I say sue him now, just so you dont have to pay him anything. Make it seem like you are "seizing" the car unfinished, but I think it might be close, at least close enough for PFF to help you finish it.
Just think if you spend 100 hours finishing it, your still making 40 bucks an hour.
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01:37 PM
Ponalum Member
Posts: 71 From: Medicine Hat, AB, Canada Registered: Sep 2004
I agree with dark, take your car else where and don't pay him another cent. Just this summer I passed up buying a 3800SC Fiero with the following:
1985 GT w/98 GTP 3800SC Motor 127 000kms on body Swapped 5spd Trans Walbro 255lph Ceneterforce Dual fiction clutch EGR, PS, AC delete ( Fastfiero looking install, very clean) Running ready to drive for $5500 CDN w/ wideband tuning.
I couldn't buy because I just bought a harley, anyone from alberta probably seen that one for sale out of Camrose. For what your paying, the service should be great. 2 weeks tops for completion. This guy can't claim to install swaps when he plain just don't have the time, thats whats going on here. "Comming up here wont help" That would of pissed me off. If your in florida, I would have taken it to FastFieros no questions asked.
I'm spending 10k on my swap and I'm doing it myself but I'm rebuilding every last thing the rear axel. I just picked up a rear axel out of an old 2m4, going to complete it and throw it into the first nice GT I find for a good price, then rebuild the front. I love fieros, I didn't think twice about selling my harley for the project, (laff) you can't drink beer on a harley.
Well anyways, good luck man, I hate to see this happen to a fellow fiero owner. Thats a nice one you got, its going to be sweet when its done.
QUESTION FOR DARK: Are you happy with the auto trans? I'm thinking going that route so I can build up for more power not have to worry about custom flywheel, burning clutches and manual blowing up. One axel is from the manual, drivers side..(i got that already rebuilt) and the other is made from the GTP drivers. Any shift adaptor required? I'm sure you could use use stock and just have 2 3 D N R or whatever ?Correct if im wrong. thanks man.
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03:25 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Originally posted by Ponalum: QUESTION FOR DARK: Are you happy with the auto trans? I'm thinking going that route so I can build up for more power not have to worry about custom flywheel, burning clutches and manual blowing up. One axel is from the manual, drivers side..(i got that already rebuilt) and the other is made from the GTP drivers. Any shift adaptor required? I'm sure you could use use stock and just have 2 3 D N R or whatever ?Correct if im wrong. thanks man.
I am EXTREMELY happy with my trans!
This transmission is so great! The ability to screw with the shift pressures in the PCM is super fun, and very powerfull.
The shift link is backwards, and sorta screwy. It was fairly easy to hook up, reqiured some welding. There is a good picture of it on page 3 of my swap thread.
The axles were more or less really easy for me. I think I spent alot of time on them, but I only spent $15 total. Just look around my thread for stuff, I know there is some stuff there.
The only thing that has pissed me off about my swap at all is the fact these trans coolant lines are giving me a bunch of problems, breaking and blowing off ect.
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04:28 PM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
This transmission is so great! The ability to screw with the shift pressures in the PCM is super fun, and very powerfull.
The shift link is backwards, and sorta screwy. It was fairly easy to hook up, reqiured some welding. There is a good picture of it on page 3 of my swap thread.
The axles were more or less really easy for me. I think I spent alot of time on them, but I only spent $15 total. Just look around my thread for stuff, I know there is some stuff there.
The only thing that has pissed me off about my swap at all is the fact these trans coolant lines are giving me a bunch of problems, breaking and blowing off ect.
Mine was doing that all the time till I did some good flaring Now it never blows off and this car is my daily driver (cheaper on gas ) My return line has transmission rubber hose going into alluminum tubing flared. My main feed line is all metal The alluminum tubing cost me 25bucks and works great.
The automatic transmission for these swaps are awsome, There is nothing like driving and flogging it and not having to worry about a clutch or transmission breaking.
I had not heard from JR so I called him at 7:15pm and left a message. He just returned my call and now there are more excuses. Apparently he has 2 sets of Exhaust tips and both sets are labeled wrong on the boxes. He claims that the boxes say 2 1/2 " and the tips are only 2 1/4". So the exhaust is NOT finished and it will be at least 3-4 days for replacement tips to come in. Also he has not fixed the brakes yet and still has tuning to do. I told him on the phone that he was going to make me miss another Fiero meet (Fall Haul) and his reply was... "Things happen and the car will be done when it's done". At that point I just hung up on him. I am going to the attorny's office tomorrow and telling him to proceed with the law suit. I am done F#$%%@^& around with this piece of SH&%T
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08:01 PM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
Ive been reading this thread and all I have to say is it sounds so unbelievable. What kind of tuning is left? is he doing the tuning? And the brakes? Good luck trying to sue. Do you have a contract with this guy? Does the contract state a completion date?
I think that the most disturbing thing about this transaction is that he has been promising dates and has not delivered. I guess that is the thing that bugs me.
Good luck. You will probably have to settle on a value on what he has done so far and get the car back as is. And have it finished yourself.
