quote Originally posted by MrPBody: Pity. I'd really like to find-out what's inside that can! I also think the '84-'87 steering could use less scrub radius; however, I dig the reluctance to dive into suspension R&D . . . on top of making the parts!

I'd like less scrub radius also. However that's a combination of knuckle and control arm geometry. If you want less scrub radius, use wheels with more offset. If I were to design new pieces with less scrub, I'd push the ball joints out with longer control arms, as well as changing the shape of the knuckles. That would give less scrub with offsets and caliper clearances closer to stock, but would require a lot more fabrication. Making the knuckles taller is a whole new world of complication.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

What is the difference between the 5x114.3 bolt pattern and the 5x115 pattern? Is .7mm that much for the wheels to not fit?

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quote Originally posted by Will: If you want less scrub radius, use wheels with more offset.

I do. (Grand Am 14")

quote Originally posted by MrPBody: I do. (Grand Am 14")

So do I. I have 16x6 LeBaron wheels that have considerably more offset than stock Fiero wheels. On the '87 they look a little weird because they are further in that stock, but I think that they'd do well on an '88 front suspension. Steering effort is nice with this combo.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

A free bump so others can see this.

Next year for me to get them.

John

okay, so for the 12" brakes i would want to go with the f-body brakes. I thought that someone made a kit to have 12" brakes in the rear?? Anyhow, from what i hear this sounds good and if i were in a better financial situation i would say i'll buy them, but i m not in that situation. Eventually, however, i will be.

If you were planning something like this in the future, I URGE you to move it up the priority list and buy in on this initial order, PLEASE. We NEED 10 orders in this initial batch to cover the cost of converting the tools.

There are at least two 12" rear upgrades. www.westcoastfiero.com has a C4 Corvette rotor upgrade for '88 rear, and C4 rotor and caliper upgrade for the rear of early cars.

It should be noted that the 12" F-body rotor is over 1 1/8" thick, while the C4 Corvette rotor is only 3/4" thick. The F-body rotor will give much better fade resistance.

Alternatively, the 5x115 hub carrier swap includes 10 5/8 x 1 1/8 rotors with large calipers.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Will, the reason for askin about the bolt patterns is I found some Nismo wheels in a 5x114.3 but the 6000 rear hub is 5x115. I don't know if the wheels come in that size. I am interested in getting the package but I need to decide which bolt pattern is needed. I have the HD brakes from a ZR1 which should be the same as the 12", I think they should work with the hubs?

One more question, can you get a 1" drop in the spindles?

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quote Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT: Will, the reason for askin about the bolt patterns is I found some Nismo wheels in a 5x114.3 but the 6000 rear hub is 5x115. I don't know if the wheels come in that size. I am interested in getting the package but I need to decide which bolt pattern is needed. I have the HD brakes from a ZR1 which should be the same as the 12", I think they should work with the hubs? One more question, can you get a 1" drop in the spindles?

I'm working on possible options for the rear suspension, but since GM never made any 5x4.5 cartridges, that's not easy.

I don't know anything about ZR1 brakes as such. As long as the package is designed for a stock Fiero knuckle/hub and the ID of the rotor hat section is larger than 5.625, then it will work with these new hubs.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

it is #1 on my priority list of big projects, im just flat broke and 17 years old right now I'll be going with rcc's 12 rear brake upgrade to completment your 12 front brake upgrade and 1.25" lowering spindles. With the f-body 12" brakes what bolt pattern will i need? I have rims with the 5x100 and 5x115 pattern. Otherwise do you have to machine the rotors?

thanks!
Jeff

Can I get the 5x100 hubs and use Grand Am brakes so that I can keep my stock 15" wheels? Eventually I am going to go with larger wheels and brakes. However, right now I just want to be able to lower the car and still have some adaptability for larger brakes in the future. I will be interested in the setup if I can pull this off!

quote Originally posted by Will: It should be noted that the 12" F-body rotor is over 1 1/8" thick, while the C4 Corvette rotor is only 3/4" thick. The F-body rotor will give much better fade resistance.

Considering the weight of the Fiero and the amount of heat that will be created stopping it with 12" brakes...I would argue that the reduction in rotating weight of the thinner rotors would be more useful than the increased fade resistance of the thicker rotors.

Not that Corvette's are perfect, but the thinner rotors work ok on them, they will surely work ok on a lighter car. The increased material from the larger rotor should be adequate for heat absorption, shouldn't it?

Just a thought.

Bryce
88 GT

quote Originally posted by JCW: Can I get the 5x100 hubs and use Grand Am brakes so that I can keep my stock 15" wheels? Eventually I am going to go with larger wheels and brakes. However, right now I just want to be able to lower the car and still have some adaptability for larger brakes in the future. I will be interested in the setup if I can pull this off!

You can fit the 11.25" LeBaron rotors inside the stock 15" wheels. That's one thing I kept in mind when designing this setup: it will be easier for people to buy if they don't have to change everything else around it. You can go with the 11.25" rotors right away and keep your 15" wheels.

