You may have power to the injectors , but the ecm pulses ground to make them fire fuel

OK Scott, here is the deal. My GT is still at the tranny shop being dialed in so I won't get the car back until "sometime". But all is not lost. I just bought another Fiero, 1988 Red Coupe in GREAT condition. But the tranny is bad. I have a spare. I am going to get an early start tomorrow and swap it out. I should have the car running by 1 or 2 pm. If it runs ok then I will load up the trunk and head over. I'll keep you posted if I am going to be delayed.

Got it Todd. LOL thats just funny to me, you're going to swap in a tranny in the morning and drive it on over from Morgan Hill to help get mine started. Don't know many people who can swap a tranny in the morning and drive a long ways to help another guy with his engine trouble. You're awesome, dude.

In case ya forgot, my cell phone is 831-566-8136. I'll be out of class at 12:30 if you need to get ahold of me.

I brought up the problem in the tech session part of the Golden Gate Fieros meeting. Here are the suggestions:

- Cold start injector is sticking on, flooding the engine. disconnect and try to start
- check fuel pressure
- ohm out spark plug wires (sometimes they can break when you change/move them)
- crank the engine with the pedal to the floor
- dry off plugs
- check injector wiring

The frontrunner is the cold start flooding the engine.

Come on Fastback, get this thing running. At the rate you're going, I'll be done with my car before you have yours running.

Seriously though, I hope you and Toddster can get this thing going. Ditto on what Bear said about the spark plug wires. Plus, they're super easy to check.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fastback 86:

One of the wires on one of the pigtails going from the coil control module to the ignition coil has electrical tape on it to cover up a section of the wire that was exposed by the shielding cracking due to age and heat. The wire did not appear to be damaged at all when this cheap MacGyver repair was made.

Just a guess but this could very well be a big part of the problem

I wish John but we tried the pig tail from fierobear's 3.4 and it changed nothing.

Bad news, Boys and Girls. We went through the entire ingnition system pretty much. Tried 2 coils, 2 sets of plug wires, a new IAC (old one died), and set the timing AGAIN. Every part we swapped was known to have been working before.

The car started, ran a little, and died. The only good thing is that its doing it consistently now. Every time it will start, run, and die.

Now for the bad news.

With the electrical side pretty much ruled out, that leaves the mechanical side. $@*#$Y@#_P#$Y@#_%#@#$@ and a few other bad words. Its back firing through the Throttle Body, meaning that either exhaust gas or uncombusted mixture is eithe not entering one or more cylinders, or the intake valve on one or more cylinders is not closing, allowing it to get back out. Either way, thats major bad news.
Todd is putting his money on stuck lifters. He says if the motor was sitting too long, on or more may have frozen up, keeping a vavle or 2 from opening or closing. The even worse possibility is a bent or burned valve. Either way, it means tearing the entire top of the engine apart again. @#$%#$@##$@#$. This is killing me. I really need to be driving MY car again.

Fierobear just called with an idea. He thinks I should try pulling one plug wire at a time and start the engine, so I can narrow down which cylinder is not cooperating with the program, as the engine should run on 5, just very poorly. Its definately worth a shot, but on the other hand, if one lifter is bad, then a) theres reason to believe that the others may not be faring well either and b) if I'm going to all that work, I might as well do all of them. If I didn't need to give the hoist back, I'd be half tempted to drop the engine to do it, cause that way it would be easier and I could do a performance cam while I'm at it. Oh well, I don't have the money for that anyways.

Grrrr what a day. This is NOT what I needed right now. Guess I got some work ahead of me. Wish me luck.

before you tear the engine apart to check the valves. do a compression check on all the cylinders.that will tell you if you have a problem with valves or anything else in the cylinder. no sence tearing apart the engine if you dont have to. just my thoughts.

Do I understand correctly that you did NOT re-mark the harmonic balancer from the 2.8 as instructed on my 3.4 install page?

http://www.crazydave.org/fiero34project/#harmonicbalancer

Dave

The yard I bought it from did a compression test when they pulled it and came up with 190 in 5 cylinders and 195 on the 6th.

Well THAT was a marathon day. I spent the morning swaping a tranny and the afternoon trying to help Scott. The first project went OK but Scott's problem is a real pickle.

