Big Block, you have my attention...

Any hp/torque numbers?

[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 12-04-2006).]

RacerX11 is correct, I made a mistake. Joe Wyman calls out using those parts from a '91 Calais. That was the original donor I went to the junkyard looking for. Then we determined that the correct parts would come from a '91 Cierra.

For those of you who don't know, Joe Wyman wrote a "Guideline" cd for this conversion. Although it contained many minor mistakes ( I believe it was written, but not edited ) it pretty much walked you thru the entire conversion, and provided those who did see it with inspiration.

David Breeze

what year/model caddy is your 500 from???

I used a 75 El Dorado 500 with the 425 trans.. the 500 was rated at 500hp & 500 ft lbs torque by GM. I was runing a 4 barrel holley dont know the cfm it came already on the engine. My El would hook and get.. I ran 3 runs at Alamo Drag with it befor they shut it down.. best time was a 15.8 1/4 and that was with no exhaust system and old street tires LOL. I have the vid somewhere but its 8mm

(edit for typos)

[This message has been edited by NSAN1T (edited 12-04-2006).]

Is that Joe Wyman information available?

Jim

quote Originally posted by NSAN1T: what year/model caddy is your 500 from??? I used a 75 El Dorado 500 with the 425 trans.. the 500 was rated at 500hp & 500 ft lbs torque by GM. I was runing a 4 barrel holley dont know the cfm it came already on the engine. My El would hook and get.. I ran 3 runs at Alamo Drag with it befor they shut it down.. best time was a 15.8 1/4 and that was with no exhaust system and old street tires LOL. I have the vid somewhere but its 8mm (edit for typos)

You ran a 15.8 with 500hp/tq?

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1986 GT, LT1/4T60E. In the middle of cam/port, new interior, paint and waiting on new wheels. Itll blow you away!!
http://hometown.aol.com/ptfiero/index.html
build
http://dtcc.cz28.com/Customer/LT1Fiero/index.htm

quote Originally posted by Mr. Pat: You ran a 15.8 with 500hp/tq?

uhmm yeah.. as I said... the "EL" would hook and get.. as in the El Dorado :P that time was with the el at the track... not the 500 in the Fiero.. I only had it in the fiero for test fitting before I blew the engine in the caddy itself..

Sorry if I confused the situation lol

Hello all, those pics are of my big block chevy conversion in progress, sorry for any confussion that I caused. I had no intention of taking over this thread I was simply looking for info on the best possible axel/hub assembly.
Thanks to "Formula 88" for posting my pics, and thanks to "OPM2000" for his direction on finding a stronger alternative to using stock axels.
The bolt pattern isn't that important as I plan on running steel rims/slicks anyway. Same goes for the E-brake, I've seen mechanical line locks that would hold pressure in the rear braking system that could pass as a E-brake. Keep the suggestions comming and I'll send more pics as the build progresses. Later, John Miller

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: I beleve I need a different e-mail address to send picks. That one r-runner posted must not be his own or this dam machine is schooling me. Im not to good with computors or electronic stuff, I still cant post the pictures off my phone.

Sorry about that. I check this thread once a day in the evening.
It may have been blocked as you say. My bad. Anyway it looks like you found help. Still looking forward to pictures.
Paul

[This message has been edited by R Runner (edited 12-04-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Miller:

Hello all, those pics are of my big block chevy conversion in progress, sorry for any confussion that I caused. I had no intention of taking over this thread I was simply looking for info on the best possible axel/hub assembly.
Thanks to "Formula 88" for posting my pics, and thanks to "OPM2000" for his direction on finding a stronger alternative to using stock axels.
The bolt pattern isn't that important as I plan on running steel rims/slicks anyway. Same goes for the E-brake, I've seen mechanical line locks that would hold pressure in the rear braking system that could pass as a E-brake. Keep the suggestions comming and I'll send more pics as the build progresses. Later, John Miller[/QUOTE

In my first post I keep making edits to try to be as detailed as posible so this thread would serve as many people as possible and they know where to go to get up to speed. If someone wants to finish a BBF sooner and cheeper we can call this example stage one. With that out of the way everyone can then add to this for the stage two options or questions about stage one. You are doing a good job on stage two so go ahead and take over this thread all you want. I know someone made a link to pictures of my build but I dont know how to put them over to these threads. Those picks were before the car was finished and are lacking some structural detail. I now realise ive never taken in five years a picture of the compleated install, fuel injected with chrome valve covers.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-04-2006).]