I hope you get it done so your plans on bringing it to Ohio works out but I doubt it will be done correctly enough to make it this far.
quote
Originally posted by JimmyS:
I had not heard from JR so I called him at 7:15pm and left a message. He just returned my call and now there are more excuses. Apparently he has 2 sets of Exhaust tips and both sets are labeled wrong on the boxes. He claims that the boxes say 2 1/2 " and the tips are only 2 1/4". So the exhaust is NOT finished and it will be at least 3-4 days for replacement tips to come in. Also he has not fixed the brakes yet and still has tuning to do. I told him on the phone that he was going to make me miss another Fiero meet (Fall Haul) and his reply was... "Things happen and the car will be done when it's done". At that point I just hung up on him. I am going to the attorny's office tomorrow and telling him to proceed with the law suit. I am done F#$%%@^& around with this piece of SH&%T
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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"
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09:33 PM
Nov 6th, 2006
Dirty Harry Member
Posts: 347 From: Orlando, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2003
I'm afraid Floridas mechanics lien law will permit JR to hold the car until he is paid. Even if you sue, he can hold the car pending outcome unless you post a bond guaranteeing him payment. At this point, I think you would be wiser to let him finish the car without totally pissing him off. You do want it finished properly don't you?
Now that you have another Fiero you won't miss the Fall Haul. You'd be better off giving him another week to tweak it & get all the bugs out. Then try to get him to work with you on adjusting the price. Who knows, he may do that. If he doesn't, pay him and get the car. Then you can sue him for whatever you feel is due you. He has the leverage (your car) at this point. Do whatever you can to avoid having to sue. If you feel frustrated now, you can multiply it by ten once you start paying an attorney and dealing with a slow motion court system. Two hundred fifty dollars per hour adds up very quickly!
------------------ 87 GT Maroon, Red Formula & White Formula
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12:51 AM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
Its kind of a catch 22. You want the car back now but you want it done correct. You may get it back at a later date and it still might have problems. Doesnt JR do this type of work full time? Is this typical for hime to stall ( assuming he is stalling) or is just promising a completion date he cat make.
Ive only done one swap and it was mine. Ive been asked to do others but Im hesitant to do so. Mainly because of the time constraint of already having a full time job.
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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"
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08:47 AM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
I went thru something similar. It is best when something like this starts to get out as early, and quickly as possible.
If I were you, for the cost of a trailer or tow truck, go get the car and settle over the cost now. You will have some leverage with him, being he set a promise date and has not completed the work. If he has some honesty you can be fair over the work completed, despite he did not complete work promised in the original contract.
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09:11 AM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
I would go pickup the car as soon as you get a chance, Then finish the rest of it, There is alot of good info on this site that will help you through finishing it, If need be I will PM you my phone number and help you through the rest, If need be I will reserve a day off from work and drive down and help if you want. I even have the welding equipment to finish off your exhaust.
BTW I heard you mention the oil guage not working, When the car is started does it move 0 to 80 psi or does it not move at all? If it's not moving at all then there is a wiring error on his part.
I know how you feel and it sucks You have been patient and have shown great restraint , If it was me I don't know what I would of done. Him taking this long is BS, And I can tell that this guy does not even have the right tools for this swap and is outright lazy, If I was paid money to do someone swap I would do it like I was doing my own car, You paid him money for services, allowing this guy to take even longer is BS, taking 6months on that is crazy, Most good swappers will beable to do your exhaust and ect on there own and not need a exhaust shop to finish that.
You should of had PBJ, Loyde or Darth do your swap, These guys would of had you happy and would of took a heck of alot less time to complete.
Do not pay this guy the amount that you were going to pay, If he complains about a promised price, Just complain back about the promised time.
I might end up missing the fiero hall as well ( unfortunate fender bender) And it's causing me time to install my intercooler ect.
[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 11-06-2006).]
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11:02 AM
PFF
System Bot
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1813 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
It's time to start over kinda! Talk to JR about the final pay off for the completed project. Draw up some papers about a delivery date, and some penalties if not on time. The thing you want is the car back and running as promised. I believe he can do it, it's just a matter of having a real dead line that can cost him money if not completed. I hope everyone learns that there needs to be real paper work at the beginning, Not a bunch of promises. Hope things get better this week. Gary
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03:03 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Ive been reading this thread and all I have to say is it sounds so unbelievable. What kind of tuning is left? is he doing the tuning? And the brakes? Good luck trying to sue. Do you have a contract with this guy? Does the contract state a completion date?
I think that the most disturbing thing about this transaction is that he has been promising dates and has not delivered. I guess that is the thing that bugs me.
Good luck. You will probably have to settle on a value on what he has done so far and get the car back as is. And have it finished yourself.
I hope you get it done so your plans on bringing it to Ohio works out but I doubt it will be done correctly enough to make it this far.
He has a tiny tiny pulley on there. it would take a mathmatian to get that thing tuned correctly, and it would take him many weeks and many more tanks of gas.
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06:44 PM
Ponalum Member
Posts: 71 From: Medicine Hat, AB, Canada Registered: Sep 2004
Thanks Dark and Earl for your comments and suggestions.
Good luck Jimmy, the only thing your guilty of is trusting someone a little too much. But thats ok, whats done is done, it will work out good. The Fiero you have is clean and the motor swap looks good man.
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08:00 PM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
I hope not for Jim's sake. No seriously. How much tunning is needed when going to a smaller pulley? Does OBD2 make automatic adjustments. Are we talking about additional fuel delivery? Timing?
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon: He has a tiny tiny pulley on there. it would take a mathmatian to get that thing tuned correctly, and it would take him many weeks and many more tanks of gas.
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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"
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08:03 PM
Nov 7th, 2006
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I hope not for Jim's sake. No seriously. How much tunning is needed when going to a smaller pulley? Does OBD2 make automatic adjustments. Are we talking about additional fuel delivery? Timing?
