Why don't you quantify the number of short PMs. One, two? Yeah that's what I thought. And how many months ago was the last time I sent you one? And do you want to talk about what it was in reference to? btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why. If someone wants to give me a negative, I'm not going to waste my time giving them tech advice. The censorship by closing that thread was unneeded.

The quote proves YOU and not the members banned Shaun unlike what you posted yesterday. Of course it's selective!

Why don't you post the emails from the "knowledgeable" people?

and what do you think I want?

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Oh please, Howard_Sacks. You've been on my case ever since your buddy Shaun has been booted. It's getting old. Your short little PM's are getting old.You know just as well as I that I'm right. And your selective quoting won't change a thing. You want me to start quoting all the emails I've received from people that have left because of him back then? Ah never mind. I already know where your head is in this. This is exactly the crap I'm talking about. Well, like I said, you and your buddy Shaun can be proud of yourselves. You are not far from getting what you want.

quote Originally posted by DelawareFiero: Ooops my bad. Hey at least I have proof someone read my post. Thanks Howie.

Actually, you were right. The car was made for 4 years. If you are born in 84, you celebrate your first birthday in 85, not your second. In other words: from 84-85 is one year, from 85-86 is two years, from 86-87 is three years and from 87-88 is 4 years. So you've got it right and someone else needs to take math lessons again.

No.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Actually, you were right. The car was made for 4 years. If you are born in 84, you celebrate your first birthday in 85, not your second. In other words: from 84-85 is one year, from 85-86 is two years, from 86-87 is three years and from 87-88 is 4 years. So you've got it right and someone else needs to take math lessons again.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why. If someone wants to give me a negative, I'm not going to waste my time giving them tech advice. The quote proves YOU and not the members banned Shaun unlike what you posted yesterday. Of course it's selective!

Howard - I think you're picking the wrong fight here... this thread does not revolve around Shaun or his issues. Shaun is a very intelligent person, and my personal dealings with him were without any trouble, but if you can't see that the problem was 100% in his attitude then you're definitely missing the point.

As for ratings (specifically yours) - I personally have struggled with how I rate you a number of times. You frequently have brilliant techncial information (Turbos, etc) that is benfecial to many people & you've always been great at sharing your many projects (CF stuff) - and that I appreciate, but on the other hand you can be abrasive, vindictive, and somewhat incapable of leaving the past behind you. <shrug> that's my honest opinion in hopes that it will benefit you & your understanding in some way.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Actually, you were right. The car was made for 4 years. If you are born in 84, you celebrate your first birthday in 85, not your second. In other words: from 84-85 is one year, from 85-86 is two years, from 86-87 is three years and from 87-88 is 4 years. So you've got it right and someone else needs to take math lessons again.

Well... technically the car was produced for 5 model years: 1) 1984, 2) 1985, 3) 1986, 4)1987, and 5)1988. If we get really technical, the 1st car was produced in late 1983, and the last in early(?) 1988. So that's also technically 5 years. But your obversation of the "birthday" would produce a "4 year" production run

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 06-17-2004).]

Donk, I would agree with some of what you said (especially the part about the bandwagon) but if I did I'd probably get a bunch of negatives, because I'm a newb and therefore don't know what I'm talking about, and also I'd be going against the majority.

I changed my mind, I will post again in this thread.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: The quote proves YOU and not the members banned Shaun unlike what you posted yesterday. Of course it's selective!

True, Cliff clicked the button to change Shaun to a banned user. But remember what his ratings were? No, I'm sure that conviently slipped your mind. He had over 150 ratings by the time he was banned, and more than 2/3 of them were negative.

The majority of the members, using the ratings bar, showed they believed that Shaun should've been banned. Shaun gets banned, and you're surprised by this and continue to complain about it years afterwards? Sheesh.

[EDIT]

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: You frequently have brilliant techncial information (Turbos, etc) that is benfecial to many people & you've always been great at sharing your many projects (CF stuff) - and that I appreciate, but on the other hand you can be abrasive, vindictive, and somewhat incapable of leaving the past behind you.

