""Typically the turbo or SCharged 4's make their numbers at high RPM's & that's fine if you drive at 160 mph all the time. But us Hot Rodders want to from 0 to 100 as fast as possible & that takes a V-8."
That is what archie said. All I wanted to know is why you would make such an ignorant statement. 160 mph? 0-100 takes a V8 to be the fastest possible? Explain please, cause I can't make a bit of sense out of your statement. Could have just replied in your other thread with your reasoning but you told me to make this thread so here it is. I hope you have the courtesy of replying since I followed your request.
------------------ Ben www.60degreev6.com
IP: Logged
10:29 AM
PFF
System Bot
John Boelte Member
Posts: 1012 From: Indianapolis, IN, USA Registered: Jun 2002
Originally posted by SappySE107: That is what archie said. All I wanted to know is why you would make such an ignorant statement. 160 mph? 0-100 takes a V8 to be the fastest possible? Explain please, cause I can't make a bit of sense out of your statement. Could have just replied in your other thread with your reasoning but you told me to make this thread so here it is. I hope you have the courtesy of replying since I followed your request.
That is what you said. All I want to know is why you would ask such an ignorant question? Explain please, cause I can't make a bit of sense out of your question. You could have just replied that you prefer a V6, but you decided to do this instead. I hope you have the courtesy of not stating your opinion as fact.
IP: Logged
11:23 AM
Paul Prince Member
Posts: 2935 From: Kansas City, MO Registered: Dec 2002
Archie is simply saying that DOHC Inline 4's make peak power and torque at a higher RPM than a V8 with the same HP, and given the weight of a Fiero, the V8 would out accelerate the 4 in a 0-100 or quarter mile test.
This is not to say that this is an absolute truth, but generally or "typically" yes it is...........Paul
[This message has been edited by Paul Prince (edited 12-28-2005).]
IP: Logged
11:51 AM
cunninghamsean Member
Posts: 876 From: Dahlgren, VA Registered: Jan 2002
SappySE107 has a legit question. I myself prefer V-8s but my buddies 4 cylinder turbo dodge eats them alive at the track all the time. Notice I said at the track were 0-100 is real important. People forget that it is not just the engine; gearing has more to do with it than just the size of the motor. A high revving small engine matched with the proper gearing has no problem keeping up. Keep in mind you still have to have enough motor to get the vehicle moving. Although if you want that push you back in the seat torque stick with the V-8.
Don't read a lot into what Archie wrote. We all defend what we like. It is not worth arguing over.
Wow....just wow. Please tell me where you come up with V6s from what I have said in 1 post. Please tell me how you can not question that 4 cylinders aren't good unless you drive around doing 160 mph, or that you need a V8 to go the fastest 0-100. There was no reference to powerband, which is why I was compelled to ask the question.
I am waiting for archie to reply, not his lackies that really aren't worth my time. I do thank the last 2 posters though, as that is the wording I would have expected from someone of his credibility. However that is not what I read coming from him.
If you think im trying to make archie look bad, perhaps you need to consider just how hard you are trying to make him look good. I have no interest in how he "looks" to the community. Im just interested to know how someone of his fame could post such an ignorant statement, which is exactly what it was. Perhaps ignorant is a harsh word, but I lack a better word to describe it.
I am waiting for archie to reply, not his lackies that really aren't worth my time. I do thank the last 2 posters though, as that is the wording I would have expected from someone of his credibility. However that is not what I read coming from him.
If you think im trying to make archie look bad, perhaps you need to consider just how hard you are trying to make him look good. I have no interest in how he "looks" to the community. Im just interested to know how someone of his fame could post such an ignorant statement, which is exactly what it was. Perhaps ignorant is a harsh word, but I lack a better word to describe it.
You lack tact and common sense.
You posted in his thread, then posted this new topic - simply to start an arguement, not to "clarify" any existing questions. Why is it that so many goons think they have to prove themselves against Archie?