He will have to richen up the fuel curves a little bit, so that it will help cool the burn in the cylinder. That requires a few speed density tunes to be done accurately and correctly. Asuming that the extra fuel doesnt cure all of his knock, which it shouldnt, he will then proceed dropping the timing down upwards of 4 degrees to kill that knock. Any miss calculations in the intake, or exhaust tubing could also add onto more difficulty tuning.
In the end, with the increased fueling, and the retarded timing, the MPG will be effected SIGNIFICANTLY and he will actually be seeing a quite noticible decrease in full power band horsepower due to the timing retard (10-15 across the whole curve) compared to a car that was modded enough to run a 3.3 pulley on native programming.
I also wanted to add the fact that it the obd2 pcm is very smart, and it averages out ALOT of data over time, so most of the tuning that was done will just be extremely skewed over time because he wasnt able to give the car a good time to run and collect data.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-07-2006).]
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05:14 PM
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1813 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
So darkhorizon? Are you saying that the obd2 pcm is so smart that Jim can not let anyone else drive the car because of driving habits? Or am I missing something here? LMK Thanks Gary
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06:25 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
So darkhorizon? Are you saying that the obd2 pcm is so smart that Jim can not let anyone else drive the car because of driving habits? Or am I missing something here? LMK Thanks Gary
I am sorta lost as to what you mean here. Are you joking or attacking me or do I not understand your question?
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08:22 PM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
You see Im running OBD1.Would you say that I dont have the flexability to make adjustments when doing engine mods?
Yes you have the flexabilty but not like you would if you where running OBD2. There are so many parameters the PCM controls on the L-67, it is unreal. Every little thing like weather, gas grade, ect has a effect on the tuning on the setup. Most people that run OBD1 wiring run a flashed prom that is a one time thing and thats it. While it does run the car and you think it runs 100%, you would be suprised how off the tune might be once you start scanning all the parameters. If you ever start doing heavy MODs(cam, TB upgrade, injectors, ect) you will see that running it with just a burnt prom will be a nightmare. While the prom can be flashed to match the MODs you have added, without a real time run with in car tuning, it will never be right. I had my car tuned several months back before my dyno run, everything looked good(O2s, LTFTs, ect). Now that the weather has cooled of quite a bit my LTFTs are in the negatives now, which changes many other parameters. I am going back for another tune in a few weeks to get this corrected. I am planning on buying a tuner in the near future so I can make the changes when they are needed. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with running OBD1 but OBD2 is much more advanced and will get more out of a setup.
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09:07 PM
Nov 8th, 2006
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Yes you have the flexabilty but not like you would if you where running OBD2. There are so many parameters the PCM controls on the L-67, it is unreal. Every little thing like weather, gas grade, ect has a effect on the tuning on the setup. Most people that run OBD1 wiring run a flashed prom that is a one time thing and thats it. While it does run the car and you think it runs 100%, you would be suprised how off the tune might be once you start scanning all the parameters. If you ever start doing heavy MODs(cam, TB upgrade, injectors, ect) you will see that running it with just a burnt prom will be a nightmare. While the prom can be flashed to match the MODs you have added, without a real time run with in car tuning, it will never be right. I had my car tuned several months back before my dyno run, everything looked good(O2s, LTFTs, ect). Now that the weather has cooled of quite a bit my LTFTs are in the negatives now, which changes many other parameters. I am going back for another tune in a few weeks to get this corrected. I am planning on buying a tuner in the near future so I can make the changes when they are needed. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with running OBD1 but OBD2 is much more advanced and will get more out of a setup.
Quite true. The fact is, its technicly possible to tune your car with either obd1 or 2, but the fact is none of the sub 9 second cars are still quite out of tune compared to a l67 right off the showroom floor. The idea of running obd2 is the fact that you can get your car quite close after few hundered hours of speed density calculations. As far as obd1 goes, I dont know if there are the same provisions for speed density as there is no maf sensor (at least a fully implemented one). If you spent the time tuning your car with obd1 that most people do with obd2 and have good results (lots of timing, accurate fueling through your RPM band) then thats great. the problem is, I have never looked at a obd1 S2 3800 that has had extensive tuning done to it (or saw dyno numbers)
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12:02 AM
PFF
System Bot
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
And Now the Real Story. Originally James wanted a 3.4 Crate engine and cam. No problem a week long job once crate engine and cam and rockers arrived. And something my helpers could do. Basically a bolt in except for drilling the extra starter hole. And yes it will get 220-230 HP He said everybody (????) said that was way to high hp rating. Then in 4 recordered messages in a paniced voice he wanted a 3800SC now. So he changed to a 3800 SuperCharged motor. Completely not understanding that the original 3.4 was an easy job, and the 3800SC was not. I said ok, even though I was now eating the $2,300.00 or so for the cam and rockers and the GM crate engine. I could use it for next 3.4 customer. In the mean time he was 3rd in line for doing his car. Needless to say he bullied his way into us doing it sooner. (Probably his original plan as he delivered his car) (before the GM crate motor arrived and we were ready for his job) Now had to order an all new engine and parts. I said it would be started when a 40rty was at paint. Again, before his now expanded and more time consuming 3800SC engine job. But his bullieing got me to work on his sooner. *And yes "BULLINEING" is my interpertation of the events.* I tried to work on 3 cars at once not a fun time. Finally got rid of the 3800SC auto conversion from a 4spd 3800SC done. That was about the point he got worse. I have lost track of the numerous times I offered and finally BEGGED him to take a FULL refund and go elsewhere, he has ALWAYS refused. Now I've expended way to much money and time for a refund. The Last time I BEGGED and PLEADED with him and offered a FULL REFUND the front ball joints were done and we had made and installed front grand am brakes. All would have been done for FREE and I said I would deliver the car to anywhere and anybody of his choice for doing the 3800SC swap. James again REFUSED FULL REFUND and FREE DELIVERY of his Car ANYWHERE. I also offered him my 3/4 ton chevy van 5 or 6 times and also my dune buggy for him to drive but he also refused those offers. I on "HIS" recommendation even drove to port st lucie and bought a fiero and got it titled and insured and licensed for him to drive . (What James SAID he Wanted, alas another Futal attempt to make James happy) The port lucie car did over heat when I hauled it down to him. It would have been a simple fix by wiring the fan on always. But now it sits here at the car farm. 87 gt V6 auto for sale if somebody wants it. And me out $1960.00 MORE expended on his behalf. (car+insurance+tag+title) Not including the time and gas all wasted trying to make James happy. (which I now believe is probably not possible)
And yes he has helped work on his car but that is/was his choice. And yes it was easy things that got done when he was here. And yes it did help. But in reality the engine got installed before it was Really Ready to go in, because he came that day and wanted to see/make progress on his car. So that’s what happened, trying to make the customer happy.