I think Rob's assesment of you is right on the mark, as well. I have rated you negatively because of your abrasivness and the frequency with which you have attacked people or taken various threads (such as this one) off track by digging up an old and oftentimes unrelated issue.
[/EDIT]

Nick

[This message has been edited by naskie18 (edited 06-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why.

I will be glad to step up.
I don’t remember the exact thread but everyone that disagreed with you in the thread you jumped on.
I can see being passionate about what you believe in but sometimes its best to just voice your opinion and move on.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: The quote proves YOU and not the members banned Shaun unlike what you posted yesterday.

Believe whatever you want Howard. Or whatever your buddy Shaun whispers in your ear. I will not fall into your trap. The people involved know *exactly* what happened. He was not banned until his ratingsbar started blinking. I admit, I could hardly wait for that to happen, but I did not ban him just because I wanted to.

And again, I've said it many times before, if you dislike me and the forum so much, then what the hell are you still doing here? Waiting for me to ban you so you can tell all your buddies "see? he banned me too!"? Will that make you part of the gang or something? If you get banned by me, is that the time they will teach you their secret handshake? If that's what you want, then please tell me so. Because I would gladly ban you without your ratingsbar even blinking, and supply proof to you and your buddies that I'm a "bad moderator who bans people on his own accord". Just say it. I'm here to please.

If that's not what you want, then stfu. Or better yet, stfu either way. I'm getting tired of your ongoing crap.

[Edit:]

Ah, never mind. People like you and Shaun are taking up waaaay too much of my time while I've got better things to do. So go ahead, make all the mess you want. I won't be cleaning up for a while.

I'd like to distill this discussion down to one simple sentence that I feel sums it all up:

Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

Some things to consider:
- I doubt that the various Fiero vendors would be able to reach their market and stay afloat without this Forum.

- I doubt that events would be anywhere near as large as they were without the reach of this Forum. The Dells, Carlisle, Run for the Hills, Ed's Swap Meet, Westfest, Rally through the Valley...all owe a debt to this forum. Does anyone think that the 20th would have had 400 cars on site without this forum? Will Wheatstock be as big as it will be without this forum? Other problems notwithstanding, FOCOA did not embrace the internet in general, or this forum in specific, and it's shows were declining. CFOG-I and it's supporting local clubs have utilized the internet to it's fullest, and their shows are not only growing, they are better than the previous national shows.

- I doubt the local clubs could find and inform new Fiero people of their existance without this forum. I know my club, Golden Gate Fieros, has benefitted with new members and a place to announce our events

In summary, if this forum dies, the Fiero community will suffer a potentially fatal blow. Cliff, if there is anything we can do to help, let us know. Maybe there are some unix guys that can volunteer some time to help with your workload, maybe you could parcel out a few tasks to some trusted individuals. I would, but I don't know much about unix or networking.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 06-17-2004).]

Fierobear; Excellent post! I made a similar statement in a PM to Cliff about the clubs. We have all benefited from the forum as have our events.

There's more though; i don't know about the rest of you but i've made some great friends on here that i enjoy seeing not only at shows but just as friends. Some are even very close friends that i hang around with regularly. I would have never know many of them without this forum. You can't even put a value on that because it's beyond value.

People have already stated how valuable this site is for keeping the cars running, getting ideas, etc but this site is really uniting Fiero owners too and that might even be more important then the technical aspect of it. People helping people whether it be to enjoy the car, keep the car running or to just enjoy each others company. That's pretty important on it's own if you ask me.

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Activities Director N.I.F.E.

www.fierofocus.com

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 06-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I'd like to distill this discussion down to one simple sentence that I feel sums it all up: Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

I think this needs to be emphasized...

Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

To Donk:

Some people on this forum do agree with your points. There has always been some people who would like to see more specialized forums. There are some people who hate the Fiero Store's high prices and will never buy from them. There are even those who disagree with how Cliff handles HIS forum. Let me stress that too, HIS forum.

