I said my piece in the announcement thread.

Whomever is responsible is a very pathetic person who did not get much attention as a child and is now acting out.

With that being said i think Archie suggested an alternative meeting place in case the forum goes down while Cliff gets things back in order.

Cliff i think we all understand the situation you are in with your buisness and your family in relation to PFF, but myself and many others hope you are able to over come these setbacks and come back stronger than ever.

Stealing a line from Jimmy Valvano the late basketball coach from North Carolina State ,...don't give up, don't ever give up !

quote Originally posted by lurker: shaun41178, that would be "Pied", not "Pide".

SHHH, remember they are the "smartest people".

quote Originally posted by lurker: shaun41178, that would be "Pied", not "Pide".

t0t41 p\/\/n4g3

Cut and paste from my crazy thread in OT...

OK, here's my "broken forum" rant.
I've obviously attracted some people that don't like me. It happens here in the forum, where my size is irrelevant. Right now someone thinks that I'm part of the terrorist cell that denied access to a website for about 10 minutes. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that one. I've been coming here since summer of 99, when everyone knew Monkeyman and Batboy. I joined on Jan 2000, while me Fiero was getting rebuilt. I've pretty much lived and breathed this forum for years. Good people came and went. When busters would come on the forum bragging how they made a twin turbo Diablo replica but they don;t have a camera, we'd call bullshit. The busters just stopped posting on their own, or vanish after they ripped someone off.

The rest of us had a pretty cool time. The only people that got banned were 10 year old kids playing on their computer about how Fieros suck and Kias rule etc etc.

That was a long time ago. A whole lot of people joined, some who are brilliant technicians who can build an engine in their livingroom, people who organized gatherings, some who just made PFF an interesting place to be. I guess I mostly served the latter function, I had a lot to write about, and I got a reputation as one of the first to call bullshit when it came around.

This forum got huge. More people who had anonymous names like :87ecocoupe or GTwhateverguy, couldn't tell themselves apart. A lot of people asking the same questions,less time for me to tell my stories, more people who didn't "get me" yet. Then just in time to quit revved up for the political season comes RATING BARS! I thought it might be good to slap the playful 10 year olds for being stupid, but it has grown to be something different in my eyes.

People started to seem to hold grudges and fueds more easily. I know for sure I was. But while it was kind of an initiation mark to beef with me, as it got bigger I just look meanspirited. There's a guy by the name of APShaugnessy in Texas who accused my of making up Jose to steal money at Christmas, edhering brags whenever he rates me negative, camron claims I'm a bully who has never contributed to the Fiero community, Fierogirlsmom has some idea that I called her a slut and mentioned it in a letter that my wife read, Sparkjl on the Chat last night (which helped a lot, Pokey) questioned why I should be on the chat becasue I posted a link to a mirror journal like this theat I'm doing on PSS. Now Electrothorn is convinced that I had my hand in some internet McGuyver sabatoge. <Edit- Now Delaware Fiero has stated that my recent nervous disorders are somehow karmically justified because I have posted on PSS.>

I'm not sayng that this is how the forum has gone, but in a nutshell it's how it;s gone for me. For every hater I have 20 friends who would buy be a beer, so I do love this place and the people, but do I need this drama in my life? Maybe Cliff does need to do what he needs to do and take care of his family. It's like taking your hand out of a bucket of water, the void will be filled. There are at least 3 other forums maintained right now that could handle the traffic. I still love it here, but sometimes I go over there just so I can laugh about some of the ridiculousness of the drama. Everyone is welcome.

[This message has been edited by stimpy (edited 03-13-2005).]

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[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 03-13-2005).]

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[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-13-2005).]

OPTIONS OPTIONS OPTIONS...what are our options?

Perhaps we should be thinking more like: "IF Cliff actually decides to shut the forum down, what are our options?"

We could find one of us who's got the computer skills, time, and money to run a new message board, and hopefully have fiero.nl forward to that board while the transition takes place.

