They already understand the aspects of power delivery with respect to displacement, the amount of cylidners, RPM, and its delivery.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That'll show 'em Aaron. You had much more "colorful" speech with regard to Archie and his supporters on RFT. Worried about getting banned, are we? Wouldn't want to lose that income you make off of people here, now would you? You're like MTA, minus 2 cylinders.

it wouldn't be the first forum that he gets banned from .......or even the 2nd........don't even think it would be the third.....

he does have quite a bit of knowledge about the DOHC but he doesn't carry himself in a very mature manner most of the time....

[This message has been edited by 86fierose (edited 12-28-2005).]

Let this thread die.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 12-28-2005).]

I just want to say my Dick is big, no really it huge. No I don’t think you under stand its enormous. It may be the dick to beat all dicks.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: I just want to say my Dick is big, no really it huge. No I don’t think you under stand its enormous. It may be the dick to beat all dicks.

LMAO SO HARD I almost fell on the floor, or was it, pushed over, on the floor.

So, what are you trying to say?

Ah yes, I remember the good 'ol days of years past arguing with nearly 300 of his minions before the illustrious Archie appears.....

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Former West Coast Fiero Employee

There are those who know and those and those who belive they know and those who want to make everyone belive.

Why do people that don't know, keep trying to be the ones wanting to make everyone belive what is already proven not to be true.

The new vette engine went from a 350 to a 427 for a reason. And I don't think it was for towing capacity.

Damn this thread is funny

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Cant wait for Dyno Time and Track Results. Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Delta Cam and Allante Intake Soon.

There's no replacement for displacement, kids. Anything you can do to a 2.0l motor to make it faster you can do to a 6.0l motor to make it faster. Match any 2 engines mod for mod and the higher displacement one, unless its a really crappy motor, is going to come out on top.

I really dont have an opinion on this..each motor has its place. I will say from a Manufactoring stand point, it is easier to make the same amount of horsepower from more discplacement. its simple fact. With more discplacement u are burning more fuel therefore more energy is released. I will say that it is possible to make High HP from low discplacement cars..it is proven. Im kinda stuck on which one i prefer, i guess I would have to take into account what im going to do with my car. If im autocrossing id prolly go with light 4 cyl or 6, if i am dragracing id go with a V8. I guess what i am saying is to each his own it just depends on what YOU want.

V8 Fieros have to be going between 0-10 mph to have any power at all!

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Ignorant statement

Before I rant...I would love to do a Northstar, or an LTx, LSx, TPI, Carb'd, DIY EFI or whatever small block chevy swap. I have nothing against them, and they are great motors.

Now on to the carnage.

Displacement DOES ultimately equal power...kinda. You can't make a huge engine lightweight, and the bigger it gets, the slower it has to turn unless you like your engines in pieces. Obviously no one here is going around trying to stick in 800CI big blocks, but does SOMEONE understand what I'm saying?

Most people equate RPM's with engine life and longevity. I'll say this. When my SD4 will be turning at 8K RPM, the piston speed will be equal to that of an LS1 at 6000 RPM. How long does a VTEC motor last at 9000 RPM? How long does an LS1 last at 6500 RPM?

I plan on running low 11's and possibly high 10 sec 1/4 miles with my relatively low displacement 2.6l 4cyl. Everybody can say whatever the hell they want until I do it, but rest assured, a 4cyl Fiero from KS will be running much, much faster than 99% of the V8 Fieros on this board.

But my 0-100 time will probably suck and I am a ricer anyway and my motor won't last and I've spent too much money and V8's are just faster and I don't have enough liters!

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero:The new vette engine went from a 350 to a 427 for a reason. And I don't think it was for towing capacity.

You totally missed the point. We are not arguing that less displacement makes more power. The new Corvette also needs, well has, 505hp. The highest n/a HP 4 cyl that I can think of right now is the S2000 at 230 or 240. I'm sure if Honda wanted 500hp out of it, they'd bump displacement a lot. Yet as it stands, the Honda's motor is 28% the size in displaement of the Z06, yet makes 48% the horsepower. This shows that albeit one bada$$ motor, the Vette's engine is still inefficient in comparison. The true test of how well a motor is tuned is horsepower per liter, and the new Vette gets spanked.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: There's no replacement for displacement, kids. Anything you can do to a 2.0l motor to make it faster you can do to a 6.0l motor to make it faster. Match any 2 engines mod for mod and the higher displacement one, unless its a really crappy motor, is going to come out on top.