From what I've been able to find, the '75 Caddy 500 did not have 500 HP / 500 lb-ft.

'70...500...4bbl...400 HP@4400...550 lb-ft@3000...10.0:1 compression

74-75...500...4bbl...210 HP@3600...380 lb-ft@2000...8.25:1 compression

If that's right, that's awfully close to the 4.9 with 200 hp, although the 4.9 only has 275 lb-ft of torque. No matter how much you choke an engine, it's almost impossible for 500 cubes not to have a ton of torque. Granted, that is stock during the low point of the 70's.

Source: http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Cadillac_engine_Knowledge

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-04-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: From what I've been able to find, the '75 Caddy 500 did not have 500 HP / 500 lb-ft. '70...500...4bbl...400 HP@4400...550 lb-ft@3000...10.0:1 compression 74-75...500...4bbl...210 HP@3600...380 lb-ft@2000...8.25:1 compression If that's right, that's awfully close to the 4.9 with 200 hp, although the 4.9 only has 275 lb-ft of torque. No matter how much you choke an engine, it's almost impossible for 500 cubes not to have a ton of torque. Granted, that is stock during the low point of the 70's. Source: http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Cadillac_engine_Knowledge

I couldnt tell you were I got the numbers from... I belive it was a 500ci performance page where they mod the 500s but this was in 2001-2002 and the numbers had GM backing to them too... 75 was an odd year for the engine.. then the 76 upped the hp and downed the tq as far as i know... hell my el dorados title didnt even say GM or caddy.. its was titled as a stretched limo!?!?!?!?

and as for the 15.8 sec 1/4 mile... that was after I got traction... It smoked the tires in first and chirped em in second... burnouts were fun in that car... I never made a clean run... always had to burn the tread on the 10yearold tires first LOL

ok well this page gives yet different numbers...

75 ELDORADO ENGINE
Engine type V-8 Overhead valves. Cast iron block
Displacement 500 cubic inches (8.2 L)
Bore & stroke 4.300 x 4.304 inches
Compression ratio 8.5:1
Brake horsepower (SAE gross) 365 @ 4400 rpm
Torque 535 @ 3000 rpm
Oil pressure 35-40
Main bearings five
Valve lifters Hydraulic
Carburetor Rochester four-barrel Quadrajet model 4MV (Eldorado type)

[This message has been edited by NSAN1T (edited 12-05-2006).]

BBF, you said in your first post that you race it at the dragstrip frequently, what is your best time? i dont believe that i have heard a time from your setup (and i know your not running 15.9).

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1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC
Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted
13* retard exhaust cam, FFP UDP, much more.
13.93@101mph as it is on the street

355/400hp sbc, 4 bolt main
spec stage 3, and many other extras.
87 GT 5-speed Getrag, power everything.

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: This car is street and drag raced every weekend throughout the summer. I came out of the water at 5000 rpm at grove creek dragstrip and suddenly hooked real hard as I went wide open throttle, the car went strait up and the axle didn't break so it is plenty strong.

since you have run it at the track, what times have you run, and can you back them up?

lol, i just asked that.

I dont relate well to 1/8th mile numbers but the mph was 91. That was on a stock 8 to 1 motor with a porkeys bag rammed in the air intake duct. When I first built the car I could hear intake noise when I floored the throttle but over time I thought the filter may be getting dirty because I no longer heard it.I thought the car was starting to hook better untill about a year latter I changed the filter and I still heard no intake noise. Thats when I discovered the porkeys bag that obviously was put there on purpose. My intake duct used to draw from one 6" duct fed from under the passenger side floor. I have been to rock falls a few times but al corda wont let me run because of tech inspection issues I had on my truck that he wouldnt let run wich caused arguement between us.He now wants the fiero to have A cage regardless of any projected times. I had a cedar falls trip fall thru last fall but nothing will stop me this spring. I'll try to find that 1/8th mile E.T. that may more closely represent a proper time. My son and girlfriend like the 1/8th mile because I let them drive the car. Let me know what 91 mph is close to in the quarter.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-06-2006).]

quote Originally posted by flames4me: lol, i just asked that.

i just wanted it quoted

Yeah............................this one time I went to the track & raced an LS-1 Camaro and only pulled an 11.79 @ 113 until I found a basketball stuffed in my intake.