We could wonder if someone with a fiero-related buisness might consider it an investment to host the board, or even a less-bandwidth-hogging non-picture-hosting version of it in return for, of course, infinite advertising potential.

We could go to one of the more established message board providers that have been doing this for years, though over time most have now begun wanting fees to use the features etc.

I dont know, but perhaps we could use the old Usenet system (I havent seen that stuff in YEARS... I wonder if it finally fell to the spam demons)...nah thats probably a bad idea afterall.

But in any case, before this board goes down, it would be very very wise to at least agree on a site that we could use to get information on where to regroup.

And remember, people like this doofy nerd that is causing the trouble ALWAYS exist. Any social networking scheme eventually gets weighed down by dweebs and there's no one solution that fixes it. So the next place we go will soon become infested too. Ya just gotta roll with it. And by the way, if the board is hosted by an individual, that individual is king, and if you dont like it, there's the door.

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87 Quad 4 HO convertible

Bump for the morning crew. Lets keep this forum...

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8T6 GT

Well I have started a thread here
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/049989.html

I wanted to get a group of IT people listed to try to analyze Cliffs issues with his servers. If given the chance we should be able to pinpoint the actual events and where they came from if certain logs are active on his servers and network hardware. Anyone who wants to help I have told Cliff I am ready to do so and I want to get a list of others with IT qualification as well. Lets all help where we can...At this point it doesnt matter who did it. If we can save PFF and make it less vulnerable without him having to take his servers down and risk capital loses then thats what we have to do. After we close the holes if there are any then we can figure out where the problem originated from and work from there.

quote Originally posted by Azriel: These things happen. When I was doing a lot of computer mods I had to change providers because my server was being attacked several times a day. That was just poor unimaginative bastards who wanted to steal my work and call it their own. The way I look at it, it's good news that they "comprimised" the server. Look at the server logs, shut down whatever got them in. It's not a big thing. If the forum goes down, and stays down, it won't hurt anyone for very long. Personally I think this is an excuse, but it doesn't matter. If Cliff no longer wants to run a forum, that is his choice. It may even be a positive thing in the end. I get a really creepy "big brother" feeling about this place. I have no idea who cliff is. Does he even own a fiero, cause I have never seen one. One guy nobody knows controlling everything. There's a word for that. Fascism. How many of you can say for certain that nobody ever got banned without a tweak here and there to their ratings bar? I've seen more than one thread closed for no good reason, other than it somehow offended Cliff. What happened today was most likely just ping spamming. Basic lamer trick. That's what it looked like, that is how the forum behaved. Sh!t, I'll be banned tomorrow just for typing this. Before you flame me. You have all thought it. I just had the balls to say it.

BANNED.. Oh well, seems as if you wanted to press to test. Congrats, it worked. Your insensitivity was brash enough to get under a few folks skin.

quote Originally posted by Azriel: These things happen. When I was doing a lot of computer mods I had to change providers because my server was being attacked several times a day. That was just poor unimaginative bastards who wanted to steal my work and call it their own. The way I look at it, it's good news that they "comprimised" the server. Look at the server logs, shut down whatever got them in. It's not a big thing. If the forum goes down, and stays down, it won't hurt anyone for very long. Personally I think this is an excuse, but it doesn't matter. If Cliff no longer wants to run a forum, that is his choice. It may even be a positive thing in the end. I get a really creepy "big brother" feeling about this place. I have no idea who cliff is. Does he even own a fiero, cause I have never seen one. One guy nobody knows controlling everything. There's a word for that. Fascism. How many of you can say for certain that nobody ever got banned without a tweak here and there to their ratings bar? I've seen more than one thread closed for no good reason, other than it somehow offended Cliff. What happened today was most likely just ping spamming. Basic lamer trick. That's what it looked like, that is how the forum behaved. Sh!t, I'll be banned tomorrow just for typing this. Before you flame me. You have all thought it. I just had the balls to say it.