I don't use this forum much, usually unsucessfully trying to sell something. But I have gotten 5 phone calls from friends so far that I am being sued by a guy on the fiero forum, so after being asked to check it out. Here is my post. And no I haven't read all the negativity in all the posts just went to page 5 to see the part they were talking about. * Not really wanting to post here for all the Crap and e-mails it will generate and people that can or have done it better and faster and cheeper. I have posted anyway. In case inquiring minds want to know it'll be months before I might look and or post to this forum again.
PS: If wanted you'all can remove me from this forum and it will be perfectly ok with me. As I seem to have upset the Fiero Gods. JR *
Foto of Tips if it goes thru. I have a total of 4 all 2.250 in 2.5 boxes. Believe or Not YOUR Choice. You can also call the factory in AZ as they are on backorder right now. Also summit had to pull them from their shelves as they were boxed wrong too. And they don't know when they will get them in the 2.5 size I need. But I will make them from scratch if I have too. JR PS again: James also got for FREE aluminum dash overlays. He was going to get a FREE evap core, but not now. Also got FREE install of his new front end parts.
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02:23 PM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
And Now the Real Story. Originally James wanted a 3.4 Crate engine and cam. No problem a week long job once crate engine and cam and rockers arrived. And something my helpers could do. Basically a bolt in except for drilling the extra starter hole. And yes it will get 220-230 HP He said everybody (????) said that was way to high hp rating. Then in 4 recordered messages in a paniced voice he wanted a 3800SC now. So he changed to a 3800 SuperCharged motor. Completely not understanding that the original 3.4 was an easy job, and the 3800SC was not. I said ok, even though I was now eating the $2,300.00 or so for the cam and rockers and the GM crate engine. I could use it for next 3.4 customer. In the mean time he was 3rd in line for doing his car. Needless to say he bullied his way into us doing it sooner. (Probably his original plan as he delivered his car) (before the GM crate motor arrived and we were ready for his job) Now had to order an all new engine and parts. I said it would be started when a 40rty was at paint. Again, before his now expanded and more time consuming 3800SC engine job. But his bullieing got me to work on his sooner. *And yes "BULLINEING" is my interpertation of the events.* I tried to work on 3 cars at once not a fun time. Finally got rid of the 3800SC auto conversion from a 4spd 3800SC done. That was about the point he got worse. I have lost track of the numerous times I offered and finally BEGGED him to take a FULL refund and go elsewhere, he has ALWAYS refused. Now I've expended way to much money and time for a refund. The Last time I BEGGED and PLEADED with him and offered a FULL REFUND the front ball joints were done and we had made and installed front grand am brakes. All would have been done for FREE and I said I would deliver the car to anywhere and anybody of his choice for doing the 3800SC swap. James again REFUSED FULL REFUND and FREE DELIVERY of his Car ANYWHERE. I also offered him my 3/4 ton chevy van 5 or 6 times and also my dune buggy for him to drive but he also refused those offers. I on "HIS" recommendation even drove to port st lucie and bought a fiero and got it titled and insured and licensed for him to drive . (What James SAID he Wanted, alas another Futal attempt to make James happy) The port lucie car did over heat when I hauled it down to him. It would have been a simple fix by wiring the fan on always. But now it sits here at the car farm. 87 gt V6 auto for sale if somebody wants it. And me out $1960.00 MORE expended on his behalf. (car+insurance+tag+title) Not including the time and gas all wasted trying to make James happy. (which I now believe is probably not possible)
And yes he has helped work on his car but that is/was his choice. And yes it was easy things that got done when he was here. And yes it did help. But in reality the engine got installed before it was Really Ready to go in, because he came that day and wanted to see/make progress on his car. So that’s what happened, trying to make the customer happy.
I don't use this forum much, usually unsucessfully trying to sell something. But I have gotten 5 phone calls from friends so far that I am being sued by a guy on the fiero forum, so after being asked to check it out. Here is my post. And no I haven't read all the negativity in all the posts just went to page 5 to see the part they were talking about. * Not really wanting to post here for all the Crap and e-mails it will generate and people that can or have done it better and faster and cheeper. I have posted anyway. In case inquiring minds want to know it'll be months before I might look and or post to this forum again.
