Today I took my '87 SE out of service to rebuild the suspension and brakes. Most of the new parts have arrived, so it's time to start taking out the old nasty stuff. Here's a photo of the left front suspension, to give you an idea just how nasty the old suspension is:

I decided to start on the rear suspension. I figured since it's not as complex as the front suspension, the job should go pretty quick. WRONG! I removed the brake calipers and rotors, and tried to disengage the struts from the knuckles. The nuts came off with no problem, but 3 of the strut mounting bolts refuse to come out. The bolts are rust-locked into place. I first tried to break them loose with a 24" breaker bar. No go. So I slipped a 4' piece of pipe over the breaker bar and tried again. It felt like the breaker bar was going to snap in two, but the bolts didn't budge.

Then I got out the propane torch and a glass of ice cubes. I tried the "fire and ice" tactic, heating the knuckle with the torch and putting ice cubes on the ends of the bolts. The freakin' bolts still didn't budge. Copious cursing ensued.

So then I decided to remove the struts and knuckles in one piece and see if the guys at the machine shop can press out the bolts. This, of course, required a deep 30mm socket to remove the hub nuts. And thus began the search for the Holy Grail... err... I mean the 30mm socket. I went to AutoZone, Advance Auto, NAPA, Pep Boys, Home Depot, and Lowes; NONE of them had a deep 30mm socket.

More cursing ensued.

So with the sun going down and a light drizzle falling, I embarked on the 30-minute trek to Ace Hardware. EUREKA! Right there on the shelf, a deep 30mm socket for $8.99. I felt like hugging the employees... but bid them a hearty "thank you and good night" instead.

Ace Hardware RULES!!!

At least the day ended on a good note. Tomorrow, I get to extract the strut/hub assemblies from the car. Hopefully, I'll get that done before the machine shop closes, but I'm not holding my breath. I'll try to take some photos, as well.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-25-2004).]

Tell you why you will need the bolts pressed out, they are pressed in (in a manner of speaking) I worked on a strut line for an outsourcing company doing GM FWD vehicles. The bolts are not smooth (not supposed to be!) , the ends are threaded but the shaft is ribbed length wise (like a clutch placement tool). The bolt is put in place and just sticks out the otherside, the the nut is put on and tighten which pulls the bolt into the knuckle and "locking" it in place. Now, if you had air tools, I've seen shops crank up the pressure and just spin the bolts in the knuckle thus shaving of the ribbed area and smoothing the bolt shaft. Just takes a tap with a rubber mallet to remove them then and some gloves (HOT!)

edited so know one thinks I'm hookd on foniks
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3400 project underway

[This message has been edited by x-thumpr-x (edited 02-25-2004).]

*the footsteps of an ignorant man enter the room*

Hi.

Why is that suspension in that pic "nasty"? Are you referring to the shock area?
Other then that, I don't see anything nasty. But then again...I am ignorant when it comes to stuff like this, which is why I asked.

Please keep taking pics while you do the rebuild. I'm interested in watching this.

Thanks!

-FieroRumor

I had the same problem with my strut bolts. Got 3 of 'em out with sweat, blood, a big hammer and lots of cursing.

The last one I had to drill out. Slow going with that hardened steel bolt. I replaced them with grade 9 bolts, lots of torque and lock-tite.

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quote Why is that suspension in that pic "nasty"? Are you referring to the shock area?

You can see the rust. We all know that rust is bad. But from my point of view, the "nasty" part is the functional side of things:

-- The shocks and struts are worn out. The car almost floats down the road.
-- The rubber control arm bushings and old urethane sway bar bushings are starting to crack.
-- Three of the four front ball joints have play in them, plus the rubber boots are starting to crack. The ball joint and tie rod boots are oozing grease onto the steering knuckle.
-- On the rear suspension, the ball joints and toe links don't have any play in them, but the rubber boots are cracking.
-- The front brake rotors are worn down past minimum safe thickness.
-- The piston faces in the rear calipers are buggered up from using an impact wrench to turn them becaue they don't want to turn. And I think my left rear caliper is dragging. Plus I think the rear rotors are close to minimum safe thickness.

Basically, the suspension and brakes are shot. Instead of fixing it piecemeal, I decided to rip out the whole shebang so I can clean up the rusted stuff, replace the worn parts, and make it all shiney and new.

Regarding the strut bolts, I have some new ones from The Fiero Store that have camber adjustment washers. The old strut bolts will get tossed in the trash.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-25-2004).]