Although I have resisted the temptation to rate you, my question is what was your intent with this posting if not to do anything but get folks riled up and get banned. There is no perfect society or forum. It would appear the your intent to "just" exercise your oppinion is actually an attempt to ignite an already flamable situation. You have demonstrated a curious attitude, I'm somewhat puzzled unless your intent was to get banned that is.
There are tactful ways to disagree and express yourself that will still get your points across, having the ba11s to state your oppinion as you have done is one way to go, I guess.

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Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

is there anyone who can run a backup forum till Cliff decides what he is going to do? My fiero would have been sent to the scrap yard if it weren't for this place.

quote Originally posted by aerosmithr0cker: is there anyone who can run a backup forum till Cliff decides what he is going to do? My fiero would have been sent to the scrap yard if it weren't for this place.

There are several around, but none that hold a candle to this place. And I'll sell both of my Fieros before I join the sucks forum. I hear enough of that kind of language at work.

quote Originally posted by aerosmithr0cker: is there anyone who can run a backup forum till Cliff decides what he is going to do? My fiero would have been sent to the scrap yard if it weren't for this place.

Please don't take this as being the demise of all things Fiero On the net, even though that's what Pennocks is right now. Forums exist right now at Fieronews.com, Fiero.com, at CFOGi's website, and yes, even PSS for the rude ones of us in the bunch. I worry about Cliff. He's a newleywed with a baby, yet he goes through all this just to have one of the lowest post counts for someone who has been a member since 99, much less for day one.
Is he really getting out what he's putting in, or would he enjoi us just as much as if he were one of us, reading at a different forum.

I hope it doesn't go, as it's an amazing archive. But what we do in the future can be done anywhere by just about anyone. I can't, but there are hundereds of guys on this forum techie enough to give it a go. Relaz Cliff, but if you do decide to hang it up 1) burn a volume 3 CD and offer a box set and 2) Give us some notice.

Stimpy is right in this. I can assure you that if I call it a quits, I will transfer everything, the forum, the archives, all programs behind it, all administrative programs I've written, etc. to someone willing to take the torch. I will not simply shut it down. You will not loose the forum, I simply won't be a part of it anymore.

I wouldn't blame the script kiddies on PSF for the hack over here, they aren't that smart, but I wouldn't put it past then to look for someone with the skills to do it. They do hate this forum afterall. Stating your mind in a comfrontational way and asking to be banned will also get you what you wish. It appears that we still have members that haven't figured this out, afterall it is common sense and how one would expect to act in public (real life). Hidding behind a screen and keyboard will not save you from a virtual boot. Blaming Cliff for being banned is wrong also. He let us, the members, police ourselves. We are the ones who vote to ban someone, not Cliff. He has left this in our hands. If you don't know how to behave or be civil, don't be surprised when your ratings bar appears and it is all red, what else were you expecting. There is a way to call BS on someone too without insulting them or being rated negatively for doing so. All you have to do is point out verifyable facts and prove them wrong. No need for name calling. Attacking Cliff's method of operation will not gain you brownie points with other members either (Cryptnix comes to mind), especially those who don't frequent or contribute to this site very often. Those of us who are true members and contributors to this forum know who he is and what his house policies are. We all aren't perfect and have broken some of the rules (myself included) from time to time, but the members and Cliff have been kind enough to remind us of our transgressions so we can correct them. Some people do not learn from this and will flagrantly break the rules till they are banned and not care about it. These are the ones that don't deserve to be here. Membership here is a priviledge, not a right, so if you don't want to follow the rules you can expect to be banned.
From Cliff's ammended anouncement, it sounds to me like he would still want to keep the forum alive and is seeking technical suggestions as to how to do this. It also wouldn't hurt if all that can contribute do so. I gave money at the end of last month but I will give more if it is needed. Cliff was posting who was contributing by each month, but he hasn't updated the list recently. I felt this list help us see how much was going in to help keep the forum running and I wished it was kept up to date or made more prominent.
Hacking the forum and disrupting Cliff's business is criminal and those who are involved should be punished for their illegal actions. The members of PSF don't seem to realize this and only think that the members of PFF were inconvenienced. What they don't realize is that Cliff's customers were inconvenienced too because of this, even if it was just ten minutes, it should not have happened at all.
Let me just say this in closing, if you don't feel comfortable in this forum, if you can't be a bit civilized in this forum, and if you can't follow the rules here, please leave and never come back. Save us the trouble of having to ban you. The way things are going now, we will all be lucky to have a forum as nice as this one to come to. I don't think that PSF is an alternative even if they were to have Fiero geniuses over there. The childish attitude and language they use gets boring extremly fast. I have another good site I frequent, but I don't know if it could handle the traffic this site handles.
I just hope Cliff doesn't have to close this place for good.

