First the typical introduction J This V8 will go into my 88 Red Formula. I bought this car new back in March of 1988 once I started my first job out of college. Like many, I dreamed about a sports car and a Fiero I got. Never in my mind I would imagine that it would give me so much grief and gratification across the years. Grief was given more or less the first 5 years as I learned the car and dealt with its quality problems and loan payment. Back then I knew about the V8 conversions but that was like a far-fetched dream. By then I wanted a turbo kit, which I never got. Then after the 8-9th year it became more a hobby car. Back in 91-92 when I knew squat about the car I wanted to have more power (like everybody else). Back then I added a CompuCam 2030 cam, roller tip rockers, Jacobs ignition & wires, eliminated TBS coolant lines, K&N filter and a catless/mufflerless exhaust system with some minor exhaust manifold porting. Because I knew squat about car mods back then, all those mods added to me about 75HP (advertised HP). Yeah right! Well it still ran well with the lame 80s cars out there back then. Then by 1998 my 2.8 was running very poor and would not rev above 4.5K RPM. Later I found out that my valve-train came loose and screwed up the cam. In that era (98-99) the 3.4 seemed like a great swap in this forum. A V8 still looked too expensive and complicated. So I ordered an Ed Parks 3.4 prepped engine and I put it in. After many mods and a lot of $$ it still managed only around 145 RWHP which was an improvement over the 2.8 but still not astonishing. Then I bought my second Fiero (yellow one) and installed a wet Nitrous Express kit into the otherwise stock 2.8. That was great and faster than the 3.4 but then it was only an on/off deal and still not that quick. By then I had a 4-door truck that was faster than my two sports cars L. Something was wrong here. So I decided to bite the bullet, ditch the 3.4 and put a nice TPI V8 like Pontiac should have done it back then to kill the Corvette. So here is my baby and the process as well as I could document it. Finally let me thank all the forum members who have posted similar threads before as I was referencing all of them for my swap. This is my “pay time” for future ones to come. V8 Fiero here I come!!
This is the featured subject holder:
and the subject to be extirpated:
And this is the cleaned and prepared operating room :
You make me want to start my V8 conversion. Now that cooler weather is here, ya never know ...
What harness are you planning on using?
Are you going speed denisty or MAF?
Cool weather will help a LOT! I lost 20lbs sweating on the September heat (not that I didn't need it). Now is a little better. I'm using the stock Fiero harness and speed density. More details on that later.
#1 fan is 2yrs & 5 months. Weight 40lbs and is over 39" tall!
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-07-2004).]
Cool weather will help a LOT! I lost 20lbs sweating on the September heat (not that I didn't need it). Now is a little better. I'm using the stock Fiero harness and speed density. More details on that later.
#1 fan is 2yrs & 5 months. Weight 40lbs and is over 39" tall!
Which ECM are you going to use? I've been spending a lot of time at www.thirdgen.org Those guys know a lot about ecm tuning. The options seem limitless.
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04:09 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Don't have handy the ECM p/n but will be I think an 87-88 Camaro one. Thirdgen.org is as awesome for Camaros as this site is for Fieros. A must for any TPI swap. Fiero harness will be modified (add injectors & extend sensors) and a custom PROM will definitely be needed. Up to now will be a speed density. Here are some pics of the first parts that arrived: TPI intake (to be powder coated);
The necessary oil relocator and adapter. I used the Transadapt because it comes with nice flared hose ends;
Powermaster starter (much much cheaper, hope it last); more to come...
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-07-2004).]
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04:31 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
After so much good feedback I decided to try the Spec clutch. There are not too many options out there anyway;
This is a new type of electric water pump (from CVR) I wanted to try. May fit well in pre 88s but as I have found out the 88 cars are a little bit more complicated with clearance areas;
And here some bling bling for that intake. This is a great buy. You get all the fasteners required for all the TPI intake parts from lower manifold and up. This way you don't have to be hunting down bolts around.