The timing was off when I arrived but we dialed that in and got the engine to start but it runs for 2 secodns ..rough idle...and dies. It sounds like a couple of missing cylinders, not one, two probably. The question is why? We ran the gambit of fuel and electrical ideas and the only thing left is mchanical. There is a remote possibility that the injectors are to blame but the injector wires are giving current so that is not the problem. But for the injectors to be guilty we shouldn't be getting backfiring...so we're back to mechanical.

The engine has just 40k miles so I think we can safely rule out worn springs. Pics show straight push rods. If the engine had been lying on it's side for any length of time then the lifters would have drained and that could mean they are stuck now. Lifters are cheap, $60 for a full set. But I'd still recommend pulling the heads anyway to check the valves. The problem with a caompression check alone is that it does not tell you if the valve is opening fully or not.

I'm betting on the lifters at this point.

Define "pre-oil." I very much doubt that I did what you are talking about. If you've got a set up for doing it, lets give it a shot before I tear the whole thing apart again.

I just talked to Andrew (pokeyfiero), and he said that if you have good compression, it shouldn't be the valves. He says that if a valve were open - a little or a lot - your compression would drop *drastically*. Not just 5 lbs, but by half or more. It probably wouldn't hurt to do another compression test. Scott, if you can get your hands on a compression testor, or have Todd or someone do it, that should rule out valves.

it sounds like you are now leaning more toward something messed up mechanically, but for what its worth when we put a new engine in my toyota tercel (i know completely different car and probably not set up the same in this way as the Fiero, dont have a v6 to see) but anyways we had the same problem it would run then die we messed with the timeing doing everything that has been mentioned (although on it the distributer is attached to the cam so you have to remove the timeing belt and move it a couple of places to adjust it more than it allows you to turn it) and that did kind of get it running, but it would still die or run VERY poorly and it had absolutly no power if it did run long enough to try and move it.

but in the end all it was is just a vaccume hose that ran from the intake to an electronic sensor that was misplaced and never put on. im sure you have checked all that and the wireing and i doubt if this will help you any...I do hope you get it running tho.

Thanks for the ideas Blacksheep, but we pulled the upper plenum today and checked all the wiring and vacuum tubes and all is attached and accounted of. We did get the IAC replaced while we were in there though.

Try a new set of plugs. After fighting with my datsun for 3 days I put new plugs in and it runs fine. My car had a no start condition. Plugs looked new but they were duds. For the price its worth a shot.

I hope you are keeping a charger on your battery. With all the cranking you have been doing it is bound to be weak by now. If it gets too low the engine will not spin fast enough to start and the ECM could get screwed up because of the low voltage too.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I just talked to Andrew (pokeyfiero), and he said that if you have good compression, it shouldn't be the valves. He says that if a valve were open - a little or a lot - your compression would drop *drastically*. Not just 5 lbs, but by half or more. It probably wouldn't hurt to do another compression test. Scott, if you can get your hands on a compression testor, or have Todd or someone do it, that should rule out valves.

The problem here is that a compression test only tells you if the valves and rings are seated. It does not tell you if the lifters are working. If the valve is closed, you will get compression. But who is to say the valve ever opens, or opens completely on the next stroke. A compression test will not reveal this.

Scott, you can borrow my pre-oiler but I can't make it to Santa Cruz anytime soon. You cna pick it up of have someone else pick it up on the way to your place. Just call ahead.

The idea of pre-oiling is that you shove this gizmo into the distributor hole and attached a regular drill to it. When you turn the drill it turns the oil pump shaft and blows oil through all the valleys and holes in the engine. It also shoves oil through the lifters and push rods. If your lifters are dry then pre-oiling may solve the problem. If they are frozen up from varnish build-up you'll need to replace them anyway. But at least this way you can save some effort if it is just dry lifters.

If his valves aren't opening, he could have a bigger problem. The lifters should move up to open the valves because they ride on the cam. This in turn should move the rockers. It doesn't take much to open the valves. If his lifters are not adjusted properly, as in too loose, then the valves would not open. If they are set correctly, then he has bent lifter rods, or totally collapsed/worn hydraulic lifters, or worst yet a worn cam, or a combination of these. If he has any suspicion of valve train problems, he should take off the intake and rotate the engine by hand to see if they are functioning and maybe re-adjust them. I would at least take the intakes off to check the valve train operation in this instance, the good news is that this can still be done with the engine in the car.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-22-2004).]