Right now I am more concerned about Cliff losing his real business because of the activities of the forum. If he has to shut down PFF we'll get by, but Cliff still has to feed his family.

What really annoys me are the folks over at PSF celebrating the possible demise of PFF like a bunch of terrorists. They behave like 12 year olds and flaunting their multiple fake ids and how they get so much enjoyment trolling PFF. Personally if I were Cliff I would throw in the towel it's not worth all the aggravation from a bunch of immature children.

The other part that comes into play is Cliff's time. As he pointed out, the time he spends with his non-PFF family is Non-negotiable, and that is as it should be. The fact that he is adamant about this shows his priorities are in the right place and we all should be able to understand this. The man has already gone way above and beyond what any of us could ever expect.

I am one who has neglected his financial support of this website, but will rectify that asap.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Right now I am more concerned about Cliff losing his real business because of the activities of the forum. If he has to shut down PFF we'll get by, but Cliff still has to feed his family. What really annoys me are the folks over at PSF celebrating the possible demise of PFF like a bunch of terrorists. They behave like 12 year olds and flaunting their multiple fake ids and how they get so much enjoyment trolling PFF. Personally if I were Cliff I would throw in the towel it's not worth all the aggravation from a bunch of immature children.

I agree to a point, this forum is not Cliff's bread and butter, his business and family should be his first priority. But with that said, if this was a specific attack on the forum and not just a random hack I hate to see this forum shut down, what kind of message does that send to the "terrorist". So we disperse and regroup on another site, whats to stop that site from being compromised.
On another note I tend to lean toward the random attack theory at this point, I don't see the collective intelligence on the anti-board pulling this off without outside assistance, more likely it was a twelve year old with to much time on their hands, wait, they kinda fit that discription don't they!
I ramble at this point, still kinda weirded out about the whole thing.

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I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: What really annoys me are the folks over at PSF celebrating the possible demise of PFF like a bunch of terrorists. They behave like 12 year olds and flaunting their multiple fake ids and how they get so much enjoyment trolling PFF. Personally if I were Cliff I would throw in the towel it's not worth all the aggravation from a bunch of immature children.

I want to know what forum you are reading. There are more than a few members there (like the vast majority), myself included that have condemned this hack. But when a certain PFF member did his little hack at PSF gobbling up tons of bandwidth, you didn't hear a peep of dissent from anyone here.

If I knew it was somebody from there, I would blow them in without a second thought, but I know that no one there did it. Although I would be very disappointed if I found out someone from there, or anyone who enjoys Fieros would have done this hack. It just wouldn't make sense.

Oh and comparing a hack of a server, to the deaths of thousands of people, trivializes every single one of those persons deaths. Please use a little more common sense with the word "terrorist".

