whew, this is really usefull info. Im gonna be installing my lowering springs (suspension techniques, I wanted a larger drop) and the kyb struts as soon as my springs arrive. Hopefully i wont have to pull the whole hub off!! Im debating on doing poly bushings. I dont wanna have to go through the hell of burning them out so im thinking that im gonna have the suspension shop do it right before they align it. I have new ball joints and my tie rod ends are good. I cant think of anything else i'll need to keep my car in good shape. Everything is clean and rust free on mine..

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REMEMBER: If you cant win the race you loose the argument!!

www.geocities.com/j_depies

I FINALLY got the front suspension out. Man, what a pain in the butt! The lower ball joints didn't want to come loose from the steering knuckles (I bent my pickle fork trying), so I decided to leave the knuckles attached to the lower control arms and deal with the ball joints later (when My ball joint tool from Rodney Dickman arrives). But the rear bolts on the lower control arms didn't want to come out, either. I tried several different methods to extract the bolts without destroying them, but finally gave up and chopped 'em with a sawzall.

One of the upper control arm bolts didn't want to come out, either. So I left it attached to the crossmember, and dealt with it after the crossmember was removed. Some "gentle persuasion" with a 2-pound mallet changed its mind.

The front wheel wells are looking pretty bare now.

After extracting the front suspension, I took a look at the underbody to get an idea of the rust situation under there. I was met with a pleasant surprise:

The underbody has very little rust. There is some rust around the drainplugs under the seats. The coolant pipes have some surface rust (I thought they were stainless steel?). And the brake lines are getting rusty. But that's about it.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-17-2004).]

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: whew, this is really usefull info. Im gonna be installing my lowering springs (suspension techniques, I wanted a larger drop) and the kyb struts as soon as my springs arrive. Hopefully i wont have to pull the whole hub off!! Im debating on doing poly bushings. I dont wanna have to go through the hell of burning them out so im thinking that im gonna have the suspension shop do it right before they align it. I have new ball joints and my tie rod ends are good. I cant think of anything else i'll need to keep my car in good shape. Everything is clean and rust free on mine..

IMO I would be satisfied with the S.T. springs, poly bruishings, and the shocks your getting. I'd been there done that, anything lower just for the "cool" look and you'll have headaches and empty pockets. To get a lower look, use ground fx and bigger rims to feel the rear gap. If you get coil-overs one could lower it just for show, but not for go unless it's taken to the track or something.
General rule of thumb: 2-3 finger gap in the back and 1 1/2 fingers in the front.

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Yay! My new balljoint tool from Rodney Dickman arrived today! So I was able to seperate those pesky lower balljoints from the steering knuckles. The upper balljoints were already out, So I installed a bolt with a nut and washer as a "dummy ball joint" in the top.

I cranked on the balljoint tool with a pair of wrenches until it was really tight, and gave the end of the "dummy bolt" a nice hard rap with the mallet. The balljoint popped loose with a loud *CRACK*. Rodney's instructions say to leave the castle nut on the balljoint while doing this. With all that pent-up energy, when that balljoint breaks loose it could send the balljoint and/or steering knuckle flying.

I was also able to remove the bushings from the front upper control arms without using the torch. I used a C-clamp and an empty hole saw as a makeshift press. That saved me from enduring the stench of burning rubber, and made cleanup easier.

I also spent alot of time grinding away at the front crossmember. All the welds were rusting, but luckily the rust wasn't bad enough to threaten the structural integrity of the crossmember. Other than the welds, there wasn't very much rust... which pleases me very much.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-18-2004).]

madcurl, i meant taht i wanted the suspension techniques over the eibachs because of the larger drop gained with the ST's. My 18's allready do a good job of filling the wheel gap, btw . I just bought a front swaybar to put on the rear, my shocks and springs arrived so now im just waiting to make sure that i'll have enough money for the poly kit. My camber kit will also get installed. That'll wrap up the suspension side of things for a while! Now on to finishing the sound system.. and the engine... and the.. well you get the point. Thanks for the pictures by the way, your doing a great job with your suspension restoration!