Good point, avengador. It probably wouldn't hurt for him to pull the valve covers and check.

Could he crank the engine with the starter? Would it be turning too fast? Would there be any potential for damage?

i dont think i would try using the starter while the valve covers are off, i dont think it would really hurt it but it will make a mess with the oil. and i think we all know to well what oil and heat from parts of the engine can do in the Fiero

just take the covers off and turn it with a wrench you should be able to see if they are working or not.

[This message has been edited by Blacksheep (edited 04-22-2004).]

Well, I'm going to work something out so I can try Toddsters oil trick first, that being the easiest and cheapest solution. Provided that doesn't work, it appears that I'll be pulling apart the top of the engine again. I'm fairly certain the problem is something to do with the lifters. You can look at the pictures from earlier in this thread, I took a few with the top of the engine off. The pushrods are not bent, the the rockers and springs and what not all looked good. That only leaves problems I couldn't see from there, meaning lifters, cam, valves, or something else like that.

well just taking the valve covers off and seeing if the valves are even working is easy enough and that could tell you a lot.

You won't build full oil pressure while cranking, and the engine won't be hot if it's not running. It's safe to turn it over with the valve covers off. It may get a bit messy, but place rags over the exhaust manifolds. It's not like your going to run the engine like that.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Well, I'm going to work something out so I can try Toddsters oil trick first, that being the easiest and cheapest solution. Provided that doesn't work, it appears that I'll be pulling apart the top of the engine again. I'm fairly certain the problem is something to do with the lifters. You can look at the pictures from earlier in this thread, I took a few with the top of the engine off. The pushrods are not bent, the the rockers and springs and what not all looked good. That only leaves problems I couldn't see from there, meaning lifters, cam, valves, or something else like that.

I agree, having seen the engine and the fact that is only has 39k miles on it I find it hard to believe the cam would be worn or the springs worn. Something bent? possibly. But the most likely suspect would be the lifters as far as mechanical things go. If they have no oil in them they will not work. period. So pre-oiling might solve the problem.

Scott, keep something else in mind. I have a tow dolly. If you get to the "I give up" stage, we can tow it to a service rep and let them figure it out. They have better diagnostic tools than we do.

Well, easiest and cheapest solutions first. Definately give the pre-oiling a shot, can't hurt. I'm gonna call or go by my favorite shop tomarrow and talk with them and see if they have any thoughts. Pokey seems to think that he can get it running if he had his tools there, so maybe I could tow it up to him and let him go at it first if the offer still stands. I don't plan on getting to the "I give up" phase, at least not the total give up. I'm not getting rid of this car anytime soon. But I may have to give in and take it to someone else to fix.

I'm trying to talk Pokey into going over to your place, maybe next Tuesday. We'll see how his schedule works out.

Thanks bear and of course pokey! All of you guys have been awesome with all the help you've given me. I know a few nice twistie roads I can take you for test drives on to show my appreciation (once it finally runs, of course)

I check PFF usually every day (Hi, my name is Scott and I'm addicted to Fieros and PFF) or you can just call me and let me know whats up. Have fun at the kit car show and take lots of pictures!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: The idea of pre-oiling is that you shove this gizmo into the distributor hole and attached a regular drill to it. When you turn the drill it turns the oil pump shaft and blows oil through all the valleys and holes in the engine. It also shoves oil through the lifters and push rods. If your lifters are dry then pre-oiling may solve the problem. If they are frozen up from varnish build-up you'll need to replace them anyway. But at least this way you can save some effort if it is just dry lifters.

I noticed in your $0 GT thread you mentioned this device as well... sounds like a pretty handy tool to have around! Any chance of getting some pics of this thing?

Fb86 - we're all watching very intently... wish I had a suggestion! Looking forward to seeing some pics of you driving this thing out of the garage.

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: I noticed in your $0 GT thread you mentioned this device as well... sounds like a pretty handy tool to have around! Any chance of getting some pics of this thing? Fb86 - we're all watching very intently... wish I had a suggestion! Looking forward to seeing some pics of you driving this thing out of the garage.