Someone of his "fame" or his "credibility"? (your words) You are putting him on quite a high pedistel with words like that... he's not a celebrity, he's a normal guy (whom you've obviously never met or spoken to in person) who makes a living putting V8's in Fieros. That's it. It's that simple.
You say you're not trying to make him "look bad" - yet that's clearly the intention of your post. You are then merely nitpicking his wording in an attempt to provoke him... you know exactly what he means.
Anyone who supports Archie and or his opinion is his lackie? So you're what then... just another e-thug follower from RFT?
<shakes head> I hate it when people try to disguise their intentions as questions...
IP: Logged
01:13 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by SappySE107: Please tell me how you can not question that 4 cylinders aren't good unless you drive around doing 160 mph, or that you need a V8 to go the fastest 0-100. There was no reference to powerband, which is why I was compelled to ask the question.
I am waiting for archie to reply, not his lackies that really aren't worth my time. I do thank the last 2 posters though, as that is the wording I would have expected from someone of his credibility. However that is not what I read coming from him.
If you think im trying to make archie look bad, perhaps you need to consider just how hard you are trying to make him look good. I have no interest in how he "looks" to the community. Im just interested to know how someone of his fame could post such an ignorant statement, which is exactly what it was. Perhaps ignorant is a harsh word, but I lack a better word to describe it.
You may consider me a lackey and not worth your time, but my first reply asking about your "ignorant" question was to point out that you're post is worded to start an argument. You don't want an answer to your question, IMO. You want to say Archie is ignorant and anyone who agrees with him is ignorant.
I personally am not trying to make Archie look good or bad. He doesn't need me for a spokesperson. But I will point out what appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to start an argument by someone who clearly doesn't prefer V8 engines. You are allowed your opinion. Perhaps you can allow others the same?
Unless I've completely misread your original post and the 60degreeV6 reference really means you hate all V6 engines and have no interest at all in them. Please tell me if that's the case.
Hey, "Archie" asked to him to start a new thread. What "Archie" said was really an ignorant statement. Step into the 1990s and realize the "V8" aint what it used to be. Its not an opinion its a fact.
Whats with the attitude that "a junkyard V8 is the ultimate engine" on this board?
[This message has been edited by DOHC_SWAPPER (edited 12-28-2005).]
yes, specifically to keep this kind of Bull**** out of his thread.
quote
What "Archie" said was really an ignorant statement.
Not at all... it was (and is) his own personal opinion... simple as that.
quote
Step into the 1990s and realize the "V8" aint what it used to be. Its not an opinion its a fact.
Correct... it's better now than it ever has been in it's long history! The LS series V8 is a superior piece of engineering... hence it's widespread use in racing of nearly every form.
quote
Whats with the attitude that "a junkyard V8 is the ultimate engine" on this board?
When did anyone say anything about Junkyard parts? When did anyone say that the V8 (or any engine for that matter) was "the ultimate"? Quite simply you're just making stuff up now...
[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 12-28-2005).]
your ultimate engine is whatever you want it to be. bada bing. theres a guy here in tucson putting two motorcyle engines in his, for him, thats his ultimate swap, and i think its pretty bad ass. i think its badass to pop the decklid and see "Corvette" on the engine, i think is badass to pop it and see a big ol blower sitting on top. i also happen to think its pretty freakin sweet to pop my decklid and see "Quad 4", and id love to have one that says "Twin Dual Cam". Im a fan of all swaps, and they all have ups and downs. you want hardcore 0-60 or 0-100? a v8 is a great way to go, its not the only way, but a great one. Power made easy via V8-Archie, or Loyde from Fast Fieros, or Darth, or any of the other regular swappers. a swap is as much apart of personality as it is power. you shouldnt go around hating on ppl just cause they happen to love the v8.
