quote Originally posted by The_Ikon: What type of 0-60 times and 1/4 et times can this car get with a 5spd tranny or automatic???

I've yet to make it to 0 yet, much less 60, so far im up to about 0 to 60 in 840.54 hours
Really only 150? I wa kinda hoping to hit 170 (on a track of course) I would have thought that with the strong upper powerband, you could get it closer to redline in 5th.. Darn

I still dont see why everyone says this motor is sooooo hard to work on.... Aside from the timing belt system, it is all but identical to the other 60* V6's. Unless you're talking rebuilding the heads, that would be much more work. But all the sensors, emissions, and block are the same as any other engine. And changing the timing belt, and accessorys shouldnt take more than 2 hours if you mark the cams, only about 35mins if its out of the car

rob get on the ball man, i remeber you saying that when i was still researching this swap

As for the transmission, i'd have to agree with dave an say a "sissy" transmission isnt the choice for this motor.

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REMEMBER: If you cant win the race you loose the argument!!

3.4 DOHC Motor Swap-14.7 in the 1/4 mile with no hook-up, crumby exhaust and automatic chip.
Better exhaust, chip, cam retarding, and driver to come... I'm feeling lucky!
www.geocities.com/j_depies

quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: You didnt like that engne or anything now did you Dave?

Oh no not at all, what gave you that impression? lol

Jeff: It's "girly trans" not "sissy" j/k

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Oh no not at all, what gave you that impression? lol Jeff: It's "girly trans" not "sissy" j/k

Yeah! it's "girly trans", get it right. I would know, I get lots of it from Dave

I have a 3.4 DOHC swap done by Darth Fiero. I was a little hesitant when he first proposed the engine, but some after some rather unusual cirumstances, I ended up with it. After hearing all the reports from others who didn't own one, I was completely surprised at how well the engine performs. I love to rev the engine and it has turned the Fiero into a real 'drivers' car ... just a lot of fun playing with the power and the sound. Darth has really opend up the engine and exhaust to make it a strong performer. Right now the car is undergoing its body transformation so that it will match the craftmanship of the motor. I can't wait to drive it again!

Build thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/047231.html

quote Originally posted by YellowArtero: I have a 3.4 DOHC swap done by Darth Fiero. I was a little hesitant when he first proposed the engine, but some after some rather unusual cirumstances, I ended up with it. After hearing all the reports from others who didn't own one, I was completely surprised at how well the engine performs. I love to rev the engine and it has turned the Fiero into a real 'drivers' car ... just a lot of fun playing with the power and the sound. Darth has really opend up the engine and exhaust to make it a strong performer. Right now the car is undergoing its body transformation so that it will match the craftmanship of the motor. I can't wait to drive it again! Build thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/047231.html

For some reason Fred and I knew you wouldn't be able to leave that car alone...LOL

Man, i cant wait to get my chip and new exhaust done. I think that i might see what i can do about the exhaust on friday. Also the cover for the front side spark plugs

So dave am i making you want that swap anymore? did i mention 25 additional HP from cam timing? how about the 68 from shorter intake runners and cam timing?! whoops...

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: Man, i cant wait to get my chip and new exhaust done. I think that i might see what i can do about the exhaust on friday. Also the cover for the front side spark plugs So dave am i making you want that swap anymore? did i mention 25 additional HP from cam timing? how about the 68 from shorter intake runners and cam timing?! whoops...

So, when should i bring the formula over so you can get started? lol

Here are a couple of pictures of my engine. I know some mention that you don't have room to change the plugs, but as you can see here, the lower mounting of the engine gives much more room between the cover and the body. Overall, the engine fits in the bay just nicely.

so how well does the dipstick work with where darth put it. stock isn't too bad but the stick gets stuck and you have to twist it in so it leaves a lot to be desired. i also manage to change my plugs but i admit it would be a lot nicer having that extra room.

