In looking at the Fiero book by Gary Witzenburg I came acroos several photos of Fiero Concept vehicles. Most of these never went into production but one seemed to have made its way to the production line. Take a look at a 1990 Buick Reatta and you'll see what I mean.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

I bought my wife a Reatta a couple of years ago. When I flew to Texas to pick it up, I told her that it was like a Fiero... only the engine was in the front. Boy, was I wrong! The Reatta is huge! And rides like a Buick for sure! No Fiero feel there at all... But it definitely does share some visual cues with the old prototype Fieros.

The Reatta was nothing but a shortened Riviara/Toranado/Eldorado. I think they were H bodies pans if I recall the correct body code.

There was a show car that Buick and Pontiac did in 1984/85 that shared its styling cues with the Reatta. The Pontiac was named the P2 and I can recall the Buick but it was nearly the same car. Neither was ever planned for production.

i like the digital cluster and the touchscreen in the center, very cool on the reatta. i love buttons. "2c"

quote Originally posted by Chris Hodson: i like the digital cluster and the touchscreen in the center, very cool on the reatta. i love buttons. "2c"

I loved showing them off to passengers when I drove my dad's. It even had its own scantool interface on the center display.

Interesting thread.....now you got me curious as to whether the some of the people who worked on the concept/prototype drawings of the Fiero later worked at Buick and had a hand in designing the Reatta?

By the way, the comparison Songman made between the Reatta and the Fiero is a correct one!

Kit / 86 GT / 90 Reatta Coupe

The touchscreens were awful in Reattas. That's why they only lasted through the first two years of production. The last two years still had digital gauges but the touch screen was replaced by something that would actually work and last.

Kit, you get the same feel of the Reatta only because it is the same car! haha... How is she doing? I can't wait to see you get her all dolled up. Send me some pictures sometime.

Here are a couple of pictures of how she looked when I had her. These also show well how much larger a Reatta is than a Fiero...











And I always liked this picture of the Reatta sitting in the driveway in the background...

I'm getting ready to take it to the DMV next monday. They want to see it in person since it's an out of state car.
Michael and I just finished fixing the "STEERING COLUMN FROM HELL" . It was a major pain in the you know what but
we finally traced the problem to a bent potmetal bracket. (long story............) That aside, it's coming together slowly but
surely. Also, I need to get off my lazy behind and finish restoring that extra set of tail lights I bought.

I should be able to send out pics in a few weeks.............

Kit

I don't know how I am gonna act with both of those cars gone!

quote Originally posted by Songman: I bought my wife a Reatta a couple of years ago. When I flew to Texas to pick it up, I told her that it was like a Fiero... .

You sold the Reatta? Remember I was there the day you picked it up. It was cool hanging out with you that day.

Yep... Kit bought it and has been really fixing it up...

When I was driving across North Texas around Christmas I thought about having lunch with you that day and got a real craving for Pappadeaux's but couldn't find one. That was a good lunch!

quote Originally posted by Songman: Here are a couple of pictures of how she looked when I had her. These also show well how much larger a Reatta is than a Fiero...

Can you please clear something up for me? Is the body sheet metal or plastic panels like the Fiero?

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3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

It's a steel body with a uni-body chassis, just like most cars. The rear fenders and roof are all part of the uni-body and not removable without cutting.

quote Originally posted by Songman: The touchscreens were awful in Reattas. That's why they only lasted through the first two years of production. The last two years still had digital gauges but the touch screen was replaced by something that would actually work and last.

My dad's and my sister's Reattas have over 200k miles on them and the displays still work perfectly.

There are exceptions to every rule. Just about every Reatta owner I know with 89-89 cars have had to have the displays changed. If the ones in your family haven't been swapped out at some time, they are very lucky. You know there had to be major issues for GM to take something so potentially cool completely out of production after only two years and go to something more conventional.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 02-21-2007).]

What's the interior like?

quote Originally posted by Songman: There are exceptions to every rule. Just about every Reatta owner I know with 89-89 cars have had to have the displays changed. If the ones in your family haven't been swapped out at some time, they are very lucky. You know there had to be major issues for GM to take something so potentially cool completely out of production after only two years and go to something more conventional.