I made some progress on the rear suspension today. My main goal was to remove the strut/knuckle assemblies, so I could take 'em to the machine shop and have the stubborn bolts pressed out. Unfortunately, I didn't get the work done before the machine shop closed.

In order to get the knuckles out, I first had to remove the hubs. This is accomplished by removing the center hub nut (a real PITA), and then removing the 3 bolts (18mm) that attach the hub to the knuckle. Here's a shot just before I broke the center hub nut loose:

I used the breaker bar with my Holy Grail... I mean, the 30mm socket ... and a lug wrench to keep the hub from turning. Side note: the Haynes manual recommends using a big screwdriver to keep the hub from turning. I snapped my biggest screwdriver in half trying to do this.

After getting the center nuts and outer bolts removed, you then have to remove the hub from the CV axle with a gear puller:

After you get the hub out, the end of the CV axle will basically be sitting loose inside the center of the knuckle:

Next, I disengaged the toe rods from the knuckles (18mm nuts with cotter pins), and popped the knuckles off the ball joints (15mm nut and bolt). I had to use a 4' long piece of steel pipe to get the knuckles off the ball joints. The pipe made it pretty easy. After that, I removed the nuts that attach the tops of the struts to the strut towers (13mm), and the strut/knuckle assemblies came right out.

I then lugged the strut/knuckle assemblies into the workshed and proceeded to disassemble all the strut hardware.

Man, was there a lot of rust! The rust came off the strut hats in big flakes... like supersized rusty Frosted Flakes. Nasty stuff. It's a good thing I bought new strut plates. The old ones were almost rusted through in the center near the rubber bushings (green arrows).

I still have to re-use the old spring perches, though. They appear to be usable. I was really surprised that the plastic and rubber pieces were in such good condition. They can definately be reused.

Tomorrow, I stop by the machine shop to have the strut bolts pressed out. Plus I still need to remove the control arms and toe rods. Then I get to clean everything up and start putting it all back together... with lots of new parts of course.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-26-2004).]

I have a different way of removing the nut off the CV joint. I put the spare tire on with 3 nuts, lower the car back down the use the johnson with a little extension bar (5 feet) and the nuts comes loose easily with no screwdriver mishap How easy was it to remove the springs though? I just bought some eibachs lowering spring and this will be one more thing to do while I change the engine.

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3400 project underway

What a coincidence! My new springs are Eibachs, too.

After you get the struts out of the car, you need a 10mm socket and a 21mm wrench (13/16" works too). The top of the strut shaft has a 10mm hex head on it. The nut that holds the strut hat on is 21mm (13/16"). The idea is to put the 21mm wrench on the nut, and then put on a breaker bar with a 10mm socket. What I did was lay the strut down on the floor, turn it so the breaker bar was pushed against the floor, and stand on the 13/16" wrench (and jump up and down on it a little). The 10mm socket keeps the strut shaft from turning while you're trying to break the nut loose. It also keeps the strut from rolling around while you're jumping on the wrench. If that sounds confusing, I can probably stage a photo tomorrow.

Once you get that nut off the strut, everything basically just slides off.

Oh, and BTW, use spring compressors. The springs are under pressure.

Once you get the struts back in the car, you'll need to have the alignment reset.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-28-2004).]

I didn't take any pictures yesterday, but I did get some work done on the suspension. Most of it was grinding rust off the spring perches and cleaning up the plastic and rubber strut hardware. To clean up the spring perches, I used the following tools:

After grinding off as much rust as I could with the drill, I gave the spring perches a liberal coating of Naval Jelly rust remover, washed them off, and sprayed on some black Rustoleum to prevent further rust. The perches were heavily pitted, but seem to be structurally sound. The end result looks like this:

While I was cleaning up the spring perches, I decided to look up into the strut towers and see what the situation is in there:

Sure enough, there was some rust. It doesn't seem as bad as the rust on the spring perches, but I'm still going to grind it off and spray on some Rustoleum (or maybe some rubberized undercoating). The last thing I want is to have my strut towers rust out. They're part of the frame.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-28-2004).]

You know...
those strut bolts always come out with a bit of spray lubicant, and a 3lb sledge hammer!
if you put the nuts on the end, and hit them using a small piece of wood to protect them, they can usually be reused (unless they are really rusted)

Rebuild cars to support my hobbies...do it all of the time! all of the GM FWD cars have the same prob!