Finally for now the injectors. These are stock 88 Corvette 22lbs (non Multec) which were already sent for cleaning and blueprinting here http://www.cruzinperformance.com/injsteps.html) Great service provided by this supplier.
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-07-2004).]
Finally for now the injectors. These are stock 88 Corvette 22lbs (non Multec) which were already sent for cleaning and blueprinting here http://www.cruzinperformance.com/injsteps.html) Great service provided by this supplier.
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04:49 PM
PFF
System Bot
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Wow! Interesting how your car has evolved. I still remember when you picked up your 3.4 during the swap meet. Best of luck. Sounds like a lot of planning and research is going into your swap. If its execution and craftsmanship is like your other projects, this is going to be killer! (Even though the yellow one is still, hands down, my favorite Fiero.)
------------------ Raydar 88 3.4 coupe........... Coming soon... 88 Formula, presently under the knife. Read Nealz Nuze!
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04:58 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
At the begining the V8 swap was supposed to go into the yellow car but an SBC will do better in a stick shift car. Also the red car has much better suspension/brake mods and many more upgrades. Finally there is the sentimental value of it being the first in my heart
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05:14 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Looks like you have a beautiful start on your project and have researched very well ! Looking forward to your build-up.
Question for you on the fastener kit for the TPI Intake system: Are those fasteners Stainless Steel, if so, do you have a web-site or contact for them.
Hello, Your project is looking like its going to be super, and from your posts Im sure it will be a clean and sweet installation. Good luck and thanks Norm
------------------ Norm Vandermee
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05:22 PM
Boomtastic Member
Posts: 2359 From: Athens, Alabama Registered: May 2000
Good luck with the TPI unit - it's VERY restrictive no matter what you do (barring replacing it with something else!) .. I speak from experience when I say that it doesn't make a lot of power, regardless what the 3rd Gen folks say. If I can offer some TPI help just email me directly!
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05:31 PM
Tytehead Member
Posts: 873 From: Pewaukee, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2004
Geat thread....making a good thing even better! Keep up the good work and the great updates on the progress. Two great fieros...that totally rocks. That car is gonna be so sweet when you are done.
you shoudl ditch that TPI setup and go with like an accel system. That TPI is so restrictive its not even funny. You will be lucky to see 260 hp with it esp with stock cam and no headwork. 350 I assume?
SH
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06:26 PM
Hartz Member
Posts: 1511 From: Plymouth, MI USA Registered: Jul 99
you shoudl ditch that TPI setup and go with like an accel system. That TPI is so restrictive its not even funny. You will be lucky to see 260 hp with it esp with stock cam and no headwork. 350 I assume?
SH
Oh no! It will only be DOUBLE the old engine. The horror!
Who was it that called the TPI motors "the best truck engine GM ever produced?"
I LIKE torque!
Nice looking project. Can't wait to see it finished...
Hartz
[This message has been edited by Hartz (edited 10-07-2004).]
Good luck with the TPI unit - it's VERY restrictive no matter what you do (barring replacing it with something else!) .. I speak from experience when I say that it doesn't make a lot of power, regardless what the 3rd Gen folks say. If I can offer some TPI help just email me directly!
Are we talking Horse Power or Torque? The TPI makes more Torque than HP and that translates to Quick, and should pull well to 4500rpms and with the proper gearing and tranny it should be fun in a Fiero.
I would spend the extra monies and get an Accel computer to run the thing or something aftermarket, i'm not a big believer in letting someone that can burn a chip tune my motors.
depends on how much you want to spend or save on your install. That motor has been in my S-10 since 89, the drivetrain is now bullet proof to atleast 500hp everything is rated to more than that but the TKO Tremic tranny is the weakest link.. I plan on replacing the motor sometime but now the Fiero is the Money Pit for now. Using stock computers won't catch this one, even if it is a 350 motor and mine is just a lil 5.0
[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 10-07-2004).]
