quote Originally posted by California Kid: I not that dissatisfied with the headers, and they dump into a 3 inch collector pipe, flow path design isn't all that bad. The Hilborn setup is the "nuts", I can afford to give up a little torque, and increase the rpm range before fall off over the current setup. But really the main goal with this setup is "WOW" factor, coupled up with the incredible sound that the Hilborn makes when you step on it !!!

It would really be nutts to mount it longitudual with an aluminum bugcather on top of the horns just clearing the roof ..

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 10-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Each to his own, there are some very fine DOHC Engines out there, it's just a matter of you and your car's personality that will build your dream. On a side note; I'd venture to say that nearly everyone in this thread supporting the DOHC, haven't ridden in a Fiero like Tina's or Mine to even formulate a Fiero Comparison ! Now I'm waiting for Kameo Kid to jump in here (he knows I'm jerking his chain ).

OK my chain is jerked now...

I have rode in Cali's GT "very impressive" truely a "muscle car", and one of the reasons for my choice to get a 3.4 DOHC. I have a TPI 5.0 in a S-10 and didn't want another torqy vehicle, I wanted something that would get out and run without worrying about blowing axels or tranny's which these two know all about...and maybe I'm talking too soon since mine is still being babied till the motor get a few more miles on it. I may need the number for those axels in due time. Now these two are no doubt quicker than my DOHC in a quarter but out on the highway I don't think they would get away from me, time will tell.

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still plays with cars..

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: how much power have people gotten out of the pushrod 3.4? 200hp heavily modified? funny the 3.4dohc makes 210hp stock the limitation of the 60*v6's power potential is the stock crank - with a much stronger crank it could really be put to the test because the heads have flow benched to be able to handle a lot more hp than the crank.. compare that to the 3800sc which is built strong but power/displacement is rather low the NA version only makes as much power as the 3.4 people are coming in here attacking the 3.4 like we insulted you because you have fewer cams.. WTF , how old are you? some have even pointed out that they like the 3.4 for its finess - just like the fiero.. I got into fieros because they have finess - they aren't brute force monsters, if i wanted that I would have bought an old foxbody mustang and supercharged it a long time ago.

Personally I think the real limiter is marketing and insurance. A newer 3400 with aluminum heads (BIIIIIG difference at the top end with those I've noticed) can apparently make fair horsepower with modifications not including the crank. Since picking up my '05 Grand Am I've done a little research into what can be done with the motor and it's surprisingly impressive.
GM had a supercharged prototype of the 3.4 that was making 285hp quite reliably in 2000, though with the introduction of the 210hp 3.4 (in the torrent I think, for '06) I honestly believe that this engine is held back solely by GM's engineers keeping HP (and insurance costs) down. With a little work 285hp should be attainable NA with the proper intake/camshaft. GM has never truly tapped any of the real potential of their V6's. and it's only been recently they've refocussed on the 60 degree motor with newer models and variable valve timing (yup, on a pushrod)

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Displacement wise, sbc's are pretty weak. If they could get heads, intake and exhaust to make the power/displacement that some newer dohc engines are making, 570hp wouldn't be hard to hit while being fully streetable. 100hp/L is pretty easily achieved on a dohc engine, 120hp/L on some engines such as an S2000, stock. That would put a chevy 350 at 600hp.

So youre saying SBC's putting out 600HP are hard to make streetable?

No flame, just a question.

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I race from a roll cause I need all the help I can get!!

Yes. They need to run huge cam profiles, super high compression, high octane gas etc. 600hp from a sbc is possible but its not a motor you want to take on a sunday drive.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Yes. They need to run huge cam profiles, super high compression, high octane gas etc. 600hp from a sbc is possible but its not a motor you want to take on a sunday drive.