There is--kinda. Head flow and quench design. But assuming these two are the same on two motors, then yes, the higher displacement motor has the ability to make more power.

There has never been a factory small block head that outflows the heads on the LT5, or the intake side of the 3.4 DOHC. And there are very few, if ANY, aftermarket 2v heads that will outflow the 4v motor's stock numbers. Now we all know, or should know, Arao Engineering. This is the exception, the highest flowing bolt on SBC head period. It would own the LT5 or LQ1 heads, but this head package costs nearly $10,000.

Now quench design. A 4v head has a very efficient cylinder design, and burns the fuel much more efficiently. Thus you can add more air/fuel than with a 2v head without running into detonation, or you can advance the timing more without detonating. Or both. THus the better quench design enables you to make more power. It is very difficult, if even possible, to match the quench ignition characteristics of a 4v head with a 2v head--Even the Hemi's don't.

I get what you're saying, but it feeds back into the rest of my post. If someone were to make 2v heads more comparable to 4v heads, or at least much better flowing, the higher displacement engine would make more power again. Even if we forget about how many camshafts or valves there are, its still the same principle. Put a 3.4 DOHC against a N*. You do the same mods to either and the N* is going to make more power.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: There's no replacement for displacement, kids. Anything you can do to a 2.0l motor to make it faster you can do to a 6.0l motor to make it faster. Match any 2 engines mod for mod and the higher displacement one, unless its a really crappy motor, is going to come out on top.

You're sidetracking... Everybody knows displacement is better. That's not the point here. The point was - Archie said a 4 cylinder has to rev to make torque (and horsepower). Absolutely not true with boost.

Typically the turbo or SCharged 4's make their numbers at high RPM's & that's fine if you drive at 160 mph all the time. But us Hot Rodders want to from 0 to 100 as fast as possible & that takes a V-8." -Archie

If this is what Archie believes, then that's fine... he can then explain how the Z-28 in the video below got schooled by a 2.2L 8 VALVE TURBO 4 CYLINDER MINIVAN.

http://www.turbovan.net/pauls_van.mpg

Here's the site.
http://www.turbovan.net/van.html

If that wasn't an ignorant opinion, then I'm not sure what is. Archie does great things for the Fiero world, but I'm sure the above video has proven his opinion wrong.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You're sidetracking... Everybody knows displacement is better. That's not the point here. The point was - Archie said a 4 cylinder has to rev to make torque (and horsepower). Absolutely not true with boost.

My most profoundly apathetic apologies. I didn't mean to draw the flame war off course with my relevant comments.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: I get what you're saying, but it feeds back into the rest of my post. If someone were to make 2v heads more comparable to 4v heads, or at least much better flowing, the higher displacement engine would make more power again. Even if we forget about how many camshafts or valves there are, its still the same principle. Put a 3.4 DOHC against a N*. You do the same mods to either and the N* is going to make more power.

I agree, that is what I was trying to say. Unfortunately, there isn't a com[any out there that makes a 2v SBC head that will outflow what a stock LT5 or LQ1 head does, and even if they did, you will never get the ignition characteristics. But yah you're correct in the above statement of course. Good thing the N* heads aren't as good as the 3.4's

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: Now looking at it from another perspective: How much is it going to cost you to make your 4 banger run with a stock 8 anyway?

Less than it takes to buy a V8 that makes 500hp stock.

All that matters is torque at the wheels.
500 ft lbs from 3000 RPM to 6000 RPM is exactly the same as 250 ft lbs from 6000 RPM to 12000 RPM when you gear each appropriately.