I originally wanted to make it so that people could even keep their stock brakes, just put rear rotors on the hubs, but the ID of the rear rotors was too small to use the larger bolt circles.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Wasn't knocking anything Will, just bringing a different perspective to the table for those that may not have considered it on their own. I'm sure you've looked at it from nearly every angle, to say that you're a thorough researcher would be an understatement.

Oh, and just to show you I know where you're coming from, you can see that I love to go overkill with brakes too:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20030819-1-025990.html

I'm still working on these "dream" brakes I talk about, slowly but surely. I bought a set of used Wilwood 12.19" rotors to begin mocking stuff up and getting a better idea of how I want to do it. They're not the full 13+" brakes I'll be building, just give me a better idea of what kind of offset and clearances I'll need on things. I got them super cheap, so I know I'll be able to sell them for the same amount I paid for them. I was going to get billet dynalite II's, but now Wilwood's come out with the forged dynalite II's...so I'll probably be getting them once I can afford to plop a bunch of money down on everything at once.

I've hesitated several times on the increased weight of the huge rotors...going down to even just a 12" rotor saves a ton of rotating weight and reduces polar moment of inertia. I have finally come to terms with the fact that the race car will have all the inertia reduced, I just want to be able to stop like a mofo and fill the 17" wheels...the Northstar will still seem plenty powerful, I'm tossing this POS 3.4 pushrod motor and it won't be a minute too soon!

Keep up the good work Will.

Bryce
88 GT

quote Originally posted by Nashco: I'm still working on these "dream" brakes I talk about, slowly but surely. I bought a set of used Wilwood 12.19" rotors to begin mocking stuff up and getting a better idea of how I want to do it. They're not the full 13+" brakes I'll be building, just give me a better idea of what kind of offset and clearances I'll need on things. I got them super cheap, so I know I'll be able to sell them for the same amount I paid for them. I was going to get billet dynalite II's, but now Wilwood's come out with the forged dynalite II's...so I'll probably be getting them once I can afford to plop a bunch of money down on everything at once.

Wouldn't your dream brakes be THAT MUCH COOLER on top of new aluminum hubs and knuckles?!? Get rid of all the unsprung weight you gain in the brakes and a little of the rotating weight that you gain from the rotors. You know you want to!

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

I e-mailed Street Dreams with an order for this new hub/spindle combo. So how many of us does that make? Are we any where close to 10?

quote Originally posted by Will: Wouldn't your dream brakes be THAT MUCH COOLER on top of new aluminum hubs and knuckles?!? Get rid of all the unsprung weight you gain in the brakes and a little of the rotating weight that you gain from the rotors. You know you want to!

I already said, both my cars are 88s, otherwise I would be all over this! Stop rubbing in the aluminum spindles...not cool.

Bryce
88 GT

I'm a bit confused on the pricing and my application(it's late and I'm tired ).

I have WCF Corvette brakes that bolt up to the stock spindle. So I don't need rotors or adapters, just stock mounting holes.

How much for the 5x100mm setup...everything I need?

quote Originally posted by JCW: I e-mailed Street Dreams with an order for this new hub/spindle combo. So how many of us does that make? Are we any where close to 10?

You're the 4th that I know of.

quote Originally posted by Nashco: I already said, both my cars are 88s, otherwise I would be all over this! Stop rubbing in the aluminum spindles...not cool.

Sorry, man! I'm just enthusiastic. Wouldn't it be worth it to buy an '84-'87 beater just for this mod, though?

quote Originally posted by Joe Torma: How much for the 5x100mm setup...everything I need?

You should need one pair of spindles, for which pricing has not been set. The best estimates we have now are that they'll be about the same as the current spindles--maybe $350-$400 a pair.

You'll also need one pair of hubs. If we get enough orders, these will be $190 a pair, plus $50/pair if you want them anodized, and another $50 for the pair if you want 7075 aluminum rather than 6061, both of which options I recommend.

Then you'll need about $20 per side for '88-'92 Z28 front wheel bearings and dust seals, and a Ford dust cap that was used on just about everything. I'll publish a full parts list once the prototype parts have been made.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Gotta be somebody else who wants a set...

What are some good kit car forums for me to advertise this on?

Cool product
http://www.kitcar.ca/yabbse/index.php

Thanks. That's Ari's kit car forum isn't it? That's the one I'm always hearing about.

Any other big kit car forums?

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Here's a couple I had in my favorites:

http://lambolounge.com/

http://www.kitcentral.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=intro

perk

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 10-23-2003).]

bumpin this to the top with a message to Will. Sorry I haven't had time to ship those spindles out. I'll get to it soon as I can.

GREAT idea...I'd definitely be interested in a 'complete' package...but I'd want to standardize front/rear hubs (need to be able to rotate tires) and it would be nice to provide the rotor/hat dimensions so upgrades (Wilwood modular, for example) would be a lot easier.

