quote Originally posted by AJ7: finally found somewhere to get the metal.... and someone told me it was ALOT cheaper.... 11 1/2"x4ft 1/8"thick Titanium = $2500... so.... lol not so sure about the titanium anymore but definatley steel and i'm working on figuring out something else to use that is still strong, light and doesnt rust, i dont give up easily..... lol thinking of making them out of a strong plastic..like polycarbonate plastic or maybe..fiberglass?(just a thaught) (remember there are plastics that are stronger than steel)

Strength in numbers is also strength in layers when it comes to steel.. How thick are they supposed to be?, you mentioned 1/8", But the ones I see on here look a hell of alot thicker than that..

No reason you couldnt make them in laminated layers of 1/8" or 3/16ths plate and plug-weld the layers as one then tig the entire outer edge.., your NOT going to be bending that anytime soon.. and since its more of a side-load that would be like trying to bend a 1" bar lengthwise by hand.... never happen

What we need is someone to measure the "full set" that reaches to both OEM hinge brackets and go from there..

What I mean is the ones that grab both sets of hinges on the door and the post.. not just one at the top..

Measuerements, Drawings.. all the stuff we have all collected on the subject should be posted here... then we could all finger it out and make some.. DIY

Rob

quote Originally posted by BERKELUSA: Strength in numbers is also strength in layers when it comes to steel.. How thick are they supposed to be?, you mentioned 1/8", But the ones I see on here look a hell of alot thicker than that.. No reason you couldnt make them in laminated layers of 1/8" or 3/16ths plate and plug-weld the layers as one then tig the entire outer edge.., your NOT going to be bending that anytime soon.. and since its more of a side-load that would be like trying to bend a 1" bar lengthwise by hand.... never happen What we need is someone to measure the "full set" that reaches to both OEM hinge brackets and go from there.. What I mean is the ones that grab both sets of hinges on the door and the post.. not just one at the top.. Measuerements, Drawings.. all the stuff we have all collected on the subject should be posted here... then we could all finger it out and make some.. DIY Rob

1/4" and 3/8" thick is what i'm using.

"What we need is someone to measure the "full set" that reaches to both OEM hinge brackets and go from there..

What I mean is the ones that grab both sets of hinges on the door and the post.. not just one at the top.."

dont need one on the bottom for my designe, and i plan on making it universal and it is kind of hard to make a universal kit that bolts to all the stock locations.(impossible) it will be strong, it will work.

quote dont need one on the bottom for my designe

you need to make it attach to the bottom or it will bend the car or door.
when i first designed mine it only attached at the top and it bent the door and i had to rework it to get it to shut right. the doors are really heavy

the only way you could do it is to re-inforce the door and frame. if you are goign to do that you may as well just have it attach on the bottom as well.

Sorry BERKELUSA their in the car . I'll look and see if I have the pattern still . I didn't think about saving it at the time I made them , but I still have the warranty card and some paper work in a pile on my tool box I'll go threw them and see .

quote Originally posted by UCFieroCharger: you need to make it attach to the bottom or it will bend the car or door. when i first designed mine it only attached at the top and it bent the door and i had to rework it to get it to shut right. the doors are really heavy the only way you could do it is to re-inforce the door and frame. if you are goign to do that you may as well just have it attach on the bottom as well.

it will have plates on both sides of where it mounts.. there are other kits out there that only mount on the top, and they work... and like i said above, it would have to be an exact bolt on for the fiero to have it go to the bottom too because its different. i want to make them universal later on, and i cant really do that and keep the same designe... i'd have to redo most of it.

i'll wait and see what other people think(the ones that have said they wanted a kit). i wont sell them until they work BETTER than other kits. i'm going to put the prototype on my camaro first, that should be good enough of a test considering its a longer door than the fiero(pretty sure) me and my friend are confident it will work with the plates on the back side of the mounting points. it will all bolt together tight, re-inforce, and be fairly simple to install.. and like i said before.. its just the prototype, theres always room for improvement..

im just curious, but does anyone know the actual weight of one of the doors? no power options.

quote Originally posted by UCFieroCharger: im just curious, but does anyone know the actual weight of one of the doors? no power options.

does it weigh more than a camaro door? i dont know why it would..... i keep hearing fiero's have heavy doors??? they cant weigh much over 100 if that....

