Well, I dropped the cradle to pull out my 2.8 today to make room for my TPI SBC. Before I break into the swap, a little background is probably in order.
This time last year, I didn't even own a Fiero. Oh, I wanted one but they are none too common in my neck of the woods. Anyway, I cruised up to Huntsville and bought one from Ed Parks. The first thing I did was to paint it and fix all the little things that tend to bug me.
Now that I have painted it and redone the interior, it really looks good but the suspension is shot and the trans input shaft seal started leaking like a sieve. I always told myself that when I had to drop the cradle for something, I would do an engine swap. So here we are.
I bought a low-miles '90 Corvette TPI off Ebay from a Corvette shop and proceeded to clean it up and replace every gasket, seal and o-ring on the thing.
Oil Filter bypass installed.
So, today I dropped the cradle and had very little trouble getting the engine out of the car, considering it was my first time. I found that the AC was a little difficult to get to but nothing major. I have used nothing but hand-tools so far. I should also note that I tried to follow Archie's instructions to the letter. I'm sure that made it easier.
Butt end in the air.
Here we have the old 2.8. It runs good. Shame to get rid of it but, hey, it's a "girl motor". :P
Now it's time to start cleaning the engine bay. Not too bad, really.
Stay tuned, there is much more to follow. Next is cradle prep and engine test mounting. Wish me luck and thanks for tuning in.
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03:18 PM
PFF
System Bot
Phil86SE Member
Posts: 1476 From: Kamloops, B.C., Canada Registered: Mar 2003
Hey looks like your off to a pretty damn good start...keep up the good work and keep us posted...you can never get enough views and input on SBC swaps...
-Phil
------------------ 86 SE V6 under constuction Please rate me if i am of any assistance, thank you...
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03:34 PM
InDeX420 Member
Posts: 567 From: New MILF-ord, CT Registered: Dec 2003
87GTSleeper... are you planning on using a painless harness, or a factory one?
That IS the question. Here is what I'm faced with:
VATS - Not sure what to do about it. I have a stock ECM. Supposedly, I can get a chip or a VATS module from Painless. Since the VATS module costs about 25% of what a chip does, I believe I will go that way. Not sure how this would fit in with the stock harness. I really need to educate myself a little more on VATS but it's looking like I will go with the Painless.
Other items that concern me at this point:
Vacuum hose routing. I blocked off the EGR ports and I'm not too sure how I'm going to route vacuum lines or which ones to use, actually. Does the Haynes Vette manual give any diagrams? Nooooo.
Coolant hose routing. My plan is to use a remote CSI water pump. I have never seen one up close so I have no idea how to hook one up. There are coolant ports all over this engine. On the side of the block, on the intake manifold, on the throttle-body, etc. Does the Haynes Vette manual give any diagrams? Nooooo.
On the bright side, the mechanics of the swap looks like it's going to be pretty straight-forward. There will be more pics as I progress. Thanks for all the comments.
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02:35 PM
mrfixit58 Member
Posts: 3330 From: Seffner, Fl, USA Registered: Jul 99
That IS the question. Here is what I'm faced with:
VATS - Not sure what to do about it. I have a stock ECM. Supposedly, I can get a chip or a VATS module from Painless. Since the VATS module costs about 25% of what a chip does, I believe I will go that way. Not sure how this would fit in with the stock harness. I really need to educate myself a little more on VATS but it's looking like I will go with the Painless.
Not only will you need a VATS module, you'll need the ignition key and the steering column tumbler. There are several locations on this forum that show how to make a simple circuit that will eliminate the VATS problem al together. I don't have a link but I'd bet that Minngreen has one. If not, you may try an archive search.
quote
[B] Vacuum hose routing. I blocked off the EGR ports and I'm not too sure how I'm going to route vacuum lines or which ones to use, actually. Does the Haynes Vette manual give any diagrams? Nooooo.
SInce you're eliminating the EGR, you'll need a chip burned or you'll keep getting a "check engine" light. While you're at it, you can have them elinate the VATS, too.
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[B] Coolant hose routing. My plan is to use a remote CSI water pump. I have never seen one up close so I have no idea how to hook one up. There are coolant ports all over this engine. On the side of the block, on the intake manifold, on the throttle-body, etc. Does the Haynes Vette manual give any diagrams? Nooooo.
Asside from the two poerts on the front of the block where the water pump attaches, the only other port you need to be concerned with is the upper heater hose port. If you want, you can just plug it. Then, just "T" off the heater hose before and after the pump and run the hoses to the heater. Basically, remove the water pump and install adapter fittings in it's place. Then run one each to the pupes that run the length of the car to the radiator. It's really up to yo if you want to install the remote pump in the engine compartment or the radiator compartment.
quote
[B] On the bright side, the mechanics of the swap looks like it's going to be pretty straight-forward. There will be more pics as I progress. Thanks for all the comments.