I had a 3.4 DOHC with a 125C slushy. All I have to say is that it toasted 3 new transmissions almost instantaneously each. All of them at least had 1st gear, and that was HOLY ---- fast. 0-30 was a neck snapping blur. But thats all I ever got out of it.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: IThe Twin Cam engines are AWSOME. The low end grunt of the 3800SC is great but the sound of the 7000 RPM power plant is something I love about my car. The 3800SC sounds good too, more like a muscle car.

That was my basis of the new build, I want both, the grunt, the sound and the rev's
Next time it will be a Getrag Manual 3.4 DOHC Supercharged. And yes, I am going to show that picture yet again

quote Originally posted by Kameo Kid: i can't imagion putting an auto tranny to this motor, my getrag is sooooo sweet with this set up and for now i'm only running it up to 4K on the tach, just babying it along but it is so responsive, so smooth, and when the turbo spools up it's. . .. .... .it's like music to your ears..!!!

I agree that if you want the most out of a DOHC the manual is the way to go but I still think an automatic would make it a very nice cruiser especially if you wind up in stop and go traffic. The auto Z34's I drove were fine. I haven't ruled this out. Not all of us want to thrash the car. I borrow my buddy's 85GT DOHC for that!

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by TK: The auto Z34's I drove were fine.

Until they blew their transmissions up... Didn't they go through transmissions like it was going out of style?

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

I don't think so or at least no more than the SC's but then there is the bulletproof Getrag to compare with.

Your engine looks excellent yellowartero, thanks for posting the pics of it. I assume that the intake was done by Fred? He mentioned doing one during the Iowa show when he saw Jeff's car. He really did a nice job on it and the install darth did looks good too. Definitely more room to work with it looks like. I'll have to drop darth a line and see what he says. Definitely looks good in the pics, thanks for posting them.

Manual trans issue: I still don't see why you would need an auto for a good cruiser TK. We were definitely in stop and go traffic with Jeffs car with the Getrag and it was still a joy to drive. It had plenty of torque to take off with and the Spec clutch was a stage 2 so it was not much more aggressive then stock in feel. Also, his exhaust kind of made stop & go the most fun anyway. It's definitely attention grabbing and stuck in between many cars it was funny to watch the reactions as the exhaust roared and echoed off their cars.

Fieroobsessed; thanks for posting that pic too. Hmmm, supercharged 3.4 TDC
I like that. Thanks for sharing the pic.

Anyone else that wants to share pics please feel free to do so and any comments, even bad, about this swap are welcome. I'm trying to gather as much info as possible. Thanks.

carefull what you ask for you just might get some bad comments. when it comes to putting in 200 horsepower i think the 3.4 dohc is the easiest way to do it. the bad part is that just like you i was really impressed with the power, i was bragging to everyone how fast it was but i quickly got used to it and am looking for more. i remember when i bought it i was driving home on the interstate and 2 girls went flying by in a grand am or something similar, sunfire maybe. they were probably doing over 90. i was folowing my grandfather who drove me there to buy it and he waves me by to go catch them. so i quickly catch up to them at over 90 i could step into it and let off just to toy with them and i was amazed how much power was left to do this at over 90mph. the whole time the car was missing and running like crap so i couldn't wait to get it running correctly, which i did to a point. you will have to live with a lot of things with this engine. just go to 60degreev6.com and read all the repeat posts about stalling. which i have more or less under control and it always starts right up. jeff didn't want to listen when i told him to put a piece of rubber over the rear head. water will get in the plugs if you don't and no matter how ugly it is just take my advise and do it. get a strong clutch. i burnt mine which i was told was new and after removing it i believe that it was. you didn't put in 200 horsepower to drive like it only has 130. my gas mileage on a good tank is 28 and 22 beating the hell out of it. very similar to my old 4cylinder, i still wish it was a little better but i am not complaining. my tach doesn't read correctly. it's off 200 rpm at idle and gets worse as i rev it. reads 2500 at 2000 and redline is way off. i don't care much about that either. the oil pressure gage reads about 30 with the engine off and key on which makes me wonder how acurate that is also. it pegs the gage on cold starts. so as you already know the engine is a lot of fun but will never be perfect no matter how much people brag about it. it's like all the interior conversions that people only show pictures of the good angles. wiring is pretty simple. even jeffs everything was different from mine so i just found all the sensors that used to go to the RS center and give them power, hook up grounds and gauges. last i spoke to jeff the only codes he had were auto trans stuff. the fuel pump can be tricky as shown in another thread. i admire the guy for being honest about it. it lets everyone else know not to jumper things for a reason. 87-88 4cyl A/C hoses work very good for me and others. that is when i moved the coils though. i had left them stock until i got the A/C hoses it got crowded down there. i mounted them on the rear trunk wall driver side and didn't need to lengthen any wires. over all i really think it's a great engine and i think you are wasting valuable time by not starting yours yet when you could be out giving jeff a run for his money. so get started every thread gives someone else ideas for improvement. sorry for the long read.