I doubt people even have a problem with people who want to make a suggestion to improve the forum. A good post might be titled "hey, what if we made more specialized forums" and people would chime in whether they liked it or not. That is not what you did. You started categorizing members into groups. You called people who buy from Fiero vendors "a$$ kissers." You didn't want people to take that to heart, but listen to how it sounds. It implies if you bought a part from TFS, Rodney, WCF, or whoever, you are just an "a$$ kisser." Some people will be offended. I am offended. Why do people buy from them at higher prices? So in five years when we need a specific Fiero part and autozone, napa, home depot, or whoever else no longer carries it, we still can get it instead of sending our Fiero to the scrapper. I think thats a darned good reason. You then called people trolls and post whores, and insulted Cliff, his operation of the forum, etc.

I'd say Cliff can operate it however he pleases since he is paying the bills. He has opened it up as a public forum, but that does not mean it is public property. Its as if he let you drop by his house, and have a beer whenever you wanted for free. Would you then criticize him because you don't like his couch? Or he bought the wrong kind of beer? He is not asking anything from anyone here, other than they participate in a mature and considerate manner with everyone else.

Cliff is right, in that he does take suggestions to heart. IF people want something in large numbers, he works hard and long to make it happen. He doesn't have to do this, but he does anyway. Then people wonder why he gets upset when a few bad actors are ungrateful, send him spam, try to hack in, and otherwise harass him?

I think there is an easy choice for people who are so unhappy with the forum that they cannot stand it and must post about it. Leave. Log off. Go outside and do something. Work on your Fiero. Buy and MR2. Charmed is on TV. Go Golfing. Whatever you want. Or, suggest a change and ask people if they want to do it. But don't call them a$$ kissers, then expect them to agree with you. Thats a good way to get (-). Its disrespectful.

Sorry for the long rant, I think you may have had some points worth discussing, but you need to present them in a better manner. Not insulting large groups on the forum would have been a good start.

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul:There's more though; i don't know about the rest of you but i've made some great friends on here that i enjoy seeing not only at shows but just as friends. Some are even very close friends that i hang around with regularly. I would have never know many of them without this forum. You can't even put a value on that because it's beyond value.

Geez, I left out friendship. Thanks for pointing that out. I don't only go to Fiero shows and events to look at cars. The schmoozefest is every bit, if not more, important.

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: I think this needs to be emphasized... Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community. Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community. Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

Cliff:

To get back to my emphasis here. The Fiero community would certainly be devastated if you stopped operating the forum. We would lose the medium we all rely on to communicate, plan events, share information, get help, and socialize with each other. I am sure I am not alone when I say that I appreciate the time and effort you put in here.

Maybe I will get accused of a$$ kissing for this, but I mean it. I do not always agree sometimes with how things are handled here by Cliff, or others, but that does not mean I am not appreciative either. Could there be improvements? Show me something that cannot be improved? Is the forum going down hill? Nope, just the opposite, its getting better, thanks to continuing improvements. I have owned many cars, and belong to many forums. This is the best run of the bunch, and it is for the reasons Cliff stated above, He has simple rules, did not create an elite class of moderators, and lets the forum self moderate.

If you truly are thinking of shuting down operations, I hope you reconsider. If you decide it is time to give it up, I hope you offer the ability to operate it to someone else so the forum may survive, even if it is at a new address and under a new name. However, I hope you continue to operate it, as I doubt we could find someone with your ability to manage the forum on your own, and keep everything going so well.

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: I think this needs to be emphasized... Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community. Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community. Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

AGREED!!

" yeah" " nice" "me too"

Ok, I don't usually post my opinions, but here goes. Donning Flame suit.

If you don't like what you're reading here. GO ELSEWHERE. Period. Its a big planet with lots of websites. Start your own if you know everything.

If you don't like vendor prices for Fiero parts... Buy another car. GET OVER IT. It won't be any better anywhere else with any other car.

No one else out there has a forum with the amount of information available. Its been said that this forum doesn't operate the same as other forums. Guess what, it is not any other forum. This is Cliff Pennocks site. Cliff has always been pretty even handed with this site. I'm willing to bet that in any single case of some one getting banned, they had it coming. And as for other sites having more than 1 moderator in the house, you would get banned for being an @sshole there too.

Cliff has done a superb job running HIS site. Fierobear nailed it dead on! We, and I have made freinds here that I never would have met with out this forum, and I have made freinds whom I will never get to meet. At the end of the day, this site makes a difference in everyday lives for people that Cliff will most likely never meet either.