PS: If wanted you'all can remove me from this forum and it will be perfectly ok with me. As I seem to have upset the Fiero Gods. JR *
Foto of Tips if it goes thru. I have a total of 4 all 2.250 in 2.5 boxes. Believe or Not YOUR Choice. You can also call the factory in AZ as they are on backorder right now. Also summit had to pull them from their shelves as they were boxed wrong too. And they don't know when they will get them in the 2.5 size I need. But I will make them from scratch if I have too. JR PS again: James also got for FREE aluminum dash overlays. He was going to get a FREE evap core, but not now. Also got FREE install of his new front end parts.
I really don't understand this, If you really wanted to make him happy, Why did you not have his car done ? 5 and a half months is way too long to take on a conversion, I have never done a 3800 sc 2 conversion and it took me 3 months, This is including making my own harness and everything, There is also Darkhorizon, This guy has never done a 3800 sc 2 conversion, AND HE HAD HIS DONE IN 3 weeks, He also did his own harness.
And the story about the exhaust tips I can't understand either, I can go out right now and get a pair of 2 1/2 inch exhaust tips. This guy paid you for services and a time frame, If you could not of had it done, Then why in the heck did you take the job ? Im sorry to be a pain but alot of your story does not make sense.
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03:08 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Jimmy never cared so much for how long it took, he knew that it did not take long to do. The fact that you had 2 other cars you worked on in the last 5 months does not mean ANYTHING as a professional builder would have had all 3 cars taken care of in a months time, absolute tops. Also, you took the car to begin with, you took down a $4000 down payment of some sort which was dated almost 5 months from this week.
I slightly question the facts, as most of the things you said about giving back the car also do not hold any water in anyway. The simple fact was he agreed on a price, and you agreed on a delivery date (even if you just said a rough guess).
I was waiting for dash overlay plug when I was reading this. That has NO place in trying to counter a job like this taking as long as it has. And also why would you make any fuss about installing front end parts? I agree that is no "easy" job, but really quite a fair thing to expect when he is paying you more than what I could buy a like new car for.
I really have a hard time beliveing the whole story about you buying him a car and bringing it to him, that just seems like an EXTREME waste of time. While you were out screwing around with that, you could of easily gotten either the complete wiring harness done, or the motor completely swap prepped, which frankly, both of those jobs together make up about 80% of the time required to do a swap, the rest is just common stuff. Also, I would not want to mess with borrowing one of your vehcials in ANY situation, simply due to liability. I am not a very old or experienced person, but I have enough common sense than to get involved with "borrowing" cars.
The 3.4 crate would hardly ever make that horsepower, that is a complete dream no matter what cams you would ever put in there. The 3.4 on a good day makes 160 peak hp in a camaro, in a fiero it would be lucky to get near 145 due to intake and exhaust limits. adding on an extra 90 horsepower would require a 160% increase in power. I would expect with a full exhaust, custom truleo intake, to see about the camero hp, maybe a bit more. The cam/rockers might add about 12-15% but it would be STRICTLY higher rpm horsepower. So generously, lets say the setup stock motor makes 170 (yea right) and the cam adds 20% (just stupid to think a cam would add this much but meh) we get about 200. So being extremely generous with a very expensive build you MIGHT see 200 horsepower, so show me where you are pulling the extra power from?
Lastly, why did you buy the 3.4 before reciving a $4000 downpayment?
I have been holding back on saying this but I am sure others would agree. This whole issue should have never made it into this Thread, it just shows bad character on the buyers half. This issue should have been handled between the builder and the buyer one on one and should not have been brought out. No one on here knows the complete story behind what has went on between the two. We can only go by what others have said, which brings up to a one sided story. You can only assume the buyer is telling the truth but then again the builder has gave his side of the story. Of course since everyone has been reading only the buyers side, then thats who they are going to side with. Jsut from this Thread, you can see where the buyer had a simliar issue with another seller. From what the builder has said, it is possible that is how it all went down. Whos to really know but the two that are involved in the deal. I now alot of ppl on here have did there swaps in less time, blah, blah, blah, but everyone works at a differant pace. It almost seems like this Thead was made not as a build Thread but as a Thread to bash on the builder in attempt to speed things up. I am not taking either side on the matter, being I dont know either party involved, jsut stating how I see things.
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08:06 PM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
I agree with the above. A public forum is not place to air problems. But, with that being said, both parties should have been more cautious. One in deciding to take on a supposedly difficult customer, and also a purchaser who knew there were sure indications that work was not being done in a timely matter. What strikes me as strange is the customer actually coming to the shop and working on his own car. If I was the shop owner I would worry about liability. But, rest assured that would have been the breaking point for me, whether seller or buyer. It was bad relationship, and so the soap opera continues.
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08:40 PM
Nov 9th, 2006
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
I really don't understand this, If you really wanted to make him happy, Why did you not have his car done ? 5 and a half months is way too long to take on a conversion, I have never done a 3800 sc 2 conversion and it took me 3 months, This is including making my own harness and everything, There is also Darkhorizon, This guy has never done a 3800 sc 2 conversion, AND HE HAD HIS DONE IN 3 weeks, He also did his own harness.
....
I think he explained it already. It started as the 3.4 swap which is a fast easy swap that his shop workers can do. When it changed to the SC3800 swap, he had to do it.... he also had to wait on the engine to arrive after the change.
As far as how fast others do the swap. I tend to agree with other comments. Just because someone took 3 weeks to do it, does not make it the standard for all swaps. Or does it? If I took my car to someone for the conversion and they had it done in three weeks, I'd wonder about the quality and workmanship of thier work... unless they have a well established reputation for doing great work in three weeks.