Looks like you'll be putting in Poly bushings? I believe otherwise you'd have to press out the steel sleeve that the rubber bushings were in. I heard from thers its real easy to distort the metal of the a-arms unless you support the outer parts of the arm while pressing out the whole rubber bushing and metal sleeve. Some clever folk cut muffler pipe and welded a half-round piece in there to re-enforce the space.

I'll be installing urethane bushings.

Alrighty, the front crossmember and upper control arms are good to go. They now have a nice coat of black Rustoleum. Plus, the control arms have new Prothane bushings. I also took a few minutes to tap the rivet holes in the control arms (where the brake lines are attached). It turns out that the rivet holes are perfectly sized for SAE 3/8" threads. Take a look:

I also took a close look at the metal bars that run between the crossmember and the radiator. They were badly rusted near the ends.

I'm not going to reuse them. I'll order some replacements from The Fiero Store.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-20-2004).]

Man, I love this thread! Keep up the great work.

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Hi Blacktree
looks like your doing an excellent job keep up the good work.
Bob

I've been hearing about how the Grand Am brakes increase unsprung weight. So while I was waiting for some painted parts to dry, I got out the bathroom scale and started weighing stuff. Here's what I came up with:

Front Fiero Brakes (caliper, rotor/hub, pads) -- 17 lb
Rear Fiero Brakes (caliper w/ parking brake hardware, rotor, pads) -- 16 lb

Front Grand Am Brakes (modded Fiero hub, rotor, caliper, pads) -- 25 lb
Rear Grand Am Brakes (rotor, caliper, pads) -- 20 lb

So according to my scale, the Grand Am upgrade adds about 8 lb per wheel in the front and 4 lb per wheel in the back. I can probably offset about 3-4 lb per wheel by purchasing lighter wheels. But that will still leave 4-5 lb per wheel of extra weight in the front.

Anyone know how much the RCC or Held tubular control arms weigh? Also, how much weight can be removed by having the rotors crossdrilled?

I'm not totally sure the net impact of the extra weight of the swap. I doubt it adds extra effort to steering and guys running super large rims are adding weight I suspect would have more impact on handling. I mean, initially you're going to think, 'extra weight! oh no!' but considering the effort you put into the steering wheeel only swings that weight back and forth not up and down (That's handled by the suspension) I can only imagine it would be harder on the shocks and springs. Maybe the extra weight might even be good? Ther ehave been lots of discussions about this swap and my only conclusion - really - is that the issue of safety because of the front/rear bias of the master cylinder (Blazer) is an issue. I wouldn't change the rear brakes since I need a parking brake in VA. I suspect the earlier year Corvette MC is a good choice but the front and rear pistons handle opposite ends of the car as oposed to the Fiero...simple enough, right?

Didn't notice if it was mentioned or not, but here is a suggestion with the urethane bushings. If the urethane is put in the freezer and set over night and one bushing is removed from the freezer as you're working, they go into place much easier. Did this with my 85 GT when working on the suspension and worked great.

quote I mean, initially you're going to think, 'extra weight! oh no!' but considering the effort you put into the steering wheeel only swings that weight back and forth not up and down (That's handled by the suspension) I can only imagine it would be harder on the shocks and springs. Maybe the extra weight might even be good?

Increasing unsprung weight increases the inertia that the suspension components have to overcome. In effect, it decreases the amount of control that the springs/dampers have over the wheels. Less control = sloppier handling.

While something like 4 lb of extra unsprung weight might not be noticeable to me, just the idea of it being there kinda bugs me.

Thanks for taking the time to do this writeup! Helped me out a lot! Especially the idea of pushing the old rubber out with a holesaw and c-clamp!

Now that you have the crossmember bolted in, you can paint those exposed bolts! I've been second-guessing my choice of the Poly a-arm bushings, I'm concerned about vibration shaking apart my steering column. I can always get driving gloves to protect my hands from vibration. Maybe a a-arm from a junkyard car would be a better choice, rather than install and destroy a rubber bushing?

Looking Good!

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 03-27-2004).]

Hmmm... maybe. But I don't really want to have to take the sawzall just to cut through some more stubborn A-arm bolts. Not to mention disassembling the suspension in another car. Disassembling one is bad enough. Plus, I'm going to have to pay the machine shop $10 to press out the ball joint. In the end, it will probably cost me more than just buying a rubber bushing and installing/gutting it.