They are extremely heavy in comparision to other car doors, they weigh 76 lbs without skin or interior. You went into this designing hinges without even finding out how much weight they would need to support?!?

Last time i picked one up, i would guess that it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-80 lbs for a power one. I was just curious if anyone knew for sure.
im still looking for a strut for my hinges :-P

im guessing by looking at your design that the doors open slightly before goign up. how many degrees are the doors opening?

im still curious about how the place where you mount the hinges isnt goign to flex under the weight of the door. does anyone have hinges that just bolt on the top? again, im not saying its not going to work, but im a little skeptical after i made mine. I was sure that they were goign to work, and they did. it just bent the metal on the door and body and i had to reshape it to put the origional hinges back on until i could rework my design.

once i saw what the hinges did, i sat down and did some math and figured that the pin that the door lifts on has 120 ft lbs of torque on it that needs to be lifted (that is what the strut lifts). then i looked at where the body twisted and the two bolt holes are about 2 in apart. that means that if the all the weight from the door is on those two bolts evenly then they are twisting the body or door with 60+ ftlbs of torque

is that too much for that spot to handle?

i understand that the actual size of the mounting face that bolts to the door and body affects the ammount of pressure that is put on those two points where the bolts go through the body. the larger the face, the better the pressure is spread out. the mounting face that i had on mine was 25 sq in and it bent.

Again, im not saying yours wont work, I just have a few questions about it. Im assuming youve done some resarch on it just as i have, but im hopeing that maybe you found somethign i didnt, like how to keep the body from doing that or something. If you do find out that there is a problem with it, after you get it on a car. I have a design that maybe you could try.

But none the less best wishes on it and hopefully it works. it would be nice if someone coudl sell them for less than $1000.

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: They are extremely heavy in comparision to other car doors, they weigh 76 lbs without skin or interior. You went into this designing hinges without even finding out how much weight they would need to support?!?

lol... i went into designing them for 200lb+ doors... because i want them to be strong and i plan on making them universal.

I did use the stock location for the bolts the first time. i havent put on my redesigned set, i have no where to work on my car anymore, but it bolts on top and bottom

how are you goign to get that plate onto the backside? there is a small hole, maybe 4x4, maybe someoen could measure it to help AJ out? you guys all knwo the whole im talking about. another question. you said before that you didnt want to make it mount on the bottom and the top because it would be impossible to make one to fit all fieros, but if you have four bolts on the top then we would have to modify the car anyways to get it to bolt on. if you modify it you could make it so you dont have any problems. Just be cautious of body flexing and such when you are testing it.

and yeah, threading to the inside would definitly be best, i dont think anyone would enjoy trying to stick their had into the hole. but could i suggest making 3 on the door and not 2, 2 creates a line on which the plates can move. 3 provides a plane and would hold a million times better.

I do agree that if you make it tight enough it would be 'like' welding. do you think that laying a bead of weld around it would probably be a good idea anyways? to keep it from slipping. or maybe texture the plates so they grip the surface?

im just throwing some ideas out there(finish your prototype first! then modify as needed). I would really hate to see this flop

quote Originally posted by UCFieroCharger: I did use the stock location for the bolts the first time. i havent put on my redesigned set, i have no where to work on my car anymore, but it bolts on top and bottom how are you goign to get that plate onto the backside? there is a small hole, maybe 4x4, maybe someoen could measure it to help AJ out? you guys all knwo the whole im talking about. another question. you said before that you didnt want to make it mount on the bottom and the top because it would be impossible to make one to fit all fieros, but if you have four bolts on the top then we would have to modify the car anyways to get it to bolt on. if you modify it you could make it so you dont have any problems. Just be cautious of body flexing and such when you are testing it.