[This message has been edited by PURPLE REIGN (edited 12-07-2006).]

quote Originally posted by PURPLE REIGN:

So I take it you didn't know or have anything to do with the porkeys bag based on this reaction. I remember one time I told A guy that his filter was to small and restrictive. After the change he went out and ran the same time (Ive seen opposite results as well). It could be that the bag allowed enough air to pass around it and thats all the car had in it at that time, I just dont know. Also I might add I was running a 25 percent mix of E-85 to lean an overly rich condition And the intake manifold was ported with the throttle shafts slabbed, otherwise compleatly stock.Al corda says he will let me run rock falls if I have A cage but the problem was he wont let me run even if I give him projected times that dont require A cage. After putting A cage in my truck he still wouldn't let me run. I think matts wrx went low twelves, I had A few mods when I raced him with no porkeys bag, do you know or remember what he ran?

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-06-2006).]

lol, i used to work at rock falls raceway for a couple months, Al can be very hard nosed about cirtain things. if you want, after i get my tranny replaced in my SBC fiero im going back to rock falls to race, you could come with, i might be able to talk to dave (the tech inspector) and get you to run at least one run. (it might help if your not the only fiero also)

you have torque which is good for that 1/8 mile, and its hard to predict an actual quarter mile time bacause of the hp/tq ratio. in my 3.4 DOHC fiero i run 13.9 @ 101mph, this is b/c i hook very well compared to other sport compacts with high rpm FWD turbo's they run 13.9 @120+. and i am a few car lengths ahead of them at the 1/8 mile even though we finished the same time.

P.S. i want to Cryo treat my new tranny for my v8, do you know anyone around here that does this?

------------------
1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC
Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted
13* retard exhaust cam, FFP UDP, much more.
13.93@101mph as it is on the street

355/400hp sbc, 4 bolt main
spec stage 3, and many other extras.
87 GT 5-speed Getrag, power everything.

quote Originally posted by flames4me: P.S. i want to Cryo treat my new tranny for my v8, do you know anyone around here that does this?

A place in Burnsville I used, called Frozen Rotors.com

[This message has been edited by PURPLE REIGN (edited 12-07-2006).]

quote Originally posted by PURPLE REIGN: Yeah............................this one time I went to the track & raced an LS-1 Camaro and only pulled an 11.79 @ 113 until I found a basketball stuffed in my intake.

Well, your mph was comparitively better than your e.t. so there must have been enough air getting around that basketball.

i have an 11 second car too, its just at the dealership still. im having a 200 shot of NAWS put onto my Del Sol and when i hit the button, i should be in the 9's!

For those of you who may be pesimistic about mine or any big block fiero I think simple logic needs to prevail here. Mine is a budget build designed for others to replicate. If I had good (1/4 mile) numbers to post, so what. The point is that any one of you could out do mine, just pick up a crate motor with nearly 600 H.P. and with that or certainly on spray have the first 9 secound fiero on this forum. A 3800 is greatly improoved when it has a super or turbo charger (no duh). Now do that to a 500 C.I. big block with a tranny that can handle it. In my thread I said I'll do anything to help. Im guessing that the sole issues stopping most people may be the overwelming overall layout, Availability of tools, materiel, talent or time. What if I were to make a jig that fit onto the stock cradle, c-clamped in place with protrueding arms acting as tubing holders. I then ship this jig to any pennocks member for free, who promisses to make strides for the jig to then be available to another member. Some could simply have a local welding shop do it for them, Some may just want to check it out as a reference. What this would accomplish is tranny placement with adequate ground clearence. The builder would only have to decide what motor he's running and position a crossmember under that motors mounts.The elevation of those motor mounts is just that wich is nessesary for the axles to clear the longetudinal frame rails wile the tranny is already in position.The cradle could then be finished, then in the car with the motor and tranny in place as a rolling chassis. At the least it would be a good start.

This would be for 425 tranny setups as far as I know unless there,s dimentional interchangability to the 325 tranny.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-07-2006).]

I have actually tried to initiate this sort of "open-source" hot rod building; even with Fieros before. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for the idea. We talked about it with retrofitting C5 Vette suspension to the front of the Fiero. The thread just died. My guess is hotrodding is split pretty evenly between the pre-engineered, bolt-on, types; and the complete do-it-yourselfers. If you make a fully engineered kit, or have a turn-around service for modifying cradles you would probably see a slow but steady stream of business. The "open-source" jig, if you build it, would probably be requested once in a while.