IP: Logged
02:19 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
LoL, yup. Someone got their feelings hurt by archie. V8archie.com" TARGET=_blank>www.V8archie.com . There you have it, a man that makes his living off of V8's. Not quad fours, not L67's, not Superduties, but by stuffing a 4ft^2 motor into a 3ft^2 hole.
quote
Originally Posted by Archie Typically the turbo or SCharged 4's make their numbers at high RPM's & that's fine if you drive at 160 mph all the time. But us Hot Rodders want to from 0 to 100 as fast as possible & that takes a V-8.
The nostalgia of hot rodders is V-8's , plain and simple. The hot rod is the basic minimum, four tires, a seat, a steering wheel, and a big ass motor. He was correct in saying that turbo'd motors make their numbers at high RPMS. Do a 1700 rpm roll in a Turbo'd quad four against an LSX motor. I can gaurantee who's gonna win. (on the same gearing of course)
IP: Logged
02:41 PM
Enterra-BC Member
Posts: 115 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
This SappySE107 is just trying to look cool for his friends at RFT (real fiero Tools) It's funny how they actually worship ppl like shaun (A real moron).
Most ppl overthere will try there hardest to twist things around just to start crap, Most of them are nothing more than word fabricators And they love shoving words in ppl mouths. Anyone that replies negatively against stupid post of there's, Automatically becomes a v8 worshiping lacky in there minds.
I find there ignorance kind of amusing.
IP: Logged
03:08 PM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
sounds like SappySE107 is a previously banned member who has a hardon for archie.
Now, im going to post this statement, Knowing that i dont own a v8 fiero' and that i DO own 4cyl and v6 fiero's and even DOHC 3.4L car's
Ok, what archie is trying to say is that 4cyl's dont make low end torque (subaru's excluded) and high horsepower 4cyl's almost always make their power in the very high RPM bands, IE 6000+ RPM, where most v8's peak there torque around 3200 RPM (notice i said most) like someone stated before, gearing has alot to do with it, but in most cases you have to "spool up" a 4cyl to get it to start moving quickly, where a v8 normally is touch the gas and get planted back in the seat (in the fiero's case anyway) now he was just exaggerating about driving at 160 mph, im pretty sure everyone here over 10 years old caught on about that but you.
after all this is said and done, id like to see someone who has a better 0-60 time than fieroX has had with his 3800 v6.
If i were going to a 1/8th mile race, id rather be in a 300hp SBC powered fiero, rather than a 300HP quad4 fiero, just my opinion, crucify me if iyou will.
matthew
IP: Logged
03:19 PM
v8fiero400 Member
Posts: 963 From: Houston,TX,USA Registered: Jan 2004
This thread is like a drag race downhill. It will be very hard to stop before it gets messy.
------------------ 85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Cant wait for Dyno Time and Track Results. Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Delta Cam and Allante Intake Soon.
IP: Logged
03:28 PM
v8fiero400 Member
Posts: 963 From: Houston,TX,USA Registered: Jan 2004
Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: Why is it that so many goons think they have to prove themselves against (insert name here)?
Because from behind a computer he can be anything he wants to be.....rude, confrontational, ignorant,......and not get punched in the face. This "question" would never be asked if this were a face-to-face conversation.
This "question" would never be asked if this were a face-to-face conversation.
What? Sure it would. If someone was building an engine for me and they said something like "Turbos are only good if you want to drive around at 160" I'd ask him wtf he is talking about.
IP: Logged
04:11 PM
Rborecky Member
Posts: 675 From: Cleveland,Ohio U.S. Registered: Oct 2003
Two things are for sure ,When pushed over the limits a 4cylinder will explode long before a V8 will and a Turbo is going to blow up. It isnt "if" but "When". I'm sorry that it is easier for people to build the turbos and 4cyl so they talk bad about a tried and true race engine "V8". Also a few silly & fake movies made the Ricers the "In Thing". But if you rememebr the best car was at the end,,,,,,, A V8 Charger. None of the Ricers understood that hahahaha. Heck I remember when Warriors came out and everyone thought when they left the theater that they could beat up anybody. Many people got wooped. I think even th efirst Rocky Movie made many think they were a boxer, but they were wrong also. Hey is anyone going to tell Top Fuel there using the wrong engines?????