Finally, you guys and girls get to see some nice new suspension parts. Here you see the Eibach springs assembled onto the KYB struts, with new upper strut plates from The Fiero Store:

NOTE: Unlike the original struts, the KYB struts don't have the 10mm hex heads on the ends of the shafts. Instead, they have a 6mm allen head. Also, the big nut is bigger than the original one... 22mm (7/8"?) instead of 21mm. Take a look:

I should be able to pick up the knuckles on monday. Until then, I still have plenty of work to do on the rear suspension. Here's the list:

-- Recondition control arms and install Prothane bushings
-- Replace the rubber dust boots on the ball joints and toe rods
-- De-rust the strut towers
-- Prep and paint the Grand Am brake hardware

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-28-2004).]

I plannd on putting a socket on the nut while the struts are still attached to the car. This prevents the strut from moving on you but while the shaft still turn on you?

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3400 project underway

SMorris: After I got the strut/knuckle assemblies out, I tried the small sledge. I had already bought new bolts, so I wasn't worried about the old ones... I smacked 'em pretty hard. But they didn't budge.

x-thumpr-x: Yeah, I think the shaft will still turn on you. Even with the strut still in the car, there's nothing holding the shaft in place (at least not the rotational aspect). You might be able to rig something up, though. If you have a 1/2" drive 30mm socket that has a hex-shaped end, and a 1/4" drive 10mm socket, you might be able to drop the 30mm socket over the 10mm one and use a pipe wrench or something to turn it. :shrug:

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-28-2004).]

i think your strut plates are upside down

Ah crap, I didn't even notice that. Thanks for the heads-up.

[EDIT] The photo has been replaced with one showing the plates installed correctly

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-28-2004).]

Today I got to play with the control arms. Oh goodie! It's amazing how much dirt and grime will attach itself to the control arms. There was enough gunk on the passenger side control arm to fill a 12oz. soda can.

Now I get to have some fun! I fired up the propane torch and burned out the old bushings:

I developed a pretty effective tactic for burning them out. I aimed the flame from the torch down the center of the bushing, so it would heat up the metal sleeve in the center. Once the sleeve got hot enough, it would melt the rubber around it, allowing it to slide through (with a little help from a long screwdriver). The metal sleeves popped out like they were launched from a slingshot. It was fun.

After I got the metal sleeves out, I broke up the rubber with a screwdriver and dug the bits out. The whole process took about 20-30 minutes. The stench of burning rubber was horrible, though.

In contrast, cleaning the control arms took over 2 hours.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-29-2004).]

In contrast, cleaning the control arms took over 2 hours.

[/QUOTE]

You might have saved yourself some cleaning time by having the bushings pressed out, that way you would not have to deal with melted rubber on them. The auto storeI got my bushings from pressed the old ones out and installed the new ones for free since I purchsed the bushings from them, most places I see that do this type of service charge about $3-$6 per bushing to do this. But for anyone who does not have access to a press, your metho is the only way to go if you wanna remove them.

Its not quite the only method.

When i rebuilt my suspension I burned out one bushing and thought "man, there has got to be a better way". I think I found it.

What I did for the rest was bake them in the oven at high temp for about 20 minutes or so. With a nice, thick set of oven mits, I pulled them out and the bushings were easy to push/pry out with a screwdriver. Would I do it this way again? You bet! It stinks when the rubber is baking, but it didn't do anything permanent to the oven.

I love threads like this

pass the popcorn please

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-Monkey

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: I love threads like this pass the popcorn please

What are you doing here? You're supposed to be posting pics of your two new cars!

I love these step by step threads too!

quote Originally posted by JacobHaley: Its not quite the only method. When i rebuilt my suspension I burned out one bushing and thought "man, there has got to be a better way". I think I found it. What I did for the rest was bake them in the oven at high temp for about 20 minutes or so. With a nice, thick set of oven mits, I pulled them out and the bushings were easy to push/pry out with a screwdriver. Would I do it this way again? You bet! It stinks when the rubber is baking, but it didn't do anything permanent to the oven.

What temperature did you have that at?

When I did my manifolds and crossover pipe, I baked them in the over to cure the paint. (500 degrees)... Heh, then took off for the afternoon.. the other people in the house didn't appriciate the smell much.

great write up black tree,..I might be coming to you for help when I get my car down here. I am probably guessing I am going to have to do many of the same things.