Something like cost and demand? Buick was the poor old coot's Caddy at the time. A sport coupe in the lineup was pretty unique. At the time when computers were just starting to get big, carbs and buttons were still commonplace. If I were in grandpa's shoes, I probably would have no idea how to use the display to its full capacity simply because I would have never had a computer.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: There was a show car that Buick and Pontiac did in 1984/85 that shared its styling cues with the Reatta. The Pontiac was named the P2 and I can recall the Buick but it was nearly the same car. Neither was ever planned for production.

The P2 was going to be used as a possible second generation Fiero.


The Buick version was called the Quester



By the way I don't see all that much about the Reatta that looks like the a Fiero. Yes it's a two small sports car but I just don't see any real shared lines. OK maybe just alittle of the 90 coupe but just a little.

And not to steal the thread but - if any Reatta owners care I have access to tons of plant photos and documents at the museum I work at. I would be more then willing to do some research for you. Just email me.

That photo of the 'P2' kinda reminds me of a Subaru SVX... I think it's all the glass...

Thanks for posting those, I have never seen either.

I like this one .to does who never seen the interior http://www.cardomain.com/ride/453067/2

This is a good post to bring up this thought and to see if anyone can run with it.
For chops, one of the problems is the angle of the front part of the side windows. Would it be possible to make a fixed window like the Reattas? The roll up window could be found from another source, an S-10 for example.

I do think they had some design similarites, but they are by no means the same type of car.

The convertible is nice looking.

quote Originally posted by AP2k: Something like cost and demand? Buick was the poor old coot's Caddy at the time. A sport coupe in the lineup was pretty unique. At the time when computers were just starting to get big, carbs and buttons were still commonplace. If I were in grandpa's shoes, I probably would have no idea how to use the display to its full capacity simply because I would have never had a computer.

I guess that is one opinion... Sorta like all the different opinions on what really caused the demise of the Fiero. Cost was never a factor on the Reatta. It was designed and built to be a high-end car for an older more established crowd. The $30,000 price tag justified all of the 'ahead of their time' goodies on the Reatta, the touch screen being one. The price tag also justified the build process that involved a lot more manual building and less robots. Not totally hand-built, but close enough that GM labeled it that way. And that also explains a lot of the low numbers, even in the beginning years. Only a little over 21000 Reatta were built during the 4 year run. Not everyone wanted a Corvette. Some people wanted more luxury than speed. The price was about the same. But in the end, Buick owners wanted big luxurious cars, and younger people didn't want 'Grandpa's Buick' no matter how cool it was.

The trouble touch screen was replaced by a computerized Driver Information Center that controlled not only the climate control but also many engine functions, such as being able to read trouble codes right in the car. Of course, another reason people may have wanted to get rid of the touchscreen is our fascination with upgrading our stereos. You can't really do that when the radio and climate control is built into a touchscreen. Cool but not very upgradeable.


So no, I don't think cost and demand had anything to do with it. I think it was problems and lack of upgradeability. Even now, the 88-89 Reattas don't hold their value as well as the 90-91, mostly because of fear of the touchscreen problems. The digital gauges and the DIC that was put in the 90-91 was just as cool and innovative as the touchscreen... in my opinion, of course.

Nice Songman ..I was looking for the fun on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/Buick-Re...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[This message has been edited by Newbfiero (edited 02-21-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: It's a steel body with a uni-body chassis, just like most cars. The rear fenders and roof are all part of the uni-body and not removable without cutting.

To add to what Songman said, the front fenders though are plastic, not steel. I'm not sure why they did this but they are most definitely
plastic!

Kit / 90 Reatta Coupe / 86 Fiero GT

I've seen a few of these around back home and always thought they'd be interesting to drive, just to compare if nothing else.

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1984 Fiero SE

I currently drive a 1990 Reatta while I await the return of my Fiero. They drive like a Buick straight ahead...but their is very little body roll on curves and it handles curves very well.

I want my Fiero back, then I will sell the Reatta. Though the digital display the put in the '90 is top notch.

Exactly my experience with our Reatta, lou... It is a beautiful car and if we hadn't been thinning the herd I would have probably kept it. But for me, I liked the Fiero better... Not to mention that I know how to work on a Fiero. The Reatta has lots of things that require special techniques. Like the brakes. You have to flush the brakes every year and if they fail, they fail totally with no warning. I just didn't want my wife and child taking that chance.