Speaking of rubber control arm bushings... I'm having one hell of a time finding anyplace local that sells them. None of the local parts stores (AutoZone, Pep Boys, NAPA, Advance) stock the front lower control arm bushings. I gave up and called a Pontiac dealer. They said the bushings were discontinued!

Luckily, The Fiero Store sells rubber suspension bushings. But I'll have to wait for shipping. That's another 4-5 days before the suspension will be done. Plus, I'm still waiting on one of the modded front hubs from PURPLE REIGN (long story). I've only been waiting for it for about 5 weeks...

On a positive note, the spindles, calipers, and rotors are ready to go. I just need to finish up the brake rotor shields, and of course the lower control arms.

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
Nextel 2 way is 111*32*19163

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: The whole process took about 20-30 minutes. The stench of burning rubber was horrible, though.

I took my control arms into work and soaked the bushings in liquid nitrogen. The rubber bushings shrunk and froze. A light tap with a small hammer and the bushings fell out and shattered like glass when they hit the floor. I let the control arms thaw out, Greased them and slid the poly in. Then swept up the rubber. Took about 20 minutes.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: I took my control arms into work and soaked the bushings in liquid nitrogen. The rubber bushings shrunk and froze. A light tap with a small hammer and the bushings fell out and shattered like glass when they hit the floor. I let the control arms thaw out, Greased them and slid the poly in. Then swept up the rubber. Took about 20 minutes.

Oreif,
That is the COOLEST way of rmoving bushings I have ever heard of
Where do you work that you have liquid nitrogen laying around?

Liquid Nitrogen? That's great! I'll pick some up at Walmart! Hahaha! On to some serious stuff... I ripped the rubber boots on my upper ball joints (front of course) and now I'm scrambling to find replacement rubber. No luck at NAPA, Autozone, or Pep Boys. One of those places recommended JC Whitney... this may be the way to go, since I can get 10% off orders $80 and above; I wanted a set of rear lowering springs to go with my (1 coil) cut front springs. They happen to cost $79.99! I am rotatingthe upper ball joints 180° to change the camber change due to the springs. The ball joints are in good shape not rusted or corroded due to the enormous amount of grease they were incased in. Still very snug, the chrome on the ball inside polished and shiney. I took some vise grips and collard the sleeve then (gently) whacked the VG handle to get them loose, used brake cleaner and elbow grease to clean them up and painted them with some Rustoleum Automotive Gloss Black after masking off the grease fitting and inside post and ball joint. I'm willin' to spend $6 on boots, not $44-$120 for all new uppers.

quote Originally posted by STRATOHACKER: Oreif, That is the COOLEST way of rmoving bushings I have ever heard of Where do you work that you have liquid nitrogen laying around?

Get a large stainless steel-lined thermos and go to your local welding gas supplier to get LN2. THey will not put LN2 in a thermos that has a glass liner. Last time I got some it cost me $10 for a quart.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Get a large stainless steel-lined thermos and go to your local welding gas supplier to get LN2. THey will not put LN2 in a thermos that has a glass liner. Last time I got some it cost me $10 for a quart. JazzMan

Wow Thanks Jazzman.
I actually do think it is a great idea and I will try it next time I do bushings. I really hate the smell of burning rubber.
I had no idea you could actually get the stuff.
Richey

Thumbs up on this thread!

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Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd
86 Pontiac Fiero GT Red/Silver 2.8L 5spd

Liquid nitrogen... sounds cool. But if you spill any of it on yourself, you're in trouble. It would be wise to put the LN₂ in a container and dip the part in it, instead of trying to pour the stuff onto the parts.

quote If the urethane is put in the freezer and set over night and one bushing is removed from the freezer as you're working, they go into place much easier.

I'll have to try this out with the front lower bushings.

quote Now that you have the crossmember bolted in, you can paint those exposed bolts!

Yup.

