed, as well as one that came off it connector at some point, but fixing them made no difference in starting the engine. Who knows, Wednesday we may end up pulling the upper plenum and having a good look at the injector wiring and vacuume tubes. Its really inconvenient that they're all hidden under the upper plenum so you can't even see them, much less work on them.

Just a thought but is the check engine light comming on? Have you checked the computer for codes?

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Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com

This may sound strange but have you checked your fuses??

quote Originally posted by spddy: This may sound strange but have you checked your fuses??

Yup.

No codes.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Actually, Bear did you check the fuses or just the fusable links? I might go fuse by fuse later just to make sure they're all good.

I checked most of the fuses on the fuse panel (remember, your fog light connector came off?) I did *not* check any fusable links.

Maybe it's time to build a fire and make a sacrificial offering of extra parts to the fiero gods, and then imbibe of the sacred Guiness to bring success, good fortune and happiness.

But seriously though... Considering they had some problems drilling the holes for the starter, is it possible that even though the engine starts running briefly, that the starter is somehow still engaged? What about spark plug gapping? Bad plug wires (borrow a set from another Fiero person, try it out), what about.... out of gas?

I've got all my fingers and toes crossed for you!

don't know if its been mentioned yet - i'd read the story buti'm at work...
you may have the timing 180* off.. you would have to pull the distributor off enough to disengage the gear then turn the rotor and re-insert..
i've done 4 3.4 swaps each in 2 days and sometimes i had the distributor lined up right but 180 off.. sometimes when i inserted it it was actually just a few teeth off which made it like 45* off from its original position..

this is what it sounds like to me - but good luck

quote Originally posted by Spyhunter: Maybe it's time to build a fire and make a sacrificial offering of extra parts to the fiero gods, and then imbibe of the sacred Guiness to bring success, good fortune and happiness.

You'd be surprised to know how many people have suggested that

These plug wires are only a few months old. They are Accel 8.8mm Spiral Core wires that I got because my old wires were failing. The spark plug gap was already set on the 2.8 and not messed with on the 3.4 cause they're the same. Even in the exact same locations. Starter seems to be disengaging. And its got plenty of gas. The tank is full and its got pressure, though we don't know exactly how much.

As for the timing, we've done it a million times it seems like. Every time we set it and it doesn't quite work, we try changing it 180* and it usually makes it worse, so I think we're getting it right the first time.

You said you checked all the fuses. That was going to be my first suggestion. There are two injector fuses -one for each bank. One of those fuses also supplies the power to the EGR solenoid. I've heard of solenoids shorting out, and blowing the fuse. Made one bank of injectors inoperative. The engine ran, but just barely.
The other thing I'll suggest is the ignition module, and wiring, or maybe the ECM.
If I've got my story straight... During cranking, the ignition module takes care of the spark timing. After the engine starts, and reaches a certain RPM (450 comes to mind), the ECM takes over the timing.
Try checking all of your connections at the distributor, coil and ECM connectors. If you or some of the other folks have a spare ignition module or ECM, it may help to verify or eliminate them as the cause.

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.
Read Nealz Nuze!

Hey if ya want to check that the injectors are getting power, grab a multimeter or light, on the connector between the engine harness and the injectors(right at the intake besides the map sensor) just ground one end and test both the green and blue wires, should pulse.

Btw have ya tried my one idea of just spraying the motor with a can or throttle cleaner or something like that to keep it running?

Oh ya, I've tried the Engine Start, with no luck.

It may sound stupid but I once put an engine in, installed a new starter, and it wouldn't start. Fought it for hrs, till I realized it was tuning in the wrong direction.

A friend of mine had this same prob. he had no ground on the motor to the chasis