If you can make the jig, do it for the occasional semi-do-it-yourselfer. Maybe make a couple, so when the first one ends up lost under a pile of abandoned project parts, there will be a spare ready to ship.

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toddshotrods.com - wanna ride?
crazy projects, features, articles, art & more

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-07-2006).]

A couple of years ago I watched this forum rip to pieces a low budget big block fiero owner that lived in my area. he quit the forum in frustration. hope that doesnt happen again here. awesome project you have going here.

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: I would very much like to do that, that would be a yes. I here the rock has been puttin down more vht lately, people recently have been calling it the house of hook wile ive only been able to spectate.

ya, RFR preps their track very well, when i worked there i had to tie my shoes extra tight, otherwise they would slip off when i walked on the starting line... i hooked good enough to blow the differential gears out of my v8 at 2500rpm on launch, lol. anyway, i can email you or pm you in mid summer about going to RF with me. i think as long as you bring information about your engine and swap they should let you in (especially if they let in another v8 fiero a few cars ahead of you).

i think you may have sparked my intrest with building a BB fiero, however, i was looking at the pics above, and i was wondering since you had to cut into the oil pan to make the axle fit through, will that limit how long the stroke is? if i wanted to (in theory) get a 632 ci BBC and put it in, will the crankshaft be hitting the axle? also, how much room is in the front of the engine, did you use the stock pullys or did you have to use thinner ones?

for your cradle "kit" i think you might have something, have separate crossmember jigs for BB caddy, and chevy and differant trannys, then just have people special order them from you. this would bring a BB swap one step closer to the do-it-youselfer. im not sure if you have a welder of your own, or if you had somebody else doe it for you with your swap, but i am knowledgeable in MIG, Stick, TIG, and oxy-acedeline welding, and i am thinking about investing in a TIG, Stick and plasma cutter early this summer (already have mig and oxy-acedeline). i would be more than happy to do some welding for BB fiero kits.

woohoo, im going to Aerosmith and Motley Crue tonight! sorry, im just getting kinna exited

The big block chevy pics are mine. Stroke isn't an issue as the tube passes below a main bearing. I probably wouldn't have had to cut as much as I did hadn't I used the deep sump pan. The pulleys I'm using are for the short water pump as I know clearance will be tight. The front motor mount is a Hooker piece that has two mounting ears.

[This message has been edited by John Miller (edited 12-08-2006).]

Flames 4 me, I welded and made the cradle myself but dont have time to make them for others. If you can make them and yeild A profit that would be super. Your in woodbury, Im in mpls so you could stop by any time and look it over. If you are able to create refinements that would even further the quality of the build thats great. If you copy mine with no changes thats fine to. I would still like to make A jig for people to use for free so I can hold true to my claim that you can build A BBF for under $1,000. The do it yourselfers may preffer it that way. If he's not allready done, someone like john miller could use the jig to make the tranny mount crossmember happen in the right spot at the right angle. He would then only have to build mounts that attatch vertically downward from his BBC and pick that up with one latteral crossmember (simple).

Cant wait till summer at the rock, Thanx Flames 4 me.

Here is my general overveiw as I see it. You may as well use the biggest engine you can find. That could be A buick, olds, pontiac, cadillac, chevy, and even chrystler, ford, donovan, ect. Of the lineup cadillac and olds are easy and cheep because they were allready mated to the 425 tranny in stock form. Choosing something else could involve a custom oilpan, starter mount, oil filter relocation, tranny Adaptor plate, flywheel, crank bushing or drilling, custom headers,ect. Some people like john miller have answers for these more difficult swaps And hopefully can help people who choose this route.

I decided to use the cadillac and olds engines because there easier and cheeper. You can even use the stock exhaust manifolds (but port em like I did) The stage one build I keep refering to is the cadillac because theres more bang for the buck, The biggest with 45 more cubes than olds, very light, only 50 pounds heavier than a small block chevy. Easy to make 600 H P at A streetable RPM. The cad company sells crate motors, and stroker motors far beyond 600 HP.

My caddy motor has stock pullys and water pump with 1" of space still remaining to the stock, firewall mounted heater core lines.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-10-2006).]

Lots of good ideas here, so here's a few more $0.05 worth:

-I'm a professed doit-yourselfer, as toddshotrods suggests. That said, I think the idea of a jig to loan out is nice, but consider the shipping of that suscker from Washington state to Miami, Fla.