if someone would measure that would be great, i figure there is a way to do it on MOST cars... and i plan on making them universal later on.

you should only have to drill holes, maybe not on the doors, still havent gotten that far... i'm not too worried about body flexing, it wont be a problem after i'm done, and i'm not sure yet but the stock bolt holes might need to be filled in. alot of small details left to work out.... but they will be better this way.

quote and yeah, threading to the inside would definitly be best, i dont think anyone would enjoy trying to stick their hand into the hole. but could i suggest making 3 on the door and not 2, 2 creates a line on which the plates can move. 3 provides a plane and would hold a million times better.

i was leaning towards 3... and yes it would be much easier if they were threaded, and the hinges will come apart easy so you can put the main plate up to the car to mark where to drill..

quote I do agree that if you make it tight enough it would be 'like' welding. do you think that laying a bead of weld around it would probably be a good idea anyways? to keep it from slipping. or maybe texture the plates so they grip the surface?

well yes it would probly be a good idea, but i only plan on making about 10 steel kits.. then they will be strengthened urethane(it will look nicer and last longer).

quote im just throwing some ideas out there(finish your prototype first! then modify as needed). I would really hate to see this flop

it keeps me motivated thanx for the ideas, you've answered a few of my questions without me asking

AJ

quote Originally posted by GODFATHER: Sorry BERKELUSA their in the car . I'll look and see if I have the pattern still . I didn't think about saving it at the time I made them , but I still have the warranty card and some paper work in a pile on my tool box I'll go threw them and see .

Thanks anyway.. I'll go from scratch.. water-jet cut plates, laminated, swing out then UP.. etc

But hey can we see some pics of your setup either way???

and AJ7 a few QUESTIONS:

What kind of welder are you using? MIG? flux-core or gas?

Are those demo hinges made to swing out a little then scissor-up? - If not I dont see it happening as the latches would be useless unless modified to hit the striker from the top and the shape of the door wont allow it at the front fender.., The pivot point for it to work would be well-above the fender itself...

If you mentioned that already just shoot me.. lol

Rob

[This message has been edited by BERKELUSA (edited 12-01-2005).]

quote Originally posted by BERKELUSA: Are those demo hinges made to swing out a little then scissor-up? - If not I dont see it happening as the latches would be useless unless modified to hit the striker from the top and the shape of the door wont allow it at the front fender.., The pivot point for it to work would be well-above the fender itself...

Most "off-the-shelf" lambo kits need to open out, then up to resolve the latch correctly. If it swings out enough, it also allows you to sneak in & out of the car without lifting the door... if you're not looking to attract attention at that moment in time (this is something mentioned by a current Lambo-Door Fiero owner ).

As for whether or not they have to swing out then up... not exactly. I owned (but never installed) a set of Street Dreams lambo door hinges. They way they were mounted, the door swung at a constant angle & pivot hinge (very nicely made) - and from talking to Ross over there... he indicated that he never changed the stock latching mechanism. Just a note!

quote Originally posted by BERKELUSA: and AJ7 a few QUESTIONS: What kind of welder are you using? MIG? flux-core or gas? Are those demo hinges made to swing out a little then scissor-up? - If not I dont see it happening as the latches would be useless unless modified to hit the striker from the top and the shape of the door wont allow it at the front fender.., The pivot point for it to work would be well-above the fender itself... If you mentioned that already just shoot me.. lol Rob

for the first one, MIG. secend... well i need a gun emoticon.... lol

When will they be done? And whats the cost goin to be? 500-550$ + shipping? any idea what shipping will be?

------------------

quote Originally posted by 86_FiErO_GT: When will they be done? And whats the cost goin to be? 500-550$ + shipping? any idea what shipping will be?

quote price will be $650 with 4 struts, everything you need..

they should be ready sometime in Jan-Feb.

shipping.... not sure, shouldnt be any more than 50 in the US...