EDIT: Changed "condoned" to "condemned"

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 03-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I wouldn't blame the script kiddies on PSF for the hack over here, they aren't that smart, but I wouldn't put it past then to look for someone with the skills to do it. They do hate this forum afterall. Stating your mind in a comfrontational way and asking to be banned will also get you what you wish. It appears that we still have members that haven't figured this out, afterall it is common sense and how one would expect to act in public (real life). Hidding behind a screen and keyboard will not save you from a virtual boot. Blaming Cliff for being banned is wrong also. He let us, the members, police ourselves. We are the ones who vote to ban someone, not Cliff. He has left this in our hands. If you don't know how to behave or be civil, don't be surprised when your ratings bar appears and it is all red, what else were you expecting. There is a way to call BS on someone too without insulting them or being rated negatively for doing so. All you have to do is point out verifyable facts and prove them wrong. No need for name calling. Attacking Cliff's method of operation will not gain you brownie points with other members either (Cryptnix comes to mind), especially those who don't frequent or contribute to this site very often. Those of us who are true members and contributors to this forum know who he is and what his house policies are. We all aren't perfect and have broken some of the rules (myself included) from time to time, but the members and Cliff have been kind enough to remind us of our transgressions so we can correct them. Some people do not learn from this and will flagrantly break the rules till they are banned and not care about it. These are the ones that don't deserve to be here. Membership here is a priviledge, not a right, so if you don't want to follow the rules you can expect to be banned. From Cliff's ammended anouncement, it sounds to me like he would still want to keep the forum alive and is seeking technical suggestions as to how to do this. It also wouldn't hurt if all that can contribute do so. I gave money at the end of last month but I will give more if it is needed. Cliff was posting who was contributing by each month, but he hasn't updated the list recently. I felt this list help us see how much was going in to help keep the forum running and I wished it was kept up to date or made more prominent. Hacking the forum and disrupting Cliff's business is criminal and those who are involved should be punished for their illegal actions. The members of PSF don't seem to realize this and only think that the members of PFF were inconvenienced. What they don't realize is that Cliff's customers were inconvenienced too because of this, even if it was just ten minutes, it should not have happened at all. Let me just say this in closing, if you don't feel comfortable in this forum, if you can't be a bit civilized in this forum, and if you can't follow the rules here, please leave and never come back. Save us the trouble of having to ban you. The way things are going now, we will all be lucky to have a forum as nice as this one to come to. I don't think that PSF is an alternative even if they were to have Fiero geniuses over there. The childish attitude and language they use gets boring extremly fast. I have another good site I frequent, but I don't know if it could handle the traffic this site handles. I just hope Cliff doesn't have to close this place for good.

Whether or not the attack was random, or perpetrated by specific individuals with an agenda, is not an issue I can address.

As a business manager, I would hope Cliff can regroup, and operate this forum as a profitable enterprise. Both financially, and for personal satisfaction. It appears as if he is very frustrated at how it has become a tremendous burden on his life, rather than a restorative hobby.

I see that many of the IT professional members are rushing to the "assist". Hopefully, out of this group there are some that he can find to trust, and then delegate operational responsibility to.

I made an immediate financial donation, and a promise to make another if this situation can be resolved. I intended this as an incentive for the group to come together as a team, and make this forum an enjoyable experience for Cliff again, One that he can manage by delegation, so a greater portion of his time can be spent with his family.

Others are doing the same, in terms of both money and time. I see no reason why we as a group, cannot make this better than it was before. For us, and especially for Cliff.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: I want to know what forum you are reading.

I think you know what forum I'm reading..and I don't know if you are Shaun or whoever over there, but that forum is the biggest group of immature people I have ever seen. And someone who releases a malicious hack into someone else's server theatening their livelihood is a terrorist. And even if they didn't do it, if they are celebrating the hack then yes they are behaving like terrorists.

I think you need to pick up a dictionary to "condone" the hack mean you overlook or disregard the offense. In other words the majority of the other forum saw nothing wrong with the hack?

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: But when a certain PFF member did his little hack at PSF gobbling up tons of bandwidth, you didn't hear a peep of dissent from anyone here.

I've been hearing about that in the last 24 hours. That's news to me. Guess I missed another "green-bar brigade" meeting.
Seriously, though, I was unaware of any PFF member hacking PSF.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: I know that no one there did it.

