I'm suprised that nobody replied to my original post... I guess it's pretty demoralizing watching a potential v8 engine swap get whipped by a Turbocharged, 4 cylinder Chrysler minivan.

To get some of the misinformation out of the way about the ecotec supercharged, if you travel henceforth to www.cobaltss.net you will see that people are dynoing the supposed 205hp Ecotec Supercharged at 230 hp at the wheels, STOCK. That means, with the 15% drivetrain loss factor, 264 hp at the crank is being achieved.

Now I'm no V8 Hater, but I can't stand seeing how one track minded some of the people are on this forum... most of you who speak ill about 4 cylinder potential have never tried to mod one sucessfully.

I'm glad that some members here feel the right to keep comments like Archie's in check, and do so accordingly.

------------------
2006 Cobalt SS Supercharged

quote Originally posted by Leafy: Now I'm no V8 Hater, but I can't stand seeing how one track minded some of the people are on this forum... most of you who speak ill about 4 cylinder potential have never tried to mod one sucessfully.

I've never "spoken ill" of 4 cylinder cars or engines - I have seen what they are capable of. But as for people on this forum - how many people do you see modding 4 bangers for Fieros? Can probably count them on one hand. Until someone comes up with a straightforward and simple EcoTec swap for the Fiero, it will remain a V6 & V8 world around here (at least when it comes to performance).

quote I'm glad that some members here feel the right to keep comments like Archie's in check, and do so accordingly.

So... Archie isn't allowed his own opinion because he runs a V8 Fiero-based business?

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: So... Archie isn't allowed his own opinion because he runs a V8 Fiero-based business?

That or he isn't allowed his own opinion because it's different from someone elses.

Archie, why would I care to read a lot of bullshit? I have better things to do than read about the size of these people's cocks, their ideas for possibilities to why I posted, or anything else that has nothing to do with my post. You are doing the same damn thing I told you not to, and that was assume. How is my quote out of context? I dont care if you put the boosted 4 cylinder and the V8 in the same car....0-100 mph still...to this very post, makes no sense. That was and is my point. If you don't like making sense, then I guess this is done.

Archie, it seems to me your solstice is not setup properly if that is boosted and your goal was to not have to rev it up to have power. Either you are telling me a worthless story about a non boosted 4 cylinder which again, has no relevance to the quote, or you suck at setting up a boosted motor for the powerband that you love (0-100 mph was it?) Ill make this easy. Nevermind man, just never you mind about my question. It was way over your head and too hard for you to comprehend. Hell, it was over a lot of people's heads around here.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: What math is that? First How are you converting the force of 300 ft/lbs from just a PSI difference? Force is pressure movement. Second, The Ecotec 2.2 you use as a reference has 10.5:1 compression and a cylinder bore of 3.5" and a stroke of 3.46". Normally aspirated produces about 160 psi during ignition. Now in order to get 300 ft/lbs of force requires about 342 psi during ignition. At 10.5 compression ratio that is 33.5 psi of boost. In my original post I used 9.0:1 because I didn't look up the actual compression ratio of the engine. Try using real math instead of theoretical calculations.

I guess going from 170 ft-lb @ 4500rpm to 350ft-lb @ same on "only" 10psi is impossible by your math, then?

Just to reverse calculate - "my math" says this would take 15.6psi.

quote Originally posted by SappySE107: Archie, why would I care to read a lot of bullshit? I have better things to do than read about the size of these people's cocks, their ideas for possibilities to why I posted, or anything else that has nothing to do with my post. You are doing the same damn thing I told you not to, and that was assume. How is my quote out of context? I dont care if you put the boosted 4 cylinder and the V8 in the same car....0-100 mph still...to this very post, makes no sense. That was and is my point. If you don't like making sense, then I guess this is done. Archie, it seems to me your solstice is not setup properly if that is boosted and your goal was to not have to rev it up to have power. Either you are telling me a worthless story about a non boosted 4 cylinder which again, has no relevance to the quote, or you suck at setting up a boosted motor for the powerband that you love (0-100 mph was it?) Ill make this easy. Nevermind man, just never you mind about my question. It was way over your head and too hard for you to comprehend. Hell, it was over a lot of people's heads around here.

Hi kids! Todays phrase is "reading comprehension!"

This thread makes my head hurt

------------------

88GT 3.4SC
88GT T-TOP
87GT VERT (build in progress)
www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/053203.html

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I guess going from 170 ft-lb @ 4500rpm to 350ft-lb @ same on "only" 10psi is impossible by your math, then? Just to reverse calculate - "my math" says this would take 15.6psi.