Maybe I'm too old to comprehend this comparison.............Please show me a DOHC putting out 600 HP that runs on Regular Gas, and is in the price range of most of the engine swappers on this Forum. And I would certainly want to know what transmission and axles are going into that conversion with any engine making that HP.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 10-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMojo: [edit] There were no winners though there were some close guesses. Its a V16 2-valve DOHC running a centrifical supercharger at 4x engine speed. It's all of 1.5l and making around 450hp at 11,000 rpm. It was first conceived in 1946 and the project was completed in 1949. The car was the BRM Type 15 and suffered numerous failures as well as several wins, once they got it sorted out.

psht..... I never would've guessed that! I've never even HEARD a V16 before.

I think I was closest though:
"Well it's obviously not something you'd find in your fiero........ It seems to have aspects of both a 4 cylinder and an 8 cylinder......... "

yeah, it's an 8 cylinder with a couple 4 cylinders bolted on

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 10-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Maybe I'm too old to comprehend this comparison.............Please show me a DOHC putting out 600 HP that runs on Regular Gas, and is in the price range of most of the engine swappers on this Forum. And I would certainly want to know what transmission and axles are going into that conversion with any engine making that HP.

You won't find one in swappers price ranges for a few reasons.

#1 high hp engines are usually reserved for high end cars
#2 The big 3 are not interested in mass producing a 600hp V-8
#3 Most people can't handle a 600hp car, and good luck finding a trani to take it reliably.

I stated that a dohc engine can make 120hp/l on pump gas naturally aspirated. I believe a sbc could also hit that mark with a set of well flowing dohc heads, intake and exhaust with a good tune. I didn't say there was such an engine, or that its afordable. The only way to make something afordable is to mass produce it. I don't see 600hp engines being offered in anything less than 6 figures.

To hit 600hp on pump gas, the engine would have to be setup to rev high, like 9k high. It would probibly need a shorter stroke and larger bore, sacraficing down low torque for high end hp. Its not like sacraficing torque on a sbc is a bad thing.

Having had a few swaps on either side of the argument... I will say I like DOHC's better, but I wouldn't turn down a nice PR motor, Especially since I feel that the latest PR offerings from GM are really quite competitive with todays DOHC engines, and still have that all American feel. However, compare a Quad 4 (2.3L 4 cyl) to a 2.8... and the numbers tell a story.

So even with half a liter less, the Q4 made exactly as much torque as the 2.8. The Quad 4 made 90% of its peek torque from 2600 to 6800 RPM's (rev limiter) and HP from 5600-6800 (rev limiter) The 2.8's torque did it from practically idle to 4600 and 90% of peak HP from 3600-5300, so theres your big difference. Got to keep the Q4 above 4300 for the fun factor.

My 2.8 got 25 MPG while the Quad 4 got 33 MPG. But enough with the numbers, because that is FAR from what this thread was geared towards.

IIRC, the question was... "Why do people say a DOHC fits the Fiero's personality better than a pushrod engine?"

First you need to determine just what the personality of a Fiero is. And to do that, you have to ask yourself this... "Is your Fiero more of a Corvette? Or a Ferrari?" A muscle car? Or an exotic?

I vote exotic, mostly due to the transverse mid mounted engine. So a DOHC engine might suite its personality better.

But others would say its a muscle car. All american, born with the room for a V8, and no excuses not to have one, its a Corvettes bastard cousin, and a damn fine sleeper.

Each argument, Totally within reason.

Personally, I will have a 3.4 DOHC Fiero, with a blower atop it, sticking several inches out of the decklid, in my rear view mirror with an over the roof bug catcher intake. Exotic engine meets muscle head mentality. In my opinion, that is an engine that suites a Fiero's personality. Of course thats just IN MY OPINION.

Basically what I feel it all boils down to is:

Once you get your head around what you think a Fieros personality is, THEN choose what engine you feel suites it.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 10-22-2005).]

Well. If you can find a ZL-1 Corvette or Camaro, it may very well be less than 6 figures, but doubtful, since people who have them, probably don't really want to sell them. But, back in 1969, they wouldn't have been for sale brand new for 6 figures.