The nostalgia of hot rodders is V-8's , plain and simple. The hot rod is the basic minimum, four tires, a seat, a steering wheel, and a big ass motor. He was correct in saying that turbo'd motors make their numbers at high RPMS. Do a 1700 rpm roll in a Turbo'd quad four against an LSX motor. I can gaurantee who's gonna win. (on the same gearing of course)
Do a 9000 RPM roll in a Turbo'd Vtec versus an LSX motor. I can guarantee who's going to win too. Archie's statement was pretty ignorant.
Like ALWAYS it all comes down to gearing, and the only place that gearing is always equal is on the bench.
------------------ My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build. You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.
Do a 9000 RPM roll in a Turbo'd Vtec versus an LSX motor. I can guarantee who's going to win too. Archie's statement was pretty ignorant.
Ummm... you do realize that your statement just added to Archie's... the Turbo 4 needs the higher revs to achieve it's power. It's the nature of the beast. If you want the power now when you step on the gas... you need some more torque down there (and sure, there are turbos that spool right away - but they then choke the system or at least peter out on the higher end).
Also, bear in mind that pretty much anything you can do to a 4 cyl, can also be done to a V6 or V8 (turbo, S/C, funny fumes)... Now looking at it from another perspective: How much is it going to cost you to make your 4 banger run with a stock 8 anyway?
This is stupid.
[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 12-28-2005).]
IP: Logged
04:47 PM
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
90% of the time dollar for dollar larger displacement will win.
But: Its not all about who gets to the finish line first, the important thing is looking good when you get there. Which would you rather have, a 11.1 second 426 cuda or a 11.0 second riced out honda? Im sure If I threw enough money at a Ford Festiva I could get into the 10's but why the hell would I want to? The V8's definitely have prestige and win in the cool factor.
And im guessing that seeing as Archie asked for a seperate thread, and isnt posting here, he realizes the futility of the arguement. That being said, im going to follow in archies example and drop this useless arguement, but you guys have fun, lemme know when you declare a winner, lol
Others in this thread have made points trying to explain Archie's viewpoint. He's steadfast in his opinions and will defend them and you and anyone else that decides to write your opinion to change his won't work.
Once again you didn't understand what he was saying. Reread what he wrote.
quote
If you'd like to argue about my opinion, go start yourself a new thread & have a good time.
He never said he'd respond and I don't know why I am...
IP: Logged
06:21 PM
Enterra-BC Member
Posts: 115 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
Well check out this video. You are correct gearing is not going to be the same from chassis to chassis . But im pretty sure the vette in this vid has some non-stock gearing going on that utilizes the full potential of TORQUE. So the Vtec makes power at high rpm and is geared to use it . Where as a LS series of motor can be geared to use TORQUE to acheive blistering speed. Personally when i here a 4 banger hitting 9,000 RPM i wanna get a flak jacket and dive for cover. When i hear a V 8 it usually disappears before i can turn around to see where the f*cking rumble came from. How many differant gear ratio's are available to the fiero? The choices are limited unless you have special parts made ( which doesn't happen because we are all just cheap a$$ fiero owners just ask shaunbag) . So we stick with fairly stock gearing. Now everyone knows that a V8 makes low end TQ and 4 cylinders make high rpm power. But since the gearing is the same I'm guessing the V8 has the ability to out accelorate (0-100) a 4 cylinder with the same amount of HP. Just because the HP is the same doesn't mean the engine will perform the same. People totally forget about the rest of the RPM range when these types of threads come up. So a VTEC makes 500 hp at 9,000 rpm. Whats it doing from idle to 3,500. Its looking at tailights. Who drives around everyday shifting at 9K ? I wonder how long that 9,000 RPM VTEC motor will last .............. any bets ? I would love to see a 400 hp (@ the crank) ecotec drag race a 400 hp (@ the crank) SBC in the 1/4mile (running the same tranny in a fiero). I'm putting my money on the SBC . Archie is to V8's like revs are to 4 bangers, thats the way it is and the way it will probably always be. Why ask the question when you already know the answer ?