Looking forward to pics.
Roy
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04:19 PM
PFF
System Bot
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
If you have the number off the key (I think they were 1 - 15), you can call up Mid America Corvette (www.madvet.com) and order their VATS bypass in either switch or module. Here are the links to the parts:
Roy, Fieroguru, thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I do not have any key information for the VATS. Since I am dealing with no EGR, I guess I should try to get a chip burned that will eliminate both issues. If anyone has any info on where I might get this done, turn loose of it!
I know Painless has a VATS elimination ROM but I'm not sure about the EGR part of it. I may give street&performance a call and see what they offer. I bought my EGR block-off plates from them so there is a good chance they have electronics to match, I think.
Little by little, I will whittle away these issues and gett his thing going. Provided you guys keep giving me such valuable info, that is. Thanks for helping me with this.
For those interested, Street & Performance has everything imaginable for TPI. Custom chip burning, ECMs, harnesses, sensors, etc. In the words of a local ambulance chaser, "One call, that's all".
... Since I am dealing with no EGR, I guess I should try to get a chip burned that will eliminate both issues. If anyone has any info on where I might get this done, turn loose of it!
....
You may want to try searching www.thirdgen.org . Lots of information of TPI stuff and there are several people there that can burn chips. Also, there is one member on THIS forum that is very active on that forum so maybe a call for help is in order.
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08:10 AM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
I'm about the same place as you on my swap. Did you get your kit yet? Are you going to do anything to your trans before putting it all back together, other than fixing the leak? What clutch will you be running?
Just incase you didnt know. The Fbody Fuel rail is better for the fiero swap because you'll be able to use the stock fuel lines. They fit right into the fuel rail. Where as the Vette fuel lines coming off the fuel rail are on the trunk side of the throttle body.
Keep up the good work. Car looks great, now its going to run great.
For those interested, Street & Performance has everything imaginable for TPI. Custom chip burning, ECMs, harnesses, sensors, etc. In the words of a local ambulance chaser, "One call, that's all".
I'm about the same place as you on my swap. Did you get your kit yet? Are you going to do anything to your trans before putting it all back together, other than fixing the leak? What clutch will you be running?
Just incase you didnt know. The Fbody Fuel rail is better for the fiero swap because you'll be able to use the stock fuel lines. They fit right into the fuel rail. Where as the Vette fuel lines coming off the fuel rail are on the trunk side of the throttle body.
Keep up the good work. Car looks great, now its going to run great.
Thanks! Lets see some pics! I already have my kit from Archie. It got here fast and the components look top notch. I was able to get some F-body rails off Ebay, thank goodness. Looks like the fuel line locations are about perfect for those. I am getting ready to order my clutch and starter. The clutch will be a Centerforce dual-friction and the starter will be a Powermaster.
For the tranny, I have yet to give it a good inspection but at the very least the input shaft seal and axle bearings are getting some love. Other than it leaking, I have had no problems with it. I'm probably going to get the Ultimate Shift Kit from Rodney as well. I already have his shift lever and and shifter rebuild kit installed so I might as well.
Cal, What was the turnaround time on your stuff from Street & Performance? By the way, if I haven't said so previously, your car and engine are just gorgeous! I'd be a liar if I said your ride didn't inspire me a little. Your input is greatly appreciated.
I plan on posting some more pics in a couple days. It's my B-day tomorrow so I probably won't get much done. Thanks for the feedback, guys. More to come...
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07:25 PM
My7Fieros Member
Posts: 3357 From: Germantown, TN Registered: Jun 2000
here's mine. I'll have to snap some more pics this weekend when I'm out in the garage. I need to get my archie kit still. I'll pick that up when I go to his open house in april. Maybe sooner. I hope I can drive mine to the Dells run this year.
LOL! I used to live in Southaven (my parents still do) and I am familiar with Trotz. The guy I'm referring to is Richard Shwartz in Jackson, MS. Same ilk. I go to up that way pretty often to visit. Maybe one visit you will let me drool over your cars. I promise not to actually drool ON them.
Kiss, good looking engine! Mine is a bit milder than that....like stock.
Quick progress report: Clutch and starter ordered. ECM shipped to S&P for reprogramming.
[This message has been edited by 87GTSleeper (edited 03-24-2004).]