Try this one on for size. Popular Science 1969. Exact Reatta rear window and Fiero engine almost. These cars were thought of way before the ones we see today.SC

quote Originally posted by Songman: I guess that is one opinion... Sorta like all the different opinions on what really caused the demise of the Fiero. Cost was never a factor on the Reatta. It was designed and built to be a high-end car for an older more established crowd. The $30,000 price tag justified all of the 'ahead of their time' goodies on the Reatta, the touch screen being one. The price tag also justified the build process that involved a lot more manual building and less robots. Not totally hand-built, but close enough that GM labeled it that way. And that also explains a lot of the low numbers, even in the beginning years. Only a little over 21000 Reatta were built during the 4 year run. Not everyone wanted a Corvette. Some people wanted more luxury than speed. The price was about the same. But in the end, Buick owners wanted big luxurious cars, and younger people didn't want 'Grandpa's Buick' no matter how cool it was. The trouble touch screen was replaced by a computerized Driver Information Center that controlled not only the climate control but also many engine functions, such as being able to read trouble codes right in the car. Of course, another reason people may have wanted to get rid of the touchscreen is our fascination with upgrading our stereos. You can't really do that when the radio and climate control is built into a touchscreen. Cool but not very upgradeable. So no, I don't think cost and demand had anything to do with it. I think it was problems and lack of upgradeability. Even now, the 88-89 Reattas don't hold their value as well as the 90-91, mostly because of fear of the touchscreen problems. The digital gauges and the DIC that was put in the 90-91 was just as cool and innovative as the touchscreen... in my opinion, of course.

I meant manufacturing cost. If GM couldnt maintain a profit margin, something was going to get cut. Not much that was as costly in the car than the display and the computer that went along with it. 21,000 cars at $30k a pop? GM spent millions of dollars in developing that car and they got peanuts for it in the end. Only about 8000 were made before they took out the touch screen. When it sells at a 2:1 margin without the display, it ought to tell you that buyers of the time didnt like the display, and with an age of only a couple years touchscreen problems werent the reason.

I know you meant manufacturing cost. GM is going to make their 'per car' profit so I wasn't talking about the selling price.

As far as the millions spent on research... Again, same with the Fiero... And a lot of other cars that didn't stand the test of time. History has shown us the GM is really good at spending millions on cars that don't return it.

Actually 11,717 Reattae had the touch screen. More than half the run. So the 2:1 margin doesn't apply.

1990 was the biggest year for the Reatta with 8,515 sold. 1991 was the smallest with only 1,519 sold. Why did they only sell 1,519 when it was the best Reatta yet. after having the best year to date? Like I said, why did they quit making the Fiero? They would have sold more if they had kept making them. Remember, by GMs standards this was a handbuilt car. Very few were made the first year because of it. The middle years were in the 7,009 and 8,515 respectively so sales were climbing until the stopped production early in 91 and only made a few cars...

We could go on all day about this but, yes, the touch screens were a problem when only a year or two old. Here is a quote from a car historian on the Reatta. "The Reatta was the first two-seater Buick since before the Second World War and it came with all the latest options and electronic gadgetry. The technology dazzler was the Delco-developed Electronic Control Center. It was a mini computer screen in the middle of the dash that responded to your wishes by simply touching the screen. Unfortunately, the control center was plagued with problems from the start. Today, most owners still complain the screens fade in and out. In fact, electronic problems appear to be the biggest headache of Reatta owners, including problems with the door locks and malfunctioning stereo systems. In 1990-91 (the last years for the short-lived Reatta), the Delco touch screen was replaced with switches and push-buttons making these years more attractive to collectors. And again, I will mention that in addition to the touchscreen problems, the design made it impossible to upgrade your stereo and when the unit wasn;t working you couldn't even turn on the heat or A/C!

The Reatta, just like the Fiero, was getting the bugs worked out and was the best it had been when GM pulled the plug, in spite of millions in R&D to develop it. Fiero owners should be the first to acknowledge that GM is willing to do that. It made no difference with them that sales grew every year until they quit making the car. GM sold every Reatta they made. They didn't sell more because they didn't make more.

