quote Originally posted by Will: That can be fixed easily enough... No reason at all an F-body should handle better than a Fiero

Every reason... Because I said HI-SPEED stability and handling. The Fiero's wheelbase is far too short to have good hi-speed stability. My 87 GTA with it's factory installed WS6 suspension will out-handle ANY Fiero above 60mph, and I would be willing to put money on that. Now below 60mph, the Fiero's weight advantage can help in the twisties but anything faster and that ungodly rear weight bias the Fiero has becomes a huge burden. Aside from that, my 87 Fiero can whup the crap out of my GTA.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Instead of a 4th gen Firebird, put your engine and 4L60E (or 65E... or even 80E or 85E) into a Buick Regal of the GN vintage. Then destroy all the factory block GN records with your factory block 3800 S2.

Thats actually a really good idea. I like those regals too. Would have to paint it orange though, everyone is scared of black ones. regalX haha.

Did the standard regals have 3800s in them? I wonder how different the mounts are. Might have to use firebird/camaro mounts. Im really going to look into this. Prolly get one alot cheaper than a 4th gen too.

How about a Chevy Vega or a Buick Skyhawk?I know the Buick came with a 3.8 and the Vega was available with a V8.They are both rear wheel drive.I've thought about this myself if my trans doesn't hold up.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Every reason... Because I said HI-SPEED stability and handling. The Fiero's wheelbase is far too short to have good hi-speed stability.

Not buying it. People have run MR2's at Bonneville. Get a chin spoiler and a hood vent.

quote My 87 GTA with it's factory installed WS6 suspension will out-handle ANY Fiero above 60mph, and I would be willing to put money on that. Now below 60mph, the Fiero's weight advantage can help in the twisties but anything faster and that ungodly rear weight bias the Fiero has becomes a huge burden. Aside from that, my 87 Fiero can whup the crap out of my GTA.

Fiero's rear weight bias isn't a problem. It just means you have to stagger tire sizes. Run significantly wider rear tires and front and you'll wonder why you ever though the Fiero has a rear weight issue.

quote Originally posted by hugh: How about a Chevy Vega or a Buick Skyhawk?I know the Buick came with a 3.8 and the Vega was available with a V8.They are both rear wheel drive.I've thought about this myself if my trans doesn't hold up.

The Vega never came from the factory with a V8. The Monza had a V8 option but never the Vega. They came with 4 cyl and V6's only. It was however designed from the start to accommodate a V8 from day 1 but GM never installed it at factory.

------------------
Central Florida Fieros
Home of Fantasy of Flight Cruise
And
Spring Fling Poker Run
www.centralfloridafieros.org

quote Originally posted by fieroX: Thats actually a really good idea. I like those regals too. Would have to paint it orange though, everyone is scared of black ones. regalX haha. Did the standard regals have 3800s in them? I wonder how different the mounts are. Might have to use firebird/camaro mounts. Im really going to look into this. Prolly get one alot cheaper than a 4th gen too.

Yeah, they had 3800s - well, the 3.8L, which was different, as you know. Not sure how the mounts would work between the 3.8 and the 3800.

Don't get a Regal. It's been done, and even orange, everyone will expect it to be a GN. Get Grand Prix. Other than the 2+2, they never made a performance version to speak of. Same suspension and drivetrain, and a much higher sleeper quotient.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yeah, they had 3800s - well, the 3.8L, which was different, as you know. Not sure how the mounts would work between the 3.8 and the 3800. Don't get a Regal. It's been done, and even orange, everyone will expect it to be a GN. Get Grand Prix. Other than the 2+2, they never made a performance version to speak of. Same suspension and drivetrain, and a much higher sleeper quotient.

the point was he wanted RWD - or course with a lot of work that too could be done

i'd rather see that engine in an S10 than a grand prix

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: the point was he wanted RWD - or course with a lot of work that too could be done i'd rather see that engine in an S10 than a grand prix

I thought the 80's Gran Prix's were RWD too?

Old school Grands Prix were RWD...

Yup. Grand Prix, Regal, Monte Carlo and Cutlass are all on the same "G-Body" platform and were RWD until phased out in 1987. They are mechanically identical.

You're all going in the wrong direction....

What you want... is to pick up a dumpy old '85 Hyundai Pony 4dr hatchback! Rear wheel drive, fairly long engine bay, somewhat of a frame, and it weighs in at about 1500lbs!

Who'd EVER expect a 700hp Pony to whoop there ass? Can you imagine having to admit that to the 'boys' back at the hangout place????

