It's just my experience with other boards, but many of them have an FAQ section. Perhaps everything involved in a complete tune-up, engine swap ideas, MPG, etc can be placed in there to free up some room in the TD and Q section.
Or... better yet, an engine swap board... It seems like I see many of the same questions asked by other users... like 3.4, 3800SC, SBC, etc. over and over. Perhaps we can move them in there, and give them subcategories like SBC, 3800, 3.4, 3.1, 2.8 and other.
and also, Cliff, I'm sorry to hear about your loss last year. A good friend of mine of 17 years woke up with trouble breathing last november, and he ended up not making it to the hospital. For one man running this forum and swatting at all the curve balls life throws, I must commend you for your efforts. Best of luck with the child on the way!
------------------ Surgeon General Warning: Fieros may be habit forming. 1985 Fiero GT project... 3800 Series I with 5spd 1987 Blue Coupe 2.8L 5sp. Isuzu (For Sale, PM for info) 1986 Firebird S/E 305cid 700R4 3.42/Posi (About to be parked for the 350 transplant)
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10:50 PM
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donk316 Member
Posts: 1952 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Mar 2003
I swear to GOD I had NOTHING to do with this. Honest!
heres the sections i wouldnt mind seeing... just some suggestions...
Interior, Suspension, "Newbies", Maybe a general engine section.....thats all i can think of right now.
------------------ Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta 1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA *ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE* http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information
[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 06-16-2004).]
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10:56 PM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
I second the ideas.....at the very least a board dedicated to engine swaps is a must. Engine swaps have become a big enough part of the fiero community to warrant their own board. It would also make searching for swap info that much easier.
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10:59 PM
joedirt Member
Posts: 221 From: Danielsville, PA USA Registered: Feb 2002
I swear to GOD I had NOTHING to do with this. Honest!
It's true... it was something I thought of as I read the rant thread. I see both sides of the issue:
Cliff's (I presume) is for the simplicity of searching, etc. One giant forum is easier to scan, search, post, etc., especially for those older, perhaps less computer savvy, (which again, I admit is a generalization) members who like the more simplistic operation of this forum compared to some.
My view (and presumably of other non-specific members) is there should be some more organization, and specific areas one may go to discuss and ask questions on some (of course in my opinion) redundant topics that frequent the TD and Q board.
Again, this is an independant view. I do not want to attack Cliff, only suggest to make things better. I can very easily accept no change if he so wishes. After all, it IS Cliff Pennock's forum, not my forum.
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11:06 PM
FieroHarry Member
Posts: 1809 From: Virginia Beach VA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by joedirt: My view (and presumably of other non-specific members) is there should be some more organization, and specific areas one may go to discuss and ask questions on some (of course in my opinion) redundant topics that frequent the TD and Q board.
Regardless of whether you have one TD&Q board or you break TD&Q down into 15 different sections, you will still have the same redundant questions. All you end up with is overlap between sections and questions causing confusion as to where threads should be started and where threads were when you go looking for them. If you keep it in one section, you have more people viewing the list of topics, and its all right there, there's no excuse for not being able to find an old thread. Granted, a lot of people post a thread without using the search engine first, but more specific areas isn't going to change that, either.
Regardless of whether you have one TD&Q board or you break TD&Q down into 15 different sections, you will still have the same redundant questions. All you end up with is overlap between sections and questions causing confusion as to where threads should be started and where threads were when you go looking for them. If you keep it in one section, you have more people viewing the list of topics, and its all right there, there's no excuse for not being able to find an old thread. Granted, a lot of people post a thread without using the search engine first, but more specific areas isn't going to change that, either.
geez but thats why you have MODERATORS! To move the misplaced questions into there right place! Why is this such a difficult concept!?
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11:27 PM
FieroHarry Member
Posts: 1809 From: Virginia Beach VA Registered: Apr 2001
So Donk are you saying someone should stay up 24-7 just to move mis-placed posts?
