Well today I installed the MSD 6BTM. And drove it home. The car had a very noticable dead spot between 0 vacuum and 2 psi boost, before the MSD. Now it just pauses for a moment. When Rockcrawl and I can sit down I am sure we can make the appropriate changes to the PROM.
The engine pulls really hard even when boost is not above 0, just making the engine not have to work for its air is a huge advantage. This will definately be a mover.
More to come, it was a long day at work today. only a wee bit was spent on the Fiero.
Pete
[This message has been edited by PBJ (edited 03-10-2003).]
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08:59 PM
Mar 15th, 2003
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
Sorry to bring up the TBI unit again but alot of the TBI's don't interchange. Do you have a rough guess of what years safari or year/model truck I can get one of these from? How do I know it has the right IAC motor?
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01:39 PM
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
The difference between years would be types of sensors on it, different mounting attachments for the sensors. They all will work the same. Rockcrawl got one that was from a 350 sbc and has larger throttle bores, which I think would work better.
So mine is from 88 safari. The best for naturally asperated would be one from a TBI 350 from a pick up truck.
Pete
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07:21 PM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
To Her86gt: very impressive project. The roads in London will never be the same again. Oh by the way, I travel through London every day (I teach autoshop in Parkhill HS ), where is the shop Pete works at? I would love to check out your project someday when its not tearing up the streets.
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06:12 AM
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
I have new information, well not scientific information, just by-the-seat-of-the-pants info.
The turbo set up is a great success; much better than my expectations. Huge success!It still is in the "production" stages with lots of tuning remaining.
I have found that anything over 5 psi boost (have run 7 psi max) gives a decrease in power and HUGE increase in spark knock and ignition spark timing retard. Thus less power more clatter.
I have found that 5 pounds of vacuum to 2 pounds of pressure the 4.9 pulls incredible with NO power lose with rpm.
I have found very little benifit running over 2 psi boost.
I believe that just giving the 4.9 air rather that making it work for it has been the key to this turbos success.
2 psi boost does not sound like much but when you think the difference between the engine not having to "suck" the air in but have it there flowing makes the difference on this engine.
I think I may cut back from 5 psi boost to 4 maybe 3. To keep the boost to preignition in line.
These are my thoughts after 2 weeks of driving, total kms so far 180 kms.
Have you tried any octane additive? I will really hate to believe 2 psi of boost isn't beneficial on a 4.9? Also how does the MSD BTM work in regards to controlling timing? in other words are you pulling back timing via load/MAP in relation to KR or does the unit just take off from spark advance in relation to load?
------------------ 3800 II v6 intercooled turbo...CWP!
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11:45 PM
Mar 22nd, 2003
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Have you hooked up the alky injection system? I'll bet if you get that knock under control 5psi would be even better. How are you controlling boost? I thought the electronic wastegate wasn't under your control? It sounds like the BTM isn't doing a great job....how many degrees retard per psi boost do you have it set at?
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10:41 PM
Mar 23rd, 2003
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
The water injection system is by-passed for the time being. I have been using its pressure sensor to operate the electronic dump valve. So yes once the water/alcohol injection system is working at the 4+ psi boost this will help to bring down combustion chamber temperatures. The MSD 6btm has helped, not as much as I hoped in the spark retard under boost (adjustable upto 3 degree retard per 1 lbs of boost) but more so in the MSD portion. I have been in contact with Rockcrawl and we are discussing changes in the spark knock attack rates. We do not have a problem with audible spark knock under 6psi boost. To be completely honest I have been spending more time working on the firebird dash than the turbo because the turbo is working so well .
Pete
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01:31 AM
Seanpaul Member
Posts: 1320 From: Santa Rosa, North CA. Registered: Mar 2003
PBJ please tell me that you are going to provide a kit, or give detailed documentation and references so we can have a nice turbo setup too!!...Please,please...
To be completely honest I have been spending more time working on the firebird dash than the turbo because the turbo is working so well .
Pete
So how does the dash project go? are you winning? I didn't see any more updates in the dash thread. I've also noticed that you don't have a rating. How could this be?
[This message has been edited by tech teacher (edited 03-23-2003).]