I found a dyno chart for a 500 HP Ecotec turbo (really high RPM powerband) and a 500 HP SBC V8 (peak power at like 4500 instead of the Ecotec's 9000). I plugged in the ideal gearing and graphed the torque at the wheels from 0 mph up to like 100 or 120. The only place where the V8 had an advantage was in 1st gear, and that was with the assumption that no slipping of the clutch is allowed.. i.e. both motors start at idle, in gear, with the clutch fully released, and then hit WOT at the same time. The 4-banger guy is obviously going slip the clutch so he can start at the beginning of his powerband.. so they will perform pretty much identically.
Air flow is what it comes down to, whether its provided by boost or just good ol' bore and stroke, all well designed heads, intake, and exhaust of course.
It doesn't matter how many cylinders your motor has.

I agree that Archie's statement is misleading; he is ignoring the fact that we have gearing. Make power at high RPMs? Gear it shorter. End result is the same torque at the wheels as the lower-revving V8.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Simple question: How many top fuel dragsters do you see running anything besides a V8?

I'm pretty sure the rules specify that they can only run V8s.

Hold on, let me reach up & pull the chain again..........

Ok, got it.

Sappy, DOHC_SWAPPER, JohnnyK, SlowIndyFiero, crzyone, Aaron....... You've all been own3d.

Go back to Howard's sewer & tell shaunbag & crybaby howard that you've been own3d by some fat, knuckle dragging old man on PFF.

Someone pass the popcorn.........

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-29-2005).]

What exactly have you own3d? Do you even know what that means?

This is all I have to say.

http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=1C72E471-C49A-4421-8909-68D5C9BB11A9&term=ricer&p=0

-Squishy

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Less than it takes to buy a V8 that makes 500hp stock.

Hmmm.... so now we're up to 500hp then? I didn't realize we had set the bar so high so quickly!

How about an '04 Z06 LS6 @ 405hp for $7395 (the LS7 is not yet available through Pace, although they are talking $14k - which I think is a bit much myself)

OK then... we have a GM EcoTec 2.0L with the Supercharger already attached for $3889.95 - rated @205hp.

Now you're expecting to more than double the stock output of an already supercharged 4 banger (using only brand new parts... as we're not even looking into the "junkyard performance" aspect of either powerplant) for another $3500. Possible? Sure, I'll consider that. But would it be reliable at that output? (the LS6 will be a warrantied daily-driver if need be) Not a chance.

Now if you want to compare junkyard stuff... go right ahead. You can pretty easily build a 500hp Carb'd SBC pretty cheaply and easily on a $50 junkyard 4-bolt block from the past 20 years. Pick up any Car Craft magazine from the past 10 years for help on that. As for a turbo 4: oddly enough I get Sport Compact magazines as well... and they'd be happy to surpass 300hp on most of the builds that will run the same cost as a 500hp junkyard smallblock. Sure, if you throw enough money at your skyline or supra - you can achieve 1000hp... but let's at least keep it real

This has been some interesting reading. I'm just amazed at times how easy it is for people to get on here and spout about engine swap combos when they have had ZERO experience with said combo.

Speaking with experience (see sig), if I'm going to pick one of my cars that I want to take out and seriously spank any comers, the beast will be my choice, everytime.

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Yes, you can get good power out of a smaller engine. That typically trades off displacement for engine speed. Less power, just spin it faster. Take the Honda S2000 engine, for example. Highly refined engine, great horsepower for it's size and very little torque. You have to drive it like you hate it to get it to perform up to it's capability.

Top Gear had a great example of the weakness of all these highly tuned small engines. They were testing a 400HP 2.0L Evo (forgot which model). If you weren't in exactly the right gear, you had no power. A P.O.S. econo box could blow it's doors off if you fell off the boost.

Some people like that. Some of us don't want to wind our engines up like an 8 day clock to get power. Some of us like power the instant we hit the throttle - regardless of what gear we're in. That's just not done with a small, high rpm engine.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: My most profoundly apathetic apologies. I didn't mean to draw the flame war off course with my relevant comments.

Apology accepted.

Lets just agree to disagree here... Everybody is right. Archie is/was probably thinking NA only, but you can have a 4 cylinder making full power by 2000rpm. Full power could mean 500lb/ft..

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Apology accepted. Lets just agree to disagree here... Everybody is right. Archie is/was probably thinking NA only, but you can have a 4 cylinder making full power by 2000rpm. Full power could mean 500lb/ft..