[This message has been edited by AJ7 (edited 12-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AJ7: [QUOTE]I do agree that if you make it tight enough it would be 'like' welding. do you think that laying a bead of weld around it would probably be a good idea anyways? to keep it from slipping. or maybe texture the plates so they grip the surface?

well yes it would probly be a good idea, but i only plan on making about 10 steel kits.. then they will be strengthened urethane(it will look nicer and last longer).

quote im just throwing some ideas out there(finish your prototype first! then modify as needed). I would really hate to see this flop

it keeps me motivated thanx for the ideas, you've answered a few of my questions without me asking

AJ

[/QUOTE]

I don't want to sound like a downer but I have to say that a "plastic" door hinge as complex as this does not sound like a good idea? You may argue that the plastic you want to use is "stronger" but I would say that the plastic (ANY PLASTIC) you use on a complex door hinge like this is going to flex. The door needs to be very solid as you close it or the striker will not line up in the door latch. This will cause the door to shut with "poor feel and quality" Have you ever tried to shut a door that is not hung right? It causes the door striker and latch to wear out fast and the door will get harder and harder to shut. The flexing door hinge will cause intermittent misalignment as the door bounces both up and down and also twist. A twisting and flexing door hinge will cause body damage too The door skin will gouge into the door seal aria at first then maybe even break the door glass if the door twists far enough as you shut the door with the window up?
Then there is the "sagging" of the plastic door hinge to think about. The door is VERY heavy and will bend the plastic hinge over time. How long will it take before the plastic hinge is bent out of shape? Day's? Week's? Years?

There is no advantage to going with the plastic hinge, only undo risk of breakage and short service life (if any at all). Just do it with conventional steel.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: The door is VERY heavy and will bend the plastic hinge over time. How long will it take before the plastic hinge is bent out of shape? Day's? Week's? Years? There is no advantage to going with the plastic hinge, only undo risk of breakage and short service life (if any at all). Just do it with conventional steel.

it wont bend, not even over time.. if urethane Does bend, it pops right back into shape. but the urethane i'll be using is the hardest urethane on the market right now. 90D hardness, its like 1"Steel tubing... it will be 1/2" thick maybe a little more.. and with my new designe it will actually be stronger. i'll prove it wont bend.

[This message has been edited by AJ7 (edited 12-02-2005).]

A suggestion re: urethane hinges vs. general skepticism (including mine):

No clue how many lurkers there are, but I have yet to notice anyone in here other than yourself have any confidence in the idea of using urethane as the hinge material. So if you want to sell the urethane variant, you'll have to convince people that it's just as good, if not better than steel.

Jumping up and down on a piece of the material likely won't cut it. Installing a set on your Camaro and opening/closing the doors a few times probably won't get you much further.

My suggestion (from strictly a consumer point of view):

Start with the steel. Get a few sets out there, impress people with your design and the qualty of the steel sets. Do not abandon the steel sets entirely at this point.

Once you have established that your design & workmanship with steel is sound, make a small number of urethane models. Offer them on "loan" to willing guinea pigs which have already purchased/installed steel sets and are willing to compare the two, or offer them at cost to others who are willing to be your field testers. One condition of being a field tester, is that the individual must agree to provide a fair comment on the urethane hinges, and allow you to publish/use it at your leisure. If the urethane can be thus proven to be a suitable material, only then would I consider discontinuing the steel version.

One of the problems is that if the urethane is unsuitable for any reason, it poses a safety risk to those entering/exiting the vehicle (do you really want a 90lb door falling on you???), and a safety risk to other drivers (what if the hinges fail and the door parts company with the car at speed?).

Another point of contention is durability. Steel hinges already have a proven track record, and so do the bushing/bearing materials commonly used with them. I question how well the urethane will hold up over time, especially on vehicles subject to extremes of heat & cold. (not to mention how well your choice of gas struts will perform at -20°C, but that's another story)

I'll be damned if I'll pay full price to be part of what I see as an experiment, however if you give me the right incentive I'll install a set and document them until I'm blue in the face. If they prove to be everything you claim, I'll wave a flag for you until my arm falls off. If they suck donkey balls, I'll provide as much constructive criticism as possible.