You "know" this, or you "believe" this to be true? Important difference. Cliff said he doesn't think it was Shaun, but there is IP evidence that some attempts have been made from locations very close to those of banned members. I still believe in innocence until proven guilty, but the evidence should be investigated.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I think you know what forum I'm reading..and I don't know if you are Shaun or whoever over there, but that forum is the biggest group of immature people I have ever seen. And someone who releases a malicious hack into someone else's server theatening their livelihood is a terrorist. And even if they didn't do it, if they are celebrating the hack then yes they are behaving like terroists.

terrorist

adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

quote Originally posted by stimpy:

Glad to see you're feeling better and getting back to normal, Stimpy.

READ the announcements.............

Donated money.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Glad to see you're feeling better and getting back to normal, Stimpy.

Actually I'm in even more of a fog from no sleep. People need to learn how to use paragraphs.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: terrorist ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm) n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I see you do have a dictionary, now look up "condone" and tell me again that the majority of the other forum condone the hack? So they are terrorists. Where does it say that thousands have to die before you get your terrorist badge? The threat is what constitutes the crime.

Cliff ignored the threats, then (coincidently?) his server was attacked. I don't know if any of the other forum members did it or not. They are innocent until proven guilty, but their celebratinng after the attack was disgusting to me.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You "know" this, or you "believe" this to be true? Important difference. Cliff said he doesn't think it was Shaun, but there is IP evidence that some attempts have been made from locations very close to those of banned members. I still believe in innocence until proven guilty, but the evidence should be investigated.

Yeah, I should not have said that I "know". But I do believe it to be true. There are a number of banned members there, but there are maybe 6-8 or so banned members there who are actually regular posters and contributors. Of those 6-8 or so there are maybe 3 members who truly hate pennocks. I don't believe it to be any of those three. I know there are a bunch of other banned members out there, and could it be one of these other people, possibly, but I just don't see any reason why someone who loves a Fiero would want to go after this place. Some people might not like this place for this reason or that but, this is the central gathering for information, parts, research and development, and vendors. Any attack at this place would hinder all Fiero owners, including the hacker.
But if it were an attack by a Fiero owner, which I highly doubt, he's an idiot, and he must really have a personal hatred of Cliff to put so much at risk. Obviously that statement leaves the door open to a number of potential attacks on certain subjects, but I know people are going to believe what they are going to believe.

As for the similar IP's, well I'm not internet-smart enough to draw any conclusions from that other than I know that banned members from the PSF still get on to the forum and they obviously would have had to alter their IP, since their own are blocked. Maybe someone with more computer experience than me can make conclusions.

But I do hope that Cliff is able to find out who did this. What I do know from my work is that internet-based mischief in places like nigeria, a lot of eastern europe, and the former Soviet states have exploded in the past year. That's where I'd be putting my money on.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: Actually I thank you for pointing that out for me, I met to put "condemn". I'll change that now. It should make much more sense.

Well that makes more sense. I would hope that the majority of the other forum would not want to see PFF hacked. I didn't even know the other forum existed until I saw a link yesterday, but the majority of what I saw there turned my stomach. I wouldn't join that forum if it was the last Fiero Forum on Earth.

First let me say that I hope whoever is responsible for this is caught and held accountable somehow. Doing such a childish thing that could have a significant impact on a man's livlihood is nothing more than a amalicious act brought about by complete stupidity. I to will do my part to support Cliff and the forum as I too find myself spending a portion of almost every day here just relaxing and learning and contemplating my project which, with any luck, should begin this spring once the weather gets better.

That being said....I occasionally visit the anti site just to see if they have anything interesting to say in the tech section, as do others here. While I don't agree with some of the venom they spew against this forum, as I strongly believe most of them brought upon their banning on their own, it does have useful and interesting information about he fiero.

When I read about what happened here, I checked in over there because my first thought was someone over there took it a bit too far and did something stupid. However, in checking back, it appears that a number of members over there have condemned (the word I think AcursedX meant when he saiid condoned) the hack.