Thanks for that Joshua, nice to hear some common problems with the engine. I have my chip reprogramed by Darth Fiero and I'm having my wiring harness done by Erik (thanks guys) and I'm hoping it should be bug free.

Man I like the thought of having power to play with at 90mph. 90 with the 2.8 it just extra noise with not much gain when you floor it.

Has anyone had one of these on the 1/4 with a properly tuned motor? What 1/4 is expected? I was figuring low 14s would be good for this motor. What kind of 0-60? Thought I heard high 5s or 6 seconds.

i don't want it to sound like my engine isn't running correctly. to my knowledge it is. it starts and idles good. it doesn't miss. if i'm coasting in neutral it idles around 1000rpm and slows to 800 when i stop. doesn't throw codes. except the spark knock from installing the wrong clutch, which hasn't returned thank goodness. as far as the stalling goes. one example when jeff was with me we were driving and the car was warmed up and got stopped waiting to turn for a while and as soon as i got ready to take off it stalled. i think they just don't like to idle. the one thing i don't know about is my BLM. it reads zero at idle and reved up it goes to 1 or 2. i don't know what it's all about but i think it's supposed to be 128.

This is my understanding of BLM:

Divide BLM by 128 to get the multiplier that the current fuel value is adjusted by.

BLM example:

BLM = 140
140/128 = 1.09, a 9% error in the lean side

What this indicates is that the BLM is multiplying the calculated value of fuel by 1.09 to achieve 14.7:1 AFR.

So if the BLM is above 128 then ECM thinks your engine is running lean (therefore add fuel). If BLM is below 128 the ECM thinks it is running rich so remove fuel.

So in your case the ECM thinks the engine is running way rich. BLM is the long term multiplier, INT is the short term multiplier. BLM moves periodically based on what INT is doing.

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Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com
Visit the NC Fieros website at TarheelFieros.org

thanks ltlfrari for the information. it is obvious by my exhaust that it does run rich. i let it go because i have no cat or egr. sometimes my BLM isn't even enabled, wonder why that is. i've pulled the plugs and they are always clean so i doubt it's an injector and the 02 sensor is new and the cross counts look good. i'll probably let it go unless there is a definite fix.

THanks for the informative post Joshua. I am very interested in both good and bad sides of this swap as i am not that familiar with the engine as i am with the pushrod 60* engine and V8's. I have driven much faster Fiero swaps (motortvs modified LT1 for example) but i really enjoyed the way the TDC bahaved in the Fiero. I always want more power but i do still get a thirll out of my lil modded 2.8 so i'm sure the TDC would always be able to bring a smile to my face. Besides, if i did want more power it's certainly available as Kameo kids turbo TDC and fieroobsessed picture of a SC TDC shows.
Interesting about the stalling issue. Jeffs car never stalled the whole time we went to Iowa. It ran extremely well in fact. It even got excellent mileage. Definitely superior mileage to my 2.8 which just adds to my interest in this swap. More power and better mileage, how could you ask for more?
The gauges problems do concern me. I like to have all my gauges working as well as possible especially an important one like the oil pressure.
Thanks again Joshua for sharing your comments. I really am interested in both good and bad comments like yours especially from someone like yourself who actually drives one. I'd rather hear about any bad now then find out after the swap is done and it's to late.

