I realize the countless hours that Decah put into the hinge design and I respect their work completely. But these arent just for fieros, these are universal kits that decah makes, and correct me if I'm wrong but they also make them for a wide variety of hondas, etc...
There gets to a point where, yeah, it might have cost them thousands to perfect the design but if they sell very many at all at that price they should recover developement costs shortly. Then you would think once the developement costs have been recovered that they would lower the price "slightly" to increase orders...
Anyways we're getting off topic...
Good work on getting these available to fiero owners B&B., much appreciation
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09:20 PM
Tabs31 Member
Posts: 2049 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Nov 2001
I realize the countless hours that Decah put into the hinge design and I respect their work completely. But these arent just for fieros, these are universal kits that decah makes, and correct me if I'm wrong but they also make them for a wide variety of hondas, etc...
There gets to a point where, yeah, it might have cost them thousands to perfect the design but if they sell very many at all at that price they should recover developement costs shortly. Then you would think once the developement costs have been recovered that they would lower the price "slightly" to increase orders...
Anyways we're getting off topic...
Good work on getting these available to fiero owners B&B., much appreciation
Good work! You will be seing my check after the choptop.
$1600? Thats $200 less comparred to the defunct Car Excess. They charged me $1800 installed, but I was the guinea pig though.
Whats the difference? Notice how the bracket that holds the stut is not inside the fender well. Thats the way mine is installed. Also its a bolt-on kit, not welded so if someone gets tried of the VDC kit you can change it back. So it's "really not a univerasal kit." It's a modified universal kit from Decah. The same process as the the Defunct company Car Excess.
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04:35 PM
Dragon Member
Posts: 1352 From: Space Coast, Florida Registered: Jun 2001
XS Custom jacked the price up to $2,100 for the kit
Hmmmmm........summers here + high demand = over-charging I guess thats $2100 not installed, right? Might be $2700 installed? Since B&B Spyders is now authorized to do them I'll go with them. Street Dreams (Ross) kit is cheaper but, I still haven't seen it on someone's car except the proto-type. I would need a person own feed-back first. I know someone here has the kit but it's not installed?
Hey Frank, did you get your wife's car back? Hows the job on it? Got any pics?
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-28-2004).]
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12:32 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
We are now offering a modified Decah kit which is a bolt on for the Fiero. The kits will retail for $1600, installed $2100. Here are a few pics of the hinges installed:
Bill
Bill, do you have focused front view on the door where the extra bolt is needed or is it on the body of the car? And what is the verticle inches measured between the bottom of door and inside kick panel? Does it raises higher now vs. Car Exceses on mine?
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-28-2004).]
Street Dreams (Ross) kit is cheaper but, I still haven't seen it on someone's car except the proto-type. I would need a person own feed-back first. I know someone here has the kit but it's not installed?
Yeah I seen that thread. Hmmmmm........very interesting?
I hope it works for who ever got it. It seem to be less hardware vs. Decah and thus weighing less?
B&B Spyders Question: I'd just checked my car and I only seen two lower bolts and two at the top. I guess the three bolts your referring to are on the door?
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05:45 PM
Jun 3rd, 2004
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
I agree with MinnGreen fully on the subject of pricing, as I have noticed many posts about people wanting everything cheaper. Not picking on Neb here, but using his comment to generalize.
Making things cheaper and selling more: It depends on the elasticity of the product. Some products will generate way more revenue if you lower the price, and others won't Gas for example. No one will buy more gas(to an extent) just because its cheaper. You can only fill your tank so much. With this product, you are right, he would probably sell more with a lower price. However, they then need to build more. Which means you need more capacity. That means you need more working capital. That means you need to extend yourself futher. That means you have more orders coming in. That means twice as many customers calling you. That means more headaches. So, then you say to yourself, "self, I could make an extra $200 by selling 2 sets at a lower price rather than 1 set at the full price. But I'd have to invest more to make it. Do I do it?" People set their price, not always by cost plus margin, but by many other means. And they use the price to set their production requirements.
So, in conclusion. If you need to ask how much it costs, you probably can't afford it.
I agree with MinnGreen fully on the subject of pricing, as I have noticed many posts about people wanting everything cheaper. Not picking on Neb here, but using his comment to generalize.