Well it's not in his best interest to say "You know what, v8's aren't the greatest engine swap for a Fiero these days"..

True.

Sorry to all i know this is not really any of my business..i am not picking any sides..but i think we r getting alot off track...

Now the thing is this war will never end..Why u ask...this is like saying apples r the thing as a brick

V8 can be made to do a ton of different thing,,the power band can be real low or real high

4 cylinder can also be made to do different thing as well...a turbo is just not for top end power u can have a turbo charged 4 cylinder with a crap load of torque under 4000 rpms and pulls just as hard as V8

Proof? i drive a turbo 4 ford transvan europe model,,max rpm on this van is 4000rpm and i do race BMW on the stoplight and if is funny as hell when i drive right pass the car i am racing untill their upper power band kicks and then they pass

What i am say is there is SO MANY VARIABLES to look at ....u can say F1 is the same as a dirt track car,,(opps me bad,yes they both have 4 wheels and a engine)

This war will never end because there IS NOT a answer

quote Originally posted by ducattiman: Sorry to all i know this is not really any of my business..i am not picking any sides..but i think we r getting alot off track... Now the thing is this war will never end..Why u ask...this is like saying apples r the thing as a brick V8 can be made to do a ton of different thing,,the power band can be real low or real high 4 cylinder can also be made to do different thing as well...a turbo is just not for top end power u can have a turbo charged 4 cylinder with a crap load of torque under 4000 rpms and pulls just as hard as V8 Proof? i drive a turbo 4 ford transvan europe model,,max rpm on this van is 4000rpm and i do race BMW on the stoplight and if is funny as hell when i drive right pass the car i am racing untill their upper power band kicks and then they pass What i am say is there is SO MANY VARIABLES to look at ....u can say F1 is the same as a dirt track car,,(opps me bad,yes they both have 4 wheels and a engine) This war will never end because there IS NOT a answer

Yes. But I Think the original point of this post was asking why someone who is in the business of selling engines would say something so ridiculously untrue.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Yes. But I Think the original point of this post was asking why someone who is in the business of selling engines would say something so ridiculously untrue.

You yourself have answered this... He sells V8's and V8 kits. Most of his business is in selling kits. Now he is putting V8's in solstices. It would make sense for him to think and/or convince others that V8s rule, otherwise his business would suffer.

So, the original question has been answered. "Why did he post this?", well now you know. Problem solved. Case closed. This thread can die peacefully now.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Yes. But I Think the original point of this post was asking why someone who is in the business of selling engines would say something so ridiculously untrue.

IMHO, the original point of this post was to start a flame war, which it has done.....

i cant answer for Archie...

But like the old saying go's

What might be right for 1 , might be wrong for the other

it does not mean 1 has to be right and the other is wrong or verse visa

funny thing is this is a forum and Archie have every dam right to say WHAT HE BELIEVES IN..he is not right nor wrong

and if some one else believes in some thing different then it is also that persons right to believe in what he thinks..

but i think there is too many STOM WIJF's trying to prove that their way is right or better then the others..

NEWS FLASH BOYS AND GIRLS THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER

[This message has been edited by ducattiman (edited 12-29-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: The highest n/a HP 4 cyl that I can think of right now is the S2000 at 230 or 240.

Since you keep bringing up the Honda S2000:

A 2003 Honda S2000 is 240hp and 153 ft/lbs of torque, Does 0-60 in 6.3 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.9.

A 1990 Camaro IROC has 240 hp and 345 ft/lbs of torque 5.7L V-8
It does 0-60 in 5.8 and the 1/4 mile in 14.4
(Used a 1990 Camaro as it has the same hp as the S2000 and wanted to keep the comparison as close as possible.)