It is true that Shaun said "My hack worked" when Stimpy indicated that PFF was down, as an impartial observer, I thought it was merely a tasteless joke, not an admission of guilt. While I don't know Shaun well enough to make a judgment call as to whether he wold be capable of something like what happened to Cliff's servers, nor do I know if he has the ability, I do not think he would be stupid enough to admit this activity on a forum he knows if regularly reviewed by many member who enjoy and respect this forum. It would be similar to someone on the 60*6 forum admitting they did it.

I say we all stand down little and wait to see what Cliff finds out. If it turns out to be someone from PSF then so be it, we, or more appropriately Cliff, will deal with it in a manner he sees fit. But to get angry at each other and them before we have ALL the facts is realy just a waste of time and energy.

Lets keep the energy here positive and look at ways we can protect this forum and assist Cliff in his time of need just like this forum has asssted many of us in our time of need.

Let's wait for all the facts to come out, not form an angry lynch mob without knowing who is responsible...it doesn't do any good.

Additionally, some of the people at PSF are more amused at the fact that many people over here are getting all worked up and accusing them of commiting this awful act that they are that the forum may actually be in trouble.

Let keep this place civil and wait until we know what happened before we start pointing fingers.

My opinion -- give it the weight you think its due...or tell me to go to helll....whatever you like.

Kelin

Anytime an activity in a public place is "free" it allows for riffraff, who have no interest in the activity, to loiter and disrupt that activity.

Maybe it's time for Cliff to consider economic exclusion (charge admission to the forum) as a way of keeping individuals with no interest in Fieros, just an interest in disruption and argument for arguements sake, off the forum. Charging a membership fee would do a couple of things, it would help defray the costs of operating the forum including addition of technology upgrades needed for self protection of the forum and forum information, and sift out the casual disrupter who is signing in just to agravate the legitimate members. I would certainly be willing to pay a reasonable monthly or yearly membership fee for the wisdom and information that I have been a beneficiary of during my couple of years of Fiero ownership. This forum has even helped me with problems on my wife's S10 Blazer when the best advice the S10 forum could provide was "get a Chilton's manual".

I've paid a lot more for a lot less (FOCOA membership & newletter) trying to find a good source of Fiero information in the past. I would hope that Cliff can find a way to make this forum less of a personal burdon on himself and his family.

Good luck Cliff! Regardless of your decision I will understand.

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RickN
White 88GT 5spd
White 85GT Auto

It was Dude16!! His revenge for keeping his thread alive in the trash can!! Ahh the good old days with Dude16...

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Stimpy is right in this. I can assure you that if I call it a quits, I will transfer everything, the forum, the archives, all programs behind it, all administrative programs I've written, etc. to someone willing to take the torch. I will not simply shut it down. You will not loose the forum, I simply won't be a part of it anymore.

I think thats all anyone needs to hear. We all want this forum to stay alive, but we all know that you. your life, and your family come first without question. If we can have both, the forum and you happy, everybody wins. You do whats right by you, Cliff.

quote Originally posted by Azriel: It wasn't my intention to piss people off with that, although it's the reaction I expected, and I posted it anyway. Well, you know what? I really don't care. Hammer on those rating buttons like a good little cog in the machine. Or, you could think for yourselves. You could express your opinion even though you know it won't be popular. Oh, but you'll get banned, won't you?

Well, you did. Wierd thing is I gave you a neutral... I wonder if my little post influenced the mob? I don't quite think your comments deserved a banning, I think some dissention is important. Even if your particular statements didn't hold water.

I wonder if any of these guys on the other web site will show up in Daytona next weekend.

Bonzo

Why wouldn't they? They are fiero owners afterall. Last I heard it wasn't by invitation only.

quote Originally posted by bonzo: I wonder if any of these guys on the other web site will show up in Daytona next weekend. Bonzo

Oooh, will there be fisticuffs?! I want to go.