Uh, You said at 2000 rpm, Please quit changing the parameters to fit your side. The graph shows peak torque at 4500 rpm on a larger displacement 6-cyl, Not a 4-cyl.
Force is weight/pressure moving. So the higher the RPM the weight/pressure is moving faster.

Every time you try to prove your point, You change the parameters. How about keeping things equal?

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 12-30-2005).]

I know where this thread is heading.

quote I know where this thread is heading.

I agree! (as "TAPS" plays in the background)

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Uh, You said at 2000 rpm, Please quit changing the parameters to fit your side. The graph shows peak torque at 4500 rpm on a larger displacement 6-cyl, Not a 4-cyl.

Question time!

HP is directly related to Torque. True or false? (true)
Doubling the HP at one RPM will double the torque. True or false? (true)

If you double the HP at one RPM, this means you have to have roughly double the fuel and air. True or false? (true)

Therefore - if you double the torque at one RPM, you still have to roughly double the fuel and air. Put an engine in a chamber pressurized to 2 atmospheres and it will ROUGHLY DOUBLE THE AIR INTAKE.
Which in the case of the 2.2L ecotec making 140 ft-lb at 2000rpm, would mean making 280ft-lb at 1 bar of boost

Maybe I'm wrong? Somebody show a ecotec running 15psi at 2000rpm. Problem is everyone wants more high end torque, not low end, so they put a turbo that doesn't make any boost at 2000rpm. What can I say?

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: So... Archie isn't allowed his own opinion because he runs a V8 Fiero-based business?

There's nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion, he has a right to... the fact of the matter is, what was taken from his statement was that 4 cylinders can't do what 8 cylinders can. Rob, the video before showed that he is wrong.

That is what I mean by narrowmindedness.

As far as 4 cylinders in a Fiero go, you're right... but the Fiero is a 20 year old car, which means that the majority of people who own a Fiero remember the days when the small block was king... unfortunately they continue with that mentality in ignorance and figure that it's the only way to attain REAL power.

It is not the only way.

------------------
2006 Cobalt SS Supercharged

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Question time! HP is directly related to Torque. True or false? (true)

Partially true, Horsepower is torque times RPM/5252. So if you increase peak torque OR RPM you will increase peak horsepower.
Horsepower is a factor of torque/RPM. Torque is NOT a factor of horsepower.

1 horsepower = 33,000 ft/lbs over 1 minute to move 1 foot.
.......................(torque)..............(RPM)...........(/5252)

If it is still confusing read this:
http://www.web-cars.com/math/horsepower.html

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Doubling the HP at one RPM will double the torque. True or false? (true)

False, You can keep torque the same just increase it's peak RPM and thus increase horsepower.

Example: An engine with 200 ft/lbs @ 3000 RPM will have 152 hp.
Same engine with 200 ft/lbs @ 4000 RPM will have 190hp
Move the torque up to say 6000 rpm (like the ecotec) and you now have 266hp.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: If you double the HP at one RPM, this means you have to have roughly double the fuel and air. True or false? (true)

False, Because horsepower is NOT a function of air/fuel (see torque example above.)

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Therefore - if you double the torque at one RPM, you still have to roughly double the fuel and air. Put an engine in a chamber pressurized to 2 atmospheres and it will ROUGHLY DOUBLE THE AIR INTAKE. Which in the case of the 2.2L ecotec making 140 ft-lb at 2000rpm, would mean making 280ft-lb at 1 bar of boost

Boost is PSI. That is Pounds Per Square Inch of pressure. A 2.2L Ecotec has 43.96 sqaure inches of piston surface (10.99 for each piston * 4 cylinders) So at 10 PSI you have 439 lbs or 109 pounds on each piston. This does NOT indicate the pressure of the cylinder as now the cylinder compresses the 10 psi of air/fuel by a ratio of 10.5 to 1 (in terms of the Ecotec) Then the mixture is ignited and the explosive force is applied to the face of the pistons.

Double the air/fuel does not double the power as compressing the mixture is exponential (sp?) in relation to explosive force. This is why an intercooler increases power without actually adding in more air/fuel mixture. The explosive force of the mixture is increased by the cooler air.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Double the air/fuel does not double the power as compressing the mixture is exponential (sp?) in relation to explosive force. This is why an intercooler increases power without actually adding in more air/fuel mixture. The explosive force of the mixture is increased by the cooler air.

but you are adding in more air and more fuel, the intercooler cools the air which makes it denser. The computer compensates by adding more fuel

never mind I will just stay in my corner. (I love my car even if it does have a big old heavy V8 in it)

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Hi kids! Todays phrase is "reading comprehension!"