What's the charge for that? And are they just eliminating the VATs and EGR? I'll need to do the same, but wasn't sure if I should send to S&P or go locally (to me at least) with TPiS (who charges $100 for the basics: no Emissions, No VSS, No VATS - and the price goes up from there for performance stuff).
[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 03-24-2004).]
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02:29 PM
87gt5speed Member
Posts: 193 From: Columbus,OH,USA Registered: Dec 2002
Just bought a TPI 350 from a 92 IROC with 59,000 miles today, buyin my archie kit tomorrow! I'll probably start soon! (Of course I have a lift.... ) haha, livin the good life!
------------------ ---"Didn't those catch fire?"--- ---"Why didn't you get an MR2?"--- ---"The engine is WHERE?"--- ---Liking Fiero's is a lonely business---
What's the charge for that? And are they just eliminating the VATs and EGR?...
I was quoted $149 for no VATS and no emissions. 100 bucks sounds like a good deal. I didn't ask about VSS. It was my understanding from Archie's video that I could use the stock Fiero VSS. Did I misunderstand? BTW, I started messing with the stock Vette harness this afternoon. Screw that, I'm ordering a Painless. :P
Man, we have quite a few TPI swaps going on at Pennocks. I have a feeling there will be more than a few embarrased Mustang owners this summer.
Originally posted by 87GTSleeper: I was quoted $149 for no VATS and no emissions. 100 bucks sounds like a good deal.
That's still pretty good - one of these days I'll have to stop by TPiS and check their shop out!
quote
I didn't ask about VSS. It was my understanding from Archie's video that I could use the stock Fiero VSS. Did I misunderstand?
No, you're right - the TPI computer will accept the data from the Fiero's VSS. The reason TPiS removes that setting is simply because it's just part of their "Hot Rod" programming package - intended to be used in any form of TPI swap.
quote
BTW, I started messing with the stock Vette harness this afternoon. Screw that, I'm ordering a Painless. :P
LOL - sorry to hear that... I'm still going to hold on to the hope that my stock '89 F-Body harness will get me through!
quote
Man, we have quite a few TPI swaps going on at Pennocks. I have a feeling there will be more than a few embarrased Mustang owners this summer.
Yeah - but don't look for mine any time soon (probably next year)... I really need to finish the bodywork & paint 1st!
Well, I got a little work done this weekend. I expected my starter and clutch to show up by now but they haven't made it yet. That will be next post, I guess.
I did get the engine/transaxle and suspension off the cradle and clean them up. Here's some before and after pics.
I had already spent over an hour cleaning at this point.
Greasy cradle.
The transaxle after I got back from the carwash. I'm taking it to a transmission place near here for a thorough checking over.
Trust me, the cradle is WAY cleaner than it looks, just check the floor.
Now I'm just waiting on parts. I'm replacing the bushings, springs and struts as well. Are there any best practices for removing those cradle bushings? I want to replace them with poly. It's coming along. Stay tuned.
My clutch and starter showed up so I took the time to get some more stuff installed on my replacement engine.
Installing the adapter plate:
Got the clutch installed on the flywheel:
Here, I was working on aligning the starter pinion gear. A standard paperclip should fit between the peak of one gear and the trough of another:
And here it is all assembled with the mounting block trimmed:
I still haven't gotten my tranny back from the shop. They did call and tell me it would be 350-450 dollars to recondition. I can deal with that. I also ordered some new transmission mounts. As soon as they get here and my tranny is done I will start trial fitting the engine on the cradle.
I did manage to get my front cradle bushings out. I used the old "drill 'em to death" followed by the "cursing while swinging a hammer" techniques to get the bushings and sleeves out. It ruined the sleeves but I'm going to be replacing them with aluminum bushings anayway. More to come after the weekend.
[This message has been edited by 87GTSleeper (edited 04-02-2004).]
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02:51 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
What is the trans shop doing for only $350-$450? I was under the impression a getrag can't even be looked at for under $800.
Also, I may be mistaken, but I think you need the metal sleeve even when installing aluminum cradle bushings. The bushing just goes inside of the sleeve. Like I said though, I could be mistaken, I just figured they were the same as poly when installing.
When do you expect everything to be done?
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03:38 PM
HarryG Member
Posts: 587 From: Central Ohio, USA Registered: Sep 99
Kiss, they are replacing axle bearings, all seals and a shaft. I'm not sure which shaft, though. Hopefully, I will be done by mid-May. I am replacing the rear suspension as well or it would be sooner. I keep running into stuff that I refuse to put back on my car.
As far as I can tell, all threaded holes are machined and not inserts. I'll look a little closer at home but I'm pretty sure they are machined.
