Here is my story... My 86GT (see signature) had a ton of miles on it and and a lot of problems. I had been saving for a couple years to do a conversion and I found a guy (JR www.kitcarman.com PFF name kitcarman) in the vendors list here on PFF. Seeing that he was fairly close to me ( 212 miles) I contacted him about doing a swap for me. I had initially planned to do the 3.4 swap he offers. I dropped my car off to him on 6/17/06 and he told me that it would be 2 - 3 weeks to get it done. After gathering some info off of here I came to the conclusion that I would not get the 220HP he claimed I would get from that motor. So I contacted him and we changed to the 3800SC II motor instead. He told me it would take a couple extra weeks to do because a 3800 intails more than the 3.4 does.
Lets just cut to the chase...He has given me numerouse delivery dates so far and none of them have been met. The most recent delivery date he has given me is 9/23/06. I went up there yesterday 9/9/06 to take some pics and to check on the progress of my swap. To my dissmay my car still sits outside untouched!
The only thing I was able to take pics of is the donor motor. 3800SC II from a 99 Grand Prix GTP with a little over 16,000 miles on it (3 pics below). Everything you see that is Red is going to be changed to Metalic Green like the valve covers. I plan to paint the car Bermuda Green Metalic if I ever get it back. The supercharger is off and needs to be painted Green yet. I did not take pics of the Supercharger.
I will update this thread as progress gets done but at this rate, it may not be that often!
The problem might be that he has not done a 3800SC swap before and is either still trying to get the needed info and is not sure enough of what he's doing to start the swap. Do not know him but you said it was originally going to get the 3.4 which he knows to do. I would talk it over with him to see what the problem is and if its a case of he can not do it then get the car out of their and to some one else that can do the job. It may just be that he is too busy doing what he is use to doing and doesn't have the time to do some thing like this, in either case if he is not working on your car it is safer in your hands then just sitting out side a shop. Dan
Oh he has done numerous swaps using the 3800SC II. He has given me just about every excuse imaginable as to why he hasn't done mine yet. The main excuse is that he is working on a N* swap that has been giving him troubles. He has told me 2 times now that he was going to put the N* aside and get mine finished as my car is my only vehicle and I have been using a loaner vehicle from work. Work originally agreed to let me use a work truck for the 4 - 6 weeks but we are way past that time period now and work isn't happy. He told me 4 weeks ago that he was going to put the N* aside so I could have my car back by the end of August. He did "NOT" put it aside! He again told me he was going to put it aside this past Tuesday to do my car. Once again...he did "NOT" put it aside. Saturday he told me he was close to having the N* finished and all he needed to do was the hoses and wiring.
JR if you read this...GET TO IT! You wore my patience thin after 2 months and now approaching 3 months my patience is gone! Enough with your excuses!
Hopefully you have not paid him yet, I would say you have been more than patient enough time to get your stuff out of there and get some one else to do the job. Some places need to learn not to take on jobs they do not have time to finnish by the date they say it will be done or be honest upfront and not give a finish date if they are not going to keep it. Dan
He has been paid $4,500.00 of the agreed upon $8,500.00
$7,800.00 of the $8,500.00 is for the motor conversion. The other $700.00 is to do a front brake conversion to Grand Am brakes, replace heater core (I supplied), install all new poly on the front and rear (I supplied) , install new ball joints and tie rod ends (I supplied), install new rear KYB struts and associated parts (I supplied), intall new battery tray (I supplied) and fix the AC.
Man I have got to start charging more for engine swaps I only charge $2,000 CDN for all my labour and do any extras wanted while I am at it for no extra labour costs. I would at this point start hounding him on a regular basis to either get it done or give you back all of your money. If he does not then start getting his customers and possible future customers attention as to how he is screwing with you. Dan
Originally posted by JimmyS: He has been paid $4,500.00 of the agreed upon $8,500.00 $7,800.00 of the $8,500.00 is for the motor conversion. The other $700.00 is to do a front brake conversion to Grand Am brakes, replace heater core (I supplied), install all new poly on the front and rear (I supplied) , install new ball joints and tie rod ends (I supplied), install new rear KYB struts and associated parts (I supplied), intall new battery tray (I supplied) and fix the AC.