I think an AMC pacer is in order here
Though my firend did put a 427ci turbo charged in one.
What an ugly ass car that was, but fast

I stand corrected.It was the Monza that had a V8.A lot of people put a V8 in the Vega's though.I was going to do it myself until it seemed every time I turned around there was a V8 Vega.So I had to build my Chevelle.

quote Originally posted by CentralFloridaFieros: They came with 4 cyl and V6's only. It was however designed from the start to accommodate a V8 from day 1 but GM never installed it at factory.

Hmmm... That reminds me of a certain car many of us like...

But still, if the motor is coming out to go into another car, I still like the Turbo TA. Could be kind of a sick replica of that car. And it could be much more streetable at those HP levels. Its too bad there isn't a simple solution to your perdicament. Youv'e built a great motor, but have built it beyond the practical application. I'm still holding out for that 10 second pass in a Fiero though... Perhaps a well built 125C? They are remarkably simple, and still pretty brute as far as hardware. But then again Im just standing in the corner watching this.

quote Originally posted by Will: Fiero's rear weight bias isn't a problem. It just means you have to stagger tire sizes. Run significantly wider rear tires and front and you'll wonder why you ever though the Fiero has a rear weight issue.

like these?

I could not believe how glued to the road this car feels with wide rears. I dont have rear weight bias concerns with this Fiero

sorry, couldn't help myself

"Instead of a 4th gen Firebird, put your engine and 4L60E (or 65E... or even 80E or 85E) into a Buick Regal of the GN vintage. Then destroy all the factory block GN records with your factory block 3800 S2."

That’s much easier said than done, try taking a brick that weigh 3550 lbs go down the track 9.30’s @ 146mph+, that’s what the old school 3.8 factory production 109 block in a GN running.

------------------
"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
1986 GT (waiting for Buick GN setup trasplant)
1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8
1997 GTP
1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH)
1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet)
1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph)
Other cars; JaguarXJR, XJ6 & Mercedes AMG 500SEC

Fiero's respond well to rear sway bars and big tires. A rear tire 20mm wider than the front seems to be a great size match. (IE 225/50/XX on the front and 245/50/XX on the rear)

------------------
85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

quote Originally posted by WikedV6: "Instead of a 4th gen Firebird, put your engine and 4L60E (or 65E... or even 80E or 85E) into a Buick Regal of the GN vintage. Then destroy all the factory block GN records with your factory block 3800 S2." That’s much easier said than done, try taking a brick that weigh 3550 lbs go down the track 9.30’s @ 146mph+, that’s what the old school 3.8 factory production 109 block in a GN running.

GN's have had 25 years of development. S2's have only had 10 or so. Give it a bit of time.
That was a regular production block? Not a stage block? I've heard varying things about the durability of production blocks.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Every reason... Because I said HI-SPEED stability and handling. The Fiero's wheelbase is far too short to have good hi-speed stability. My 87 GTA with it's factory installed WS6 suspension will out-handle ANY Fiero above 60mph, and I would be willing to put money on that. Now below 60mph, the Fiero's weight advantage can help in the twisties but anything faster and that ungodly rear weight bias the Fiero has becomes a huge burden. Aside from that, my 87 Fiero can whup the crap out of my GTA.

I think we can both agree that the 4th gens will outhandle the thrid gen F-bodys. That said, I owned a 1994 Z28 6-speed for about a year, and its handling was good. The braking was excellent. My 88GT will outhandle that Z28 all the way, it isn't even close. The Fieros are a lot closer to 50/50 distribution than a Camaro ever will be. I spun that Camaro out more times than I can count becuz there is no weight on the back tires. It will just let that back end go around at any speed. Now if you are accelerating through the corner in it, its a recipy for disaster. That torquey motor, with all the weight on the front, the back end will spin out really fast. The Fiero on the other hand, you push it to its limits, then push harder, turning harder, it just keeps turning. I stretched the GT's legs pretty hard the first week or so I owned it, and was more than impressed. To get that car to over/understeer takes work, where as in the Camaro wanted to oversteer every time I moved the wheel. As far as handling goes, Fiero > Camaro.

------------------

I think ive decided to find a 1978-1981 Pontiac Le Mans. Theyre lightweight, the aftermarket for suspension parts and brakes etc is huge and I think it would be a killer sleeper setup.

On a sidenote, im taking it to the track tonight for one last attempt at something great. I'll either break the record, or break the tranny. I guess we'll see soon enough what happens.

quote Originally posted by Will: ... I've heard varying things about the durability of production blocks.