Not trying to be a cheap prick here; just want help by giving you one person's perspective of this urethane idea.

quote question how well the urethane will hold up over time, especially on vehicles subject to extremes of heat & cold.

alot of metal parts are replaced with urethane, because urethane is better for extreme enviroments(sp?), less wear,etc...

i plan on putting bricks on the sides of a tire and a hinge part across the 2 and setting the car on it to prove the strenghth.
are you saying that wouldnt be enough proof of the strength? i will send a kit or 2 to different people on here to put them on and try them out thereselves, then they can post there comments on here.

quote One of the problems is that if the urethane is unsuitable for any reason, it poses a safety risk to those entering/exiting the vehicle (do you really want a 90lb door falling on you???), and a safety risk to other drivers (what if the hinges fail and the door parts company with the car at speed?).

same goes for steel...

[This message has been edited by AJ7 (edited 12-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by AJ7: alot of metal parts are replaced with urethane for that reason, urethane is better for extreme enviroments(sp?).

Examples, please. ...and don't say automotive body panels. Show me examples of load-bearing components which in one or more applications, have been changed from steel to urethane and have fared as well as steel or better.

quote i plan on putting bricks on the sides of a tire and a hinge part across the 2 and setting the car on it to prove the strenghth.are you saying that wouldnt be enough proof of the strength?

Depends upon how the load is applied. Such a test is only partially useful if the stress placed on the material does not mimic the loads it would experience while in normal use.

For example, I don't care that the narrow edge of a popsicle stick is capable of supporting a lead brick if in every-day use the brick is to be supported by the stick's widest surface.

quote One of the problems is that if the urethane is unsuitable for any reason, it poses a safety risk to those entering/exiting the vehicle (do you really want a 90lb door falling on you???), and a safety risk to other drivers (what if the hinges fail and the door parts company with the car at speed?). same goes for steel...

True, but I say again: properly welded and machined steel has a proven track record for this particular application. To the best of my knowledge, urethane does not. The fact that a hinge of either material faces the same safety issues is irrelevant--it is the ability of the relatively unknown material which is of concern.

Just trying to help, man. It would be disappointing to see you go out on a limb with the urethane, only to have it flop because potential customers don't have any confidence in the material.

i guess there isnt anything else to say about it, i'll just have to make some and prove it will work first, like i planned on doing...

remember there are alot of different types of urethane, and different strengths..

finally found a good site. http://www.sunray-inc.com/techdata.html

i will prob buy a set, but would like to see final product and what is included and final price

i tend to think that if ANY urethane (or composite) material was better than steel, why isn't the big 3 using it now on standard hinges? price? availability? machineability? workability? or.....not the correct material?

just some food for thought. it may work. but have you ran the numbers on the material you're thinking about? how many cycles can it take before wearing out. when it does (and it will) wear out, can parts be replaced or is the whole hinge shot? lots of materials are stronger than steel per square inch but that doesn't make them a better choice for a particular application. i'm a mechanical engineer so it's my job to question materials. if it were me, i would not look at anything other than steel (for the cost) or stainless steel.

quote Originally posted by shawnkfl: i tend to think that if ANY urethane (or composite) material was better than steel, why isn't the big 3 using it now on standard hinges? price? availability? machineability? workability? or.....not the correct material? just some food for thought. it may work. but have you ran the numbers on the material you're thinking about? how many cycles can it take before wearing out. when it does (and it will) wear out, can parts be replaced or is the whole hinge shot? lots of materials are stronger than steel per square inch but that doesn't make them a better choice for a particular application. i'm a mechanical engineer so it's my job to question materials. if it were me, i would not look at anything other than steel (for the cost) or stainless steel.

read the link above.... it tells alot about urethane. the urethane that i would be using is 90D hardness, and would be strengthened.. i would like to know what you think about it since your a mechanical engineer, you might be able to point out some things ive over looked. but my friend that is helping me with this went to college for plastics, he knows all about the different kinds, strengths, etc... he is pretty sure it will be just as good and its urethane.. so it wont rust, its lighter, and has longer wear life. everything else you might need to know is on the link above, and it will be 1/2"(or thicker) by 2"(or slightly smaller).