Soon I should have some good pics of the mods needed for the front Grand Am brakes.

quote Originally posted by USFiero: Liquid Nitrogen? That's great! I'll pick some up at Walmart! Hahaha! On to some serious stuff... I ripped the rubber boots on my upper ball joints (front of course) and now I'm scrambling to find replacement rubber. No luck at NAPA, Autozone, or Pep Boys. One of those places recommended JC Whitney... this may be the way to go, since I can get 10% off orders $80 and above; I wanted a set of rear lowering springs to go with my (1 coil) cut front springs. They happen to cost $79.99! I am rotatingthe upper ball joints 180° to change the camber change due to the springs. The ball joints are in good shape not rusted or corroded due to the enormous amount of grease they were incased in. Still very snug, the chrome on the ball inside polished and shiney. I took some vise grips and collard the sleeve then (gently) whacked the VG handle to get them loose, used brake cleaner and elbow grease to clean them up and painted them with some Rustoleum Automotive Gloss Black after masking off the grease fitting and inside post and ball joint. I'm willin' to spend $6 on boots, not $44-$120 for all new uppers.

By me, Auto Zone, Pep Boys, and Murray's auto parts all sell the poly boots on the shelf for ball joints and tie rods. They are around $12 for a pair.

Alright, here's some technical info regarding the Grand Am front brake upgrade. As some of you know, the caliper mounting brackets need to be modified to fit the Grand Am rotors. If you look at the photo below, you can see the two metal "pads" that need to be ground down to prevent interference with the rotors. Also note that one of the ribs on the Grand Am caliper interferes with the bracket, as well.

If something isn't done about the interference between the caliper and bracket, the caliper will be misaligned. It will also keep the caliper from freely sliding back and forth. This could cause some serious issues. I can see 2 ways to remove the interference:

1) Grind a groove in the bracket to accomodate the rib on the caliper. This will be a one-time-only mod, as opposed to grinding on every new caliper you buy. But some may be worried about reducing the structural integrity of the bracket.
2) Grind off the appropriate rib on the caliper. Every replacement caliper will need to be ground in a similar manner. Also, make sure to grind far enough along the length of the rib to accomodate the sliding of the caliper.

In the articles I've read, many say that you should grind about 1/8" off the metal "pads" on the brackets to accomodate the Grand Am rotors. The problem is that they're telling you to measure and cut using a rough-cast surface as a reference. Rough-cast surfaces are uneven. Measurements taken from a rough-cast surface are inherently inaccurate. The idea here is to find a machined surface (e.g. more precise) from which to take your measurements. Hopefully this will save you (and me) from going through the repeated cycle of installing the brake hardware, checking for clearance, taking it back apart, grinding some more, etc.

It just so happens that the mating surfaces for the caliper (directly opposite from the metal pads) are machined, to provide a precise mating surface for the caliper (see photo below).

So you can accurately measure (and mark) how much you need to grind off by measuring out from the machined surfaces, instead of measuring in from the rough-cast surfaces (refer to photo below). This also allows you to measure your progress while grinding. I measured the thickness from the machined surface to the cast surface at about 0.8". Assuming that I need to grind about 1/8" from the cast surface, this would mean that I need to reduce the thickness between the surfaces to about 0.675". I decided to grind it down to 0.65". My grinds aren't going to be perfectly flat, so this gives me some margin for error.

When I get a chance to assemble the brake hardware onto a spindle, I'll check the clearances and give you a more definite value for the desired thickness.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: By me, Auto Zone, Pep Boys, and Murray's auto parts all sell the poly boots on the shelf for ball joints and tie rods. They are around $12 for a pair.

I checked Pep Boys, Autozone, Advance and NAPA here in town. No luck... Now, this is for the front upper ball joints, not the others. I have some poly covers coming for the lowers, and the tie rods, I think they are different sizes. And Pep Boys just stop selling the poly. Autozone had the others but got mine from Suspension Restoration on line, $3 a pair, and Control arm bushings $51/front set.

The Prothane tie rod / ball joint dust boots are a "one size fits all" design. They'll fit on any of the ball joints and tie rod ends, although the fit may not be as good as the original rubber ones, which were designed specifically for each part.

I finally have the front lower control arms ready to install. As I mentioned earlier, one of the metal casings for the rubber bushings was rusted to pieces. I bought a pair of rubber bushings at The Fiero Store (they come in pairs), and had a machine shop press one of them in. I also had the new ball joints pressed in.

In another thread (in Technical Discussion, I think), someone mentioned that the Prothane bushings for the front lower A-arms had to be modified to fit. There is a trim ring (or whatever you want to call it) that fits over one end of each bushing. This trim ring is too tall. It has to be cut down about 1/8". It just so happens that the trim rings fit perfectly over a washer fluid bottle cap. I put the rings on the cap to keep them from squashing as I cut them with the coping saw.