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09:07 AM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
I think you have to have both negative and positive ratings to get a bar. PBJ must be all in the plus! What do you have your MSD set at? 1? 2? 3? I was thinking of going 2 degrees retard per psi. Thats the route I went on my nitrous, 2 degrees per every 50 shot for a total of 6 degrees retard on the 150 shot. Glad to hear about the turbo success....volumetric efficiency is a wonderful thing isn't it!
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11:07 AM
Her86GT Member
Posts: 1173 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2001
I think you have to have both negative and positive ratings to get a bar. PBJ must be all in the plus!
From what I understand about the rating system, one needs at least 50 ratings from 50 different people to aquire a bar. These ratings can be all positive or all negative - it doesn't matter. If anyone has seen Cliff's rating bar, his is ALL positive.
Anyways, back on topic, I drove my car yesturday for a while. I was leaving a Tim Hortons and was thinking this car feels great! I got to an innersection at a red light and I had pole position (this is what I call it when I'm the first car at the stop line). So the light went green and I gunned it - well, I went a bit easy because there isn't a waste gate on it yet so I went as hard as it read 2 psi on the boost gauge. I was thinking, "Man, this thing feels like what is did last year." Until I looked in the rear view mirror and I couldn't believe how far I was ahead of the other cars (on wet road too). I guess I'm somewhat used to the power so it's hard to tell with me but there was no lying about how this car is going to do off the line. There is a significant difference with the turbo. And it has a nice whine to it
The Firebird dash was taken out last week and was sent for painting to a guy who specializes in automotive trim repair and refurbishing. We should get it back sometime this coming week. We have another guy working on molding in the gauge pod into the drivers side A pillar.
I got frustrated trying to find grey interior to match the Firebird dash so I went with the tan. The dash is going to be tan but not the yellow tan that the Fieros are. It will be more of a very light brown to match my Sunfire seats. We plan to use a Sunfire steering wheel as well. We should have lots of pics up next week on the dash thread.
Well today I installed the MSD 6BTM. And drove it home. The car had a very noticable dead spot between 0 vacuum and 2 psi boost, before the MSD. Now it just pauses for a moment. When Rockcrawl and I can sit down I am sure we can make the appropriate changes to the PROM.
The engine pulls really hard even when boost is not above 0, just making the engine not have to work for its air is a huge advantage. This will definately be a mover.
More to come, it was a long day at work today. only a wee bit was spent on the Fiero.
Pete
[This message has been edited by PBJ (edited 03-10-2003).]
A while back I experimented with an MSD BTM but had difficulty getting it to work properly. The engine experienced a bit of detonation before the retard was introduced. Hope that you have better success with this box than I did.. I've found it preferable to make all the changes to fueling and timing in the chip. As for the dead spot, I was able to cure this on my turbo setup by getting a better "pump shot " via widening of the injector pulse width on the PE MAP vs. RPM vs injector pulse width table. I had to dramatically increaee the pulse width in the PE (acceleration enrichment) cycle to get rid of the dead spots. With my present program lag is not noticable and the engine pulls steady to the redline. Tuning with a turbo is often a difficult task but with enough of an effort, great results can be achieved.
I will get out and take some today - thanks for the reminder. My camera has been taking a bit of a rest due to the nasty weather we had a month ago. I needed the incentive to get snap-happy.
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12:50 PM
FieroSTETZ Member
Posts: 1742 From: Orange County, CA Registered: Aug 99
who cares about photos, we need some video (sound!!!!) if someone gets video i can host about 10 mb for a short time. if i can get the video i will recompress it to fit as much as possible on my server
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01:35 PM
Her86GT Member
Posts: 1173 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2001
We have had some struggles with the waste gate control. We tried blowing off the excess boost but found we were just blowing the release solenoids. Since we have to make this from scratch, we might as well design it right. We needed wastegate control at 5 psi and therefore needed it to not open gradually before 5 psi. We tried an electric switch controlling a vacuum actuator on the wastegate but found the boost pressure was not high enough to overcome the required spring pressure to hold the wastegate door closed. We are now using a wastegate vacuum actuator from a Chrysler LeBaron turbo. When installed, in the factory turbo position, it still could not hold the wastegate closed tight enough to produce adequate boost. We had to relocate the actuator 2" further away in order to lengthen the wastegate door arm. This gained the mechanical advantage of adding more pressure to hold the wastegate door closed. Now a blow off valve is still to come. It's hard to keep the engine's appearance "clean" from all the additional hoses and piping. But we're working on it.