You know, you buy 'em books, you send them to school, you teach them everything you know & they still don't know nothin'.

Sappy, you're an idiot, you might just as well drop out of school now.

Oh wait, they won't let 10 year olds drop out.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Leafy: There's nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion, he has a right to... the fact of the matter is, what was taken from his statement was that 4 cylinders can't do what 8 cylinders can. Rob, the video before showed that he is wrong. That is what I mean by narrowmindedness. As far as 4 cylinders in a Fiero go, you're right... but the Fiero is a 20 year old car, which means that the majority of people who own a Fiero remember the days when the small block was king... unfortunately they continue with that mentality in ignorance and figure that it's the only way to attain REAL power. It is not the only way.

.......to actually compare apples to apples you really should be comparing N/A to N/A and boosted to boosted.......

Wait a minute now... now you're the one changing things.

My question: "Doubling the HP at one RPM will double the torque. True or false? (true)"

quote Originally posted by Oreif: False, You can keep torque the same just increase it's peak RPM and thus increase horsepower.

Note that I said at ONE RPM. If the rpm stays the same, doubling the HP by your equation, must double the torque.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: False, Because horsepower is NOT a function of air/fuel (see torque example above.)

Wow. I don't know where to start with this one... I guess I'll just say that each gallon of fuel only has so much energy in it. Burning it converts that chemical to thermal energy. The engine turns that thermal energy into mechanical energy. Energy in = energy out. By definition, to get more power out the crank, you need to release more energy by burning more gas. Burning more gas requires taking in more air to get the optimum temperature increase (without burning the pistons up)

Torque is instantaneous. Horsepower is energy per second. Energy in per second = energy out per second.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by jsmorter1: but you are adding in more air and more fuel, the intercooler cools the air which makes it denser. The computer compensates by adding more fuel

Actually it doesn't "add" more it makes the charge denser thus increases the explosive force. Technically there are more molicules but the charge is still the same size/pressure.

quote Originally posted by Archie: You know, you buy 'em books, you send them to school, you teach them everything you know & they still don't know nothin'. Sappy, you're an idiot, you might just as well drop out of school now. Oh wait, they won't let 10 year olds drop out. Archie

Thats the best you can offer me for a reason you made your statement? You attack me. Very sad archie, very sad. Are you judging me by my post count or are you just calling me an idiot because you don't want to deal with the retarded comment you made?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Wait a minute now... now you're the one changing things. My question: "Doubling the HP at one RPM will double the torque. True or false? (true)" quote Originally posted by Oreif: False, You can keep torque the same just increase it's peak RPM and thus increase horsepower. Note that I said at ONE RPM. If the rpm stays the same, doubling the HP by your equation, must double the torque.

OK yes if you double the torque at ONE RPM you will double the Horsepower. The Torque is what needs to be increased in order to increase the horsepower.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: quote Originally posted by Oreif: False, Because horsepower is NOT a function of air/fuel (see torque example above.) Wow. I don't know where to start with this one... I guess I'll just say that each gallon of fuel only has so much energy in it. Burning it converts that chemical to thermal energy. The engine turns that thermal energy into mechanical energy. Energy in = energy out. By definition, to get more power out the crank, you need to release more energy by burning more gas. Burning more gas requires taking in more air to get the optimum temperature increase (without burning the pistons up)

The full question was:
If you double the HP at one RPM, this means you have to have roughly double the fuel and air. True or false? (true)

Horsepower being doubled doesn't mean you NEED double the air/fuel and the energy release of the air/fuel is not a 1 to 1 ratio with the amount of horsepower. So the question is FALSE. The energy of the burning mixture creates force and even so is not 1 to 1 with the amount mixture. You may only need 1.5 times the mixture to double the force since the amount of mixture in a compressed form has an exponential release of energy.