Oh and by the way 9,000 RPM is not exclusive to 4 bangers so be carefull about bragging about your high revs
------------------ HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 12-28-2005).]
IP: Logged
06:29 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
It may be Archie's personal opinion, but it is rather ignorant...
4 cylinders can be just as powerful and torquey as v8's. Most definately not N/A (as Archie was probably thinking).. You can set up 4 cylinders to make 400 ft/lb from 2000rpm all the way up to 5000rpm if you'd like... No different from a built 383 really.
So recap 1) displacement rules for N/A. 2) rpm of peak hp is usually related to displacement. 3) boost nullifies all previous rules.
Not sure if it was necessary to start a new thread, but I do respect the respect that was given to Archie's request to start a new thread...
[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 12-28-2005).]
IP: Logged
07:16 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Arn't you the guy who photoshopped a timeslip to make your car much faster than it really is? Oh yeah, that is you. If you have an all mighty 400ci SBC, why photoshop a timeslip?
Number of cylinders is a moot point when talking about acceleration. So is displacement. This is such a complex topic that you can't just say "if you want to go fast from 0-100 you'll need a V-8"
Lets not turn this into another "can the 4cyl pull the load?" thread. Cause it can
Originally posted by archie from other thred: We don't want to wait around for the engine to get to 5000 RPM before we start having fun.
all the 4cly cars & trucks i have ever owned i never had to waite till 5k to have "fun"...... i just love the ignorance of some people who think that a 4cyl has to rev to 18k rpm to make power and that the 8v's low tourqe is gods gift to earth. most of what i have read here are based on biased opinions aginst one another. grow up people, its the dawn of 2006 we live in a time where humans have advanced more in the past 50 years than we have since the begining of time...act like it
edit* to fix quote
[This message has been edited by HI-TECH (edited 12-28-2005).]
IP: Logged
08:32 PM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
If the beginning seems out of place, it is what I said in the other thread, then saw this and decided not to dirty up the other one
quote
Originally posted by Archie:
You need to pay attention, that isn't what I said. I said that many of us like the torque of a Chevy V-8. We like a car to pull hard from the start. We don't want to wait around for the engine to get to 5000 RPM before we start having fun.
If you'd like to argue about my opinion, go start yourself a new thread & have a good time.
Thanks for your input. Archie
With all do respect Archie, that is what you said, exactly what you said.
"Typically the turbo or SCharged 4's make their numbers at high RPM's & that's fine if you drive at 160 mph all the time. But us Hot Rodders want to from 0 to 100 as fast as possible & that takes a V-8."
You say that 4s only make their numbers at high RPM at 160mph. The power part is partially true, most DOHC 4 valve motors do make their power higher up in the RPM range, but you can have 7000rpm at 30mph. And about the 0-100 part, it doesn't take a V8 to get to 100mph as fast as possible, it takes any motor with the power, gearing, and traction required. It could be Bryson's 400rwhp 4 cylinder, it could be a modded 3800, it could be twin 1300cc 4s, it could be a lto of things Archie. The only thing the V8 gives you out of the box is a good low and midrange, which by the way does not correlate to a good 0-100 time, and a nice sound. It doesn't automatically mean your car runs 0-100 "as fast as possible." I guarantee you a stock STi engine swap will beat a stock TPI swap, yet the STi uses a 4 cylinder, not a V8. Same goes for a S2000 swap, or any other 4 cylinder above 240-250hp.