Wow! looks like alot of work for a labor charge $700 I think someone has made some bad figures.....Oh and for that price of $8500, I could have bought a car for you and did the swap on it!
Is there no way for you to do it yourself? really not hard. mostly nuts and bolts ...oh and the wiring monster... But then you could get a complete harness made up for you for $600 <<?
I know I could have bought another car with the swap done allready but it's not about the money. I have my blood, sweat, tears and $9,000.00 into this car (not counting the swap). It is no longer just a car to me. It is more part of me.
I can't do the swap myself cause I live in a apartment complex that strictly forbids working on cars in the complex.
I don't think that expecting JR to get off his duff and do what I am paying him to do without all the excuses is asking all that much. You would think that in 11 weeks something would have been accomplished by now. My car still sits in the same spot as when I dropped it off to him. Only difference is there is now over a foot of grass that has grown up around it.
It takes the average swapper (if he's only doing it himself) 3 months to complete a swap including test driving it and getting any bugs out. So that means he is 2 1/2 months behind, Also $9k is a bit high,
I paid about $4300 bucks on my swap and that includes me buying a few toys like a scan guage, Pulley, TB spacer, Ac delete kit ect So add 2k to my figure (if I paid someone to do it) and im still not past $7000 bucks.
now I know in florida low mile 3800 sc 2 engine are expensive, My engine came with 20k miles on it and that alone cost me 1000bucks and I did not get any wire harness or any acessories, The transmission cost me $600 bucks and had 70k miles on it, So yes florida is expensive when it comes to getting one of these bad boys, Im probally guessing the engine and transmission cost him $3000 bucks alone.
Anyway, goodluck with your swap, And when you get her back show us some pics, The wait will be worth it when you drive it.
On average it takes me three weeks from start to finish on engine swaps, that also includes doing any desired extras and repairing rusted metal. I usually put about 100 km on each car before giving back and my warranty covers any thing I touch on the car. So if I can do a swap by myself in that amount of time a shop should be even faster if they have done one before and know what they are doing. Dan
If I was to do it again I would say 3 weeks is more than enough time for me to do one. Honestly mine really only took 5 weeks of actually working on stuff, and I really didnt work that fast.
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10:00 AM
Mike Murphy Member
Posts: 2251 From: Greencastle, Indiana 46135 Registered: Oct 2001
Is this guy in Ft. Lauderdale? What is his name? Sounds like a guy that I did business with about 5 years ago who gave me and others here every excuse in the book. I would be interested to know.
Is this guy in Ft. Lauderdale? What is his name? Sounds like a guy that I did business with about 5 years ago who gave me and others here every excuse in the book. I would be interested to know.
His name is JR and he is in Wildwood, FL. you can look at his website here www.kitcarman.com
Here is the latest pic of the motor supplied to me by JR, VIA email, today 9/15/06 at 6:43PM
*EDIT to add...I see progress! "Not a lot of progress" but progress. Been a week since I was up there and this is all the progress in that weeks time. Told you it might not be that often for updates at this rate. Hopefully he will come through with his delivery date of 9/23/06 but I don't see it happening.
[This message has been edited by JimmyS (edited 09-15-2006).]
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08:06 PM
Sep 16th, 2006
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
Here is the latest pic of the motor supplied to me by JR, VIA email, today 9/15/06 at 6:43PM
*EDIT to add...I see progress! "Not a lot of progress" but progress. Been a week since I was up there and this is all the progress in that weeks time. Told you it might not be that often for updates at this rate. Hopefully he will come through with his delivery date of 9/23/06 but I don't see it happening.
Looks like he only attached the supercharger to the engine, That only takes 10 mins at the most, By now he should of had that sucker attached to the transmission, Mounted on the subframe already.
Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: Looks like he only attached the supercharger to the engine, That only takes 10 mins at the most, By now he should of had that sucker attached to the transmission, Mounted on the subframe already.
On 9/17/06 it will have been 3 months since i dropped off the car. IT SHOULD BE FINISHED AND I SHOULD HAVE IT BACK BY NOW!
He also got the red changed to green.
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07:11 AM
PFF
System Bot
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
I do not know of Jr, nor have I heard anything about the quality of his work... however if he can put together a good quality install between now and the 23rd, I'd be suprised.