And really, most things in the 6 figure range, do not have 600hp. The Lambo Murcielago is really the only thing close, at 580hp. The Enzo makes 600 and some odd HP, but it's 7 figures. It's not really of being able to produce a 600hp engine on pump gas, for less than 100K. It's just that nobody does it. Although, the Viper is pretty damn close. 510 hp for $85k. Not too shabby. It's not that it can't be done, or that you need to rev to 9K to hit it. It's just that nobody does it, because what's the point really. The people who think that HP or expensive cars make the man, are going to be spending the $200K for a Ferrari, because they think it will compensate for something.

This thread has been one of the lamest flamewars I have seen on here. Right up close to that one kid who was all pissed off because he bought a beater and expected it to be a Ferrari, so he started flaming about how the MR-2 was the Godzilla-sent miracle.

Personally, I'm going to go with a Northstar, because it makes good power, can easily make a lot more power, and the spark plugs are on the top, so it isn't a pain in the ass to change them, like it is with the PR motors. And, I don't really want to put a Hemi in a Fiero. There is no one single thing that makes a DOHC better than a PR. Nor is there one single thing that makes a PR better than a DOHC. Cars are very complicated machines, and everything in them has to work together to make the HP, or the TQ, or the 1/4 times.

-- dobey

And ffs, please grow up. Ain't nobody on here pwning anyone else, 'cept for me and mine. B-)

quote Originally posted by crzyone: I stated that a dohc engine can make 120hp/l on pump gas naturally aspirated. I believe a sbc could also hit that mark with a set of well flowing dohc heads, intake and exhaust with a good tune. I didn't say there was such an engine, or that its afordable. The only way to make something afordable is to mass produce it. I don't see 600hp engines being offered in anything less than 6 figures.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Yes. They need to run huge cam profiles, super high compression, high octane gas etc. 600hp from a sbc is possible but its not a motor you want to take on a sunday drive.

No flames, but that's what I said about NA 3.4 DOHC's @285 hp as well before Koburn jumped on me. You can put money into a motor to get the horsepower you want, but when you are done, is that the motor you really want to drive every day?

As far as personality goes...what I really love about the car is that it is what YOU make it to be.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 10-22-2005).]

A NA 3.4dohc at 285hp is still docile. Depends on what you consider streetable, if you call the new Civic Si with a 2L 197hp 4 banger docile, then the 285hp 3.4dohc will be as well. Sure they have a high powerband and not a lot of low end torque, but so what? They make their hp higher in the rpm band and I can guarantee they will be a blast to drive.

On the other end of the spectrum are motors such as the 4.9 which can't breathe at all and have very low redlines. Great for a cruising engine, or a spirited low gear engine. 2 very different personalities.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Looking forward to seeing your car again next season, when you have it all dialed in, and detailed out. It's going to make another big hit here on the Forum.

Next season?? Where the GT is now.... after two rides on a open trailer and a year in California I believe I'm going to end up painting the whole car again before it's back to where it was and better.. I think 2006 is going to be more of a "test & tune" and getting it all ready for 2007... time will tell

Well after reading thru this thread I gotta say it's actually quite funny.
First some facts:
Engine type (DOHC vs. PR) is NOT going to affect handling. If you think it's the weight difference between a 3.4L DOHC and an SBC that will affect handling you would be wrong. The 3.4 TDC weighs in at around 490 lbs (Rockcrawl weighed one) and my ZZ4 weighs around 450 lbs (438 is the shipping weight) So there isn't much weight difference between the engines to drastically change the handling. If 40 LBS affected handling significantly then the handling between a stock V-6 with stick would do circles around a stock V-6 with an auto trans as the weight difference is 48 lbs. Weight does affect handling, but in the case of Fiero engine swaps, The difference is minor and easily adjusted for (shocks, struts, bushings, tires, etc.)

If you are talking power curves of the engine vs handling, This also doesn't matter as the trans gearing is what does it. The gearing of the trans is what allows you to keep the engine inside it powerband. My SBC and the stock 4-spd Fiero trans work very well together on the road courses I run on. Although the power band of an SBC is lower in the RPM range than a DOHC engine, the car can be geared to properly use this.