Making things cheaper and selling more: It depends on the elasticity of the product. Some products will generate way more revenue if you lower the price, and others won't Gas for example. No one will buy more gas(to an extent) just because its cheaper. You can only fill your tank so much. With this product, you are right, he would probably sell more with a lower price. However, they then need to build more. Which means you need more capacity. That means you need more working capital. That means you need to extend yourself futher. That means you have more orders coming in. That means twice as many customers calling you. That means more headaches. So, then you say to yourself, "self, I could make an extra $200 by selling 2 sets at a lower price rather than 1 set at the full price. But I'd have to invest more to make it. Do I do it?" People set their price, not always by cost plus margin, but by many other means. And they use the price to set their production requirements.
So, in conclusion. If you need to ask how much it costs, you probably can't afford it.
Spoken like a true econ major Great job b&b. they look amazing. I still cant wait to get mine done.
------------------ Avid Fiero Enthusiast Daniel Caddell
"Remember, life will never come to you. You have to chase it and beat it with a stick. Working on Firebird Interior If you think i am doing a good job, Give me a positive
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04:46 PM
Master Tuner Akimoto Member
Posts: 2267 From: South Florida,USA Registered: Jul 2003
I agree with MinnGreen fully on the subject of pricing, as I have noticed many posts about people wanting everything cheaper. Not picking on Neb here, but using his comment to generalize.
Making things cheaper and selling more: It depends on the elasticity of the product. Some products will generate way more revenue if you lower the price, and others won't Gas for example. No one will buy more gas(to an extent) just because its cheaper. You can only fill your tank so much. With this product, you are right, he would probably sell more with a lower price. However, they then need to build more. Which means you need more capacity. That means you need more working capital. That means you need to extend yourself futher. That means you have more orders coming in. That means twice as many customers calling you. That means more headaches. So, then you say to yourself, "self, I could make an extra $200 by selling 2 sets at a lower price rather than 1 set at the full price. But I'd have to invest more to make it. Do I do it?" People set their price, not always by cost plus margin, but by many other means. And they use the price to set their production requirements.
So, in conclusion. If you need to ask how much it costs, you probably can't afford it.
When I was taking to Ian (he) made a $100,000 in one year from the modified Decah kit. After talking to a friend in the import crowd he said, "The VDC kits are just about played out and just about all custom cars in the show now have them." It seem to be a "over-kill" or VDC kit have flooded the market. The "wow" effect is gone. That atitude will no doubt in time will carry over into the Fiero seen too. (choptops, Notchback and Fastbacks)
The only "other" cars left is the Plasma, a rebody 355, The Targa Dirty Rat, and or a Aterero. That maybe because we haven't visually seen them? While in FL at the now defunct Car Excess the only cars that "wowed" me were the prowler, Caddillac XLR, and the 350Z
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06:07 PM
FieroGTRwideboby Member
Posts: 591 From: Socal (Pasadena) Registered: Jun 2004
Durability? Installed Dec 2003-Jan 2004. So far, so good. Construction: Decah's, steal using a bolt-on hardware using existing door and openings. Better Better? Honestly, I don't know. However, Decah has a 1 year warrenty on strut. whats the Different? a bolt-on vs. welded modication. It seems that Decah's doors are vertically challanged comparred to SD's?
You would need to see and experience both types to be sure?
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 06-03-2004).]
I understand completly that people have to turn a profit and this has nothing to do with B&B, but from the pictures I see of the kits, I seriously, seriously doubt that it costs Decah over 300$ to produce there "kits", especially since they are made of such a large scale. They are very, very cool, but the bottom line is that this metal and a strut is not worth what Decah charges. And no, a car is not only metal and plastic, as to where this Decah kit "IS" only a few pieces of metal and a pair struts.
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01:16 AM
Master Tuner Akimoto Member
Posts: 2267 From: South Florida,USA Registered: Jul 2003
From an engineering point of view and some one who has mechanical skills the price extraordinarily expensive to the point of robbery,now price is determined by how much you are willing to pay for an item but I could not see my self paying that amount for something that simple. Not saying that they are not supposed to make a profit but for $2100 I could buy a nice motor,a set of rim and tires etc they are way overpriced or some one is making a killing on the mark up since it is an exclusive item.