If we go by your original question, A 100 hp engine will use exactly half the fuel that a 200 hp engine would use. (Which is NOT correct.)
If you take a normally aspirated 2.2L engine of 150 hp, Install a turbo, Tune it and get 300hp out of it, It will not use twice the fuel. Yes it will use more, But not twice the amount.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Wait a minute now... now you're the one changing things. My question: "Doubling the HP at one RPM will double the torque. True or false? (true)" Wow. I don't know where to start with this one... I guess I'll just say that each gallon of fuel only has so much energy in it. Burning it converts that chemical to thermal energy. The engine turns that thermal energy into mechanical energy. Energy in = energy out. By definition, to get more power out the crank, you need to release more energy by burning more gas. Burning more gas requires taking in more air to get the optimum temperature increase (without burning the pistons up) Torque is instantaneous. Horsepower is energy per second. Energy in per second = energy out per second.

you can increase horsepower with the same air/fuel by increasing efficiency, 4stroke engines are usually only 20-30% efficient so the air/fuel mixture put in actually has more energy than the mechanical energy created by the motor. So it doesnt always take more air/fuel to increase horsepower.

but i think you are correct about only needing around 15PSI to get 300ft/lbs torque from that motor, by boosting it at 15PSI you are doubling its displacement so if you have 140ft/lbs with 2.4L then you have about 58.3ft/lbs per liter and if you multiply that by 4.8L(double the displacement) then you get 280ft/lbs, though it will probably be a little higher than 280 since you dont have as much efficiency loss on the boosted power.

quote Originally posted by leafy: There's nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion, he has a right to... the fact of the matter is, what was taken from his statement was that 4 cylinders can't do what 8 cylinders can. Rob, the video before showed that he is wrong.

4 cylinders can't do what 8 cylinders can, show me a 4 cylinder that makes 8,000 horsepower

quote Originally posted by jsmorter1: but you are adding in more air and more fuel, the intercooler cools the air which makes it denser. The computer compensates by adding more fuel

The intercooler is used more to prevent detonation than it is to make the air denser, after air leaves a hot turbocharger it will be very hot and it will detonate when in compression because its heated even further to the point of ignition, so an intercooler brings the air temp back down to stop it from detonating

[This message has been edited by EightBall (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Horsepower being doubled doesn't mean you NEED double the air/fuel and the energy release of the air/fuel is not a 1 to 1 ratio with the amount of horsepower. So the question is FALSE.

You're right, my fault. I was assuming efficiency was the same between the two. But the fact remains - You can get damn close to twice the horsepower output if you are pumping in 15psi.

In short:
Ecotec = 140lb-ft @ 2000.
Ecotec +15psi = 280+lb-ft @ 2000.

No need for 44 psi and exotic components. boosted 4 cylinders can have just as much torque off the line as a NA V8. Yes, it's cheating. Yes, the 4 cylinder will explode first. Yes, it's not a fair comparison. But it's the truth.

quote Originally posted by SappySE107: Thats the best you can offer me for a reason you made your statement? You attack me. Very sad archie, very sad. Are you judging me by my post count or are you just calling me an idiot because you don't want to deal with the retarded comment you made?

I'm calling you an idiot because you never read the thread you took my quote from. IF YOU HAD READ THAT THREAD you'd see that the Solstice I was talking about was a stock new Solstice with less than 100 miles on it.

Also all those posts THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO READ in this thread also tried to tell you that you had the facts wrong. But your too stupid to read it.

That makes you a stupid idiot.

My work is done here.

Thanks for your input.

Archie

quote Originally posted by EightBall: 4 cylinders can't do what 8 cylinders can, show me a 4 cylinder that makes 8,000 horsepower

Show me a Fiero with a V8 That makes 8000 horsepower, if you want to get technical.

quote Originally posted by Leafy: Show me a Fiero with a V8 That makes 8000 horsepower, if you want to get technical.

I wasnt talking fieros I was talking engines. But in the case of a fiero, you find a 4cyl fiero and ill find a V8 fiero that makes more power than it

quote Originally posted by Archie: That makes you a stupid idiot.

lol that gave me a good laugh for some reason

quote Originally posted by EightBall: But in the case of a fiero, you find a 4cyl fiero and ill find a V8 fiero that makes more power than it

Bryson. 396 RWHP. That's ~455 HP at the crank.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: In short: Ecotec = 140lb-ft @ 2000. Ecotec +15psi = 280+lb-ft @ 2000. No need for 44 psi and exotic components. boosted 4 cylinders can have just as much torque off the line as a NA V8. Yes, it's cheating. Yes, the 4 cylinder will explode first. Yes, it's not a fair comparison. But it's the truth.