Being an SBC powered Fiero owner I can tell you that it is NOT the "ultimate" swap. This is because everyone has their own preference's on how they want their car to act. My own personal preference tends to lean towards the "streetrod" style. So I went with a carb'd SBC. I also prefer a very good handling car as well. In my particular case, I feel I have done what I wanted and have a car that I can enjoy driving. Sure there are other cars out there that are faster and handle better, But I did my car the way I wanted it.

The folks that tend to do 3.4L TDC swaps want a high revving "sports car" feel and from what I have read, the engine sounds like it will do that job very well. I personally have never rode in or driven a 3.4L TDC. I have been in a number of Fiero's with different engines and each one has it's pro's and con's. That doesn't mean that something I feel is bad about a certain swap/engine is also bad for everyone else. It just means that it is something I don't prefer. The only reason I never considered a 3.4L TDC was the "rumors" of lower reliability and the maintenance of the timing belts. But again, This is my personal opinion.

The rest of the discussion relating to power and such really doesn't matter. Pushrod engines generally have lower RPM power curves and DOHC engines generally have higher power curves due to their ability to rev higher. But then again each engine is designed to act a specific way and each driver tends to have their own preference on what they want to use the car for and how they want the car to behave. We could gather a bunch of Fiero's, each with a different engine swapped into them and get 20 people to test drive them. After they are all done, Each car will have a pro and con list which will vary by each driver and there will be a driver who prefer's a certain swap only because they prefer the way a specific swap feels to them.

Bottom line is which engine you swap in is purely a choice for the owner of the car. My advise is if you want to do a swap, Drive as many different swapped Fiero's as you can. Then decide what is right for you. To swap an engine just because someone says it's the "best swap" or this is the "best engine for a Fiero" is wrong. You need to decide what is best for you. So decide if you prefer a streetrod or a high revving sports car or the whine of a forced induction engine and pick the engine best suited to your choice. Then swap it in and enjoy.

quote Originally posted by dobey: And really, most things in the 6 figure range, do not have 600hp. The Lambo Murcielago is really the only thing close, at 580hp. The Enzo makes 600 and some odd HP, but it's 7 figures. It's not really of being able to produce a 600hp engine on pump gas, for less than 100K. It's just that nobody does it. Although, the Viper is pretty damn close. 510 hp for $85k. Not too shabby. It's not that it can't be done, or that you need to rev to 9K to hit it. It's just that nobody does it, because what's the point really. The people who think that HP or expensive cars make the man, are going to be spending the $200K for a Ferrari, because they think it will compensate for something.

Incorrect.

3 new AMG Mercedes have 604hp and 740 lb ft torque straight from the factory floor on pump gas, and having driven all 3 of them, I can tell you they are as streetable as it gets. Smooth, quiet at idle, and reliable. Yet you hit the gas, and it's just a rush of thrust. AMAZING power delivery, right up to 6000rpm where it hits the next gear. The powertrain in these cars is truly amazing, but it does come at a price, ranging from about $150-$300 thousand, but that is under your 6 figure limit.

quote There is no one single thing that makes a DOHC better than a PR. Nor is there one single thing that makes a PR better than a DOHC.

You're incorrect here too, that is what this entire thread is about. The DOHC is better than a 2/3 valve pushrod because its heads allow for much better and much more airflow, and they allow for more efficient combustion. This simply cannot be argued.

But the pushrod motors have less rotating mass, but more reciprocating mass, and are generally lighter.

Lookng strait as this, its hard to even argue the pushrod design is better. It really isn't. The potential is far greater on the DOHC since true engine potential comes down to two things, air flow and displacement. And excluding Arao's AMAZING heads, you will never get a pushrod head to flow what a 4 valve DOHC one does or can do. And a DOHC can be made to have more low end, or more high end as the pushrod. So long as the DOHC is set up and tuned correctly, a 2 valve motor can't touch it. Unfortunately, the DOHC hasn't yet been tapped to the limits as the pushrod designs have.