Youve got to be kidding me!!!!.....Is this the ONLY forum you know of??? Every other forum I am a member of (7 of them) has the modS doing this. Since there are 4 to 6 of them they do it when ever each one is online. He77 one forum on comic books (dont even go there) has 2900 members and 5 MODS....Absolutely none of the concerns that arise here!
WELCOME TO THE INTERNET ITS NEAT HERE!
------------------ Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta 1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA *ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE* http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information
[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 06-16-2004).]
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11:32 PM
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naskie18 Member
Posts: 6258 From: Commerce Twp, MI, USA Registered: Jun 2002
Youve got to be kidding me!!!!.....Is this the ONLY forum you know of??? Every other forum I am a member of (7 of them) has the modS doing this. Since there are 4 to 6 of them they do it when ever each one is online.
WELCOME TO THE INTERNET ITS NEAT HERE!
This isn't every other forum you're a member of, though. Cliff has said repeatedly that he doesn't want other mods. End of discussion.
Welcome to PFF. It's neat here.
Nick
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11:34 PM
FieroHarry Member
Posts: 1809 From: Virginia Beach VA Registered: Apr 2001
Youve got to be kidding me!!!!.....Is this the ONLY forum you know of??? Every other forum I am a member of (7 of them) has the modS doing this. Since there are 4 to 6 of them they do it when ever each one is online.
WELCOME TO THE INTERNET ITS NEAT HERE!
Dont assume to know me, I'm on several forums. Just dont really stay on them as much as here. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, SOME OF US HAVE A LIFE BEYOND THE INTERNET!
If everybody acted nice we wouldnt need to move/remove post's...............
[This message has been edited by FieroHarry (edited 06-16-2004).]
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11:35 PM
naskie18 Member
Posts: 6258 From: Commerce Twp, MI, USA Registered: Jun 2002
Maybe a flashing highlite around the search button would make more people see it and use it?
I don't think its a lack of noticing the buttons, its just easier for people to start a new thread and wait for others to respond then to try and find the answer themselves.
Nick
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11:36 PM
joedirt Member
Posts: 221 From: Danielsville, PA USA Registered: Feb 2002
This isn't every other forum you're a member of, though. Cliff has said repeatedly that he doesn't want other mods. End of discussion.
I wasn't aware of this... should've searched it anywho, sorry to start world war III, just thought I'd try to let cooler heads prevail. I failed miserably Guess I'll float back over to TD and Q.
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11:39 PM
donk316 Member
Posts: 1952 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Mar 2003
This is by far the biggest Im on now and the second biggest I have used.....www.nastyz28.com has 12500 members has 5 sections and 22 subsections....never a repeat post and everything is EASY to find. You need info on restoration? goto resto threads....
....Im starting to think there is a fear of change....such a huge fight over something that seems so obvious to me and others.
------------------ Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta 1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA *ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE* http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information
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11:39 PM
ThaFieroMunk Member
Posts: 945 From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada Registered: Dec 2002
It's just my experience with other boards, but many of them have an FAQ section. Perhaps everything involved in a complete tune-up, engine swap ideas, MPG, etc can be placed in there
....Im starting to think there is a fear of change....such a huge fight over something that seems so obvious to me and others.
There is not a need of change when the majority like it how it is. If you don't like it, you can leave. Simple as that. And nobody's stopping you from making you own forum, if you think you can do better.
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11:07 AM
Fformula88 Member
Posts: 7891 From: Buffalo, NY Registered: Mar 2000
This is by far the biggest Im on now and the second biggest I have used.....www.nastyz28.com has 12500 members has 5 sections and 22 subsections....never a repeat post and everything is EASY to find. You need info on restoration? goto resto threads....
....Im starting to think there is a fear of change....such a huge fight over something that seems so obvious to me and others.
I like the single forum nature of this board, and find it one of this forums strengths over the other forums I visit.
What I have found on other forums is the more you break things down into smaller sections, the more it becomes like a public library and the less like a community. People stay in their specific forum, and never venture out. Sure some people get around to others, but most begin to find it a nuisance, and stop doing it. The community breaks down that way, or you miss things, or just don't have as much fun. Its ok for being a good resource, its not so good at being a fun community forum. The relatively unstructured nature of this board adds its own appeal for most of the people here. If it didn't, it would be changed or someone would have started a competing Fiero forum.