-The 425/325 build is so simple and straightforward. I think your idea, modified into a "go to" website with good pictures and documentation would be more practical.

-You need a simple, inexpensive adapter plate. There are three companies that sell these, that I know of.

-You might well develop & blueprint a similar plate that would serve to bolt down the transmission mounts. This is optional, since the builder can use the stock mounts, or slightly modified stock tranny mounts, like I did. But it would be a nice touch.

-BTW, both of the adapter plates are so simple, you could just blueprint the dimensions, and folks could build their own. That's what I did, and I chose to use steel 1/16" thicker than what the commercially available adapter plates came in.

-Although the engine mounts are going to vary per engine used, they will all be more or less of the same construction and location. Again, pics and documentation are going to help the builder more than anything. BTW, the builder can easily choose to use cushioned engine mounts or solid engine mounts, the design is very adaptable.

-The scariest part of the whole build is locating the oilpan tunnel. Here is where pics and documentation really would help. Having done this step, I can tell you it really isn't that difficult. It is actually a part of the process of aligning the engine/trans/axels with the cradle.

-These suggestions are given in a helpful manner, not to discourage your original idea, at all.


BTW, flames4me, out of an abundance of caution, you should check the axle location for any given engine. To do so would require having the engine, adapter plate, trans, and differential & output axle. You would do this by removing the oilpan, connecting the above parts, and turning the crankshaft. I have only done this with an LT1, and the stock windage tray comes close, but the throws of the crankshaft are well out of harms way. *** However, if you flip the differential, the axle is actually raised closer to the engine, and interferrence becomes an issue.

BTW, BTW, flames4me, I saw the Trans-Siberian Orchestra a couple of weeks ago. Just to get in the holiday mood.

David Breeze

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Pantera Rebody Kits

quote Originally posted by opm2000: ...I think your idea, modified into a "go to" website with good pictures and documentation would be more practical...

I think that is the best idea. There could be downloadable digital files that people could take to a CNC-equipped machine shop and have parts cut; as well as traditional diagrams, pictures, and blueprints.

Now that I sell all my Fieros you guys wanna start collaborating...

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toddshotrods.com - wanna ride?
crazy projects, features, articles, art & more

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: So I take it you didn't know or have anything to do with the porkeys bag based on this reaction.

So I take it that you think, or thought, that he put the bag on your intake based on your reaction?

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" There was a lot of little kids there. I watched them flying, doing jumps, and having races. And I thought that all those little kids are going to grow up someday. And all those little kids are going to do the things we do. But for now, sledding is enough. I think it would be great if sledding were always enough, but it isn't."
--the perks of being a wallflower by stephen chbosky

quote Originally posted by NSAN1T: ok well this page gives yet different numbers... 75 ELDORADO ENGINE Engine type V-8 Overhead valves. Cast iron block Displacement 500 cubic inches (8.2 L) Bore & stroke 4.300 x 4.304 inches Compression ratio 8.5:1 Brake horsepower (SAE gross) 365 @ 4400 rpm Torque 535 @ 3000 rpm Oil pressure 35-40 Main bearings five Valve lifters Hydraulic Carburetor Rochester four-barrel Quadrajet model 4MV (Eldorado type)

What page would that be?
I know the early Caddy 472 and 500's were monsters, but the mid-70's ones with catalytic converters were severly choked. GM hadn't figured out how to get emissions compliance and performance at the same time. That 365HP figure sounds more like a 71 than a 75 (especially considering the 75 would be rated in Net HP, not Gross - GM made the switch in '72.)

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: So I take it that you think, or thought, that he put the bag on your intake based on your reaction?

I never thought purple put the bag in my intake and never knew he didn't like me untill A week ago on this forum. After knowing his hatred I still didnt think he did it also because it had been so long ago that I hadn't given any thought about it know. After veiwing his post I thought about it only in hindsight of the topic and concluded that he didnt even know about it probably because he doesn't street race or go to porkeys very often.

Ive only spoken to purple A couple of times mabe five minutes total At porkeys and hitech. I know him from this forum more than anything else.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-08-2006).]

John miller, hopefully you will finish your BBF if you havent allready, but if you dont and put your big block in something else I would like to buy your unused hardware and oil pan ect. If it is finished could you post picks.

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the only fiero's running 10's have longitudinally mounted drivetrain, and the handling is pretty good.

Jim_S,
File sent, hopefully.

David Breeze

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Pantera Rebody Kits