And in the case of the 3.4l DOHC, it has its downsides, but also its upsides from the 3.4 OHV. More power at any RPM, just as reliable, just as cheap, and more potential. Downsides, it is heavier, harder to find, needs a new timing belt every 60k, and is a bit harder to swap than a 3.4 OHV.

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"all pushrod motor are better than the dohc because it has less rotational mass"
-rick17, MyMonte member, owner of a 3100 Monte Carlo LS

Aaron, the 600hp was for a NA car, the amg is turbo?

Everyone seems to talk a lot of $hit, How many of the DOHC swap guys here have 600hp? Unforntunatly, the Pushrod crowd has got the DOHC guys beat in the power actualy put out by FIEROs!
Im not saying DOHC is a bad design, but the GM 3.4 version isn't a Mercedes or Ferrari motor, so i wouldn't compare it to an SBC and call it better. I believe GM made the SBC much better then they made the 3.4 TDC. But the truth is a DOHC might help the Fiero emulate a Ferrari or Lamborghini better, but it's still a Pontiac, so the Gm V8's, being one of the best small block designs in the world, is powerfull and ineficiant, the perfect American car. People put what they want in thier cars. No one can change that.
I own a Quad4 and despise it its loud rough and breaks way to quick
I own a 4.3l v6 i despise it its loud rough and fails to often.
Never drove in 3800sc hmmm

Personally I'd like both a SBC and a TDC, but i can't. So anyone want to give me a ride in thier car to show me which is best?

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 10-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by FieroWannaBe: Everyone seems to talk a lot of $hit, How many of the DOHC swap guys here have 600hp?

Nobody said anything about a 600hp fiero. Read closely... I said a sbc with heads, intake and exhaust that flow as well as a well tuned dohc could make 600hp on pump gas and be streetable. This is an observation on hp/l, not dissing any engine.

Please read before ranting.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Incorrect.

Yes. You are very much so.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: 3 new AMG Mercedes have 604hp and 740 lb ft torque straight from the factory floor on pump gas, and having driven all 3 of them, I can tell you they are as streetable as it gets. Smooth, quiet at idle, and reliable. Yet you hit the gas, and it's just a rush of thrust. AMAZING power delivery, right up to 6000rpm where it hits the next gear. The powertrain in these cars is truly amazing, but it does come at a price, ranging from about $150-$300 thousand, but that is under your 6 figure limit.

I imposed no such limit. And can you count? $150-300k is in fact, 6 figures, and not under it. And a turbo hopped up AMG Benz is is all fine and good, if you want to spend the money on it I guess. But we're talking about MOTOR only here.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: You're incorrect here too, that is what this entire thread is about. The DOHC is better than a 2/3 valve pushrod because its heads allow for much better and much more airflow, and they allow for more efficient combustion. This simply cannot be argued.

No. The thread is simply a question of why people think a DOHC belongs in a Fiero. It had nothing to do with what was better in the end. It's just a tool. You put the tools to the job. Saying it can't be argued is pretty silly too. If it can't be argued, why are you trying to argue it? More valves can be substituted by larger valves. I've built 1200 HP engines on all motor, albeit not pump gas. And Top Fuel dragsters put out 6000 HP on nitro with a blower, in a 500 CID pushrod block.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Lookng strait as this, its hard to even argue the pushrod design is better. It really isn't. The potential is far greater on the DOHC since true engine potential comes down to two things, air flow and displacement. And excluding Arao's AMAZING heads, you will never get a pushrod head to flow what a 4 valve DOHC one does or can do. And a DOHC can be made to have more low end, or more high end as the pushrod. So long as the DOHC is set up and tuned correctly, a 2 valve motor can't touch it. Unfortunately, the DOHC hasn't yet been tapped to the limits as the pushrod designs have.

