Man yesterday I was drivin' ma WRX and I pulled a wheelie 3 ft in tha air with ma all wheel drive and bald tires damn it was sooo tight wait till I get pix it was awesome.

[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 12-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: [QUOTE]Originally posted by justa6: removing the front sway bar will promote MORE oversteer. by using a stiffer front swaybar it will promote understeer. by adding a rear sway bar it increases the chance of oversteer. the fiero understeers (pushes in a corner) stock. it will oversteer, but understeer is built into alomst all cars becasue it is safer than if the back end comes around. OVERsteer is where the back end wants to pass the front end. UNDERsteer is when the front end plows in a corner. when i first heard you say this with the swaybar (in a different thread i believe) i thought it was a type. just clarifying in case you were confused on oversteer vs understeer. study the setups on autocrossing and talk to racers. look at drifting set ups (where they want oversteer) i am more interested going fast on a racetrack (not a dragstrip) so i have studied a lot about the different setups, along with expermented with differnet setups.

I have misstated over VS under(steer) probably from watching to many leslie neilson reruns of airplane. Now I have A question for you, Lets say you have A V-6 fiero with the typical 1" coil drop in the front, poly bushings, and A fiero store rear swaybar. All is well but now you put a 150 lb weight in the trunk that will be there perminetly at a point of high center of gravity. You want the car to understeer just a tad for less expeirienced drivers to run the quarter. Would you remove the rear swaybar and call it done? put in a heavier front sway bar and call it done? armor-all the front tires like the red necks and call it done? or other. I'm calling this question part one in preperation for part two.

[/QUOTE] I posted A question for JUST A 6 who hasent answered so will now open this question to any body. More simply stated how would you make A big block fiero understeer? If you took out the rear swaybar would it understeer? How would you set it up for steet use and drags? After A few responces I will explain why I set the car up the way I did and what improovements i'm planning and why.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-24-2006).]

What is with all the venom in this thread... guy stuffed a 500ci engine in a Fiero! That's just plain cool and looks like it was done on the cheap. High center of gravity with the engine sitting on top of the transmission, sitting all the way in the back of the car and attacking him because he says it pulls the tires on the launch? I've seen enough rear engined cars that had weird stuff way out back pull wheelies, this car seems to be almost dead on the formula. Hot Rod claimed the black and yellow Fiero they had as a cover car (it was at the 20th meet) pulled wheelies with the one off wheels and street tires (17" back in the mid 80's!) with an injected 2.5 superduty engine. That car was one of the lasting impressions that made me want a fiero (although I didn't like the string of headlights across the front). I've known guys with 500 cad engines swapped into S-10 pickups and 56 ford P/U trucks and they flat out boogie. I think that one of the magazines took a caddy with a stock worn out 500 to the track and started making passes with it and reducing weight pass after pass, eventually cutting everything off leaving a drivers seat and frame rails plus drivetrain and were knocking out low elevens.

Torque rotates mass... those engines define torque.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: What is with all the venom in this thread... guy stuffed a 500ci engine in a Fiero!...

He did something really different. "Daring to Be Different" and getting popular approval these days means making slight changes to a "pre-approved formula". Do something that is too far out of the mainstream, and you will be relegated to the social status of a leper. I know this from experience. I had this crazy idea that people just needed to see a little "difference" to be inspired to go beyond their limits. It doesn't work that way. Sure, there are the few open-minded individuals that show up, but the vast majority don't understand why you won't just be "normal". People buy lifestyle packages. There are options within those packages, but you have to do it a certain way to gain the approval and acceptance of your peers - if you give a crap.

Build a Fiero with one of the pre-approved engine swaps (hard parts and process) and everyone will submit an enthusiastic thumbs up. Make that package go fast and look good and they'll shout your praises. Cut against the grain and try a different motor and the conformists will tell you all the things you did wrong, why it won't work, and what you should have done.