P.S. Do you belong to the Central Florida Fiero Club ?? If not you should join. We have a meeting coming up on thursday.
We can always use another fiero owner.

I picked up the knuckles from the machine shop today, so now I get to clean and paint them. I'm also prepping the control arms for painting. None of it's really photo-worthy, so I won't be posting any pics today.

quote You might have saved yourself some cleaning time by having the bushings pressed out, that way you would not have to deal with melted rubber on them.

Believe it or not, cleaning off the melted rubber was the easy part! With a rag soaked in mineral spirits, the melted rubber came right off. The long, tedious part was scraping off all the caked-on gunk. I wasn't joking when I said above that there was enough gunk to fill a soda can. After scraping off most of the junk, I then went at it with a brush and mineral spirits (some places were so tight that I had to use an old toothbrush). Once all the stuff was dissolved, I then had to clean it all off with degreaser.

I almost wished the rear ball joints were worn out, so I could remove them and have the control arms hot-tanked. It would've saved me a lot of work.

Exoticse: I used to be a CFFC member, back when Greg was the president. But I'm not really into the club scene anymore. Besides, I found PFF.

BTW, thanks everyone for the compliments.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-31-2005).]

I've been busy painting the suspension and brake parts this morning. Here's what I have ready so far:

-- Brake rotor shields

-- Rear knuckles

-- Rear (Grand Am) brake rotors

-- Sway bars with urethane bushings

I'm getting ready to put a second coat of paint on the control arms, and paint the brake calipers.

In case you're wondering, I picked the paint colors not for the color per se, but for the temperature rating. The paints you see on the suspension/brake parts are colors that I just happened to have on hand. The gloss black (strut hats, control arms, sway bars, etc) is your garden variety Rustoleum, not rated for high heat. The silver (knuckles, calipers, dust shields) is rated for 500F degrees. And the flat black on the brake rotors is rated for 1500F degrees. The flat black has to be heated to cure, so I baked the brake rotors in the barbecue.

Side Note: Wire nuts and split wire loom are great for plugging up bolt holes while you're painting stuff.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-02-2004).]

ooo, this looks like fun =)
I'm pulling my parts car Fiero into my garage this spring to do this while I'm driving my other one... then it's just a matter of swapping everything out!
Thanks for the write up! I'll definitely be bookmarking... looks great!

Awsome write up, I have to do this soon, kinda look fun. One question thoe, when you remove the old bushings can you just push in the new one or does a shop have to do that too?

Golden86: You can install the urethane bushings yourself. I had to pound mine in with a rubber mallet, without the metal sleeves installed. After that, I was able to push in the metal inner sleeves about 3/4 of the way. I pushed 'em in the rest of the way with a C-clamp.

The control arms were pretty hard to reinstall, too. I had to use a pair of 4" C-clamps to push in the driver's side control arm:

I couldn't use the C-clamps on the passenger side, because the exhaust pipe was in the way. So I parked the loaner car next to mine, and used one of its wheels as an anchor for me to push against with my feet. After some grunting and swearing (and some adjustments with a pry bar), I got it lined up with the bolt holes.

I have most of the rear suspension installed now. All that's left are the toe link rods and sway bar... and of course the brakes.

is that the held motorsports rear swaybar?

I just ordered about $460+ worth of restoration parts for just the front suspension.

After all is said and done, ill have all bushings in my car made of poly except the transmission mounts.

all ball joints, and tie rod ends will be replaced, steering rack will be rebuilt. all kindsa stuff.

matthew

Where are you at in Kissimmee? I live 10 min. away?

Would like to see in person if I may.

John

Nice. looks just like mine wich I compleated 2 weeks ago. nice work

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-Chris
86 GT
***95 Camaro 3.4 swap, Ported and polished heads and intakes, CRX CAI, Custom Cam, steel vacuum lines, steel braided EGR tube, new Wire Harness, New Exhaust, No Cat, Flowmaster, polished poly dog bone. Isuzu 5 speed, Short through shifter
***Intrax 2" drop springs, Full Polly Suspension, Sencetrack Struts and Shocks, Grand AM brake upgrade, steel braided brake lines, 17" Gun Metal Wheels, Khumo Tires
***Racing Seats, SunPro tach w/ shift light, carbon fiber Steering wheel, Carbon Fiber dash accents and custom sphere shift knob

quote is that the held motorsports rear swaybar?

No, it's an Addco bar I've had for 5-6 years. I decided to paint it and install it on the '87 SE.

quote Would like to see in person if I may.