Some folks have nothing better to do than complain about life. How much more ungrateful can a bunch whiners be. Grow up, move on and shut up. This topic needs to go to the trash can Cliff.

88Ironduke

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Pilots with out maintainers are just pedestrians with a cool jacket and sunglasses.
I.Y.A.M.Y.A.S.

quote Pennock's Fiero Forum is THE single most important asset to the Fiero community.

Agreed!!

quote There's more though; i don't know about the rest of you but i've made some great friends on here that i enjoy seeing not only at shows but just as friends. Some are even very close friends that i hang around with regularly. I would have never know many of them without this forum. You can't even put a value on that because it's beyond value.

Agreed!!!

quote Some folks have nothing better to do than complain about life. How much more ungrateful can a bunch whiners be. Grow up, move on and shut up. This topic needs to go to the trash can Cliff. 88Ironduke

Also agreed!!!.........lets leave it at that!!!

quote Originally posted by donk316: PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS POST TO HEART AND START A FLAME WAR. I WOULD LIKE REAL INPUT HERE. 1. People who are afraid to do anything without asking the boards 'permission' or 'acceptance'

I would say that people who lack the self confidence to go their own way have personal issues. However, I do think it is a charectaristic of a large group that when there is blood in the water, the feeding frenzy starts. This thread is a good example, as well as any thread that happens to include a lime green Fiero. I'm not without sin on this, but I'm trying to be better. But it does make me see how some might be hesitant to break new ground. I don't see this as being an issue, though.

quote 2. Fiero Vendor a$$ kissers. These people are the ones who dont know how to goto a hardware store or nut and bolt shop to buy some nuts and bolt and would rather buy these so called 'kits' that these vendors have pieced together from their local nut and bolt and sell at a premium.

Actually on this one, I see more of the opposite. Almost every vendor who has made their presence shown on this board has been bashed at one time or another. Again, I've been part of the problem. I'm trying to be better. I do respect the fact that these people are out there to do the things that I lack the tools, skill, imagination, and wherewithal to accomplish myself. And I know that no-one is getting rich off of the Fiero game.

quote 3. Fiero Parts Vendors who feel the need to overcharge for the simpliest items. 250 bucks for motor mounts? 2500 for adaptor kits? 100 bucks for SS vacuum lines?

See above. Some of us do lack the tools, skill, imagination, and wherewithal to do it ourselves. If I want to drop the bucks to buy the fruit of someone else's labors, why should that ruin it for you? If you can make your own, I certainly applaud your skills. If the market will not support an inflated price, then the price will drop. Supply and demand, baby. Even I stayed awake long enough in Economics class to learn that one.

quote 4. I feel only a small portion of the actual members here have anything worth saying and the board, as it is set up now with only 2 sections and ONE moderator, their posts get lost sooo fast in the truly mundane posts such as "what does a rear sway bar do?" "whats wrong with my car" " my lights dont work" or the ever popular "im going to mass produce these awesome products for cheap, what do you think?" threads that allways die a horrible death on page 10. THIS FORUM NEEDS A "IM NEW AND I NEED HELP" SECTION.

I don't see adding additional "moderators will exacerbate that situation at all. I do agree that is an issue that can be helped, but it's better to light a candle then to curse the darkness. Theogre has put together an excellent technical resource on the more common Fiero ailments, if you can do the same thing for FAQs that you see are messing up the board, I'd certainly bookmark it.

quote 5. Trolls and post whores who have nothing better to do than flood the forum regarding the same thing over and over or adding the ever famous post " yeah" " nice" "me too"

Well, what can I tell you? There are going to be people that lack the imagination to add anything to a discussion. But Jesus loves all the little children, so we gotta put up with them too.

quote I wouldnt doubt if my IP is one of the "most logged on". I am here when ever I can. I help where ever I can. Folks here seem to get all worked up if you dont use flowery answers or god forbid, dont agree!