Thoughts from Pete just my typing
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05:40 PM
Apr 29th, 2003
Her86GT Member
Posts: 1173 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2001
Put a blow-off valve on it today. It has an interesting new sound, a swish when you let off the gas after accelerating. Makes you want to look around for the truck who's releasing the airbrake. Also new sig test.
------------------
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07:57 PM
May 24th, 2003
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Well the car has come a long way. Beck and I were down at Rockcrawls for a bit and made some changes after a few road tests. We come up with a few area's to address. The first was how quick the ecm reponds to knock, Jon was able to make changes to how quick the ecm reponds to pre ignition and how fast it re applies the timing. I had the ecm attacking or should I say hacking too fast at the timing so he dulled it down a bit Next after some road test we found it has great low end and much improved mid range with only a mild change to top end with the turbo (compared to what we hoped for). So something is not right yet, We removed the exhaust from Becks car after the Turbo, and gave it a few revs, right away we could notice a differance in the turbo's responce even reving the engine under no load. So Jon made up some new exhaust and we were off the the road test. Well now the waste gate that use to control the boost to 5 psi has let the turbo spool up to 15 psi-not good. We had to re work the waste gate's ability to dump air. We came up with cure, and now has fully adjustable linkages. Now it is ready for the track. But rain has canceled our test and tune nights twice for us at the local drag strip. SOON.
The new exhaust pic
Pete
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08:02 PM
Jun 9th, 2003
fiero_power Member
Posts: 18 From: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2003
OMG MR.FIECADDY hmmmm i wanna see that car race my dads buddys 3.8 THAT WOULD BE A RACE!!! you should go to the strip.... sometime... and TEST IT SEE WHAT YOUR BEAST IS MADE OF... what are you running lately?
OMG MR.FIECADDY hmmmm i wanna see that car race my dads buddys 3.8 THAT WOULD BE A RACE!!! you should go to the strip.... sometime... and TEST IT SEE WHAT YOUR BEAST IS MADE OF... what are you running lately?
email me back fiero_power@hotmail.com thanks BART
That woulden't happen to be the fiero that is takeing out all the rice in the ajax area?
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09:59 PM
Jun 10th, 2003
Her86GT Member
Posts: 1173 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2001
The first time we went out to the track Beck was running 15's. Then we took the car down to PA and Rockcrawl and I made some changes after some brainstorming and the car was 13.9. Now after changing the shift timing Beck is consitantly running 13.6's. We are still playing and trying some things. The car is very strong on the start of the track and average on the top end, for now anyways.
Pete
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07:02 AM
Oct 1st, 2003
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
Question about the truck in the background. Does it belong to GTDude?? Was wondering with all the flames around it.
------------------ **************************************** 86 SE Needs every thing but a Motor & Sunroof Seal!!! Now for Sale! $1200.00 http://home.cfl.rr.com/fierose Web Master Central Florida Fieros http://www.centralfloridafieros.com Will entertain for SIG! Photoshop Challenged. Only you can help stop Text Sig's!
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08:06 PM
TaurusThug Member
Posts: 4271 From: Simpsonville, SC Registered: Aug 2003
Well, the engine is out of the car for a custom rebuild. Port, polish, high lift cam, roller rockers etc. Tranny is in for an overhaul too (something about drag racing the car every weekend)
Got some more info on different routing of the exhaust and the car should be running 12's next season. I don't want the car doing under 12 seconds because according to NHRA racing rules, anything faster than 11.999 needs a roll cage and I'm not authorizing one for my car. The cars are small enough as it is let alone having to crawl over a roll bar to get in. It's still a show car and all.
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09:31 PM
Oct 2nd, 2003
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
.
Next after some road test we found it has great low end and much improved mid range with only a mild change to top end with the turbo (compared to what we hoped for). So something is not right yet, We removed the exhaust from Becks car after the Turbo, and gave it a few revs, right away we could notice a differance in the turbo's responce even reving the engine under no load. So Jon made up some new exhaust and we were off the the road test. Well now the waste gate that use to control the boost to 5 psi has let the turbo spool up to 15 psi-not good. We had to re work the waste gate's ability to dump air. We came up with cure, and now has fully adjustable linkages. Now it is ready for the track. But rain has canceled our test and tune nights twice for us at the local drag strip. SOON.