Umm... OK. Check your PM's.

I dig this thread! i used Duplicolor Wheel paint on my control arms after seeing Steve Vincent (B V Motorsports) use it in the engine compartment of his 4.9 conversion. I used Bumper Chrome on my spindles brake splash shields and the cut coil springs after cleaning them up, and I used Hi Temp paint on my rotors and cured them in the oven (while the wife was away) before getting them resurfaced. 'Cause i had the paint already...

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John DuRette
Black 85 SE, undergoing work as we speak!
Battery re-located up front using a V8 Archie box
Remote Start/Window Rollup/Lock/Trunk Release/Alarm
White Gauge Faces w/120 MPH Speedometer Conversion
Urethane Suspension Bushings
Sequential Tallights
Custom Painted Dash Panels
Oreif's painted door tabs and horn button
Shortened Automatic Shifter w/Beretta shiftknob
SpyHunter Scoop
H4 Headlight Conversion - done right!
LED Third Brake Light/Custom Headliner
Braided Steel Brake Hoses
Lowered an inch

Still not on the road!

Things took longer than expected. I have all the rear suspension parts installed, but still need to drill the holes for the sway bar clamps. Right now, the sway bar is hanging on the end links. That should be corrected tomorrow.

On a side note: to torque down the hub nuts, I used the spare tire method that x-thumpr-x described. It worked really well. While the car was lowered onto the spare tire (a full-size spare, and one of my "real" wheels on the other side), I got a glimpse of the suspension drop from the Eibach springs. The wheels were almost dead-center in the wheel wells.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-05-2004).]

The rear suspension and brakes are done! Here are a couple shots:

Please excuse the dirtiness of the rest of the car.

I used a 3/8" cobalt-steel drill bit to drill the sway bar clamp mounting holes. It cut through the engine cradle like butter.

I also took the car for a little spin. I only drove for about 8-10 miles, and didn't go over 50MPH. But the rear suspension felt nice and tight. It was a stark contrast to the worn-out front suspension, which also has the sway bar removed for refurbishing. I'd also like to add that my urethane bushings didn't squeak, at least not that I could hear. That might be because I installed the bushings dry, and really greased up the insides of the bushings, the metal sleeves, and control arm mounting bolts. We'll see if the quiet lasts.

Also, I was able to confirm that the Eibach springs do cause an initial suspension drop of 0.8". I measured the distance from the center of the wheel to the top center of the wheel wells with the stock suspension, and measured it again with the new suspension. The measurement for the stock suspension was about 15.6", and the new suspension reduced it to about 14.8". As I mentioned before, the rear wheels are now almost dead-center in the wheel wells.

I can't wait to get the front suspension done!

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-06-2004).]

This is cool! I've been getting all the parts (tie rods,poly bushings, upper & lower ball joints, Eibach lowering springs,shocks,struts,etc) to do my front and rear suspension on my '87 GT.

When you do the front post those pics too!

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Wow, back on page 12!

I got sidetracked from the suspension rebuild by a few other things. Like, for example, the exhaust system. After lowering the rear end, the (aftermarket) muffler was about 2" off the ground. Yikes! So I spent an evening modding the exhaust hangers to "tuck in" the muffler about 1.5" higher. I also removed the parking brake cables, since the parking brake isn't functional anymore. I had also promised to do some work on the loaner car, in return for driving it. Basically, a junkyard run.

And finally, after bustin' my arse for almost 2 weeks straight, I needed some R&R. So I took a couple days to recupe.

Now I'm back at work on the front suspension. I don't have any pics as of yet, but I'm sure I'll have the front suspension removed by the end of this month. The car's been fighting me every step of the way.

[EDIT: A couple shots of the muffler "lift and tuck" operation]

Stock suspension with hanging muffler:

New suspension with tucked-up muffler:

The lowest point on the exhaust system is now about 1/2" above the lowest point on the engine cradle. So I won't have to worry about the muffler scraping.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-16-2004).]

Umm, wow! That's some wing you've got there! Are you planning on keeping it like that? I hope not.

Anyway, great thread; I love what you're doing. I hope to be doing something similar soon. Without the wing of course! Keep the pix coming!

quote That's some wing you've got there! Are you planning on keeping it like that?

I jacked the spoiler up because I wanted it to be functional. But I have an idea for a different way to generate downforce in the rear end, without the big wing. The car has other issues that need to be addressed before that, though.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-16-2004).]