I love BBF's swap and believe it should pull the wheels pretty easily and run good ET's. I remember a few years ago on this forum, people didn't want to build Toronado/Eldo trannied cars because "all they'll do is wheelie". I'm talking about the drag racers, not the autocross types - we know it's not going to provide optimum handling. When these transaxles came up in one of my threads (years ago) pictures of the exibition wheelie drag cars (the ones with the hole in the floor to see down the track) were humorously posted; suggecting what my car was going to do. It was funny then, but interesting to hear the "change of heart" now. Suddenly, it's being said that there's no way the front wheels would come up that easily!

Another thing that some people on here don't seem to get is why BBF is so slow to share the exact details. He's a street-racer!!! A stock appearing Indy, with a big Caddy motor in back! Perfect street sleeper. If you're serious about grudge-style racing (even if you do it at the drag strip) you don't tell exactly HOW you did it, or what you car is capable of. Figuring out the details, and capabilities, of your opponent is part of the game. Even if you see the car run down the strip, and the numbers pop up on the board, you still probably won't know what it'll do.

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toddshotrods.com - wanna ride?
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Why anyone would would expect handling out of a set-up such as this is either to young to remember or can't grasp the entire muscle car idea. Those cars were and continue to be street driven drag cars, corning and handling were never a priority. Granted many advances have been made in this area however this is not the goal. I have a 88 3800scII in my lambo kit, I built a 88 Formula 350 5sp. (pics in this thread) and it ran and pulled great, I never fooled myself into thinking that it wouldn't break and have 5 spare FWD transaxels as a result. My latest endever is a big block chevy Fiero (pics also in this thread) this car will never corner as well as a stock Fiero, keeping in mind that's not my intent. Make no mistakes it's goal is acceration, raw and pure, will it go around corners? Man I hope so, will it handle great, absolutle not, again not my goal.
I keep checking back to this thread hoping more pertaint info will be posted, and I'm saddened to see members whineing and arguing about issues that aren't even related to the core topic. If you have a legitiment question or have useful info to help others out by all means post, if not (keep in mind I'm not looking for a flaming) sit back read and learn, possible do sone wrenching. Don't post to be a wiseass, the rule is "if you don't have anything nice, smart, informative to say, keep your mouth/fingers shut."
Now that I've wasted 20 minuted typing as opposed to 20 minutes wrenching I'll come down off my soap box. Later, John

What caught my eye was the mere mentioning of a method of reversing this series of transmission. I'd like to see the venom evaporate, and let's develop some meaningful discussion along those lines. I think there may be enough builders interested .

Tell you what, I have an almost brand new thm425 setting around. It actually has only 8 miles on it. It came from a GM hit-the-wall-at-35mph test car. If we could hash out this proposed method of reversal, the parts called for, the shortcomings, etc....then I'd be willing to take this trans to our local hotrodders' tranny shop, and see what they think.

But I don't want to do this without a full understanding of what I'm talking about.

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by flames4me: where did you get your 90/10 shocks.

the 90/10 shocks are from m.a.s. competition engineering number c2600. i welded the upper, old mount , to the shaft. works great.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-28-2006).]

if you want it to understeer, ad a larger front sway bar. the fiero alread had a problem with udersteer, and with a big block back there, i would think that the rear sway bar would help in handling no matter.

that is what i would do. but i set min eup more fo rspeed throug a corner, not just in a strait line.

do what you want to do, we have different goals in mind for handling.

I had my cradle out and back in twice today, measuring hard points & angles. The reverse install (motor facing the rear of the car) won't require cutting any firewall bracing, by this I'm talking about the buldge behind the gas tank. It's a shame there's not more info on the reverse install. How is the motorhome set-up arranged? Is it reversed from the get go, does it sit backwards? What years were they used, what models?
It's a shame I'm thinking about this now, my motor and trans are together, oil pan fabricated. I'de like to hear about a gear set that would allow the trans to function normally yet reverse the rotation at the rear end.

I just hope this doesn't die here. I would be willing to set up a section on my site, organize, and host the information if that would help. I am seriously considering using a TH425 for a (non-Fiero) project I have simmering. Even though my project isn't a Fiero, the method would be very similar.