The suggestion isn't new either. Every so many months, someone suggests creating more forums. Its just that few people really want more forums. Maybe someday the majority will and things will move to more forums. It just won't be as much fun.
I respect your opinion that it would be better. In some instances it would be. Its just that most people here think it would take away from their forum experience, and that is based on personal experiences on other forums. Its not about fear of change. Its about being happy and enjoying what we have, and deciding that change simply for the sake of change doesn't mean your improving things.
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01:49 PM
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twentyeight Member
Posts: 946 From: Grand Rapids, MI Registered: Aug 2003
I find it alot easier to use a forum with specific topics. I find posts get lost here frequently. A few times I made posts that got lost within a day or 2 and I had to use the search to find it again lol. But I have been here along time and I am used to it
Well since the topic is here again, y'all get my two cents again...
I am a member of 5 different automotive forums. This is the hardest one to deal with, BY FAR. It is impossible to keep up with this board. You say this board is dead??? You're Nuts. Look at this section. 5 pages of topics only go back two days. That means you have to come here EVERY DAY to keep up with the topics you're interested in.... No other board I go to has this problem.
So what does this cause?
1. REPEATED POSTS. Since you don't see a similar topic in the first few pages (which is only ONE DAY here) we all continuously repost topics and get the dreaded "do a search" or "covered two days ago" responses. Heck, it's only been about 5 days since THIS topic was discussed in great length.
2. LOST TOPICS. Don't remember the subject line of that really interesting topic? good luck finding it! You haven't been here for four days, so anything you were involved in is gone gone gone! Your only hope is that the ___MinnGreen Index Machine___ comes to your rescue!
3. INSANE SEARCH RESULTS. So you say you remember part of what you're looking for and you run over and do the search. Now wade through 20 pages of links to faintly relevant topics... most of which end up answering some poor schmo's question by just saying "do a search". I'm IN the search DANGIT!
These are problems that other boards have solved. They solve them by keeping very distinct and finite categories that adequately divide the information into reasonable amounts. I understand his dislike of forums with a bigzillion sections, but this is the other extreme!
Also, all the other boards have a very good reasons for having multiple moderators. Pennock's is THE WORST BOARD EVER for having posts in the wrong section. I look in tech and half of those posts belong in general, and I look in general and a third belong back in tech. Wheel topics are the worst about this... there is a tech aspect and an appearance aspect so they are in both sections all the time! Cliff is just one guy and does not have the required level of patience for keeping all of our post's where they belong, so he doesn't even try. Well, once in a blue moon when it goes over the line from "frustratingly annoying" over to "downright insane" he will come in and clean up after us. Moderators could help this. More finite sections could help this.
If it were my board (I know... it's not) I would at least try an "Appearance" section to swallow all the wheels/pics/paint/scoops topics that nobody can ever put in the right section.
Originally posted by fierogt88: I would at least try an "Appearance" section to swallow all the wheels/pics/paint/scoops topics that nobody can ever put in the right section.
Alright. I wanna lower my car. Appearance, or Tech? I wanna fiberglass a scoop. Appearance, or Tech?
Took me 5 seconds to think of something that could go either way. Anything that's misplaced on here is misplaced not because of overlapping of sections, but because members didn't think where it belongs.
A "look at my new wheels" thread belongs in GFC. A "what bolt pattern are Fieros" thread belongs in Tech. A "Look at my new scoop" thread belongs in GFC. A "how do I make a fiberglass scoop" thread belongs in Tech. Is it really that hard to figure out?
All the other automotive forums (5) I'm a member of are broken down much more than PFF, and it causes a lot more confusion as to where threads belong, more confusion when you go looking for them later.