Any ideas on production/availability/support?

Example: My Dad just started a '57 project, and got drop spindles that convert to disks on the front...with the spindles came a comprehensive list of GM part #s for rotors, calipers, bearings, seals, everything...that would be the BEST way to sell it...

JMHO, of course...

thanks for the innovation...looking forward to more info...

Byrdman

All of that will be provided. Go back to the first page; I thought I had a pretty good list of necessary parts there. If you have any more questions about the parts list, just ask.

Sticking to production rotors for now. Once the prototypes are produced and sorted and kinks are ironed out I'll start to look at two piece (preferrably fully floating) rotors. Camaro calipers are quite light. You won't save much weight going to Wilwood calipers.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

How about and update will and all that. I want a setup but I dont know how soon the money will be available.

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DAmnit... I was saving my money so that i could order these and now my Fiero broke down again so I'm actually in debt now. Hopefully by spring... Good luck on the order!

jeff

bump

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

will, when you get this all finalized let me know, i was going to do the drop spindles, and bigger brakes this year, but get the brakes froma different company, but if i can get the spindles, as well as the brake up grade from one place, i'm in, i do how ever work at a parts store, and can get anything in for a good price, so i would only need the fabricated stfuff from street dreams, and then a shapping list after that.

For those 5 x 4.75 bolt pattern changing spindles.... If I read right, I know that you can put those rims on the front with that kit, but what about the rear in 5 x 4.75?????? How are we suppoased to match rims when the fronts would be 5 x 4.75, and rears are 5 x 100?

For the rear on mine:

I am going to try the 6000 upright/4wd S10 hub deal, with some machine work on the hub to get it to fit on the upright. This is all so I can run C5 wheels to start, and then have a larger selection of aftermarket wheels to choose from later.

Maybe we should start looking into some type of 5x4.75" hub that would be a better match.

Hey Will - I don't remember the results of the discussion you guys had in tech. Was there ever a conclusion on an aluminum upright from a newer GM car that would work. I was just thinking that if there is a compatible one I should start with it istead of the 6000 upright.

perk

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 11-01-2003).]

I'm eagerly waiting a pricing chart organizing all of this!! Thanks Will!

CT

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Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver
86 Pontiac Fiero GT Red/Silver

quote Originally posted by hellfish87gt: will, when you get this all finalized let me know, i was going to do the drop spindles, and bigger brakes this year, but get the brakes froma different company, but if i can get the spindles, as well as the brake up grade from one place, i'm in, i do how ever work at a parts store, and can get anything in for a good price, so i would only need the fabricated stfuff from street dreams, and then a shapping list after that.

If you are going to get this setup, email Ross! strdream@iserv.net
They are working on getting things made right now. The parts WILL be produced; it will just be a much easier pill for Ross and company to swallow if they have 10 firm orders before they start.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: For those 5 x 4.75 bolt pattern changing spindles.... If I read right, I know that you can put those rims on the front with that kit, but what about the rear in 5 x 4.75?????? How are we suppoased to match rims when the fronts would be 5 x 4.75, and rears are 5 x 100?

Well... the rear is on my list of things to look at. Currently, you can go to bigger CV's, hubs, and brakes by swapping in the front hub carriers from an A-body with HD brakes. This will give you a 5x115 circle in the rear.
Multi-pattern wheels are not THAT hard to come by. If you're getting a nice set of custom wheels, which you very well may be, then getting 2 bolt circles in them shouldn't be a problem.
If you want to keep the same bolt circles front and rear, then you could have a machine shop drill your Corvette rotors with the alternate circle.

quote Originally posted by perkidelic:I don't remember the results of the discussion you guys had in tech. Was there ever a conclusion on an aluminum upright from a newer GM car that would work. I was just thinking that if there is a compatible one I should start with it istead of the 6000 upright.

The hub carrier from '98 and newer W-bodies is aluminum, and looks swappable. The ball joints are not readily compatible with Fiero control arms, so tubular rear arms to use the W-body ball joint would have to be fabbed. 12" brakes bolt onto this hub carrier in two different ways: http://www.clubgp.com/cgi-asp/mods.asp?modid=3 http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=973047&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
GMPP just released Koni struts for W-bodies, which should be adaptible to the Fiero.
The possible problem is that the W-body doesn't have as much kingping angle as the Fiero does, so there's about 4 degrees offset in range of camber adjustment. If we're lucky, there will be enough positive camber adjustment on the W-body knuckles to give -1.5 to -2 degrees on a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87:I'm eagerly waiting a pricing chart organizing all of this!! Thanks Will!

You're welcome, although I'm not sure what you're looking for. I've laid out the expected pricing twice. Just go back and read the first post.

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

You can count me in on a group buy. Just don't wait too long, I am ready to rebuild my entire suspension which will center around drop front spindles and rear coilovers.