quote why isn't the big 3 using it now on standard hinges? price? availability? machineability? workability? or.....not the correct material?

why would they use something better when they can make more money from people buying replacements when the other parts wear out? with any product, its all about the $$$ for most people, i'm LOWERING the price for everyone here, i'll be selling them as universal kits later on for $200 more. i know its not a direct bolt on kit, but its a simple install, all you have to do is drill holes and bolt on.... if i made it a direct bolt on it would cost more, and add about 5lbs each side or more.. at this point i'm still open to new ideas, this is just what looks the best right now. i've already said i will send the first steel kit to someone and they will make a build thread and tell you what they think and do the same for the first urethane kit. why keep questioning it? i'm doing the research needed, i'm not going to sell something that isnt going to work right or break, i want people to be happy with it so i can sell more.

I agree with AJ7. Yeah it is a different idea than most people would ever dream of, but also, (as far as I know) nobody has tried it yet. I think everyone should just put aside their doubts until we see a final result. I'm not saying I totally think it will work, but I am very anxious to see if it will. And if you don't have any faithe in it, don't buy them, go buy professionally made steel hinges, and pay over a grand. AJ7 is trying to do us a favor by making cheap hinges. Everyone should just give them a chance. -mark

quote Originally posted by V8IndyProject: I agree with AJ7. Yeah it is a different idea than most people would ever dream of, but also, (as far as I know) nobody has tried it yet. I think everyone should just put aside their doubts until we see a final result. I'm not saying I totally think it will work, but I am very anxious to see if it will. And if you don't have any faithe in it, don't buy them, go buy professionally made steel hinges, and pay over a grand. AJ7 is trying to do us a favor by making cheap hinges. Everyone should just give them a chance. -mark

thank you

Lurker here...

Hey I live in a -40 environment. Sell me a set of your urethane for half price and ill test them. If they hold up here. they will anywhere.

quote Originally posted by DOHC_SWAPPER: Lurker here... Hey I live in a -40 environment. Sell me a set of your urethane for half price and ill test them. If they hold up here. they will anywhere.

lmao.... -40!?

AJ7

I have been following this post for sometime and have not kept up totally. Will your kit fit the Fino body and if so what will the price be? Will I have to do a lot of work fitting them to make them work?

Thank you
Ed

------------------
Fino
www.edstephens.com
Member National Kit Car Club

quote Originally posted by Fino: AJ7 I have been following this post for sometime and have not kept up totally. Will your kit fit the Fino body and if so what will the price be? Will I have to do a lot of work fitting them to make them work? Thank you Ed

not sure if it will fit the fino... depends on the fender clearence, if its about the same as the fiero there shouldnt be a problem.

all you will have to do is, line everything up, drill holes, bolt on (after you get everything out of the way ). not sure on the price yet, i'm still working on the material it will be made out of.... after i find out i'll be sure on the price, but it should be close to $650

quote Originally posted by AJ7: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fino: AJ7 I have been following this post for sometime and have not kept up totally. Will your kit fit the Fino body and if so what will the price be? Will I have to do a lot of work fitting them to make them work? Thank you Ed

not sure if it will fit the fino... depends on the fender clearence, if its about the same as the fiero there shouldnt be a problem.

all you will have to do is, line everything up, drill holes, bolt on (after you get everything out of the way ). not sure on the price yet, i'm still working on the material it will be made out of.... after i find out i'll be sure on the price, but it should be close to $650

[/QUOTE]

AJ7

The fender clearence is very different, I'll wait to see how they work.

Thank you
Ed

------------------
Fino
www.feroce.us
Member National Kit Car Club

how close is the fender to the frame?

I dont now how I have been missing this thread,

I am still in for a set, at this point I just want a set well ok a good set

I will now keep a good eye on this thread, like I said " I wont a set"
please put me on what ever list you got.

jsshark1

I havn't seen this thread either... I would like a set when they are finished. Can't beat the price. Looks good so far.