Yep. Do you think be any means that is unique to this forum? Sometimes you got to use a little diplomacy. I could come on and call you an ignorant jackass because my emotions are so tied into the discussion, but that isn't an accurate assesment of the issue, and it certainly doesn't add to anything to resolving the issues at hand.

quote Something else that bothers me, people who know what they are talking about, hanging around here less and less, or getting banned and forced to lurk....If it wasnt for www.60degreev6.com I would have never met Shaun and he has been a HUGE help with my motor build.

I'm pretty anti-ban myself. I'm not shy about my opinion of that. However, I'm not going to lay blame at the feet of Cliff about this. Cliff is a great guy for maintaining this resource. If I were him, I'd have yanked the plug countless times because I'm a moody *sshole. But what Cliff has done is given every single one of us the ability to moderate this forum. By how we interact with each other, we have the ability to shape how this forum works. We have the ability and choice to flame in public forums and bandwagon jump, and we have the choice to temper our words and work out issues in private messages. We have the choice to nurse petty grudges, and we have the choice to rise above the bs and make each day a new one.

Donk, I applaud the fact that you care enough about this forum to want to to tinker with it to make it better. I think that is a sign of taking ownership and becoming a critical part of the forum. I encourage you to keep that desire to see this place become better and better, and let it begin with you. + from me.

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quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why.

I did, because you're an ass_hole.

(he asked)

[This message has been edited by Firefox (edited 06-17-2004).]

Charming.

IMO, forums are consumer-driven. If the majority of the people like the forum, it will be popular. If they don't like it, they will go elsewhere.

There are other Fiero forums out there - they're just not as popular. There is some mass mentality that causes many to go to the most popular forum, sure, but I think that's an after-effect. Regardless of how you feel about this or any other forum, it only makes sense that you'll go to the most popular one to get your questions answered.

Some/most/all of the problems Donk points out are problems inherent to any online forum. Regardless of how any of us feel about the quality of this forum, it obviously ain't broke (based on the traffic) so why fix it? It's not like any forum is going to make us all happy at the same time.

I do agree with a few of your points, but I still think they are problems that will happen with any forum/community.

1) I'm not sure what you mean by people needing acceptance before they do anything. If you're referring to the newbie who posts "I'm going to put a 16-speed transmission from a semi tractor in my Fiero, what do you guys think?" then I can see your point. Sometimes it's frustrating to see stuff like that but occasionally a good idea might come out of it. On the other hand, I was on the low end of the automotice learning curve once too and admittedly still have a lot of room to grow. You just gotta accept everyone of differing skill levels. That's one thing I like about Pennock's - you can ask the same old question without even looking at the search button and not get lit on fire for it. I did the same thing as a newbie, BTW, but these days, I spend more time with that search button (love it or hate it) than in the regular forum.

2/3) Vendors that overcharge. Yeah, I won't spend $250 for a motor mount that I can build in my garage for $5. I did spend a few bucks to have a shift linkage bracket modified since I'm not equipped to weld aluminum. For some, it's nice to have a plug-and-play solution sometimes whether you can do the work yourself or not - and many of us simply don't have the tools to do everything. So if you're a vendor supporting a small community, you still need to eat, right? There's time required to build many of these parts and a certain level of R&D to design. It's only an option - people can still go out and build their own parts. Better yet, why not look at it as an opportunity? Whay don't you build motor mounts and sell 'em for $245?

4) Mundane posts. Like I said above, differing skillsets. But don't you feel good when you can help out a fellow Fiero owner with a problem? Easy questions=easy answers.

5) " yeah" " nice" "me too" posts... I think they're being supportive. And why not? It's not like the outside world is overly supportive of the Fiero and it's owners. Occasionally, I think some of the stuff that gets posted in those threads is nasty-ugly or even so unremarkable I can't figure out what they're so proud of so I just click the back button and get on with my day. "Look, I cleaned all the stones out of my tire treads!" Hit the back button or just keep scrolling.

I like it here and I hope nobody railroads Cliff into shutting it down. I don't know what went on before and I really don't care enough to pick sides. Regardless of how you feel about Cliff, we're all using his server. Does anybody ever read this far into a post?

Where to start...

1. There are some people who need to ask "permission" or get "acceptance" from the board. With over 9000 members, there are those who need the acceptance as a form of feeling they belong. There is really nothing wrong with it.