The problem with that is in order to get 15PSI boost at 2000rpm you would have to have a pretty small turbo that would put a lot of backpressure on the motor at higher rpms. So you could get 280ft/lbs at 2000rpm but it would have no top end power. I dont doubt that a 4cyl can beat a V8 but its a lot easier to make a V8 go faster, mod for mod the higher diplacement motor will always win. Mopar performance has a 2.2L 4 banger that puts out 1000+ horsepower, but thats really at the top of its potential and would cost a lot of money; a V8 would be a lot easier and less expensive to get 1000HP out of

quote Originally posted by Leafy: Show me a Fiero with a V8 That makes 8000 horsepower, if you want to get technical.

Hey take a gander at the 1/4 mile thread and see which fiero is on top and whats powering it.

------------------
HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

Thank you to FIEROPHREK for reminding me of that thread

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Bryson. 396 RWHP. That's ~455 HP at the crank.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/034445.html i believe Tina's SBC has around 600hp

[This message has been edited by EightBall (edited 12-30-2005).]

quote Originally posted by EightBall: The problem with that is in order to get 15PSI boost at 2000rpm you would have to have a pretty small turbo that would put a lot of backpressure on the motor at higher rpms. So you could get 280ft/lbs at 2000rpm but it would have no top end power. I dont doubt that a 4cyl can beat a V8 but its a lot easier to make a V8 go faster, mod for mod the higher diplacement motor will always win. Mopar performance has a 2.2L 4 banger that puts out 1000+ horsepower, but thats really at the top of its potential and would cost a lot of money; a V8 would be a lot easier and less expensive to get 1000HP out of

Thank you. That's exactly what I said back on page 1.

-Never said 4 cylinders are better
-Never said displacement doesn't matter
-Never said an I4 won't explode at 1000hp
...
All I said, was it's possible for a 4 cylinder to make v8-level bone-crushing torque, off idle.

No point in arguing with idiots...just makes me look worse. Peace

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Thank you. That's exactly what I said back on page 1. -Never said 4 cylinders are better -Never said displacement doesn't matter -Never said an I4 won't explode at 1000hp ... All I said, was it's possible for a 4 cylinder to make v8-level bone-crushing torque, off idle.

Well then I agree with you, a 4 cylinder can be built to make huge torque at low rpms

hahaha, this is the best thread ever woo!

quote Originally posted by EightBall: Thank you to FIEROPHREK for reminding me of that thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/034445.html i believe Tina's SBC has around 600hp

I believe Tina has NO CLUE how much power her car has. So she broke an axle. My Z34 grenaded a Getrag 284, and it only has 218hp. She ran an 11.6. Well that is a good 1/4mi no doubt, 600hp has the power to weight to get into the 10s without a problem. Her Fiero has better traction characteristics (Something about a iron V8 sitting atop the rear wheels), than a 500hp Z06 Corvette, and the Corvette is faster. I believe all the evidence shows her Fiero isn't even making 500. And while my estimations are just a guess based upon her times, what are your guesses of 600 based on?

If she is aloud to claim 600 with hers, then I claim 300 out of my Fiero. I ran a 16.1, so I could have 300hp easy right? Find my a dynosheet of a SBC in a Fiero making more than 455hp, then you can quote numbers that are true.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: I believe Tina has NO CLUE how much power her car has. So she broke an axle. My Z34 grenaded a Getrag 284, and it only has 218hp. She ran an 11.6. Well that is a good 1/4mi no doubt, 600hp has the power to weight to get into the 10s without a problem. Her Fiero has better traction characteristics (Something about a iron V8 sitting atop the rear wheels), than a 500hp Z06 Corvette, and the Corvette is faster. I believe all the evidence shows her Fiero isn't even making 500. And while my estimations are just a guess based upon her times, what are your guesses of 600 based on? If she is aloud to claim 600 with hers, then I claim 300 out of my Fiero. I ran a 16.1, so I could have 300hp easy right? Find my a dynosheet of a SBC in a Fiero making more than 455hp, then you can quote numbers that are true.

Im not gonna argue it, someone posted that she had 600hp and I took it as fact, maybe she doesnt, big whoop.

Alright, well so far the little 2.3l 4 cylinder is making the most power in a Fiero on here, or that we know of.

And even if someone posts a dyno higher, he MOST CERTAINLY has them owned in horsepower per liter.

So you took it as fact, repeated it, and say big whoop at the fact that its not fact. Fiero.nl represent!

what is the argument about now?

give me a topic and ill arue with you, but right now I dont get what the point is?

edit: this was to Aaron, I dont really want to talk to you Sappy

[This message has been edited by EightBall (edited 12-31-2005).]