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: ...... Manual trans issue: I still don't see why you would need an auto for a good cruiser TK. We were definitely in stop and go traffic with Jeffs car with the Getrag and it was still a joy to drive. It had plenty of torque to take off with and the Spec clutch was a stage 2 so it was not much more aggressive then stock in feel. Also, his exhaust kind of made stop & go the most fun anyway. It's definitely attention grabbing and stuck in between many cars it was funny to watch the reactions as the exhaust roared and echoed off their cars. ......

No issue with a manual trans at all. I have them (in fact my 86SE is a manual) but I'm talking about real stop-and-go traffic that lasts long enough that an automatic would be a god-send. I think we call them traffic jambs. 20 minutes straight of in-out-in-out-in-out and I would put up with the power loss of the auto. Normal driving, I love the manual trans. Oh well, pragmatism isn't important to this conversation. I will still use a DOHC in a Fiero first and everything else second.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-29-2004).]

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: rob get on the ball man, i remeber you saying that when i was still researching this swap .

You have a nice home page... Nice lil tidbits, etc...

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85' Fiero 5spd notchback
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bigtime1911/album?.tok=phlWNyABDV9Lapf.&.dir=/2a9c&.src=ph

65' Karmann Ghia
http://photos.yahoo.com/the_ikon1911

Jaguar XJ8 L
Audi A6 Quattro
Jeep CJ7
Lexus SC 400 *Best car ever RIP

josh, you have a pm...

I would like to back-up everything that josh has said about the car. Im used to the power just like he is now, but its not like you cant notice the difference. Once you ride in the passenger seat its easier to tell how much quicker it is.

Stalling hasnt been a problem with my car other than i think 2 random situations where it stalled out but i blame auto tranny codes for that. It is trouble free for 800 miles right now. It'll stall kinda easy if you let the clutch out too fast but then again i blame the stage 2. Oh did i mention 68 additional wheel horsepower by doing some basic mods?

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REMEMBER: If you cant win the race you loose the argument!!

3.4 DOHC Motor Swap-14.7 in the 1/4 mile with no hook-up, crumby exhaust and automatic chip.
Better exhaust, chip, cam retarding, and driver to come... I'm feeling lucky!
www.geocities.com/j_depies

what do you mean 68 horespower by some little mods ???? im finally putting mine in on the weekend

what can be done besides the cam timing??????

i figure a 3.4 DOHC makes aboput 235-240 in a fiero then cam timing adds about 30 and your telling me 68 thats more than 300 buddy!!!!

how do i do that mod?

http://fiero.cc/fiero-tdc/members/mws/intake/ i think this is probably what he is talking about. maybe someone can start a different thread and do some brainstorming. if anyone has the resources to check the picture in the jegs catalog has a picture of an electric water pump for lt1's that looks very similar to the 3.4 dohc. then run a switch to kill the altenator. that should be good for a few horsepower for the spirited runs anyway.

That link is very impressive. I heard GM had this engine up to 280hp naturally aspirated before they detuned it becaust they didn't have a fwd transmission that could handle it reliably.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: one example when jeff was with me we were driving and the car was warmed up and got stopped waiting to turn for a while and as soon as i got ready to take off it stalled. i think they just don't like to idle. the one thing i don't know about is my BLM. it reads zero at idle and reved up it goes to 1 or 2. i don't know what it's all about but i think it's supposed to be 128.

What are you using to look at BLM's? Are you sure you're looking at BLM's? I didn't think a BLM could go to zero. Are you looking at IAC steps instead? Do you possibly have a vacuum leak?

Are you using a chip for an automatic transmission or a manual? Using an auto chip with a manual trans will cause idle stability issues. The Northstar is the same way. If the engine is idling and the A/C compressor kicks on, it will stall the engine.