[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 11-09-2006).]
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12:27 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I admit, that I didnt do the quality of work, that he did or will do, in 3 weeks, but I would expect that because I never did any of this swap before.
I know loyde, who is known to do very quailty and good looking work, on a few occations has done swaps from start to finish in less than 7 days (IIRC, he had it picked up then delivered some 500 miles away in this time too). I think that fieroflyer and PBJ would both admit that this job could of easily been done in a month my amatures. The simple idea is the fact that the builder was getting paid to do a profesional job, and not somthing a weekend warrior would do in his free time that most of us home made 3800 swapers do. And the fact is, any weekend warrior type builder here on this fourm would easily admit that they didnt spend anywhere near even 4 months on their project, and they only get to work on it 2 days a week, instead of 7!
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02:25 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I don't have a dog in this fight so I am not going to comment on this battle; but I would like to comment on the subject matter of engine swaps since I do them...
If I had every part needed to do a swap already made and sitting on a shelf, I could easily do a top-class, show-winning swap within 1 week. Yes, it can be done. But that isn't how I operate. Call it different strokes for different folks if you will, but I have found that every customer doesn't want the exact same swap with the exact same options as the next guy. Therefore I have decided to make my OWN parts used in every swap I do, unless of course the customer specifies otherwise. Every harness is custom made to each specific application, which takes time. I don't have harnesses sitting on a shelf ready to be installed. Why? I don't have time to devote to just making harnesses. My shop schedule is so backed up I really don't even have the time to post to this thread!
So for people to say it should only take X amount of time to do a swap and that swap should only cost X amount of money has no idea what they are talking about. I have seen $2000 swaps before and they are far from a show car looking swap. I have also seen people do a swap in a relatively short period of time using 3rd party parts and they also don't tend to turn out looking very good. Hell, I put all of the swaps I do thru at least 1 week or more of just testing/driving before I will let it leave the shop! That's in addition to the time it took to do the swap itself!
The point I am trying to make here is you can't rush quality or custom work. Not everybody wants to use 3rd party swap mounts and parts because of one reason or another. My biggest reason for making my own mounts used in my swaps is because then I have 100% control over fit, finish, and quality of the finished product. I have seen the 3rd party mounts sold here on PFF by various people/vendors fail as well as have fitment issues; so why waste my time having to alter those pieces when I can just make my own that have been proven to work?? Not to mention the fact that NOT everybody wants poly mounts on these engines anyway. I have recently come up with a rubber mounting solution for my swaps that I consider to be bulletproof! That's right, poly mount durability without sacrificing the smoothness you would otherwise have to give up if you use poly mounts. ( these can be seen here: http://www.gmtuners.com/Customer/Kurts_GT/index.htm )
Also, I am the only person running two businesses. One is the engine swap business and the other is the custom chip/PCM tuning business. On top of that I help countless people per day FOR FREE by answering their automotive questions via email which takes quite a while to do in itself.
With that being said, I do think a person operating a swap business has a responsibility to set clear policies dealing with the way they work with their customers and what order they work on customer cars. I can tell you that my policy has always been first-come, first served on a scheduling basis. I don't allow people on my schedule to "cut in line" in front of other people nor do I have the room to work on two swaps at the same time. Perhaps some day when I am ready to hire help out in the shop I can take on more than one job at a time. But I am not there yet. Even when I do get to that point I can assure you that nobody is going to cut in line in front of somebody else, except concerning my personal family emergencies.
In closing, I think people in the Fiero community need to realize that you can't rush quality or custom work. An engine swap for a Fiero is a big investment for most people so you should get what you are paying for. I also believe the customer should expect the project to be completed in a reasonable amount of time but not at the expense of the quality of work they are paying for. I also think the person doing the swap should be truthful to the customer and not allow themselves to get put into positions that can cause problems like what you have seen occur in this thread...
Think of it this way.... What's more important; getting the swap done hastily to make a car show or meet that comes around every year, or having the work done right the first time?
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and I don't know all of the facts of the subject matter that is being discussed/argued in this thread so I am not commenting on it, specifically. But I did want to offer my view on engine swaps in general so people in the Fiero community don't get a false impression about what one could expect when having a swap done by someone else. Again, a swap should be considered an investment, and you should get a good return on your investment. But expect to get what you pay for as well...
-ryan
------------------ power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely. Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com
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03:34 PM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
Ok lets drop the time limit stuff, If you read this guys post there's alot of flaky weird info in what he had posted and after reading it several times, There is alot of things in his post that still don't add up.
He mentions something about having a helper, Why in the heck was none of these helpers in this thread? The only helpers I seen was the customer himself and his friend.
He mentions the 3.4 pushrod engine having that much hp, Hmmm we all know better then that.
He says he's going to eat the $2000 grand on the engine, Then says he's going to end up putting it in someone elses car, That is not eating the 2 grand then. And there is a thing called a refund or canceled order.
You say you pleaded to give him a return, if I seen my car sit there untouched after paying my money, I would of took your first offer at a refund, Im sure he would to.
You said you offered him a Dune Buggy ????????? Im not going to comment on this because that is just plain sad.
ok you say you brought a fiero for jimmy to drive and paid 2k for this, This is a waste of time in my opinion
You say he came and helped do the easy part, HE HELPED PULL THE OLD ENGINE AND PUT THE NEW ONE IN !! I do not call that easy.