It's pretty easy to argue. I think that's been proven quite well by the content of this thread. However, I'm not arguing that PR is better than DOHC. Nor am I arguing the reverse. The simple fact is that the engine performance depends on a lot more than simply how many valves you have. You seem to be more defensive than argumentative though. Potential is not simply based on airflow and displacement. But whatever. I doubt you're going to learn anytime soon. There's a reason you have such a big red bar under your username. Your replies aren't helping any.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: And in the case of the 3.4l DOHC, it has its downsides, but also its upsides from the 3.4 OHV. More power at any RPM, just as reliable, just as cheap, and more potential. Downsides, it is heavier, harder to find, needs a new timing belt every 60k, and is a bit harder to swap than a 3.4 OHV.

I wouldn't run a 3.4 DOHC or OHV. As far as I can gleen from the info that I've seen, their both fairly crap compared to other options for similar prices. Besides, if you had actually read my comments, you would know that I'm swapping in a Northstar, which is in fact a DOHC. I also intend to own many other DOHC cars in my lifetime. Ferrari's 40 valve V8 is pretty nice. The LT-5 from GM is pretty cool too. Plan to own just as many pushrod cars. A Yenko Camaro would be pretty crap with a DOHC in it. Anyway. I have 10 million dollars to go raise. Petty arguments on forums with people who don't have a clue what they're on about, aren't really a good expendature of my time. Especially ones that can't take the time to even make sure they spelled things properly, and used appropriate grammar. As I kindly asked earlier as well, please grow up.

-- dobey

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: You're incorrect here too, that is what this entire thread is about.

No actually this thread is was started because the original post wanted to know why people say the DOHC engines fit the Fiero's personna.
The answer would be that the high revving DOHC would make the car sound and act more along the lines of an exotic sports car it is thought to emulate.
NOT what is the difference between pushrod and DOHC engines. Although that is what this thread turned into.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: No actually this thread is was started because the original post wanted to know why people say the DOHC engines fit the Fiero's personna. The answer would be that the high revving DOHC would make the car sound and act more along the lines of an exotic sports car it is thought to emulate. NOT what is the difference between pushrod and DOHC engines. Although that is what this thread turned into.

Actually... What shows up on my computer when I click on the topic is "Topic: Why do people say a DOHC fits the Fiero's personality better than a pushrod engine?" So comparing the two seems appropriate to me. Again, I'm interested in the comparisons and others opinion on the topic.

All this "potential" HP is a joke.

Now people are saying what a DOHC "COULD" do.

A LOT of things COULD be done, but until you do it, its ALL TALK.

Aaron please stop posting. You're only embarrassing yourself even more.

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I race from a roll cause I need all the help I can get!!

[This message has been edited by UDLOSE (edited 10-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by UDLOSE: Aaron please stop posting. You're only embarrassing yourself even more.

He does that everywhere he goes !

quote Originally posted by Oreif: No actually this thread is was started because the original post wanted to know why people say the DOHC engines fit the Fiero's personna. The answer would be that the high revving DOHC would make the car sound and act more along the lines of an exotic sports car it is thought to emulate.

the Fiero is sort of an econo exotic being a mid engine car like a Lambo or Ferarri at a small fraction of the price. Both the Ferarri and Lambo are high strung throubreds with high rev motors that the europeans love. Installing a High Rev motor like a 3.4 DOHC and in my case a Turbo too is making the Fiero more like it's euro cousins. Thus my reason for liking the 3.4 DOHC wrapped witha Fiero making it so much more fun to drive.

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still plays with cars..

Hehe. I've noticed that.

I just remembered another Fiero though, that's totally been ignored in this thread. How much HP does Boomtastic's pro-streeter put out?
I bet that setup could take 1200+ HP pretty easy.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: He does that everywhere he goes !

Here is Boombastic's dyno graph. 188hp and 295lb/ft.

http://www.etrackmasters.com/dyno/ericsc.gif

His name is Eric Shneck, check it out here.
http://www.etrackmasters.com/modules.php?name=Dyno_Charts

This is why a proper tune is critical to any performance engine. The TPI setup is also why his motor falls on its face. Just because its a sbc doesn't exactly mean its powerful. It has a ton of torque, and would feel fast as hell and spin the wheels, but doesn't make the hp you think it does. I'm sure is he gets it tuned he will make more power.