------------------
toddshotrods.com - wanna ride?
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quote Originally posted by John Miller: I had my cradle out and back in twice today, measuring hard points & angles. The reverse install (motor facing the rear of the car) won't require cutting any firewall bracing, by this I'm talking about the buldge behind the gas tank. It's a shame there's not more info on the reverse install. How is the motorhome set-up arranged? Is it reversed from the get go, does it sit backwards? What years were they used, what models? It's a shame I'm thinking about this now, my motor and trans are together, oil pan fabricated. I'de like to hear about a gear set that would allow the trans to function normally yet reverse the rotation at the rear end.

on my completed car the stock water pump pully is about 1 1/2 inches from the fire wall, the crank pully has much more room to the fire wall because the motor is tilted downward and forward. because of the larger cylinder bores and hence bore spacing i would think the caddy motor is longer than the chevy so i would think your motor could be installed forward or backward. i just now measured from the bolt up surface of the bell housing to the front of the water pump pully and ive got 30 inches. if yours is the same or less it will fit. if yours is more you can get a shorter waterpump or mill yours but i really doubt yours is more than 30 inches.

The motorhome trannys werent reversed compared to a toranado. on a 400 tranny the tailshaft faces the back of the car, on a 425 trans the tailshaft faces the front of the car. the 425 internals are the same as the 400 so parts can be swaped the only difference being the reverse rotation that the 400 parts would provide. more specificaly the planetary set and intermediate spag orientation. i havent done this or built a reverse rotation car but have talked to people that have. i would get a 400 core and a 425 tranny and open them both up, lay the parts out in two rows like an exploded view. then compare one to the other and substitute the reverse rotation parts. this would be plenty strong as it is in a 400 but again i dont know the design critieria or strength surrounding the issue of reversing major load to minor load on the ring and pinion gear surfaces

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 12-30-2006).]

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: He did something really different. "Daring to Be Different" and getting popular approval these days means making slight changes to a "pre-approved formula". Do something that is too far out of the mainstream, and you will be relegated to the social status of a leper. I know this from experience. I had this crazy idea that people just needed to see a little "difference" to be inspired to go beyond their limits. It doesn't work that way. Sure, there are the few open-minded individuals that show up, but the vast majority don't understand why you won't just be "normal". People buy lifestyle packages. There are options within those packages, but you have to do it a certain way to gain the approval and acceptance of your peers - if you give a crap. Build a Fiero with one of the pre-approved engine swaps (hard parts and process) and everyone will submit an enthusiastic thumbs up. Make that package go fast and look good and they'll shout your praises. Cut against the grain and try a different motor and the conformists will tell you all the things you did wrong, why it won't work, and what you should have done.

I'm with ya Todd - welcome to my world.

BBF - do what you want, how you want. Being "different" is good no matter what you are told.

------------------

You can always drop in over here-- THM-425@yahoogroups.com

It is all for the Turbo-Hydeo front wheel drive trannies and the modified cars that use them.

Jim

quote Originally posted by justa6: if you want it to understeer, ad a larger front sway bar. the fiero alread had a problem with udersteer, and with a big block back there, i would think that the rear sway bar would help in handling no matter. that is what i would do. but i set min eup more fo rspeed throug a corner, not just in a strait line. do what you want to do, we have different goals in mind for handling.

I would like to get the best of every thing physicly possible with little tradeoffs so in that regard our goals are the same. My build has a greater rear weight bias and A higher center of gravity in the rear. A problem with any strut system is that it offers little camber gain during A corner. our roll centers are the same but my roll angle is greater due to my higher center of gravity and increased weight. As the car rolls the camber change will cause the tires to footprint A smaller contact area on the ground wich will break traction causing more oversteer. This is why adding A rear swaybar will reduce oversteer contrary to popular belief. If you were to staticly adjust more negitive camber into the wheel alignment that would help in the turns but the problem is then A loss of traction for forward acceleration because the static footprint of the tire to the ground is compromized.