Why in the heck are you saying it will be ok to remove you from this forum, Sounds kinda like your amiting guilt or something, If I posted something defending myself and knew Im right, I sure in the heck would not say it would be fine to remove me. Yes I know there are 2 sides of the story to every case, But Kitcarmans side just don't add up
Now about the quaility work in swaps (like mentioned above) I have a build thread on this forum somewhere, And I certaintly did not cut any corners when it came to buying certain parts for my swap, My swap was also a very cleanly done swap, I also made my own mounts (my car uses a 5 point mounting system 2 transmission mounts 2 engine mounts and a dogbone mount) And most importantly, My car is dependable. In fact when doing work on my fiero (I love my fiero) Im very anal at getting something just perfect.
[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 11-09-2006).]
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05:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dirty Harry Member
Posts: 347 From: Orlando, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2003
JR was paid $3,500.00 upon delivery of the car. That makes total payment to him for the sum of $8,000.00 for a uncompleted job. OK here is what I found upon return of the car Thursday night.
This was not broke when I took him the car.
Heater core was not connected as he claimed if was in a email he sent to me.
First off let me start by saying that those of you who think this is a one sided story... I have kept all of JR's emails and I have 3 different wittnesses on 3 different occassions to back up everything I claim. Next on to JR's post...
JR...And Now the Real Story. Originally James wanted a 3.4 Crate engine and cam.
Me...I said that in the very first post starting this thread.
JR...No problem a week long job once crate engine and cam and rockers arrived. And something my helpers could do. Basically a bolt in except for drilling the extra starter hole. And yes it will get 220-230 HP
Me...I went to JR's on 7 different days thoughout the last 4 months and have taken 3 different people with me and never once did I or anyone else see any helpers. To this day I still have not met or seen these phantom helpers. And NO the car would not have 220-230HP!
JR...Then in 4 recordered messages in a paniced voice he wanted a 3800SC now. So he changed to a 3800 SuperCharged motor. Completely not understanding that the original 3.4 was an easy job, and the 3800SC was not. I said ok, even though I was now eating the $2,300.00 or so for the cam and rockers and the GM crate engine. I could use it for next 3.4 customer.
Me... It took 4 days to respond to my voicemail messages. I left 1 message per day till he called back. I even have my cell phone records to prove every call made to him and calls he made to me throughout this whole mess. I DID understand that it was a more difficult swap thats why in my first post on this thread I even said he told me that and that he would need a couple extra weeks. When I decided to switch motors he told me that it was no problem cause the crate motor hadn't come in yet and he would just cancel the order. I even told him that if it was a problem then he could just stick with the original plan of the 3.4. 7 times at JR's and this crate motor was nowhere to be seen.
JR...In the mean time he was 3rd in line for doing his car.
Me...When I first contacted JR about doing a swap it was 1 months prior to taking him the car and when first contact was made, I was third in line. After co-ordinating WITH him on a day to bring the car I took the car to him and the ONLY car ahead of me was the F40. The day the car was dropped off, the 3800 had already been ordered and he told me that by the time the 3800 would arrive that the F40 would be heading off to paint and he could start on my car. To this day the F40 STILL has not made it off to paint.
JR...Needless to say he bullied his way into us doing it sooner. (Probably his original plan as he delivered his car) (before the GM crate motor arrived and we were ready for his job) Now had to order an all new engine and parts. I said it would be started when a 40rty was at paint. Again, before his now expanded and more time consuming 3800SC engine job. But his bullieing got me to work on his sooner. *And yes "BULLINEING" is my interpertation of the events.*
Me...Your damn right I got him to FINALLY work on my car after 3 months! That F40 was supposed to be into paint within 7-10 days of dropping my car off to him.
JR...Finally got rid of the 3800SC auto conversion from a 4spd 3800SC done. That was about the point he got worse.
Me...That car got there about a month and a half after mine! Later on 1 of my days up there I asked him where it went and he said to me...The guy begged me to get it done so I did it for him. Damn right I got worse! You did his before mine even though I was about to loose my transportation that work let me use.
JR...I have lost track of the numerous times I offered and finally BEGGED him to take a FULL refund and go elsewhere, he has ALWAYS refused. Now I've expended way to much money and time for a refund. The Last time I BEGGED and PLEADED with him and offered a FULL REFUND the front ball joints were done and we had made and installed front grand am brakes. All would have been done for FREE and I said I would deliver the car to anywhere and anybody of his choice for doing the 3800SC swap. James again REFUSED FULL REFUND and FREE DELIVERY of his Car ANYWHERE.
Me... JR offered a refund 1 time! 2 months after I dropped the car off to him. When I asked how long it would be till he could have it done and he said 2 weeks I told him to just go ahead and finish it. JR never offered to take the car anywhere! I told JR to his face that I had contacted a attorney and he needed to complete this car by such a date and I didn't care if he had to take the car to somone else and pay them to do it for him!
JR... I also offered him my 3/4 ton chevy van 5 or 6 times and also my dune buggy for him to drive but he also refused those offers.
Me... He offered to bring me a dune buggy (with no top) with the VAN PLATES ON IT! I said NO WAY!