Here is a dyno of Wetpoop's 3.4dohc. Its basically a stock engine in his old fiero.

You can see that a 3.4dohc can be more powerful than a supposidly built 383 sbc. If they raced in the 1/4, the 3.4 would probibly kick its ass. The 383 is only making 115hp at 4500rpm.

If more forum members had their sbc's dyno'd they might be in for a rude awakening.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 10-23-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: ranging from about $150-$300 thousand, but that is under your 6 figure limit.

Hey Aaron these numbers are 6 figures there buddy

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HARDCORE SBC FAN AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

http://clark.colgate.edu/doslander/rainman/rm45.wav

97X Baaam the future of rock and roll
97X Baaam the future of rock and roll
97X Baaam the future of rock and roll
97X Baaam the future of rock and roll
97X Baaam the future of rock and roll
97X Baaam the future of rock and roll

quote Originally posted by crzyone: You can see that a 3.4dohc can be more powerful than a supposidly built 383 sbc. If they raced in the 1/4, the 3.4 would probibly kick its ass. The 383 is only making 115hp at 4500rpm. If more forum members had their sbc's dyno'd they might be in for a rude awakening.

Finding one dyno of a V-8 showing less HP than a DOHC engine doesn't mean that most SBC swapped Fiero's have less power.
My ZZ4 has 309 to the wheels and runs 12.387 seconds.The fastest DOHC was turbo'd and ran 12.9 compared to my off-the-shelf normally-aspirated carb'd engine.
I have yet to see any real-world data of a 3.4L DOHC engine coming close to either of the above specs. Not saying it can't be done, But aside from wetpoop, how many other 3.4L DOHC dyno's have you seen?

If you want to compare one instance to another:
These DOHC powerwed Fiero's were taken from the 1/4 mile list.
mike kaas: 14.89@91mph (3.4 DOHC)
fieromadman:14.7@XXmph (3.4 DOHC-stock, manual tranny)
Wetpoop:14.40@XXmph FB (3.4 DOHC V6- stock, 5-speed)

I had a carb'd pushrod 3.4L with an auto trans that went 14.2 in the 1/4 mile in my car before going to the SBC.

Even modded DOHC cars:
DarthFiero: 14.15@98mph NB (3.4 DOHC V6, 5 speed getrag, custom chip(darth))
flames4me: 13.96@99mph (3.4 DOHC, bored.30, manual trans)
Went slower than Donk's carb'd 3.4L with stick that went 13.7.

So technically I could make a carb'd 3.4L pushrod engine sound like a better engine than the 3.4L DOHC.
I could even argue that with all the advances in electronically controlled fuel injection and aluminum multi-valve heads, It is still no match for an antiquated cast iron 2-valve headed engine of the same displacement running a carb.
By skewing the real-world data that has been provided I have just made the swap to a 3.4L DOHC look worse than just slapping a carb on a 3.4L pushrod engine.

Now before someone gets their undies in a bunch, No, I do not believe a carb'd pushrod engine is a better choice than the DOHC engine, I am just stating that many comparisons people use here tend to be skewed torwards the persons point they are making by using selected data and using it to represent all points. With the internet I'm sure we could find real-world data to support either side of the discussion (DOHC vs. Pushrod), But to use 1 piece of real-world data and use it to generalize all on that side of the discussion is very misleading.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 10-23-2005).]

Very well stated above.

Just for gigglies, check out this Dyno Video with sound of an SBC 304 cubic inch pulling 676 HP in the high rpm range:
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/dyno_movies.htm

Not bad for an "over the hill" old age, out dated design, pushrod SBC!!!

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 10-23-2005).]

Hey, someone mentioned Boombastic. His engine was supposed to be a 500hp giant, turns out it only makes 188rwhp. Adding cubes does not mean more power. It hampered him because all of a sudden the TPI intake which sucks to begin with was made to try and feed 383 cubes instead of 350.

Cali's engine supposidly makes 400hp, well without a dyno we'll never know.