Another thing I will never understand is the trouble people have with the search engine. What is it that makes it so hard to use? I have no problem finding the threads I'm looking for with it. Heck, the other "PFF improvement" thread prompted me to dig up a couple of the old shaun threads, I knew which one I was looking for, and I had to click on a whopping 3 results to figure out which it was. I just don't get why the search feature causes so many problems
[EDIT] Yes, topics get buried quickly here. Whereas in other forums you'd have to check 18 different sections to see the new topics for the day, here you check 2 topics but have 2 pages to go through.. In a broken down forum, you have more sections to check to view the same number of posts. There's a larger chance that you may miss something that could interest you, or miss something where you could've helped someone else out. [/EDIT]
Nick
[This message has been edited by naskie18 (edited 06-17-2004).]
Originally posted by naskie18: Another thing I will never understand is the trouble people have with the search engine. What is it that makes it so hard to use? I have no problem finding the threads I'm looking for with it. Heck, the other "PFF improvement" thread prompted me to dig up a couple of the old shaun threads, I knew which one I was looking for, and I had to click on a whopping 3 results to figure out which it was. I just don't get why the search feature causes so many problems
Because the VAST majority of people don't come here on an hourly basis like you and the rest of the +1000 post club. We would show up more if this site weren't so gosh-darn hard to find the info WE want to look at instead of every single thread that YOU want me to know about.
quote
[EDIT] Yes, topics get buried quickly here. Whereas in other forums you'd have to check 18 different sections to see the new topics for the day, here you check 2 topics but have 2 pages to go through.. In a broken down forum, you have more sections to check to view the same number of posts. There's a larger chance that you may miss something that could interest you, or miss something where you could've helped someone else out. [/EDIT]
2 pages????????????? did you read my post? did you double check? 48 hours away from Pennock's requires you to go at least 5 pages... and TECH is usually worse!
And NOBODY has suggested upping it to 18 sections. At most we have suggested adding 1 or 2 sections OR adding moderators OR adding a faq OR a Writeups OR trying anything at all to improve. Maybe my "Appearance" suggestion isn't the perfect solution, but there IS a problem that begs a solution.
If the problem isn't solved people like myself will fade away.... who aren't on this forum every single day like it's a crack addiction! Then Pennock's will just be a little slice of heaven for the 60 or so members who find the meaning of life in arguing with each other about cons vs. liberal or 88 fiero vs. pre-88 fiero every few hours....
Geez, he can change the colors and make it easier but he can't even consider trying whatever simple change he might want to improve the situation for fear of pissin' of the post-whores.
2 pages????????????? did you read my post? did you double check? 48 hours away from Pennock's requires you to go at least 5 pages... and TECH is usually worse!
And NOBODY has suggested upping it to 18 sections. At most we have suggested adding 1 or 2 sections OR adding moderators OR adding a faq OR a Writeups OR trying anything at all to improve. Maybe my "Appearance" suggestion isn't the perfect solution, but there IS a problem that begs a solution.
If the problem isn't solved people like myself will fade away.... who aren't on this forum every single day like it's a crack addiction! Then Pennock's will just be a little slice of heaven for the 60 or so members who find the meaning of life in arguing with each other about cons vs. liberal or 88 fiero vs. pre-88 fiero every few hours....
Geez, he can change the colors and make it easier but he can't even consider trying whatever simple change he might want to improve the situation for fear of pissin' of the post-whores.
Hey man, simmer down. Insults don't do any good. I find that most of the people that want things to change have to throw in rude remarks, sarcasm, etc. How about being a little more polite? Some of your points I agree with. I find myself on this forum at least once a day to keep up with the topics. When I'm gone for a few days, it is a bit tough to "catch up" on the past days threads. But if you have more sections, then that's just more sections to click on and browse through, just like browsing through the 4 or 5 pages. If there is a specific thread you have been following or have started, then yes, having more sections would probably help keep it where it's easy to find. I think if a lot of members wanted a few more sections, then Cliff would probably do it. But there's not enough people that are unhappy or don't want to voice an opinion about it, so it stays how it is for now.
sqoach 1,000+ postwhore
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10:33 PM
cunninghamsean Member
Posts: 876 From: Dahlgren, VA Registered: Jan 2002
You will never stop many of the posts that push all the other topics 5 pages deep unless you start a required training course before users sign on. How many request do we get to see different colored cars. Do people not know what gallery means? If you do not, that is where you find the pics. Many of the "problems" would be solved if people just read the buttons that are available to click on. An engine swap section could be useful, but if the break things down to far it becomes harder to use. I hate the forums that have 20 sections I spend more time looking for the correct section than I would on here just searching one section with the search functon.
