First off, I am not bashing anyone, so don't come after me crying and whining.

I belong to other BMW and Benz forums as well as this one for my love of Fieros. I like this forum because not too often people get rude with each other. Everyone is pretty friendly and easy going. Everyone has good things to say to each other and is nice enough to keep their mouth shut if someone will get offended. So, Cliff, good work on starting a great forum.
Now with other forums out there, such as Real Fiero Tech for starters. WTF? It seems everyone there just wants to trash Archie and Roger Garrison as well as each others cars. I don't know all the facts, but I RESPECT the fact Archie can make nice cars and make a living doing it. If I thought for a minute that I could turn a profit doing Fiero work at my shop, I would. I have the money to invest in making engine conversions and custom CNC parts, but my thoughts are that I can make $2,000.00 on maintenance on one BMW or Benz and have it done in the same day...not six months.
Why all the hating and bad ass talk? It seems that every other forum I've seen is like this. The SVT a-holes were trashing us Fiero guys and our girls. RFT is trashing PFF, Bimmerforums is so biased towards MSR in north Jersey that anytime I post about my shop there the thread gets deleted. I've even offered to become a supporting vendor and they won't take my money.
I'm here on this forum to see what you guys are doing to your cars. I bought my first Fiero when I was 18 and after it was totaled with over 200,000 miles on it, I still have the nose on my current '87 GT to keep the memory alive.
Fierofreak00 said it best to me in Carlisle. "What is important is we are all enthusiests here, enjoying the same thing."
If I missed anything, I'll add another post later.
Dave

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1999 Mercedes ML430, 450hp 1987 Fiero GT, 1986 Fiero SE-soon to be 3800, certified master technician
www.njautobahn.com

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 07-07-2007).]

Just a thought, before the RFT trashing starts. Did you think about posting this on RFT where it might do some good instead of just stirring up the poop?

I think you are the one who is "stirring up the poop." He had a rant, but it was positive also. This is a great forum, and I too want others to be as great as this one is. I'm not on any of those forums but I am frequently on others and I know exactly what he is talking about.

RFT was started by the former PFF trolls who felt that their first amendment right were being violated when they were asked or expected to be civil. Unfortunately there are many trolls out there who keep coming back to PFF from under the rocks where they survive. Their one purpose in life, to feel important or superior, is to belittle others.

Examples will follow in this thread. Then this thread will get sent to the trash can.

I don't belong to RFT. Nor will I. I am not trying to start some poop. I just think that Fiero owners should welcome other owners and show respect even if they put a Ford engine in their Fiero...not trash every new idea or someone because they tried to put four turbos on their Fiero and blew it up.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: "What is important is we are all enthusiests here, enjoying the same thing."

Agreed.

If you don't like the "RFT vs World" section, don't read it. A lot of crap gets thrown around in there, and it's very one sided because nobody stands up for themselves and posts over there. Instead, they start whole new threads over HERE trying to stir up some inter-forum rivalry sh1t. (*cough cough*)

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/065852.html

Soon we're going to need a "PFF vs World" section.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Agreed. If you don't like the "RFT vs World" section, don't read it. A lot of crap gets thrown around in there, and it's very one sided because nobody stands up for themselves and posts over there. Instead, they start whole new threads over HERE trying to stir up some inter-forum rivalry sh1t. (*cough cough*)

OK, how about a straightforward, serious question...What positive contribution does "realfierotech's" forum section "RFT vs. the world" make to the Fiero community?

quote Soon we're going to need a "PFF vs World" section.

No, you see, that's the thing...you WON'T see that here.

Maybe I should rephrase what I am trying to say. I am not trying to bash RFT. I just find this forum to be the only forum on the internet not trying to prove it has the biggest dick. I don't think it is fair to trash Archie's track times. Ten years ago, if you wanted to go fast at the track you would get a V8 or a Mazda RX7. Now everyone is badass with their turbos. My tech has a BMW that is expected to run 9's this summer. And be able to drive to the track.
Who cares what the cars run. I put a V8 in my Fiero for the wow factor, not for 1/4 mile times...otherwise I would have gone the boosted route.
Dave

quote Originally posted by fierobear:What positive contribution does "realfierotech's" forum section "RFT vs. the world" make to the Fiero community?

zip. zero. zilch. nada.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: No, you see, that's the thing...you WON'T see that here.