An off the shelf performance sbc like yours is supposed to perform well. It has good flowing heads, intake and a suitable cam profile.

Comparing a stock 3.4dohc to your heavily modified 3.4 pushrod is not a good comparison. I would also say those 3.4's on the 1/4 mile list are not "heavily" modified except for the turbocharged one. Even then, its up to the modifier to select the proper turbo for whatever power putput he wants to make.

Your 3.4 had headwork, a different cam, pistons, intake and headers? Just guessing here. I imagine if a tdc had those exact mods, it would be around 300whp.

I was illustrating a point with Boom's dyno. Almost 6L of displacement would have been walked with by a lowly 3.4dohc. Doesn't have to be a 3.4dohc, he could have been beat by a stock 3800sc or N* as well.

Cali, didn't say a sbc couldn't make huge power, I know they can. 800hp nascar engines are powerful, but they are also $40,000 per engine. Not exacly off the shelf parts. This wouldn't fall under your category of affordable engines for swappers, neither would that motor you just showed us.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Cali, didn't say a sbc couldn't make huge power, I know they can. 800hp nascar engines are powerful, but they are also $40,000 per engine. Not exacly off the shelf parts. This wouldn't fall under your category of affordable engines for swappers, neither would that motor you just showed us.

I belive a little more research and reading would fix the remarks above.

Not dissing you cali, but arn't you a bit curious? I'll surly dyno my N* when its done, for tuning and I just need to know. This is more of a necessity for me, standalone pcm doesn't come with an optimal fuelmap.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: but arn't you a bit curious?

Nope........to me, that would be like speeding a hundred bucks for a piece of paper to confirm what I already know. Keep in mind that a heck of a lot of research went into everything done on my engine, from parts selection to modifications done on known engines with dyno sheets (there is a wealth of information on the SBC). As I told Kameo Kid when he was up here getting his project Dyno Tuned (he asked me the same question you did), If I start playing the Dyno game, my brain is going to start playing with getting even more out of the engine, that just the way I am. I've even got some parts in the garage that will boost it a little more, but they haven't gone on yet. So you ask why.............Because I'm 100% happy with the way it runs now, and I don't feel very comfortable about throwing any more HP or Torque at the Getrag than I already am.

Now if I went with the setup pictured on the top of this page, I'd be taking a trip to the Dyno to have it dialed in. Keep in mind, the horse/torque would be kept closely to what I'm running now.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: Comparing a stock 3.4dohc to your heavily modified 3.4 pushrod is not a good comparison. I would also say those 3.4's on the 1/4 mile list are not "heavily" modified except for the turbocharged one. Even then, its up to the modifier to select the proper turbo for whatever power putput he wants to make. Your 3.4 had headwork, a different cam, pistons, intake and headers? Just guessing here. I imagine if a tdc had those exact mods, it would be around 300whp. I was illustrating a point with Boom's dyno. Almost 6L of displacement would have been walked with by a lowly 3.4dohc. Doesn't have to be a 3.4dohc, he could have been beat by a stock 3800sc or N* as well.

My point was that how facts are portrayed could be misleading. When I quoted your post, It was because your post sounded (to me) as if you were generalizing ALL SBC swapped Fiero's based on the two dyno's of two specific V-8's compared to a specific DOHC dyno. Which to me was misleading.

If your post wasn't suppose to sound that way then I apologize, But the way you worded it does make it seem as though you are relating it to all SBC powered Fiero's.

The carb'd 3.4L vs. the 3.4DOHC was just an example to show how facts can be skewed to make one sound better than the other by using actually data. Yes my 3.4L was highly modified (actually the pistons were stock ) and based on mods that I did, not a good or valid comparison. But with the omission of how modded my engine was, It could sound like the carb'd pushrod would be a better choice to someone who doesn't know. Hence, My point of how even real data could be used to skew an opinion one way or the other.

Have you thought about running for a gov't office yet? :P

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Hence, My point of how even real data could be used to skew an opinion one way or the other.