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04:41 PM
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1813 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
Things looking really good there. I hated the cleaning part the most. Seems you spend more time cleaning and painting than installing! But it makes for a nice job when complete. You won't be disapointed the first time you get to drive it. Keep up the good work. Always nice to see another v-8 Fiero. Thanks Gary
I just wanted to drop in and give an update. I finally got my transmission back fron the shop. $500 to swap all bearings and seals. At least it won't leak now.
Does the Getrag use any kind of pilot bushing when attached to a SBC? I ask because when I used my Fiero clutch alignment tool, the pilot end of it is blocked by what appears to be a smaller diameter pilot bushing. I did a quick measurement and it appears that the tranny input shaft might not even reach that far. Any suggestions?
Got my stuff in for the suspension.
As you can see, I've cleaned and painted the reusable parts (not many) so the rear-end should look pretty clean when I'm done. Cleaning and such has been taking up a lot of time but I'm under no deadline and I want it to look good. I should get a lot of work done this weekend so I'll have something to show for all the money I've been spending.
Stay tuned...
[This message has been edited by 87GTSleeper (edited 04-15-2004).]
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09:16 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Are you sure you want to use those alum cradel bushjings on that swap?? With the engine mounted solid to the cradel also, it will transfer quite a bit of vibration on to the next "component", which is your butt . I'm using all poly suspension and Eibachs on my SBC, but when I went to poly cradel bushings as well it became a little harsh even for me.... and I like a pretty stiff ride on a hot-rod. Just food for thought. Looks great BTW. Nice detail work!!
Russ
------------------ 86 SE350 x 4 speed with RSAD technology (Rapid Scenery Advancement Device) 86 SE2.8 x 4 speed (all-option restored) 88 coupe x 5 speed (future IMSA widebody 4.3L project) 85 SE2.8 x 4 speed very well optioned restoration project. 85 GT2.8 x auto needs everything but worth restoring
There is no Pilot bushing needed. If the engine already has a pilot bushing Don't worry about it because the input shaft will never come close to it.
Archie
Thanks, Archie. Good deal. Have fun at the open house. I'll be turning wrenches.
quote
Originally posted by Russ544:
With the engine mounted solid to the cradle also, it will transfer quite a bit of vibration on to the next "component", which is your butt . I'm using all poly suspension and Eibachs on my SBC, but when I went to poly cradel bushings as well it became a little harsh even for me.... and I like a pretty stiff ride on a hot-rod.
Hmm. I haven't thought of that. I like a stiff ride, too but there is a such thing as too much. Anybody else got any input?
Exhaust. What to do? I would like to have some Sanderson CC90s BUT I have no intention of attempting to weld my own exhaust. I would prefer not to have to find someway to drag it up to "Uncle Bubba's Crawfish and Muffler". I would just go with Archie's setup but I want headers instead of ram-horns. Any suggestions? Thanks.
I appreciate the comments.
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02:05 PM
JacobHaley Member
Posts: 269 From: Columbus, OH Registered: Feb 2003
Mine is solid mounted with stock rubber bushings in the k-member. There is slight vibration but only at higher rpm/speeds. I'd suggest giving that a try.
Well, I got a little work done this morning. With some help from the Mrs. I got the transmission mounted to the engine and the assembly set on the cradle for measurement.
Here is a side view.
There are some small mods you have to do to get the assembly to mont properly. These don't get talked about on the forum much and I though I would point them out to folks who might want to do a swap and haven't seen Archie's video.
First, you have to take a little notch out of the tranny case (at least on a Getrag) to clear a starter mount bolt-head. Here's mine:
I took off more than I had to but you get the idea.
You also have to drill a hole in the rear trans mount bracket. Actually, you just enlarge a smaller pin-hole that is adjacent to the normal stud hole in the bracket. This basically moves the engine/transmission assembly to the left of the car about 3/4 inch. I also enlongated the slotted holes for the front tranny mount 3/4 inch to compensate.
Here is a shot of the drilled rear mount bracket installed. I forgot to get a pic of the slotted holes before mounting the tranny. Sorry
The front mount doens't fit flush with the cradle rail. As you can see, it looks like it's sitting crooked but the engine is actually positioned correctly on the cradle.
Archie's video states that the measurement should be 16 3/8 inches from the center of the crankshaft to the center of the right front cradle bushing. That is the measurement I have right now.
I also got my struts and springs assembled. New rear hubs mounted.
Alrighty then. Looks like I'm about ready for exhaust. That'll be the next installment. Untill then.
Hopefully it won't take long.
1986 SE 350 V8
I think I'll ditch my 3.4 and get into real power. I heard a V8 at Daytona and it was just intimidating. 