We fiero owners all need these cars to maintain small roll angles regardless of the build due to the strut type suspension. I only negitive camber one degree because I need the forward traction. lower torque machines dont need the traction and can negitive camber more degrees. because I dont have enough negitive camber for the turns I then need A stiffer rear swaybar. My weight bias problem can be much improoved with wider stickier rear tires wich I want for drag racing anyway. A stiffer front swaybar on A rear weight bias car will tend to lift the inside front tire when in the turns or accelerating out of a corner wich may at some point get the car to understeer but I havent done much expeirimenting with that yet. For now I am wanting a spindle with a greater offset strut attatchment arm to make room for wider rims. I wont use wheel spacers because I dont want to increase the scrub radius that would put more load on the tierod ends and attatchment points to the chassis ect. Im looking at a G.M. part that would increase the axle diameters as well but I would then have to drill the flange for A smaller bolt circle diameter. I plan to then further reduce scrub radius by wideing the inside portion of the rim and this will also help hide the tires under the car for A more perfectly stock look.

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 01-01-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88:

I was looking at this picture when it hit me, Why not use this engine and trans for a awd fiero?

[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 12-31-2006).]

Hello all, today I welded up the extention that holds the transaxel. I had to do some rust repair first. I will post pics later.
As for the AWD statement, you would need a unit that would be able to survive with the torque were putting thru it. The more components you add, the more weight, this were tring to avoid. It's a power to weight ratio thing. Later, John

with little or no weight on the front tires at launch theres no need to drive them. I hope nobody tries to spool the differential because weight transfer is so good you shouldent need to with the right tires and also if you break an axle with this short wheelbase car during good weight transfer the spool will drive the unbroken side and you could be changing lanes strait into your opponent or spectators

quote Originally posted by John Miller: As for the AWD statement, you would need a unit that would be able to survive with the torque were putting thru it. The more components you add, the more weight, this were tring to avoid. It's a power to weight ratio thing. Later, John

awd with this engine/trans would have a better front to rear wight ratio because it would have to be mounted sideways like the engine was originally in the fiero. This would be great for auto cross or any other competition where handling matters.

if you dont mind having struts sticking out of your hood higher than your engine, then ya, this engine and trans couild make an AWD fiero... just to name one complication of putting 2 engines in a fiero.

how much money/effort do you want to put into making a 2000 hp street driven / pump gas fiero?

------------------
1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC
Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted
13* retard exhaust cam, FFP UDP, much more.
13.93@101mph as it is on the street

355/400hp sbc, 4 bolt main
spec stage 3, and many other extras.
87 GT 5-speed Getrag, power everything.

it wouldn't be a 2 engine fiero

what else would a FWD engine and tranny do in the front of a fiero?

if its going to be front engine rear wheel drive, why not just buy the fieros big brother... the fierbird. im pretty sure boomtastic is one of the only people who has done a front engine rwd fiero, and it is a sweet car no doubt, but its just not very realistic for most fiero owners.

edit: if you have this engine in the front OR the back, nomatter what if you have the front tires as drive tires, you will have the struts sticking up out of the hood at least 6". there was a good thread showing the positives and negatives of an AWD fiero a while ago... i dont have time to look it up, sorry.

[This message has been edited by flames4me (edited 01-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by flames4me: what else would a FWD engine and tranny do in the front of a fiero? if its going to be front engine rear wheel drive, why not just buy the fieros big brother... the fierbird. im pretty sure boomtastic is one of the only people who has done a front engine rwd fiero, and it is a sweet car no doubt, but its just not very realistic for most fiero owners. edit: if you have this engine in the front OR the back, nomatter what if you have the front tires as drive tires, you will have the struts sticking up out of the hood at least 6". there was a good thread showing the positives and negatives of an AWD fiero a while ago... i dont have time to look it up, sorry.

I hate to say it but you have no clue what I am talking about or what your talking about. I am talking about a mid engine awd fiero, your talking about a few different thing other than this and a few of them are horribly wrong.

Jim_S,
you have a pm

David Breeze

------------------

Pantera Rebody Kits

quote Originally posted by jmbishop: I hate to say it but you have no clue what I am talking about or what your talking about. I am talking about a mid engine awd fiero, your talking about a few different thing other than this and a few of them are horribly wrong.