We could get into this huge discussion about price, but it's really pointless.. The internet, as a whole, has killed many people's abilities to make a decent profit without having hundredds of people scream, you're ripping me off.. It really comes down to this, capitalism.. The owner/maker sets the price.. If it's too high, no one buys.. In this case, at $1600 MANY people are buying.. Why price it lower??
I saw a comment that the car doesn't cost that much.. What does that have to do with the price of the VDC??
People are pointing to the fact that they don't "look" that expensive to make.. Make them yourself and sell them for $400 or $1000 or whatever.. If you think that there really is that large of a market for these things, then compete.. It should be easy money, right??
I plan to buy a set next year.. I don't mind paying the $1600 to have someone take the hardest part out of this mod..
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08:43 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
In this case, at $1600 MANY people are buying.. Why price it lower??
I can think of 1599.
I still say for the amount of engineering and fabrication you are looking at something that costs them $200 each to build. Mind you I am looking at this strictly from a marketing and business standpoint. If someone wants to pay $500 for a stick of gum them I say, "Yeah, OK whatever". But an 800% mark-up just rubs me the wrong way regardless of whether it is percieved by many as a "good" deal or not.
Ok, then let's compare this to another product.. Microsoft Office.. It has remained structurally unchanged for over 10 years now.. The cost of develpoment has long since been recovered.. Cost of distribution is roughly $20 per copy.. Yet they still charge $600 for a complete new version.. A slightly more significant markup..
The point I think that is trying to be made here is that you don't HAVE to buy it.. Make your own.. Sell them at half the price.. Make more money than B&B or Decah.. But please, stop complaining about the cost of things.. Pay it or not.. But complaining about it certainly doesn't do any good..
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11:20 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
But if you think that MS Office today is the same as it was 10 years ago, you don't know anything about the progression of computer technology and don't use 1% of the feature set of these programs.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
Just where do you think B&B is going to come up with 400 customers?
The reality of this whole thing is.. custom mods and custom cars is a VERY limited market. That being the case.. It is an expensive market to play in.. both as a customer and as a vendor.
Laws of economics and supply and demand don't apply to custom cars.
Let's take AusFiero's Stage II scoops for example. There is approx $40 worth of fiberglass and resin contained in the shape of a half moon (slightly exagerated I know)... yet he sells them for several hundred dollars. Made the mold once.. and produces each scoop as the order comes in.
R&D was done once (or even 5 or 6 times to get the mold right)... but now it's just a matter of laying the glass in the mold and so on and so forth... just how many cars do you see with his scoops on them? I'll be willing to bet less than 100.
How many aftermarket VDC cars are there? How many of those are Fiero's? Small market.. larger price.
Just where do you think B&B is going to come up with 400 customers?
The reality of this whole thing is.. custom mods and custom cars is a VERY limited market. That being the case.. It is an expensive market to play in.. both as a customer and as a vendor.
Laws of economics and supply and demand don't apply to custom cars.
Let's take AusFiero's Stage II scoops for example. There is approx $40 worth of fiberglass and resin contained in the shape of a half moon (slightly exagerated I know)... yet he sells them for several hundred dollars. Made the mold once.. and produces each scoop as the order comes in.
R&D was done once (or even 5 or 6 times to get the mold right)... but now it's just a matter of laying the glass in the mold and so on and so forth... just how many cars do you see with his scoops on them? I'll be willing to bet less than 100.
How many aftermarket VDC cars are there? How many of those are Fiero's? Small market.. larger price.
Of course the laws of S/D apply. If B&B offered this kit for $1 then I can guarantee you that all 9000 PFF'er would buy one or more. At $10,000 each they would be stuck with 100% of their inventory.
But that is not the issue. It's the consumer's perception of value. Some people consider $450,000 a reasonable price for a Bentley. Some people on this forum probably do. I don't. Why? Because I could hand build a Bentley replica from the ground-up so well that you could not tell it from a real Bentley. And I could do it for less than $100,000 in time and materials.