I also found that the part that's cut off fits perfectly on a 2" hole saw (taped onto the hole saw) which, used along with a big C-clamp, can be used to press in the urethane bushings while preventing the hole saw from scratching up the paint.

Here's a shot of the front lowers, with new ball joints, urethane bushings, and a fresh coat of Rustoleum:

Now that the control arms are finally ready, I can install them in the car, along with the spindles, springs, and shocks... and one modded hub. I've given up on PURPLE REIGN, so I'm going to have one of my original hubs modified by a local machine shop.

don't mean to beat this some more, but the front upper ball joints use a 'capture ring' to hold them on and have a flare at the bottom. I'm still doing some looking, but may have to break down and buy some complete upper BJ. Seems a waste.

Those front lower control arms are turning out to be a real pain in the butt. Now I'm having trouble finding mounting bolts to replace the ones I had to chop with the sawzall. It looks like M12 x 1.75 x 100mm, grade 10.9 is the correct size and hardness. The trick is getting the bolts in the grade 10.9 flavor. None of the local hardware stores have the correct ones, and neither do any of the Pontiac dealerships in the area. So now I open up the phonebook and start calling nut&bolt suppliers...

(edited for correct bolt size)

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-03-2004).]

USFiero: I didn't mess with my old front upper ball joints (they went straight into the trash), but I did have to contend with the "capturing rings" or whatever you wanna call them on the front lower ball joints. I was able to pry them off with a big flat-head screwdriver. I placed the screwdriver between the ring and the control arm, and twisted. I had to methodically work all the way around the boots, but I did get them off. You may be able to do something similar with the front uppers if do it with the ball joints on the control arms.

Looks like PURPLE REIGN is going to come through with that hub after all. That'll save me some trouble, and some cash.

Regarding the front lower control arm bolts, I couldn't find anyplace that sells the correct size in grade 10.9 hardness. So I had to settle for grade 8.8 bolts, with stainless nuts and washers. This kinda bugs me, because the original bolts were grade 10.9. I'll have to keep an eye on them to see how they hold up. I also got a pair of short 3/8" stainless bolts for securing the rubber brake hoses (which will fit the threads I tapped in the front upper control arms).

I also had to drill and tap the mounting holes for the front sway bar brackets. Two of the old bolts broke, so I had to drill them out. I took this opportunity to "upsize" to SAE 3/8" grade 8 bolts.

Hopefully, tomorrow I'll have a nice photo or two of the mostly-installed front suspension.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-03-2004).]

Make sure you have lock nuts(not lock washers) on those control arm bolts...two miles down the road without them and kiss that nut...and the bolt goodbye!
McMaster.com has the bolts...$4.51 pack of 5(black oxide) $6.88(5) Blue coated. I don't know the difference.

[This message has been edited by Joe Torma (edited 04-03-2004).]

OOPS! I didn't buy locking nuts, because I figured bottoming out the nuts on the threads would hold them in place. I'm not going to chance it.

BTW, I got most of the suspension components installed today.

After the second hub arrives, I can install the brakes. And while I'm waiting for it, I can refurbish the steering components. I think I'm finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel... hope it isn't a freight train coming my way.

Looking good! Just wondering though, you're using the Prothane poly kit, right? Did you have any problems with the UCA bolt fitting into the sleeves that came with the kit? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/048777.html

Thanks!

Nope, no problems with UCA mounting bolts. They fit into the new metal sleeves just as easily as they fit into the original ones (rust notwithstanding). And FYI, it's the Prothane Total Poly Kit, part # PTP-7-2034 from Summit... same one you bought. And my car is a 1987 SE.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-03-2004).]

Well, I am using the rubber ball joint covers from the lower ball joints on the upper ball joints. The Poly covers are stiffer and shorter than the stock lower covers they replace. The lower rubber covers are longer, stiffer and a little thicker than the stock upper covers. I won't be using the capture ring on the uppers, I believe the suspension will hold it all together just fine. In the worst case situation I'll just replace them later.
<BUMP> to keep this thread up.

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 04-04-2004).]