I'll post some pics of it this weekend. I will be driving the FREE GT in no time but I have a few other things to finish first. Give me two weeks and I'll be right back at it.

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: I noticed in your $0 GT thread you mentioned this device as well... sounds like a pretty handy tool to have around! Any chance of getting some pics of this thing? Fb86 - we're all watching very intently... wish I had a suggestion! Looking forward to seeing some pics of you driving this thing out of the garage.

You and me both! I can't wait to drive it again. Bigger engine, aluminum cradle bushings, I can't wait.

How was installing the alum cradle bushings? When i put my poly ones on, i had a hard time getting the bolt on the fronts back due to lack of flexing in the bushing - seems alum would be real tricky if the hole didnt wanna line up right away...

On another note related to your 3.4 thread, i went to the wrecker yard to look for engines - no a single 93-95 camaro or firebird with an engine in it

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Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

Installing the bushings was incredibly easy. We put em in, then put the engine back in the car. We had the car on the hoise and the engine and cradle on a dolly. We actually put the rear bolts in first as they lined up easy; just threaded them in by hand. Then we used a floor jack to lift the front of the cradle till the wholes lined up. A little work up and down with the jack and the bolts went right through. Very painless. Getting the old bushings out, now that was a project. There are probably still burned rubber fumes in my bloodstream somewhere.

Sorry to hear there are no engines for you. Being on the Island makes that a little tough. If you can score a decent small block V8, see how much it would be to ship a V8 Archie kit out there. I woulda done that but I don't have the money. Heck, I don't have the money for this swap. The Bank of Dad can verify that one.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Installing the bushings was incredibly easy. We put em in, then put the engine back in the car. We had the car on the hoise and the engine and cradle on a dolly. We actually put the rear bolts in first as they lined up easy; just threaded them in by hand. Then we used a floor jack to lift the front of the cradle till the wholes lined up. A little work up and down with the jack and the bolts went right through. Very painless. Getting the old bushings out, now that was a project. There are probably still burned rubber fumes in my bloodstream somewhere. Sorry to hear there are no engines for you. Being on the Island makes that a little tough. If you can score a decent small block V8, see how much it would be to ship a V8 Archie kit out there. I woulda done that but I don't have the money. Heck, I don't have the money for this swap. The Bank of Dad can verify that one.

I'm kinda of in the same boat, i wanna do this "cheap" "easy" swap 3.4 = but im afraid in reality it will end up costing as much as a v8 swap! im also going to be doing a auto --> manual conversion at the same time while i have the engine out... my topic will be "3.4 swap & man conversion in 4 days" (but i will have an extra engine to covert / prep beforehand, so id just have to remove old, install other engine and convert) still - im scared of going overtime and being stuck without a way to get to work!!! how are you doing it?

quote Originally posted by Spyhunter: still - im scared of going overtime and being stuck without a way to get to work!!! how are you doing it?

Borrowing my dads car

I don't know the exact #s, but the whole job is under $1500 right now, which is the cost of Archies Deluxe kit alone. If you have an engine built, tested, and ready to go and have all the tools to do the swap, you can do it in one day. Getting the cradle in and out is surprisingly easy, just time consuming. Changing engines, in this case, is bolt and unbolt. The transmission, obviously, is gonna take you more time, and I can't help you with that one cause I'm stickin with my 4spd Muncie.

Good ole dad huh?

So the archie kit is without the price of the engine - so the 3.4 swap comes out being quite a bit cheaper

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Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

Yup and Yup. You can check out Archie's site at www.v8archie.com He's got 3 levels of kits for a small block chevy V8 swap, ranging from just under $1000 to over $3000, just for the kit. A decent used engine is going to cost you $500-$1000 depending where you live, or you can get a crate engine for around $1200 thats missing a lot of parts. Any way you swing it, a 2.8 to 2.8, 2.8 to 3.1, 2.8 to 3.3, or 2.8 to 3.4 is going to be a lot cheaper because the transmission bolts right up, the mounts bolt right up, and everything but the block and heads practically (from the 2.8) bolts right up to the new engine. Keeping it in the 60 degree V6 family is the cheapest engine swap you can do, not to mention the easiest. Doesn't mean its cheap or easy, just much more so compared to other swaps. Down side is you don't get as big an increase in power as the other swaps.