2. & 3. Fiero vendors are are needed. As in the example of the Fiero Store, Yes they do have high prices, but they also do carry some parts that would otherwise be unavailable. They also do sponsor events and give a 10% discount on some items to club members (Including this Forum). They are in it to supply a demand for Fiero related items and they do charge a premium so they can make their profit. As with anything you will have those who feel "loyal" to the vendors that have helped them out with their cars. The service TFS provides has been helpful. I know many times someone needs a part and they will ship it as fast as possible if it's required. Customer service is a large part of a business, Especially since the internet. What I mean is if a person/company tries to "rip-off" Fiero owners, generally with places like this forum, they need to do what they say. An example would be the Outlaw Performance folks who made low quality fiberglass parts and scammed lots of members. Needless to say they are no more. So those that have had very good or excellent service from a particular vendor, will promote them.

4. I am on a few other forums and some have the tech section broken down int numerous sections. Sometimes it is hard to locate information if you are not sure what section it falls under. It's not that we need another section, Maybe we just need a FAQ area that a new member could review. Instead of Cliff trying to write it out, Maybe one (or a group of us) could write something out that new members could read thru. We could then explain the search function and what Ogre's cave is. Then we can submit it to Cliff and when he sends out the password, he could include a link to it for the new person to review it.
We can also have the many members here review it and see if anything else would need to be added/changed once the draft is completed.
As for the "My car is broke", Many who are new to Fiero's or this forum, may not know what is wrong or how to post the problem so that others could determine what the area is by the title.

5. As for Trolls and post whore's, You will never be able to get rid of them. The "Troll count" here is actually low by comparison to other forums and those who Troll hard generally find out what the ratings bars mean rather quickly. Example the recent Ryan_D person. As for the ratings, I am sure some people do use it as a "popularity" thing especially when tempers/flames arise. I generally don't give out negatives just because someone disagrees with me. Generally it's those who get abusive/name calling/flame baiting that get them. Shaun did not get a negative from me, He did have a lot of technical knowledge but his attitude with some other members didn't bode well and then when he got more "colorful" in his tact. It caused more negative feelings and ratings until he was banned. Then he blamed Cliff for it. What happened (or is still happening) between Cliff and him is between them.

For the record, Howie does have a negative from me because of his immature attitude towards others. He always seems to blame the wrong person for problems or in disagreements he keeps harping on things he is clearly wrong about, but thinks he's right and tends to keep trying to goad those people in other threads that have nothing to do with it. Example, Bringing up an arguement about his bad purchase of an engine in a thread about suspensions. Since he will now know this, I guess I won't be getting tech advice from him anymore. I feel this is a good thing from my point of view.

I have given out a few other negatives like Dude16 and other such trolls, But I don't give out negatives for disagreeing or "spirited" discussions. As many here know, Dennis LaGrua and I have had a few "spirited" discussions over the carb vs. F/I topics. I have him rated as "Neutral" and if anyone ever inquires about information on adding a turbo, I usually refer them to him or his website.

My point of view is this, If you have a rant, then rant, But if you have a rant AND some idea's to improve the problems, Bounce them off of others and see if we can work it out. I'm sure Cliff won't mind if we came up with something that will improve the forum like the FAQ I suggested above.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 06-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why. If someone wants to give me a negative, I'm not going to waste my time giving them tech advice.

I rated you a negative some months ago, though I didn't mention why for the reason. (I usually copy and paste the URL for the reason.) I have rated 33 people. 6 of them I rated negative. You are one of them. From your smug post here to your constant harping on old topics and on Cliff, I feel that you deserve(d) a negative rating. As for your (admittedly valuable) tech advice, I doubt I would qualify for it anyway, regardless of how I rate you.

I am not sure why you care how people rate you, but since it is important to you, I thought I would mention my reasons. In any case, try to remember that this is an internet forum and not a real meeting place. I don't know you, I only know how you have presented yourself here in this forum. If I ever met you in person, maybe I would think you were the coolest guy on earth, or maybe not. You like Fieros enough to be here - so you can't be that bad. Either way, my rating is not set in stone, and can always change. (And when it comes down to it, my opinion of you and my rating of you are not that important to you anyways, or at least they shouldn't be.)