Check the trashcan. The conversion has already started.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Check the trashcan. The conversion has already started.

There is no comparison. The trashcan is where one thread out of 100 (or more) ends up, and you can't start threads there. "RFT vs. the world" is a permanent, entire forum section with only one purpose.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I am not trying to bash RFT. I just find this forum to be the only forum on the internet not trying to prove it has the biggest dick.

That's because those of us with monster dicks don't feel the need to prove it. RFT was literally founded out of hate and a feeling of entitlement. It certainly wasn't because there wasn't ample serious Fiero TECH issues discussed here. Anything and everything Tech starts on Pennocks. The founders of RFT are simply, as stated above, former members of Pennocks who were banned because they couldn't get along with others. Many continue to come back here despite their disdain for the site. RFT has nothing new to add and has no positive value at all to the Fiero Community.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Everyone is pretty friendly and easy going. Everyone has good things to say to each other and is nice enough to keep their mouth shut if someone will get offended.

Youv'e never been to the O/T section, have you?

ROTFLMA

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Just a thought, before the RFT trashing starts. Did you think about posting this on RFT where it might do some good instead of just stirring up the poop?

In all honesty, Jeff, so you really expect criticism to be well received on RFT? The same people that spend their days reading PFF looking for something to mock and talk trash about would - *shock, surprise, disbelief* - mock and talk trash about any criticism anyone posted on RFT.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Anything and everything Tech starts on Pennocks. The founders of RFT are simply, as stated above, former members of Pennocks who were banned because they couldn't get along with others. Many continue to come back here despite their disdain for the site. RFT has nothing new to add and has no positive value at all to the Fiero Community.

Compared to the tech section here, RFT's regular tech section is much, MUCH better.
"Anything and everything Tech starts on Pennocks"

Members on PFF continue to IGNORE the fact that many well-established, respected forum members here are also contributing members on RFT. RFT isn't what it was 3 years ago, either in name, mentality, or content.

Nate

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Compared to the tech section here, RFT's regular tech section is much, MUCH better. "Anything and everything Tech starts on Pennocks" Members on PFF continue to IGNORE the fact that many well-established, respected forum members here are also contributing members on RFT. RFT isn't what it was 3 years ago, either in name, mentality, or content. Nate

Nate, the fact is that there is not a single tech thread on RFT that isn't on Pennocks...and likely started here first. Engine swaps, computer tweaks, turbo set-ups, or in my own specific case ---> I guarantee you won't find jack on RFT about Fiero Factory Power Steering, Super Duty Engine Build-ups, Webster gear driven racing transmissions, Saed LSDs, and more. I documented EVERY single step in the rebuild of a 2.8 in one thread; rebuilding the alternator? here; Porting manifolds? here; 4T60 swaps? here. You won't even find the word Plasti-Gauge on RFT. No comparison. You just need to bother searching for them through the superfical stuff that get's posted.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 07-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Members on PFF continue to IGNORE the fact that many well-established, respected forum members here are also contributing members on RFT. RFT isn't what it was 3 years ago, either in name, mentality, or content. Nate

I don't read RFT, so I don't know how good their tech sections is. But if what you say is true about "name, mentality, or content", then why do they still have the "RFT vs. the world" section?

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Compared to the tech section here, RFT's regular tech section is much, MUCH better. "Anything and everything Tech starts on Pennocks" Members on PFF continue to IGNORE the fact that many well-established, respected forum members here are also contributing members on RFT. RFT isn't what it was 3 years ago, either in name, mentality, or content. Nate

What possible reason would any PFF member have to care if RFT has indeed changed? It started off as "PennocksSucks" with the sole purpose of bashing this forum and Cliff. Since then some members have tried to make it a more "legitimate" forum and there may be some useful information on there. But why would anyone want to wade through the hoping to find a nugget of valuable info?

I gave RFT a second chance and thought, ok, maybe they've changed - I'll check them out. I was greeted with spam from Shaun from multiple email accounts. So why bother?

RFT will always be the island of misfits. There may be some intelligent people there with useful information, but they're going to be loss in the bile.