The issue here is "Price Point Optimization" {to drag-up an old reference from my Econ 101 days}. The goal is to set a price that is going to optimize your overall return. If the price is too high then you turn away potential business. If too low, you lose out on potential profit. Naturally this involves some market research which I have not done. But assuming my own position represents the center of the Bell Curve (just for the purpose of discussion), $1600 is a price point at which B&B is cutting themselves out of a significantly large potential market. I would pay upwards of $600 for this kit without complaint. $800 under minor duress. $1000 or more? Never. It's one hydrualic ram and a hinge! I can build it for a fraction of the price JUST from the pictures that have been posted here. Now most people don't have the skills and equipment to do that so their financial threashold of pain may be higher. But $1600 is more than I spent to buy my last 5 Fieros Combined.
1986 SE - $320 1988 Coupe - $200 1984 Indy - $400 1984 Indy - $300 1987 Coupe $20.50
And I still have $359.50 in change.
Now equate that to two hydraulic rams and two metal hinges.
The only way I can reconcile this price is that B&B don't WANT to sell too many of these things. Maybe they don't have the ability to mass produce and must limit the customer base. Maybe they feel from market research that the base of consumers is so small that they will never recoupe their investment without a steep price. And maybe they stuck their fingers in the wind and took a guess. beats me. I only know that I would like one of these set-ups. But I ain't going to be buying one at that price.
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03:34 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Conclusion: These companies are in it for the small piece of the monies or for a bigger piece of the pie. Fiero's are limited production group with no more than 6-8 person per year. That was what I predicted to Car Excess at the time which really was chump change comparred to the bulk made with the imports, period. So one year and half later, what do we see? 6-8 people.
So unless B & B spyders start selling VDC to the import crowd like hot cakes, would be the only way the price would drop, which highly is unlikely due to others who have already started a beachead with the import crowd in Florida. Just like choptops nobody really needs its but for a small few that do....priceless.
Byw. Theres two separate companies out west who wants to make the kit. So maybe my next car will be another guinea pig? Once the Big Three start rolling out VDC kits on new cars.....game over.
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04:36 PM
Aug 2nd, 2004
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Let's take AusFiero's Stage II scoops for example. There is approx $40 worth of fiberglass and resin contained in the shape of a half moon (slightly exagerated I know)... yet he sells them for several hundred dollars. Made the mold once.. and produces each scoop as the order comes in.
R&D was done once (or even 5 or 6 times to get the mold right)... but now it's just a matter of laying the glass in the mold and so on and so forth... just how many cars do you see with his scoops on them? I'll be willing to bet less than 100.
Well to put it a little more in perspective I pay to get them made and yes I make a profit. Several hundred dollars? I wish R&D took a lot of time and money but has finally been recovered. There is now about 160 sets of them floating around. Kinda proves the Fiero market isn't that large. It is the type of car you have to unfortunately have a fairly high markup to survive.
As said in this thread with the hinges , if someone can make them cheaper and make a profit, go for it. I know custom hinge setups over here are pretty expensive too, even for the mainstream Hondas etc.
Thumbs up to B&B for taking the risk on doing this. Yes it is a risk, because any new product has cost them a lot of time and money.
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[This message has been edited by AusFiero (edited 09-18-2004).]
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09:56 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20685 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
There is now about 160 sets of them floating around. Kinda proves the Fiero market isn't that large. It is the type of car you have to unfortunately have a fairly high markup to survive.
You are right. The Fiero is a very limited market. Anybody making aftermarket parts specific for them will cost bucks, because there will be very few buyers. B & B probably won't even sell more than 10 of these at best.
It is not like the large aftermarket manufactures that you see in Sports Compact Car Magazine that sells product to just about every car. Even look at the Fiero Store, which is ran by Leader Industries. They have to have seperate businesses and markets other than just selling Fiero parts to survive.
But anything that anybody makes for the Fiero, regardless of price is a very good thing. At least somebody is doing something, if you like it and want it, you can get it. So its all cool.
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11:13 AM
ceverhart Member
Posts: 247 From: haven ks usa Registered: Apr 2004
Me want 
Great job b&b. they look amazing. I still cant wait to get mine done.