I don't have a ratings bar, nor do I care to ever have one - good or bad. I just enjoy being here.

To Cliff - shutting down the forum would be completely justified and understandable, and I wouldn't hold it against you. But I would probably not ever open a web browser again, since this is my online watering hole. Thanks for the years of selfless service. I look forward to more years to come.

- Flamberge

Last I checked, people still had sovereignty over their property. Cliff has just as much right to kick people off this forum as we do to kick people out of our houses. If someone came in my house and started insulting me and my family, he'd be out the door with a foot up his ass.

quote Originally posted by Flamberge: To Cliff - shutting down the forum would be completely justified and understandable, and I wouldn't hold it against you. But I would probably not ever open a web browser again, since this is my online watering hole. Thanks for the years of selfless service. I look forward to more years to come. - Flamberge

Been done before….

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...Perfection....

Howard,every time I see you post in a thread I get annoyed.You may be as smart as you think you are,but you have no idea how much you can irritate people.There was one time I brought you something from Rockcrawl,delivered to your house and you never even said thanks.I drove over 25 miles from my house to get that to you.This was the start of my thinking you don't think.If you want to know who has given you a negative rating,I have,not because of the delivery of that part to you,but because of your attitude towards others on this forum.You are just plain annoying! If I were Cliff I'd throw you off.If you came into my house and talked to me the way you do to Cliff you'd be out on your a$$ so fast it would make your head spin.

If Howard isn't as concerned about negative ratings as he proclaims, then why does he complain about them as much as he does? I think picking a fight with Cliff is the wrong thing to do, especially out on the forum for all to see. I too gave him a negative for that and as Cliff stated we might have people like him to thank if the forum is shut down. I really hope it doesn't come down to that. Thank you NOT Howard for pissing Cliff off. If you don't like the way things are done here, please do the honorable thing and leave.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 06-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why.

Hey Howie, guess what, I gave you a negative a long time ago.

Why?, Because you're a crybaby & a jerk.

Cliff: You'll recall that many people used to think that you & I were the same person. This thread is proof that it's not true, because I'd have pulled the plug on these jerks a long time ago.

It's been so long ago that I don't even remember this shaun guy. But these guys keep crying about him, & they call me a dinosaur.

Cliff, You know part of your current problems are self induced. You could have made it easier on yourself if you'd have dumped these punks as soon as they started giving you a hard time. No you couldn't do that because you had to be "Fair" to them. I have a question for you then, How "Fair" is it to the rest of the Forum if these punks are treated fairly long enough to cause the Forum to die?

BTW, Cliff, I have the same EMail problem as you do. I get about 7000 **** spams a day & I'll bet it would trace back to these same punks.

Archie (<~~ make him Cliff for a day & I'll take care of 'em all.)

quote Originally posted by Archie: Archie (<~~ make him Cliff for a day & I'll take care of 'em all.)

Now that's funny!

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A coward dies a thousand deaths..................A soldier dies but once.

Red 86 SE
Yellow 87 GT
Gold 86 SE (wrecked)
Red 84 2.5 Coupe

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 06-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: btw, I still want to know who rated me negative and why. If someone wants to give me a negative, I'm not going to waste my time giving them tech advice.

Well, since you asked, I gave you a negative a long time ago. I've since changed you to neutral a few times, and changed you back to negative about a month ago. You generally seem to have good advice, but you wrap it up in a rude, condescending, and irritating manner. And if someone disagrees with you, your attitude only gets worse.

I've never rated people for having an opinion that differs from mine. It's how opinions are presented that causes me to hand out a negative. And it's not just one or two threads; we all have bad days, or maybe an intent isn't clear from a few typewritten words. Sometimes it's hard to convey a joking manner when it's all non-verbal. But you're usually rude and/or confrontational in every thread you post in.

Not meant as a flame, but you did ask.

Ahhhh, PFF ..... Heck, I've some of the best fights of my life here!

Donk - you have some valid points, and you know I will tell it like it is with you, but like JStricker said - this is Cliff's house. We're just guests, and sometimes you just gotta look at things here and let it slide ..

You still get to keep the "+" from me that you previously earned.