Production block durability problems were solved with the use of an "engine girdle". Which was nothing more than a milled piece that between the block and the oil pan to give extra strength to the center main caps. This was the most likely place for block failure with the extra force from the Turbo's.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: I think we can both agree that the 4th gens will outhandle the thrid gen F-bodys. That said, I owned a 1994 Z28 6-speed for about a year, and its handling was good. The braking was excellent. My 88GT will outhandle that Z28 all the way, it isn't even close. The Fieros are a lot closer to 50/50 distribution than a Camaro ever will be. I spun that Camaro out more times than I can count becuz there is no weight on the back tires. It will just let that back end go around at any speed. Now if you are accelerating through the corner in it, its a recipy for disaster. That torquey motor, with all the weight on the front, the back end will spin out really fast. The Fiero on the other hand, you push it to its limits, then push harder, turning harder, it just keeps turning. I stretched the GT's legs pretty hard the first week or so I owned it, and was more than impressed. To get that car to over/understeer takes work, where as in the Camaro wanted to oversteer every time I moved the wheel. As far as handling goes, Fiero > Camaro.

no offense meant here. i just dissagree.

i think you are driving that Z28 with too much pedal on the corners or too hard braking or something. it is a documented that a 1997 WS6 T/A pulls lateral .87-.90g's the 1988 GT was documented pulling .84-.86g's. Now this is with both cars stock from the factory. Your Fiero may have been modified, but if that is the case then that was not a fair comparison, because there are plenty of mods to the that Z28 or my Firebird that can bump up its cornering ability as well. i have read about both Fieros and 4th gen F-bodys that pull over 1g latterally. so to say that Fiero > than F-Body in handling is not accurate in my opinion. especially when you say "it isn't even close" the difference between the two is negligable at best.

i also am finding stats on WS6 LT1 weight distribution as 53 / 47. pretty close to the Fieros near 50 / 50

I am willing to bet lightening the load up front on a 4th gen f-body with a 3800 would bring that even closer to 50 / 50

my .02

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 06-18-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: The Fieros are a lot closer to 50/50 distribution than a Camaro ever will be.

F-body is 58% 42%.. Not great, but not terrible either.. Isn't the Fiero about that? 45% or so?

im guessing that you either never took it to the track, or you broke it? give us an update..?

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: i think you are driving that Z28 with too much pedal on the corners or too hard braking or something. it is a documented that a 1997 WS6 T/A pulls lateral .87-.90g's the 1988 GT was documented pulling .84-.86g's. Now this is with both cars stock from the factory. Your Fiero may have been modified, but if that is the case then that was not a fair comparison, because there are plenty of mods to the that Z28 or my Firebird that can bump up its cornering ability as well. i have read about both Fieros and 4th gen F-bodys that pull over 1g latterally. so to say that Fiero > than F-Body in handling is not accurate in my opinion. especially when you say "it isn't even close" the difference between the two is negligable at best. i also am finding stats on WS6 LT1 weight distribution as 53 / 47. pretty close to the Fieros near 50 / 50 I am willing to bet lightening the load up front on a 4th gen f-body with a 3800 would bring that even closer to 50 / 50

Fieros are about 45/55, not that it has much of a bearing on anything.

There's a WHOLE LOT more to handling than lateral G. Any decent driver will be faster in a confidence inspiring car with slightly less lateral G than a squirrelly car with more lateral G.
Also, the Fiero is lightyears beyond the F-body in off-corner acceleration. I can be full throttle on my Northstar a LOT sooner that my friend can with his TPI/T56 '90 Camaro. When I drove that car, I was amazed at how much traction it DIDN'T have. Lot's of fun, but not very fast.

So what happened?? Did you destroy the records, or the tranny??

quote Originally posted by fieroX: Well I havent seen a timeslip nor video, neither has anyone on this forum except you so it doesnt count. I could tell you I saw a 7 second fiero 3800 V6 turbo but he isnt on the boards either so does it count also?

This board is not as big as it would seem. 11144 registered members - 500 baned members responsible for 5 ID's each in that total ( -2500), -5000 1 post wonders, another few thousand who got out of fieros, or never really got one going and just don't come here anymore, etc etc.

I'd say in reality there are less than 500 actual active members on this forum. A lot of the people are just over at automotiveforums.com because they have/had other cars and found that place first. Just because someone is not a member here does not mean they aren't real. I personally have serious doubts about a 3800 SC hitting the 10's, but I prefer to call people out when I have proof that they are BSing, not just because they don't have proof that they aren't. I can understand with the problems you have had getting to 10 second land that a comment like that is a real kick in the balls, but I'm sure it was meant to be encouraging.

Is that doubts of 10 seconds any 3800 SC or just Fiero, Because there are a couple of 3800 SC in FWD W-bodies running 10s. 10.8 with M90(factory size blower, and daily driven), 10.9 with centrifugal(Novi 2000), and 10.9 with Blowzilla in a Bonneville. Followed by several 11.0 and low 11 second cars. Some weighing in at up to 3800 lbs race weight(JohnT with MP112, 11.0 at 124.4MPH). As far as Fieros though, no one has reached that point that I know of.