Well i'm glad someone else finally realizes that.......................

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: with little or no weight on the front tires at launch theres no need to drive them. I hope nobody tries to spool the differential because weight transfer is so good you shouldent need to with the right tires and also if you break an axle with this short wheelbase car during good weight transfer the spool will drive the unbroken side and you could be changing lanes strait into your opponent or spectators

How do you figure???.............the broken axle would just "free wheel" and the car would sit in place. Unless it had redneck posi.

(purple reign quote) How do you figure???.............the broken axle would just "free wheel" and the car would sit in place. Unless it had redneck posi.

What do you estimate could happen if you had welded spider gears (redneck posi) and then broke one axle near the start? I have seen simular circumstance play out on the dragstrip on a car with A longer wheelbase and less rear weight bias.

What is functionaly different between welded spider gears and A spool?

[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 01-07-2007).]

Thats not exactly what I was talking about but its closer and actually makes sense unlike some peoples posts.

quote Originally posted by flames4me: edit: ... if you have the front tires as drive tires, you will have the struts sticking up out of the hood at least 6".

My measurements show it to be closer to 2 inches and I'm pretty sure it's possible to find 2 inch shorter struts to make it possible.

quote Originally posted by big block fiero: (purple reign quote) How do you figure???.............the broken axle would just "free wheel" and the car would sit in place. Unless it had redneck posi. What do you estimate could happen if you had welded spider gears (redneck posi) and then broke one axle near the start? I have seen simular circumstance play out on the dragstrip on a car with A longer wheelbase and less rear weight bias. What is functionaly different between welded spider gears and A spool?

As you know an open diff will just spin one side of the carrier.

Welded gears will do just what you posted.

A spool ( depending on the type ) acts like a non-harmful "push" as one axle starts spinning, when the diff tries to lock it feels like someone lightly rearending you to get traction ( from being stuck in some cases ) without " locking" the other axle & breaking more components.

Ever felt a spool when stuck in the snow ??? It feels like welded gears without the damage. The faster you go the more violent & rapid the banging in the back. ( my tow truck experiences this every winter )

quote Originally posted by PURPLE REIGN: As you know an open diff will just spin one side of the carrier. Welded gears will do just what you posted. A spool ( depending on the type ) acts like a non-harmful "push" as one axle starts spinning, when the diff tries to lock it feels like someone lightly rearending you to get traction ( from being stuck in some cases ) without " locking" the other axle & breaking more components. Ever felt a spool when stuck in the snow ??? It feels like welded gears without the damage. The faster you go the more violent & rapid the banging in the back. ( my tow truck experiences this every winter )

I think you are confused in the difference between A spool and other setups such as limited slip, lockers ect. A spool is funtionally the same as welded spider gears.regardless of the type of spool they are 100% locked. I dont think your tow truck has a spool.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: He did something really different. "Daring to Be Different" and getting popular approval these days means making slight changes to a "pre-approved formula". Do something that is too far out of the mainstream, and you will be relegated to the social status of a leper. I know this from experience. I had this crazy idea that people just needed to see a little "difference" to be inspired to go beyond their limits. It doesn't work that way. Sure, there are the few open-minded individuals that show up, but the vast majority don't understand why you won't just be "normal". People buy lifestyle packages. There are options within those packages, but you have to do it a certain way to gain the approval and acceptance of your peers - if you give a crap. Build a Fiero with one of the pre-approved engine swaps (hard parts and process) and everyone will submit an enthusiastic thumbs up. Make that package go fast and look good and they'll shout your praises. Cut against the grain and try a different motor and the conformists will tell you all the things you did wrong, why it won't work, and what you should have done. I love BBF's swap and believe it should pull the wheels pretty easily and run good ET's. I remember a few years ago on this forum, people didn't want to build Toronado/Eldo trannied cars because "all they'll do is wheelie". I'm talking about the drag racers, not the autocross types - we know it's not going to provide optimum handling. When these transaxles came up in one of my threads (years ago) pictures of the exibition wheelie drag cars (the ones with the hole in the floor to see down the track) were humorously posted; suggecting what my car was going to do. It was funny then, but interesting to hear the "change of heart" now. Suddenly, it's being said that there's no way the front wheels would come up that easily! Another thing that some people on here don't seem to get is why BBF is so slow to share the exact details. He's a street-racer!!! A stock appearing Indy, with a big Caddy motor in back! Perfect street sleeper. If you're serious about grudge-style racing (even if you do it at the drag strip) you don't tell exactly HOW you did it, or what you car is capable of. Figuring out the details, and capabilities, of your opponent is part of the game. Even if you see the car run down the strip, and the numbers pop up on the board, you still probably won't know what it'll do.