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Loved that post Archie !!!!

Howie already knows who I feel about him from a long time back. He doesn't like me either, but I don't care!

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Hey Howie, guess what, I gave you a negative a long time ago. Why?, Because you're a crybaby & a jerk. Cliff: You'll recall that many people used to think that you & I were the same person. This thread is proof that it's not true, because I'd have pulled the plug on these jerks a long time ago. It's been so long ago that I don't even remember this shaun guy. But these guys keep crying about him, & they call me a dinosaur. Cliff, You know part of your current problems are self induced. You could have made it easier on yourself if you'd have dumped these punks as soon as they started giving you a hard time. No you couldn't do that because you had to be "Fair" to them. I have a question for you then, How "Fair" is it to the rest of the Forum if these punks are treated fairly long enough to cause the Forum to die? BTW, Cliff, I have the same EMail problem as you do. I get about 7000 **** spams a day & I'll bet it would trace back to these same punks. Archie (<~~ make him Cliff for a day & I'll take care of 'em all.)

Archie is right on Cliff! If someone is causing such an annoyance to you that you sit and hope for their red bar to go flashing so you can ban them, maybe you should just head right to the banning. I know you want it to be a heavily favored majority vote, but when you get to the point of considering letting them win and pulling the plug, maybe its time to pull the plug on the instead.

I know that won't help the spaming problem, but one would hope that they will go away eventually!

Archie, I like the idea of letting you be "Cliff for a day!" That might be just what the doctor ordered

must...resist ....urge....to...rate.....members....urghhh...

Oh yes.

I love archie's Zero bull-**** tolerance. Cliff has my sympathy and earned respect for sticking by his system and letting the majority rule almost ultimately. I do believe it goes without saying this is the singlemost important fiero resource in the world, and it goes without saying that the VAST majority of people DO NOT want this forum gone. I'd rather see a few frickin' jerks, knowledgable or not, get what they frickin' deserve for being frickin' jerks. I say an Iron fist is just what the doctor ordered until people figure out that respect is as good as currency. Hence why some people like archie, honestly deserve to sell their kit for their price, end of story.

With that said, I want to see this thread in the farkin' can.

This is the type of thread that really bugs the hell out of me. For the life of me, I can't understand why? Yep I'm an old guy - 50 years young, fairly new to this forum (only 50 posts) but if it wasn't for this forum, I'd have never been able to do what I've done with my Fiero. I'm not the worlds most talented mechanic, nor do I profess to be. What ever happend to a little respect, humility, and constructive critisim? There are people in this world that were born to lead and some that were born to follow - Cliff, you're one of the leaders and that's why this forum exists today. I thank you and my guess is that 99% of the forum members would strongly agree with me. You are an incredibly tolerable gentlemen - had it been anyone else in your position, they'd be fed up and be asking themselves - why do I do this to myself - I don't need the aggrivation??? Please don't let the inconsiderate 1% dishearten what you truly love - and that is what you created, PFF. It's your forum and you should do as you see fit. No you can't please everyone and don't bother trying! Threads like this one are truly unfortunate. Time to move this to the trash can so that we can all get back to our favorite addiction - our cars and PFF !!
Respectfully,
Gene

The tangent this thread has taken is slightly alarming.....goes from a "point of view" rant to a "dont let 1% of the people here make you shut the site down"

Come on people, enough of the melodramatics. It seems painfully obvious that NO ONE wants the site to be 'unplugged'. So can we stop saying that some of us DO want it turned off because this isnt the case.

I think my case for more sections is growing though.

I appreciate all the input here that managed to stay on topic. To those of you that posted without having your panties firmly planted up your A$$ you recieved a well deserved (+) from me. Even if the post was contrary to my opinions. To the other TRUE trolls, others will start negging you too.

OFFICIAL END OF THREAD.

A (+) to Cliff for his patience.

Rock on.

i just dont get it... we are all fiero owners... lets start acting like em.

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Avid Fiero Enthusiast
Daniel Caddell

"Remember, life will never come to you. You have to chase it and beat it with a stick.
Working on Firebird Interior
If you think i am doing a good job, Give me a positive

I sent you a PM donk. Don't worry, nothing bad!