How long do you think it'll be before there's an RFT vs The [sic] World thread talking trash about this thread?

Let's not start a war here. The only reason I included RFT in the topic was the fact it is known around the Fiero community more so than Bimmerforums or SVTcrapracing....sorry, I was banned from SVTpoorperformance after an hour due to my Fiero being too fast. lol.
I just don't understand how on one thread a guy can be highly respected and on the other thread look like a complete joke. I didn't realize how RFT was started, but it makes sense now.
I enjoy browsing here as well as my wife does too. I'm checking in at least once a day....more so on weekends while my wife is out riding her horse.I don't want to see PFF start a thread PFF against the World!!! The biggest war I've seen here is between the 3800 and the V8 guys. Well, I own a V8 Fiero and I'm building a 3800 Fiero....Does that make me Bi-Fiero?
Dave

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Nate, the fact is that there is not a single tech thread on RFT that isn't on Pennocks...and likely started here first.

I challenge you to find a thread like this:

http://realfierotech.com/ph...viewtopic.php?t=1166

In fact, find one northstar turbo thread here that even mentions a GT-42 turbocharger and I'll paypal you $50.
(Yes, a turbo northstar thread directly affects me, so that's why I chose it.)

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: If you don't like the "RFT vs World" section, don't read it. A lot of crap gets thrown around in there, and it's very one sided because nobody stands up for themselves and posts over there.

That's not entirely true...

One day I was really tired of Mr Hammitt's bashing of my car after he had started a thread specfically to trash my car. So I joined RTF and posted on there. The interesting thing is that probably 90% of the people over there are decent, and many defended my car.

It's mainly Shaun and his close associates that have a vendetta against this forum and anything to do with Archie. The rest of the poeple are just as tired of hearing the crap as the rest of us. RFT would gain some credibility by deleting the "RFT vs teh World" But then Shaun would have no oultet for his tirades.

Clearly this discussion is too one sided and this entire thread is a waste of bandwidth


< -----proud member of RFT

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Former West Coast Fiero Employee
www.WestCoastFiero.com


Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Well, I own a V8 Fiero and I'm building a 3800 Fiero....Does that make me Bi-Fiero? Dave

Nope. But it could mean that you drive both ways.

------------------
Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

quote Originally posted by Chicken McNizzle: Clearly this discussion is too one sided and this entire thread is a waste of bandwidth < -----proud member of RFT

I didn't realize we were taking sides.

I am one of the guilty as i think every one should drive an american car, I realize that many think this is crap,but often a view point has to do with cars and it is valid but hate against the individual should not be on a forum I have been guilty in a minor way ,but slaming those like archie wh are the LEADERS. this is reprehensible,there will never be complete agreement,,you can not keep personal views out but it must be reasonable and have something to do with the forum unfortunately this is an important original post ,when i first saw it i thought what a waste of a post but 2nd thought it is about fiero problems and the people who drive them will have a personality .. I know every one will not drive an american car it just bugs me how we destroy our biggest industry and it has to do with cars stan

My Mercedes was built in Alabama if that helps.
Dave

quote Originally posted by fierobear: There is no comparison. The trashcan is where one thread out of 100 (or more) ends up, and you can't start threads there. "RFT vs. the world" is a permanent, entire forum section with only one purpose.

What do you want to do about it? Sure,Real Fiero Tech was started by people that weren't necessarily on Cliff's Christmas card list, and for good reason. And Australia began as a colony for convicts. Hawaii was a leper colony. Move on. You're all bent out of shape about one section that is the least important section. Why does it exist? Why not? Maybe people want to vent about people and situations without worrying about a rating. If you don't like how you're being treated on RFT, speak up for yourself where you'll be heard.

I think this is a joke, personally. Just more schoolyard gossip.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: In fact, find one northstar turbo thread here that even mentions a GT-42 turbocharger and I'll paypal you $50. (Yes, a turbo northstar thread directly affects me, so that's why I chose it.)

That's probably the dumbest thing I've read so far in this thread (and I've read a lot of dumb things so far from both sides of the fence). I bet anyone can find tons of things discussed here that have never been discussed there. And vice versa. That doesn't make one forum better than the other (or the other's tech section better than this one's).