But like I said, there are as many different opinions on this as there are why the Fiero died. You are more than welcome to yours and I will stick with mine. I don't know how old you are but at 42, I was around when it was all going on and know firsthand that the touchscreen was a problem from year one. And I have owned and worked on Reattae so I know the problems they suffer with firsthand. I know you said your dad and maybe your sister have or had Reattae. I am glad for them if htye have never had problems? Did they buy them new? If so, double check with them to make sure the touchscreen hasn't been replaced. If not, I guarantee you that the previous owner had issues with it. Read any 88-89 Reatta review on the internet and the owners will talk about the touchscreen going on and off and eventually quitting.

I've made my point so I am done here... I am not at all trying to say you are not welcome to your opinion. The only reason I responded here again is because the numbers you used in your last argument were totally wrong and skewed the point. All anyone has to do is search and they will see the real reason GM switched from the touchscreen and cost, manufacturing or otherwise, had nothing to do with it.

Have a nice day.

quote Originally posted by Songman: The Reatta has lots of things that require special techniques. Like the brakes. You have to flush the brakes every year and if they fail, they fail totally with no warning. I just didn't want my wife and child taking that chance.

Why does the brakes fluid need annual changing to prevent them from failing?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Why does the brakes fluid need annual changing to prevent them from failing?

They've got a Teves antilock system in them - early days ABS. The power assist isn't provided by a vacuum booster like normal cars - it's provided by hydraulic assist; high pressure brake fluid generated by the ABS pump. There's a high-pressure accumulator in the hydraulic circuit to store some pressurized fluid to allow one or two stops with the power off.

The problem with these systems is that if you lose hydraulic pressure the rear brakes won't work at all - and the front disc brakes will only have your foot on the pedal to energize them. That means long, long, long stopping distances if there's a failure - very hazardous in traffic, almost certain to lead to an accident.

Since that hydraulic boost is so important, why the cheap pump - with it's power running through one of those cheap plastic relays? At this late date, the brake system in these cars is a real problem. Very expensive to rebuild / replace - very dangerous if you don't. Cheap insurance is yearly brake fluid changes.
I can't imagine any car manufacturer releasing a vehicle to the public with a brake system like this.

That brushes against the real problem with these cars - they're loaded with (for the time) very advanced electronic systems; touchscreen controls, drive by wire, etc. The problem is that it's all Delco Electronics version 1.0 stuff all through the car. OK if it works, big problems if it doesn't.

The recouping of the Fiero and Reatta costs arent the same. The Reatta sold 22k cars and the Fiero sold more cars every year than the entire Reatta production run. Even if the Fiero cost half as much as the Reatta, it sold far more than twice the Reatta run. The Fiero sold around 350k cars and the Reatta 22k. Tell me which profitted GM more.

My dad and sister HAVE them and its my sister's daily. My dad's has 230k miles on it. Regardless of whether or not the displays have been replaced, the touchscreen is worn is a couple spots and its still working. These were used when purchased. 5 years or 15, the touchscreens work perfectly. My number might be skewed, but going on personal opinion on car reviews is just as bad, epsecially when you call it fact and opinion at the same time.

I'm really not trying to start a flame war, but you saying this is exactly the same as saying Fieros spontaneously combust. Some Fieros did and some Reattas have display problems, but that is by no means justification to call it a norm. If it were, you would have seen GM recalling them like the 84 Fiero. The only reacalls for the Reatta are for the fuel system, brakes, air bag modules, and transmission shift cable. I didnt see one for displays, so I am not inclined to believe they are as widespread a problem as you have us to believe. Fixing a mylar mesh isnt exactly the most difficult thing in the world to repair or redesign, you know, so I would think that if it were a huge problem, it would be exceptionally wise of GM to have replaced it since its so cheap. Not only that, engineers that have worked on the displays say the problem arises sometimes because of the sheet, cold solder joints, or faulty connectors: all cheap to fix.

The touchscreen technology was also used in the Riviera, Cadillac El Dorado and Oldsmobile Toronado, with the Toronado featuring a color display.

Thats my reasoning behind calling it marketing.

I am not going on car reviews and stating opinions. I am stating facts, production numbers, and personal experience. The car historian I quoted is not just some review. He is a credited historian who has made a lifelong career out of writing the history of automobiles.