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Punch the gas and feel the back step sideways; rip off a powershift and hear the tires punished by torque; downshift, lift off and feel the engine braking that only comes from big cubes, listen to the pop and gurgle. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none that are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

i'm using a scan tool, don't know the brand. i am sure i'm looking at BLM's though. idle is good. if it idles for more than a minute though it will start to dip. but it's nothing i haven't read about on 60degreev6 so i guess i just accept it when i should probably look into it more but i really don't understand the whole thing. i have a manual chip now and it showed the same thing when i had the auto chip in it. i have wondered about a vacuum leak but i don't know what the vacuum normally is for this engine so again i just leave it. does anybody know why BLM's would show disabled? and then enable when i rev it up. i suppose it is sounding like my car runs like crap so hopefully jeff will give his opinion so everybody doesn't think it's a piece of crap. last time he rode in it though we almost got smoked out by the clutch.

quote Originally posted by Will: Until they blew their transmissions up... Didn't they go through transmissions like it was going out of style?

Nope, all 3.4 DOHC's came with the 4T60-E. That same trans was used in all of the 93-up GM FWD cars and in some even earlier. The only common problems I have heard about relating to the 4T60-E was:

-stripped out 4th clutch hub splines, resulting in loss of 4th gear
-worn out reaction shell (stove pipe), fix was installing hardened shell
-stretched drive chain (usually only a problem in the heavy, big cars)

With that being said, the 4T60-E's that came factory installed in the 3.4 DOHC cars were somewhat special. Most had the 3.06 ratio differential but also had the 33/37 drive chain sprocket ratio which made the overall effective ratio 3.43:1. Change out the 3.06 diff with a 3.33 unit and leave the 33/37 sprockets in and you will end up with a 3.73:1 overall ratio.

There are multiple BLMs, organized in a table of RPM vs air flow (MAP I guess or MAF reading for the later auto chips). The ECM only reports the BLM value for the cell it is currently using so you also need to watch the BLM cell number on the scanner as well as the BLM value since one cell could be different from the next so you'd see it apparently jump as the RPM/load changed.

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Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com
Visit the NC Fieros website at TarheelFieros.org

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Nope, all 3.4 DOHC's came with the 4T60-E. That same trans was used in all of the 93-up GM FWD cars and in some even earlier. The only common problems I have heard about relating to the 4T60-E was:

I'd heard that the autos really had problems because the engine turned so fast compared to GM's other offerings. pedal touches floor often = higher maintenance costs

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Punch the gas and feel the back step sideways; rip off a powershift and hear the tires punished by torque; downshift, lift off and feel the engine braking that only comes from big cubes, listen to the pop and gurgle. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none that are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

FieroMadman-

You mention the mods to get 68 extra HP... Does your car have to pass state emission inspection? Wouldn't these mods affect how clean the engine runs?

Rick Stewart
85 GT w/'91TDC forever in progress

I just found a 3.4DOHC engine offered. The 3800SC's and DOHC's are very hard to find around here, almost none. It is an 1998(?!) engine with 30K miles. I want all wiring etc with it, have to ask what trans it has and from which car it came and some more questions...he's asking 2500euro's (about $3000 *cough*) but these are the prices I guess.....One year ago a 3800SC(with wiring etc) and 70Kmiles was priced for $3500.

I wanted to go the 3800SC route, mainly of the large aftermarket but the DOHC is my second choice.....I just need to be talked into it....

Just an update, now that I actualy drove it, I have a more precise "impression":

HOLY CRAP!

I almost wrecked it within 5 seconds, I'll be a little more careful with the gas next time
actualy I think it was more like .6 seconds, I went from the left lane to the right shoulder between flooring it from a slow roll, to being able to wreslte myself back up the the steering wheel when it redlined before I could even react. I was a little more in control for the ~2 second jump from shift to 2nd gear redline. Of course my car right now is just a bare frame with an engine, transmission, and a seat.

yeah their alot of fun to drive. I was neck in neck with a Corvette that kinda caught me off gaurd today too. The 68 horsepower mod might dirty up emissions a little because of the cam timing but it still should pass. Most of the horsepower is from the intake anyhow.

Excellent! maybe I can take a ride sometime, after you get some body panels on it! *grins*

[This message has been edited by Voided (edited 09-22-2004).]