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06:54 PM
PFF
System Bot
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Oh well... Here they come, the naysayers of the TPI. Show me what you have in YOUR Fiero that is better. I would like to know so maybe I can change plans. I haven't talked about the engine yet but one thing for sure is I don't want a 500HP/TQ tranny monster, and that if I only get 260Hp and 320TQ that still will kill a lot of cars out there. Plus the good thing about an SBC is that for future upgrades the options are numerous
...I don't want a 500HP/TQ tranny monster, and that if I only get 260Hp and 320TQ that still will kill a lot of cars out there.
My thoughts exactly when I chose my engine. That's why I also chose the TPI. Plus, if we want to upgrade later, the option is there. I'm bias but I like your choice of engine.
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10:10 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Ok. Up to now all seems easy. Well the truth is that I forgot all the hassle to take that 3.4 out. Took me day and a half to have that engine on the floor and a lot of glass of waters in the 90°F south FL September weather. Taking that A/C compressor out was as painful as it was 4 years ago when I did the 3.4. That top rear bolt to me is the worst bolt to take out in a Fiero. At the end I just wanted to sell everything and buy a Hunday. Yeah right
Well lets talk about the engine. The goal for this engine was to have decent power but not to be a drag racer. Driveability is important as this is my daily driver. I did a lot of research and orignally I wanted to go with a Vortec head 350 and carb setup. That would have been the cheapest and easiest. But at the end a good friend of mine convinced me to go fuel injected with the TPI setup. He had done it before so that would be (and has been) of great help. The kit to use was the Archie econo kit as I would source the rest in my dozen trips to autoparts (more than 20 as of now!) where they now me by now. So I went to a known local machine shop and ordered a post 87 two bolt main 350 with roller cam. I got a long block just like the ones in 88+ TPIs with 193 casting heads, near 10:1 compression, hypereutectic flat top pistons and a Crane HR-276-2S-12 cam (PN 109821). Cam specs are as follow;
So this is a mild setup that should give me something above 250HP and 300TQ with the TPI setup. At the end I will dyno this thing and share real numbers rather than the expeculative BS that I hate. Up to now I haven't done much to the intake other than porting the upper plenum TB intake (common trick) and adding a TB foil. Also I will be using Sanderson CC90 headers with 2.5" pipes going into twin cats and mufflers to try to keep it green if you know what I mean. So here are the pics of this thing as it arrived and I mocked the intake up to get some excitment
I knew I needed a truck, yeah Roy?...
The truck 350
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-07-2004).]
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10:16 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
And here is more or less how it would look if I would go ahead and install it just like it came. Je je! Which I'm NOT!
Just a reminder if your using the Archie kit that your water pump will have to be installed upside down to get the pump inlet possitioned properly. Nice notchie, I loves me some notchies!
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11:18 PM
alienfiero Member
Posts: 638 From: auburn, wa., usa Registered: Aug 2004
You didn't mention which type rockers are on that engine, the 1.6:1 stainless rollers would help the breathing out a bit, easier job with the engine out. With those and intake ported a little, you should be able to pull up 5,200 before you feel it start to nose over. The TPI intake certainly lets you know where the wall is in a hurry (rapid drop off), opening the breathing up with bigger bore parts raises the achieveable rpm (increases the power band) with no noticable loss in torque.
You didn't mention which type rockers are on that engine, the 1.6:1 stainless rollers would help the breathing out a bit, easier job with the engine out. With those and intake ported a little, you should be able to pull up 5,200 before you feel it start to nose over. The TPI intake certainly lets you know where the wall is in a hurry (rapid drop off), opening the breathing up with bigger bore parts raises the achieveable rpm (increases the power band) with no noticable loss in torque.
I'm running comp cams stamped 1.6's with roller tips cause i didn't have room for taller valve covers in the S-10 but I could HEAR the different the first time it was fired up after installing them.
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07:13 AM
PFF
System Bot
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
alienfiero; That intake was made by John Striker and was provided to me to do some dyno testing.