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09:18 AM
Sep 17th, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Doesn't appear that he bothered to change the paint color on the water pump from red to green either... doh! And the supercharger wasn't bolted down, doesn't appear to have a gasket under it.
I for one don't care what he's charging you, that's between the two of you. The issue is that he isn't getting the work done in anything resembling a timely manner. Had you checked out any of his previous installs? Talked to the owners of those installs?
Doesn't appear that he bothered to change the paint color on the water pump from red to green either... doh! And the supercharger wasn't bolted down, doesn't appear to have a gasket under it.
I for one don't care what he's charging you, that's between the two of you. The issue is that he isn't getting the work done in anything resembling a timely manner. Had you checked out any of his previous installs? Talked to the owners of those installs?
The only input I had as to his work was from Frank Martin. Frank had told me that he had heard that JR does good work. Frank did not know anything first hand just from what he had heard.
The money is not my concerne. I agreed to the amout without reservation. If he is making more than he should I don't care. All I want is a quality install and done in a timely manner. Basically I just want what I paid for! I don't think thats asking or expecting too much?
JR is also doing an engine conversion for another Forum member and is quite late on completing it. I believe that may be the N* that he says has been giving him trouble. I think that he has had that car for more than 6 months. I also talked with JR myself about a conversion but went with Loyde after that conversation and hearing about the delays on other cars.
Is the N* that the other PFF member having done going into a F40? If so, then that is the 1 JR says is giving him problems. The day I dropped my car off to JR he was just beginning the N* swap. The donor car was in his garage and the N* had not even been removed from it yet. When I went up there on the 9th, the F40 was in the garage and the N* was in it with no wires or hoses attached. JR told me he was having a problem with the brake conversion on the F40 too.
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08:23 PM
Sep 18th, 2006
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
The money is not my concerne. I agreed to the amout without reservation. If he is making more than he should I don't care. All I want is a quality install and done in a timely manner. Basically I just want what I paid for! I don't think thats asking or expecting too much?
Honestly for that kind of money I would honestly expect a weekend turnover. I know for a fact that loyde over at FF has done extremly quality swaps in less than a weeks time. And he advertizes half of what your paying for a 3+ month job, maybe.
I would cut down the coil pack holder so it doesnt take up so much room. You really only need the parts that hold the pulleys where they need to be.
The exhaust is neat, looks like your on track to run a slightly smaller pulley. I asume your shooting for a 3.4 right?
I know JR. I have done some freelance work in the past for him. He is a good guy and unless something has changed in the 12 years that I have known him, he isn't a scammer. Do you know he has stuff in SPACE? The guy can perform miracles with a machine shop and some metal. He has a kinda out there personality and can be a bit slow. IIRC he never could find good help. He lives out in the boonies. I went over that rickety bridge to the island on his property and thought for sure I was going to be eaten by a croc or the swap thing! If it wasn't that, it would be the various bees and killer ants that are all over his property. Have some faith, he will get it done. Just don't expect it to be completed quickly. He is to anal about every detail to slap something together quickly. I know it sucks and I'd be mad too. I just know how he is and I am offering some insight.
Steven
p.s. anyone remember Daytona '99 when he had company X (cant remember the actual name) shreds tires, ask me how. spray painted down the side of his F40 replica?
I know JR. I have done some freelance work in the past for him. He is a good guy and unless something has changed in the 12 years that I have known him, he isn't a scammer. Do you know he has stuff in SPACE? The guy can perform miracles with a machine shop and some metal. He has a kinda out there personality and can be a bit slow. IIRC he never could find good help. He lives out in the boonies. I went over that rickety bridge to the island on his property and thought for sure I was going to be eaten by a croc or the swap thing! If it wasn't that, it would be the various bees and killer ants that are all over his property. Have some faith, he will get it done. Just don't expect it to be completed quickly. He is to anal about every detail to slap something together quickly. I know it sucks and I'd be mad too. I just know how he is and I am offering some insight.