Sean
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10:33 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Maybe more sections would help in some ways, but in some ways it also makes things harder. It's not going to cut down on misplaced topics, and it means you'd have to search through multiple sections to find what you're looking for, or decide where a topic best belongs. That's not too much different from having to check multiple pages. Perhaps as PFF continues to grow, more organization will be needed. Right now though, most people, myself included, don't have a problem with checking page 2,3, etc.
And yes, having more moderators may help. It's a big job for one person, especially one that has a new family. But the user-moderated format here is pretty effective at removing trolls. Is it perfect? No, but EVERY forum has it's share of trolls. Of the 4 or 5 forums that I visit regularly, PFF actually has the least. And on other forums, more mods usually means more personality conflicts and/or cliques. "This mod sucks", or "He/she is totally unfair" threads appear all the time in other forums. Then Cliff's e-mail would fill up with complaints about the mods. It would be somewhat helpful to have more people moving threads to the right location. But if you're in Tech, and there's a "Check out my new paint job" thread, you don't have to read it.
Cliff has always said "for the Fiero community, by the Fiero community", or words to that effect. And it seems most people here are happy with the way things are right now.
--Brad another 1000+ post whore
[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 06-17-2004).]
Originally posted by sqoach: Hey man, simmer down. Insults don't do any good. I find that most of the people that want things to change have to throw in rude remarks, sarcasm, etc. How about being a little more polite?
huh? The only thing I wrote the might possibly be construed as impolite or rude or insulting would be my use of "post-whore". Sorry about your misreading of my mood, as I'm in a great one. I used that term specifically because most "post-whores" wear that name like a badge of honor!
quote
Some of your points I agree with. I find myself on this forum at least once a day to keep up with the topics. When I'm gone for a few days, it is a bit tough to "catch up" on the past days threads.
Now, please, imagine life where you are NOT a post-whore (badge of honor, remember) and think how tough it is to find jack squat on this site.
quote
But if you have more sections, then that's just more sections to click on and browse through, just like browsing through the 4 or 5 pages. If there is a specific thread you have been following or have started, then yes, having more sections would probably help keep it where it's easy to find.
No, it's not, because if I'm looking for something specific I can look in the appropriate category. It just makes it tougher for the post-whores (again, badge of honor) to visit every single thread.
quote
I think if a lot of members wanted a few more sections, then Cliff would probably do it. But there's not enough people that are unhappy or don't want to voice an opinion about it, so it stays how it is for now.
My thoughts are that the majority of users DO want an improvement. The majority of users are "quiet" like I usually am. Been here long time, and don't speak up unless they feel strongly on an issue. Again, maybe something other than extra sections is the solution, but to deny that there is a problem is ridiculous. This forum is DRIVING casual readers away.
quote
sqoach 1,000+ postwhore
Given time, I will be there myself.
Oh, and Sean...
quote
Many of the "problems" would be solved if people just read the buttons that are available to click on.
Noobs definately have a problem here. No FAQ as the original poster of this thread pointed out! I've pointed at least a dozen fiero owners to this site and none of them stick around for many reasons, some of them listed above. Maybe instead of just saying "Ogre's Cave" a nice graphic button that says "Read the FAQ's in the Ogre's Cave" would attract more attention.
[This message has been edited by fierogt88 (edited 06-17-2004).]