yeah, personally, I love the way people with body mods, engine swap, etc can still be purists. /ponder

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http://www.rantradio.com/rr-industrial128.pls

All this talk of grabbing air at launch is ok for show, but, everything I've read and seen tells me that correctly installed wheelie bars to keep that front down is way better. This assumes that anybody putting a BBC in a Fiero is mostly interested in straight line performance.

Just the view from the cheap seats.

Arn

The wheelie assumption is correct. I'm not quite sure how my set-up will react. On street tires or slicks at the track, the weight bias could be a problem. I'll move the battery to the front to help, however with poly bushings on the lower control arms and solid cradle bushings the transfer will be pronounced. Wheelie bars are an option, but they are also a give away. Either way it should be a blast. Later, John

If you watch sanctioned street car drag racing (e.g. NMCA,etc) you'll see them pulling the front wheels quite high. I've even seen them drag the back bumper. Ideally, you want all energy to be converted into forward motion; but under certain circumstances it pays to use a little of it for other purposes. With a "space-framed", mid-engined, Fiero, it would probably be to your advantage to pull the front wheels a little; because you are restricted on tire size. They even need a little extra weight transfer to hook running 30-32-inch tall (albeit only 10.5" wide) wrinkle walls, and a trick converter.

I remember the videos of FieroX's car. He was almost hanging the fronts, and getting decent sixty-foot times. If I were building one of these cars I would want about six-inches of air under the fronts for about thirty feet. Screw wheelie bars for a street car (JMO), plus they make you lose negotiating power.

On the other side of the coin is wheelspin. With it your energy is being turned into heat, not forward motion.

------------------
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What ever happened to removable wheelie bars? Not hard to fabricate, and you can pull them out of the trunk when you get to the track.

Arn

For saftey concern i should say that your big block fiero should have rims that are equal or wider than the tires especially if your running wrinkle walls. Short wheelbase, rear weight bias plus rear tire side-wall movement can setup a sway at 120mph that could be deadly. My drag radials are not very wide and the side-walls are reasonably firm. It's very common to get greedy for traction and run a wider tire than rim. I have done it often and so have an oversteering technique at high mph, but if you let someone make a pass in your car they might kart-wheel across the finish line.

Any news in the world of big block fiero's? I just got my SBC fiero down from winter storage and am working on getting it ready for the strip this summer. still have a lot of work, but I should be done late July or a little later depending on how much time I can find to work on it. I'm looking foreward to racing with you BBF at Rock Falls this summer. later.

------------------
1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC
Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted
13.93@101mph as it is on the street.
... ... !
350ci 400hp/tq SBC, 4 bolt main
Spec Stage 3, Nitrous Oxide, many extras.
87 GT 5-speed Getrag, power everything.

quote Originally posted by flames4me: Any news in the world of big block fiero's? I just got my SBC fiero down from winter storage and am working on getting it ready for the strip this summer. still have a lot of work, but I should be done late July or a little later depending on how much time I can find to work on it. I'm looking foreward to racing with you BBF at Rock Falls this summer. later.

I have had the top end of my motor together and apart a few times this year so far so I can perfect my displacement on demand setup. I will leave it together on this next go-around and am now waiting for the machinist to finish my "steped" 7/16 to 5/16 rocker studs. This will be alot of fun to drive around on four cylinders and race the ricers then switch to eight and race the american muscle. The problem im curing now is solving the issue that throws a pushrod into the valley when I make the switch at high RPM.