And no, I never said anything that was like people saying the Fieros spontaneously combust. I am talking about a documented poor design that has plagued every Reatta that used it. And I did say that you can read any review on the 88-89 Reatta and see that it always says the touchscreen was a horror. Quite different than a small number of Fieros catching on fire. And I am not trying to have you believe anything... the numbers are there and obvious. You seem to be the only one in this thread defending something that still plagues the Reatta. Please use my exact words when trying to summarize what I say because you weren't even close to what I said.

So now we have the facts... Your father and your sister both bought the Reattae used. So you really can't give a complete history about the reliability of the touchscreens. I am glad that they are not having problems YET. Tell them that there is a guy on eBay who can rebuild them for $150 WHEN the problems start.

So we're talking opinions about what GM engineers thought 20 years ago? Okay... My opinion is that they realized they had made a major mistake by trying to rush technology into a car that wasn't reliable yet, and instead of sticking a band-aid on it they replaced it. And I kknow what cars it was used in.. And I know it is the same cars that it was dropped from because of problems. Those are high dollar and popular cars they were used in, and other than the Reatta quite successful. The fact that the troublesome CRTs were removed from all of those cars seems to work against your marketing point instead of proving it.

Now we have both stated our opinions and I have posted some documented facts and historical summaries. I'll make you a deal... Don't paraphrase and change the meaning on my words and I won't post about this anymore... This really has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Thanks.

quote Originally posted by Songman: I am not going on car reviews and stating opinions. I am stating facts, production numbers, and personal experience. The car historian I quoted is not just some review. He is a credited historian who has made a lifelong career out of writing the history of automobiles. And no, I never said anything that was like people saying the Fieros spontaneously combust. I am talking about a documented poor design that has plagued every Reatta that used it. And I did say that you can read any review on the 88-89 Reatta and see that it always says the touchscreen was a horror. Quite different than a small number of Fieros catching on fire. And I am not trying to have you believe anything... the numbers are there and obvious. You seem to be the only one in this thread defending something that still plagues the Reatta. Please use my exact words when trying to summarize what I say because you weren't even close to what I said. So now we have the facts... Your father and your sister both bought the Reattae used. So you really can't give a complete history about the reliability of the touchscreens. I am glad that they are not having problems YET. Tell them that there is a guy on eBay who can rebuild them for $150 WHEN the problems start. So we're talking opinions about what GM engineers thought 20 years ago? Okay... My opinion is that they realized they had made a major mistake by trying to rush technology into a car that wasn't reliable yet, and instead of sticking a band-aid on it they replaced it. And I kknow what cars it was used in.. And I know it is the same cars that it was dropped from because of problems. Those are high dollar and popular cars they were used in, and other than the Reatta quite successful. The fact that the troublesome CRTs were removed from all of those cars seems to work against your marketing point instead of proving it. Now we have both stated our opinions and I have posted some documented facts and historical summaries. I'll make you a deal... Don't paraphrase and change the meaning on my words and I won't post about this anymore... This really has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Thanks.

I was doing a search for the Reatta Touchscreen and came across this thread in Google. I just happen to be a member on here so I thought I'd post! Personally, I think the Reatta is a very cool car. Every single one is just begging for a Series-1 SuperCharger. That said, I really believe the Reatta is going to be ONE of those cars which becomes pretty valuable in the future. Perhaps along the same lines as say, a Cadillac Allante, a Porsche 928S, a Fiat X-1/9 Bertone, or something like that.

I'm looking to buy one right now to hold on to. Unfortunately for us Fiero owners, we have a stigma about our car's reputation which I believe will always hinder the value.

Anyone have a Reatta for sale???


Anyway, I personally believe that the touch screen is a very important feature on the car. It was more or less revolutionary for the time, at least for the automotive industry. So what if they become flaky? The fact is, it's a fascinating technology for a car that's that old, and that will be something that definitely helps the value.

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Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2) 5-Speed
1984 Porsche 944 5-Speed
1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB)
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-26-2007).]

The mr 2 toyota was what the 89 or 90 fiero would have resembled.. I m going from memory of drawings i saw and when the mr 2 came out,, thought it look like drawings,, there were many different conceptions this was just one ,,imagine a direct cross between fiero and mr2...some others may remember this from 80s magazine,, the reatta has classic beauty and in as short a time as 5 years values will climb,, there are so many unique beautiful cars now to compete for same type of person who wants fiero,, there are still many many fieros!! lucky for us they are cheap to buy with many parts available,, soltice is new fiero

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 09-26-2007).]