FieroX, what happened at the track????

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 06-20-2005).]

quote Originally posted by HellYes: This board is not as big as it would seem. 11144 registered members - 500 baned members responsible for 5 ID's each in that total ( -2500), -5000 1 post wonders, another few thousand who got out of fieros, or never really got one going and just don't come here anymore, etc etc. I'd say in reality there are less than 500 actual active members on this forum. A lot of the people are just over at automotiveforums.com because they have/had other cars and found that place first. Just because someone is not a member here does not mean they aren't real. I personally have serious doubts about a 3800 SC hitting the 10's, but I prefer to call people out when I have proof that they are BSing, not just because they don't have proof that they aren't. I can understand with the problems you have had getting to 10 second land that a comment like that is a real kick in the balls, but I'm sure it was meant to be encouraging.

Cliff has said more than once that less than a dozen members have been banned from PFF, not including the same old ones sneaking back on and getting banned again.

quote Originally posted by HellYes: I personally have serious doubts about a 3800 SC hitting the 10's, but I prefer to call people out when I have proof that they are BSing, not just because they don't have proof that they aren't. I can understand with the problems you have had getting to 10 second land that a comment like that is a real kick in the balls, but I'm sure it was meant to be encouraging.

FYI, X has videos of some of his passes here: http://www.fierox.com/videos.htm

After that is when he started the turbo project to get into the 10's (if I remember corretly). Since then he's had mechanical failure after mechanical failure and the 10 second barrier has so far eluded him. He's definitely pushed the envelope on V6 Fieros, either turbocharged or supercharged.

Judging from his comments, he's gotten tired of having a Fiero "race car" and wants to go back with a more mild (for him) 12 second 3800 SC setup that can reliably be driven. I know he may not consider his car a race car, but anytime you have something that's been modded so much that you are afraid to drive it 20 miles, it's no longer a functional street car.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Cliff has said more than once that less than a dozen members have been banned from PFF, not including the same old ones sneaking back on and getting banned again.

I would say far less than 500 members.. 100 active members probably.. Every Fiero guy I've ran into over the years has never heard of PFF.. In fact, I've never randomly bumped into a PFF guy.. Don't assume that because someone hasn't done it on this forum it hasn't been done.

could be your area. i have met several dozen Fiero owners over the years. i think only 1 or 2 had never heard of pff

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20050410-1-042981.html
That was 6 months ago, we've gained over 1000 members since then. I know a lot of members never bothered to post in that thread either. There are also a lot of members who surf the forum often but don't post much.

Back on topic, I am assuming that the 10 sec. run didn't happen because I'm sure he would have posted something here pretty quickly. I really hope it made at least one good run.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I said HI-SPEED stability and handling. The Fiero's wheelbase is far too short to have good hi-speed stability.

The 1980's Ferrari 308 GTS has a shorter wheelbase than a Fiero. The 308 handles great at high speed. There is nothing wrong with the Fiero wheelbase length.

quote My 87 GTA with it's factory installed WS6 suspension will out-handle ANY Fiero above 60mph, and I would be willing to put money on that.

You will have many 88 Fiero owners who disagree.

No offense to anyone who owns a 84-87 Fiero, I owned a 87 GT and loved the car, but the complete redesign of the Fiero suspension in 1988 transformed the "commuter-car suspension" into a "sportscar suspension" leaving all the bad habits and strange handleing behavior behind. (especially high speed stability)

Being that it IS a totally different car, I can't believe they didn't change the name to Fiero-II or Fiero GT2 in 1988.

[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 06-20-2005).]

Where is X.....???

quote Originally posted by Will: I would put a 205 front with 245 rear.

I have that combo except I'm running 255 rear and it works very well

I totally forgot about this thread.

I took it to the track saturday night. Got 4 passes in, 2 of them sucked. 2 were alright. Went 11.87 @ 119, couldnt get the turbo to spool off the line, then when it did at 20 mph i spun the tires to a 1.91 60', the 1-2 shift was flawless, but the 2-3 shift slipped and hit the rev limiter. I had to let out and it had to respool the turbo. Lots of lost time there. Next pass went 11.90 @ 123.5 pretty much an identical run, except went 1.95 60' and i remembered to hit the lockup switch in 3rd gear to get the mph back. I think if the 2-3 shift would happen like the 1-2 shift, the car would of gone pretty low 11's. Besides my junk ass brakes not holding crap off the line. i need a vacuum pump for the brake booster.