Regarding the mod sucks thing. I have yet to see any mod that dose such things. If the mod is causing a problem I would blame the admin for making them a mod in the first place. I am also a member of www.mr2oc.com and teamswift.net. Sure there is quite a few sections but they are all very easy to use. Like I own a 1.0L sprint. I could care less about the 1.3 DOHC engine section so what dose it matter if its there I am not missing anything. I also own a 85 MR2. I never read the outher year mr2 sections cause they dont matter. No I am not a "post whore" I dont HAVE to read reply to every single thread posted. Infact in the past few months I kinda gave up keeping track of anything here. If its not on page 1 and its not intresting I move on to the outher section. I dont need to buy or sell anything so new posts there never get read by me eiher. Just because there has been a new post dosent mean you have to go and read it. Also there is usually a tell tail thing if there is a new post made in a topic. So if its blank/ dark you know nothing new has happened. I give up though I have no problem with PFF for the record. Its just getting to crowded for me to keep track of new things so I stopped trying to. As it is I spend 3-4 hrs a day on the net and skip pff altogether somedays to save anouther 2hr of reading. It dose take about 1-2 hrs to keep up with the daily events on this forum.
[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 06-17-2004).]
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11:10 PM
joedirt Member
Posts: 221 From: Danielsville, PA USA Registered: Feb 2002
Insults don't do any good. I find that most of the people that want things to change have to throw in rude remarks, sarcasm, etc. How about being a little more polite?
Well, I'll kinda put it exactally why people aren't more polite, and believe me, no flames are intended...
But I statred this thread, and I think I was very polite in stating my opinion. Read the original post again. My opinion has changed now that I see how things run here.
Since reading everyone's posts, all I see are variations of and repeats in the idea I presented with those who agree a change needs to be done, which is fine except everyone here seems like their idea is the next best thing and the thread gets hi-jacked faster than an American Airlines flight on Sept. 11, 2001.
My honest opinion? Perhaps more boards simply is NOT the answer. This thread is a perfect example of it. An honest idea is presented. One agrees, then immediately another person slams the idea and World War III breaks out. If we seperate into specific threads, cliff will have more than just 4 places to watch where threads turn ugly.
:gasp: then the trash can will have to be compartmentalized!!!
Seriously folks, let's just help each other out and keep things on the calmer side. edited for typing errors
[This message has been edited by joedirt (edited 06-17-2004).]
huh? The only thing I wrote the might possibly be construed as impolite or rude or insulting would be my use of "post-whore". Sorry about your misreading of my mood, as I'm in a great one. I used that term specifically because most "post-whores" wear that name like a badge of honor!
Ok, that came out as if I were pointing a finger specifically at you. I meant as in general. However, the comment about Cliff, in my opinion, sounded as if you were implying that he doesn't have a clue how to run this forum or how to take suggestions, which would be rude. Many things have changed because of suggestions of the users. I think if enough people want more sections, then he will probably do it. Sure, it's simple in theory, but I'm sure it takes Cliff a lot of time to figure out exactly how to set up something new and make it work like it should. Glad you're in a good mood.
joedirt, I wasn't pointing a finger at you either. I didn't say all. When I typed that, I was thinking of a few in particular. Sometimes my thought don't type out quite right.
[This message has been edited by sqoach (edited 06-17-2004).]
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11:19 PM
joedirt Member
Posts: 221 From: Danielsville, PA USA Registered: Feb 2002
Ok, I want to make it _very_ clear that I made no derogatory remarks about Cliff. I was simply pointing out that anytime one of the 7000 quiet guys speaks up about how hard this forum is to use, the top 60 posters show up and insist that everything is fine because it works great for the fiero-addicted guys who couldn't drag themselves away from their forum long enough to ever experience the dreaded 10 pages of new posts. So, Cliff appeases the loud minority instead of trying to do small improvements for the quiet majority.
Remember, the people who would benefit from these suggestions probably won't even check this site until this weekend, and then it'll be buried down on page 9 where it has no hope of attracting support from the majority of users....
anywho, sorry to start world war III, just thought I'd try to let cooler heads prevail. I failed miserably 
Guess I'll float back over to TD and Q.