Calikid; Right now I'm using stock rockers. Maybe later I'll change them. I know there is a lot of porting or better yet high flow runners and base manifold from many supplier. But I think the prices are too high. Still the good thing of the SBC is that I can always easily change later. Some Vortec heads with SPDC lower manifold for example may be a nice upgrade. Or a Super RAM and some nice aluminum heads. Or a ...etc...You get the idea
FIEROPHREK; Pump was like that because the stock damper wouldn't allow it the other way around.
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08:08 AM
mrfixit58 Member
Posts: 3330 From: Seffner, Fl, USA Registered: Jul 99
Get rid of that starter before its in. Its a pile of crap. Im on my 4th. Im about to get a tilton.
------------------ 1986 GT, LT1/4T60E http://hometown.aol.com/ptfiero/index.html On the forum https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/045554.html more in depth look http://dtcc.cz28.com/LT1build/index.htm
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06:37 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by Alex4mula: Some Vortec heads with SPDC lower manifold for example may be a nice upgrade.
I would highly recommend AGAINST the SPDC Vortec TPI base and Vortec heads. The Vortech heads just don't perform well with TPI and while it is an improvement over the stock heads and intake on an OEM TPI, it's not worth the $$$, IMO.
Fast Burn 385 with LT4 HOT Cam: Horsepower : 430 hp @ 6000 rpm Torque : 430 ft/lbs @ 4400 rpm Compression Ratio : 9.6 to 1 Duration @ .050" I/E : 218/228 Lift I/E : .525"/.525"
Notice that these 2 engines run the same LT4 HOT Cam, yet the TPI version peaks at only 4200 rpm even with Vortec heads. The FB385 with the same cam doesn't peak until 6000 rpm. Now, the Fast Burn Aluminum heads do have slightly larger valves than the Iron Vortec heads, but you can see the difference the TPI makes. It looks like up to about 4200 rpm the torque curves are similar, but that's where the TPI peaks and the carb is still pulling strong for another 1800+ rpm. Also, since both the HP and torque peak at 4200 on the TPI, it definitley looks like that TPI wall is being hit at or possibly below 5000 RPM.
I'd recommend something like a Holley Stealth Ram, TPiS MiniRam, or a modified LT1 intake (LT4 intake for Vortec / FB heads). Those will all help the engine breath much better if you decide to up the performance some.
Otherwise, I'd go with the SuperRam. That's a proven TPI intake that has some great performance numbers.
I know you're looking for a nice torquey motor for you daily driver, and for now the stock TPI fits the bill great, but I wanted to show you some data for when you want to start upping the ante some so you get the most bang for your buck.
------------------
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07:42 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
I'd recommend something like a Holley Stealth Ram, TPiS MiniRam, or a modified LT1 intake (LT4 intake for Vortec / FB heads). Those will all help the engine breath much better if you decide to up the performance some.
HSR wont fit without major modification to the decklid and engine vents. You can reverse the intake(I'm doing this) but its going to be costly to figure out the ignition.
Personally, put what you have in, if its not enough, put more in later. Keep us updated regularly, These threads are fun.
Do you intend to cut the trunk with your exhaust?
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08:26 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Thanks all for the tips This setup will be more than fine for now. Later on I have all those options you just mentioned. I thought once about using the manifold inversed but was not worth the cost just for looks. My trunk will stay stock. No cutting. I'm in the process of resizing the 100s of pics I have to continue this. More will come. Thanks again
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09:49 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Ok. I had some fun installing the battery relocator. I bought this unit from Norms Fiberglass. I think it is a great product. Only wish is that battery wire included was bigger gage (it is same as original). I may use it for my amp power and get a bigger one for the battery. This is the main product;
This is my original front trunk before start:
This is the hole I had to do
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04:09 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
The install was much easier than i thought as this is an 88. Also I have a nice air cutting tool that made the job a piece of cake. Here is the finished compartment;
And with the battery in place below. I'm not sure if I may put back the spare. Will decide that later
:
Here is the problem extracted and out of the way;