The Camaro being a heavier car with a the same horsepower is faster in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile because of the torque difference and the power curve being lower in the RPM range. The higher torque levels in the lower RPM range is what Archie was referring to. Most hot rodders prefer the gobs of low-end torque feel that the V-8 provides. A forced induction 4 cyl is not going to have the same level of torque at the lower RPM's nor will it have the low-end torque feel of a V-8.
True a built 4-cyl can have the same torque/horsepower as a V-8 But the power curve will be higher in the RPM range. In 1/4 mile times, they may also be very close as well. But the V-8 with the higher torque at the lower RPM will have faster times in the first half of the 1/4 mile run and the 4-cyl will have faster times during the second half.
This was also shown in the "towing" thread where at 2500 rpm the 400hp SRT 4 only had around 140 ft/lbs of torque where the V-8 had almost 300ft/lbs even though the peak torque was the same. Just the V-8 had it peaked at 3200rpm and the SRT4 peak torque was near 4500 rpm.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 12-29-2005).]

All I know is I run a little 3800 Supercharged V6 with a 4T65E-HD transaxle and do a 0 to 60 feet in1.497 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 11.460 and I haven't seen any street driven Fiero beat that including Fiero-X.No talk,just FACT.How's that for a smake down?

Don

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Too Far
60' - 1.497 sec
1/4 mi - 11.460 sec
mph - 116.08

quote Originally posted by Oreif: A forced induction 4 cyl is not going to have the same level of torque at the lower RPM's nor will it have the low-end torque feel of a V-8. True a built 4-cyl can have the same torque/horsepower as a V-8 But the power curve will be higher in the RPM range.

ahhhh! Stop making poor generalizations!! If you put a tiny quick spooling turbo on a 4 cylinder, you can have 300 lb ft of torque at 1500 RPM!!!! It will fall on it's face like a 350TPI at 4400rpm, but it will make MASSIVE torque at LOW RPM!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So, what are you trying to say?

You must have snuck a look.
I was just trying to get in before it hit the trash.

quote Originally posted by Don Kraus: All I know is I run a little 3800 Supercharged V6 with a 4T65E-HD transaxle and do a 0 to 60 feet in1.497 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 11.460 and I haven't seen any street driven Fiero beat that including Fiero-X.No talk,just FACT.How's that for a smake down?

Eh... seen it posted before

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Since you keep bringing up the Honda S2000: A 2003 Honda S2000 is 240hp and 153 ft/lbs of torque, Does 0-60 in 6.3 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.9. A 1990 Camaro IROC has 240 hp and 345 ft/lbs of torque 5.7L V-8 It does 0-60 in 5.8 and the 1/4 mile in 14.4 (Used a 1990 Camaro as it has the same hp as the S2000 and wanted to keep the comparison as close as possible.) The Camaro being a heavier car with a the same horsepower is faster in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile because of the torque difference and the power curve being lower in the RPM range. The higher torque levels in the lower RPM range is what Archie was referring to. Most hot rodders prefer the gobs of low-end torque feel that the V-8 provides. A forced induction 4 cyl is not going to have the same level of torque at the lower RPM's nor will it have the low-end torque feel of a V-8. True a built 4-cyl can have the same torque/horsepower as a V-8 But the power curve will be higher in the RPM range. In 1/4 mile times, they may also be very close as well. But the V-8 with the higher torque at the lower RPM will have faster times in the first half of the 1/4 mile run and the 4-cyl will have faster times during the second half. This was also shown in the "towing" thread where at 2500 rpm the 400hp SRT 4 only had around 140 ft/lbs of torque where the V-8 had almost 300ft/lbs even though the peak torque was the same. Just the V-8 had it peaked at 3200rpm and the SRT4 peak torque was near 4500 rpm.

I believe you have your "facts" incorrect. Motor Trend ran their Honda S2000, 240hp 153tq, to 5.8 second 0-60 and a 14.2 @ 98.1. This can be found at http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_9911_hondas20/index2.html

Have you driven an S2000? I have. They are not very impressive off the line, but this is not because of their engine. Their tires don't spin much off the line, the car hooks up and the motor bogs. I will guarantee you that from a 20mph roll the Camaro will get beat. However from a standstill, it will take the S2k some time to catch up. So assuming your facts are correct, what are the trap speeds of both?

Like somebody said though, a 4cyl can be made to drive just like a V8, it is all in tuning of the intake/exhaust tracts. The reason most choose to go intot he higher RPM is because they can, their heads can flow that much, and VE increases, so they get more airflow. As GM has realized they need more power, they move their motors up in the RPM range to get it.