And for your information, there are very few factory 4 cylinders that have to wait until 5000rpm, which by the way happens at 20mph, not 160, to get power. Having driven a STi up and down California, it starts building boost at 2500rpm, and is fully spooled by 3200. Not 5000. Same goes for the Evo, MiataSpeed, etc. Also in fact, there are 4 cylinder turbo cars that started making power even before what is commonly referred to as "Chevy's best truck motor," the TPI, which starts picking up at 2500 like the stock Fiero, just harder of course. The early Sunbird turboes had full boost by 2000rpm, and even earlier in 2nd gear. And this again was at 10-15mph, not 160.
I'm not being a dick, just pointing out facts. And if you don't want to wait for your turbo to spool, there are a ton of options. For one, multistage twin turboes. Another is injecting the fuel you save by using a 4cyl instead of a 5.7l V8 into the exhaust manifold prior to the turbine. The fuel burns in the manifold, expands and forces the turbocharger to reach very very high rpm (Thus creating the airflow required to "boost" the motor), at all engine RPMS, whether it be 1000rpm or 8000. Many auto racers also use nitrous to spool their turboes. Just because an engine is turbocharged doesn't mean it can't make great low end power, even 4 cylinders.
Furthermore, owning an Ecotec yourself, you should know that it isn't a 4000-8000rpm motor. In fact, its camshafts, long intake runners, and small head ports make it a great midrange motor, just like its precessor, the LD9 2.4l DOHC. These both start picking up at 2-3k, like a TPI, yet pull strong to 6000, and in the Ecotec's case, past redline to 6500. A 4 cylinder can be tuned with a low lift cam, small compressor, small heads, and long intake runners just like a TPI or any other V8. All it lacks is displacement, of which many make up for artificially with compressors.
The reason factories run their 4 cylinders at higher RPM is because they can. The DOHC, 4 valve per cylinder design enables the factories to get great power levels because the heads can support the airflow needed to get higher RPM. And as we all know, as RPM increases, so does volumetric efficiency. Thus they can make the same power as early high displacement engines such as the factory 2.8l motor I have, or even the TPI V8 of the late 80s early 90s, with less than half the displacement. But in a lot of cases it takes the RPM to get the same power levels out of a smaller displacement enignes than bigger. The smaller engines have much less rotating/reciprocating mass, and their lower ends can handle the extra RPM better than a large bore/stroke V8.
Furthermore, the amount of cylinders is completely irrelevant. It is displacement that you should have said instead. A 5.7l motor is going to make more low end than a 2.0l, even if they are both V8s, and tuned to the same levels. This is proven by the 3.0l V8s used by Formula 1, and even such motors as the Northstar and Ferrari engines.
------------------ "all pushrod motor are better than the dohc because it has less rotational mass" -rick17, MyMonte member, owner of a 3100 Monte Carlo LS
IP: Logged
08:55 PM
DrDave Member
Posts: 333 From: Port Angeles, Wa. U.S.A. Registered: May 2001
I've done both, big cubes, little High rpms. 406, two HOT 327s (Last one a 66 w/roller cam) triumph 4, triumph 6 (Super charged.) 3/4race slant six (Did You know that the stock clutch wont hold up to 7000 rpm?), two corvairs. (one 4bbl that could whip the 180hp spider.) the 4bbl corvair beat the hell out of a 390 ford. My conclusions: If I spent the same money on the big engines that I did on the little engines to get my horsepower, I could have had a Hell of a lot more horses out of the big engine. I was SURE that every engine/car I had could beat anybody elses. In any case, YOUR engine only has to make YOU happy. Enjoy whatever you build. It's yours.
[This message has been edited by DrDave (edited 12-28-2005).]
IP: Logged
09:08 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
That'll show 'em Aaron. You had much more "colorful" speech with regard to Archie and his supporters on RFT. Worried about getting banned, are we? Wouldn't want to lose that income you make off of people here, now would you?
. Archie is to V8's like revs are to 4 bangers, thats the way it is and the way it will probably always be. Why ask the question when you already know the answer ?