Steven
I appreciate the insight Steven. My gut tells me that JR knows his stuff and I really have no doubts about his ability. My main gripe is the time it is taking him. The fact that my car has been there for 3 months and "nothing" has been started on it is what gets my goat. I have car meet plans for next month in the Keys (Spacecoast Fiero's Run to the Keys), a trip to Ohio planned for Christmas and New Years and a new paint job planned. He is cutting it real close to my plans. Also there is the fact that I am using a loaner vehicle from work and they are upset with "me" about how long I have been using this vehicle. I have a very uncomfortable feeling at work and that is not good for my livelyhood.
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02:46 PM
Sep 19th, 2006
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
It is not typical of people in this line of work to take on more than they can handle.....they have a difficult time saying no to any job and then often overwhelm themselves with more work than they can complete as negotiated.
I had the same problems when I was getting my engine rebuild. The machinist had the block for months when it literally was only a few hours of work. He was good, but I had to hound him to get it back.
I believe the mentality is rooted in the fear that they will not have any work, and consequently be out of business. So they instinctually say yes to every job, and work long crazy hours.
OK here are the 2 latest pics from JR. Received on 9/22/06 at 2:38am & 2:43am
first is the motor, minus the 3.4 pully, waiting to be mounted on the cradle.
Next is a pic of the front rotors painted and waiting to be put on the car.
According to 1 of the emails he sent the pics in last night... My old 2.8 was coming out today and the new 3800SC II was going to be mounted on the cradle. I sent him a reply email requesting pics tonight so hopefully he will come through and I will start seeing some "Major" progress taking place.
Well "ANOTHER" delivery date has come and gone! Now he says next weekend! This "next weekend" thing is getting old.
And without further ado, here is the man (JR) responsible for all my fiero swap aggravation as he walks behind my car that still sits "untouched" for 14 weeks now.
Just another pic of my "untouched" car.
And 1 more of my "untouched" car. If you mow your yard and find my car you might be JR!
Here is the power that sits impatiently in a corner waiting for installation.
And the cradle that impatiently sits on the side waiting for the power to be mounted. This cradle is "NOT" the cradle out of my car. It is another cradle that JR sand blasted and painted cause he said it will "speed up" the installation once my car starts to be torn apart. LOL Speed up? Gee after 14 weeks I don't think speeding it up by a couple extra hours is gonna make everything OK.
[This message has been edited by JimmyS (edited 09-24-2006).]
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06:03 PM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
Are you not worried? I mean with you pressuring him, and him trying to make a deadline. Will he not rush just to get it done, and then I mean what if you have problems? Its not like you can drive down the street to the dealer, this is all custom work. If you have to get something fixed how much trust are you going to have going back to him.
Are you not worried? I mean with you pressuring him, and him trying to make a deadline. Will he not rush just to get it done, and then I mean what if you have problems? Its not like you can drive down the street to the dealer, this is all custom work. If you have to get something fixed how much trust are you going to have going back to him.
Pressuring him? This was supposed to be completed 2 months ago and he hasn't even touched my car yet! If it takes me poking him in the arse with a red hot poker to get him to move then so be it. "HE" is the one who keeps telling me the car will be done by such a date not "ME" telling him to have it done by such a date. This is the 5th delivery date he has given me over the course of the past 3 1/2 months and we are now onto the 6th! If it is not done right and there are problems that he will not take care of then I have a really good attorney on standby who knows the entire situation allready.
Edit to add... In my heart I don't think JR is that kind of person to do a bad job just to get it done. If that was his intention then it would be done by now. I also believe he, in good faith, will take care of any issues that affect his work. JR knows what he is doing and is more than capable of doing it well but he is slower than snail snot!
[This message has been edited by JimmyS (edited 09-24-2006).]
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06:31 PM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
Hey, my parents live right there in Fort Myers. Coming up next week.
Well that would have been a good source for me to get my own 3800sc, but not now.
As far as JR, you are really saying two things. In one respect he may do good work, but in another he has no respect for others, empathy for their plight (you are borrowing another car), and simple understanding of the importance of keeping your word (that just makes good business).
At this point of would have taken my car home, and demanded all my money back.
Good Luck. I will watch to see how this ends. Please keep us informed for the good or bad. Perhaps you may want to point him toward this thread, that will maybe motivate him. Again, how many Fiero owners are present here. He will never work on another Fiero again.
Way to start a build thread 
I think someone has made some bad figures.....Oh and for that price of $8500, I could have bought a car for you and did the swap on it!