JR... on "HIS" recommendation even drove to port st lucie and bought a fiero and got it titled and insured and licensed for him to drive . (What James SAID he Wanted, alas another Futal attempt to make James happy) The port lucie car did over heat when I hauled it down to him. It would have been a simple fix by wiring the fan on always. But now it sits here at the car farm. 87 gt V6 auto for sale if somebody wants it. And me out $1960.00 MORE expended on his behalf. (car+insurance+tag+title) Not including the time and gas all wasted trying to make James happy. (which I now believe is probably not possible)
Me... JR made a comment to me on 1 of my visits up there that he wished he knew of someone selling a Fiero at a good price so he could have a loaner vehicle for his customers. I told him about 1 I had seen on autotrader.com for $1,200.00 which had a motor replacement done to it with a new motor that now had around 50,000 miles on it. He asked me to email him the persons contact info and I did so when I got home from his house. JR called this person (17yr old kid) and went over there and bought the car. 2 days later he towed the car down to me on a 2 wheel dolly for me to drive. When Jr got here the battery was dead and I had to use my jumper box to get it to start. My GF followed me the 4.7 miles in the Fiero to work so I could drop off my work truck. When she pulled into my work there was smoke pouring out of the right rear and out of the hood. I called JR right away to turn around and head back. I knew he couldn't have made it far away cause it was only about 10 mins since he had left. When he got to my work he said to me and my GF that he probably should have test driven the car before he bought it! My GF and I both blurted out..."You didn't even test drive the car"? He then took the POS back with him.
JR...PS again: James also got for FREE aluminum dash overlays.
Me...The Tuesday I was up there helping him I asked to see the dash overlays he had on his web sight. I told him that I was not a fan of alumn. overlays but was curious to see them and how they fit. He told me that he gave more of them away than he sold. He had 2 complete GT sets. While I was looking at them I got the idea of powder coating them and offered to buy a set and asked him how much he wanted for a set. He said I could have them for free cause he was just going to throw them away anyway.
JR...He was going to get a FREE evap core, but not now. Also got FREE install of his new front end parts.
Me...FREE???? That was part of the extra $700.00 I was paying you!!!!!
Now on to more recent events... After the comment from JR..."Things happen and the car will be done when its done" I knew I could not talk to him any further cause at that point I was boiling mad! My GF trying to be the voice of reason called him on Monday 11/6/06 and left him a message to call her. He returned her call Tuesday 11/07/06. She inquired as to whether we could have the car back in time for the Fall Haul. He told her that he spent the whole day Monday trying to find the exhaust tips and that he was currently on the way to pick up a set and that we will have the car back on Friday 11/10/06. At this point everything was calm and polite between the 2 of them. On tuesday evening she called and left him another message asking whether or not he got the exhaust tips. On Wednesday 11/8/06 afternoon he returned her call saying that they were not the right exhaust tips and he found a guy who was going to mail him the right exhaust tips. He then told her that they would be there the next day. He then told her he was going to work on the brakes since the tips wouldnt be there until Thursday. Then he told her that he wouldnt bring the car down until he got paid. She told him I would not pay for the car until I had it. He then told her that 4 people had called him and told him that I was suing him. She told him there was no way I could sue him cause he has bled me dry. I didnt have the money to sue him cause I had to go and buy another car to get around in since work would no longer let me use the work truck. He told her to bad, he went and spent $2000 on a car that I wouldnt drive. She told him that was his fault since he didnt even test drive it and it wasnt safe to be on the road. Then he got nasty with her and started yelling and cussing at her. She tried to stay nice and tell him that there was no reason for this, that she was just trying to get this done so everyone can go on with there lives but he started being even nastier to her telling her there way no way he was giving me the car without getting paid cause he "knows" I am suing him. She told him he would not get the money until I got the car and he told her that I owed him $4200 and that is with the discount he was giving me for it not being done.
At that point she called me to tell me what had just happened. Now I am beyond furious! I called him and got down right nasty telling him that he was F#$%^&G with the wrong person. He hung up on me. I called him back and left him a message to return my call. He called me back later that night and my first words were let me get some things straight! You told my GF that I owed you $4,200.00 and that was giving me a discount? He said yes. I said lets break this down... The agreement was for $8,500.00 and that included the extras? He said yes. I said that I had already paid $4,500.00 of that? He said yes. That leaves $4,000.00? He said yes. We added the coilovers at $126.00? He said more like $182.00! I said that he did not buy the coilovers I told him to get from where I told him to get them from (HTMotorsports) and that if he paid more for them then that was his problem! Now the balance is back up to $4,126.00? He said yes. We also added the front brake conversion for $200.00? He said yes. Now the balance is up to $4,326.00? He said yes. Now we subtract $86.00 that the hotel charged me when I cancelled my reservation for the Run To The Keys? He said yes. That leaves a balance of $4,240.00 He said yes. You told my GF that I owed you $4,200.00 and that was with a discount? He said yes. I said thanks for the $40.00 discount for all the trouble "YOU" have caused me!!!!!
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08:56 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Wow a stock GTP fusebox in a fiero, now I have seen everything....
Why somone would put an extra 5lbs of wires and a box in for a few extra fused circuts has to be clinicly insane. The fiero circut box worked fine for the 2.8, why not just use it for the 3.8 too?
Its just plain sad now that you have paid him so much money for even an incomplete car.
) My return line has transmission rubber hose going into alluminum tubing flared. My main feed line is all metal The alluminum tubing cost me 25bucks and works great. 
You have been patient and have shown great restraint , If it was me I don't know what I would of done. Him taking this long is BS, And I can tell that this guy does not even have the right tools for this swap and is outright lazy, If I was paid money to do someone swap I would do it like I was doing my own car, You paid him money for services, allowing this guy to take even longer is BS, taking 6months on that is crazy, Most good swappers will beable to do your exhaust and ect on there own and not need a exhaust shop to finish that. 