I don't have a problem with RTFM. I believe PFF is mainly for people trying to keep their Fiero running. People can ask here how to change their oil, how to change a spark-plug, or even how to refill their windshield wiper fluid without being ridiculed. They can ask the simplest of questions, or the most complex questions here. That's what makes PFF a nice place. Because you don't have to be some Fiero Ubertech Geek (or FUG-er ) to be taken seriously and to be made feel at home.

But to say another place is better because something is discussed there and not here is, well, like I said pretty stupid.

And like I said, I don't have a problem with RTF or any other place. I have a problem with the people on those places rallying up other people to cause problems here. Or go and f-ck up my business forum. Or pretend to be me on a whole bunch of other places and post all kinds of "cool" "gay" remarks. Or forums that use *my* name as if I was one of the moderators (or make it seem I even visit those places for that matter). All that tells me is that apparently, these places can't get by on their own. They need to offer some incentive to get members. And usually that incentive is "PFF sucks, We are better. Cliff sucks. I am better".

But hey, I can already see in my referer log-files who is having a field day with this thread.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: ...but slaming those like archie wh are the LEADERS. this is reprehensible,

WTF?! Leader of what?! Because he kicks over a $100 a year to keeping this forum going he can push all of us around, even Cliff? Because he's been bolting smog motors on Fieros for 20 years, he's got to be relelvant to me in California? That's why I can't stand Cletus Archambault, because this kind of misplaced idol worship has gone straight to his head and he often acts like he owns the place.

Cliff, If you'd like to close this thread, that would be fine. It went in a different direction than I thought it would have. You are right that on PFF you can ask just about any question and not be made fun at. I posted the BMW supercharger build thread in the O/T section here and not on Bimmerforums because here people will appreciate it and ask questions. On Bimmerforums, people will beat it up saying the fuel line is 27mm too long in the one spot and so on. Now I am not trashing Bimmerforums, just stating the facts. I like Bimmerforums and have a lot of customers from there...I just know what to post and what not to post there.
I didn't expect RFT to flip out, but then again, I knew very little about them. i just wanted to know why they feel the need to trash everyone's Fiero. They wouldn't like my Fiero anyway. Why would anyone in their right mind want to try and syncronize and tune four carburetors with individual runners just to run in the 11's or 12's.
Dave

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1999 Mercedes ML430, 450hp 1987 Fiero GT, 1986 Fiero SE-soon to be 3800, certified master technician
www.njautobahn.com

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: WTF?! Leader of what?! Because he kicks over a $100 a year to keeping this forum going he can push all of us around, even Cliff? Because he's been bolting smog motors on Fieros for 20 years, he's got to be relelvant to me in California? That's why I can't stand Cletus Archambault, because this kind of misplaced idol worship has gone straight to his head and he often acts like he owns the place.

The thing is, Jeff, Archie has never declared himself leader of anything, except his own business. Yet others choose to look at him as a leader. We have many community leaders here whom others look to for answers because they've got the experience and willingness to help.

I don't know why you or anyone else should be offended that someone likes and respects Archie and his work (or anyone else's for that matter).

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: I believe PFF is mainly for people trying to keep their Fiero running. People can ask here how to change their oil, how to change a spark-plug, or even how to refill their windshield wiper fluid without being ridiculed. They can ask the simplest of questions, or the most complex questions here. That's what makes PFF a nice place. Because you don't have to be some Fiero Ubertech Geek (or FUG-er ) to be taken seriously and to be made feel at home. But to say another place is better because something is discussed there and not here is, well, like I said pretty stupid. And like I said, I don't have a problem with RTF or any other place. I have a problem with the people on those places rallying up other people to cause problems here. Or go and f-ck up my business forum. Or pretend to be me on a whole bunch of other places and post all kinds of "cool" "gay" remarks. Or forums that use *my* name as if I was one of the moderators (or make it seem I even visit those places for that matter). All that tells me is that apparently, these places can't get by on their own. They need to offer some incentive to get members. And usually that incentive is "PFF sucks, We are better. Cliff sucks. I am better".

And God Bless PFF for being here for those people. I remember learning all the things I wish I knew then on the pages of this forum. I still think my technical skills, needs, and comprehension put me far more in the demographic for Fiero.nl's brand of quick responses to simpler issues. When it comes time for my mechanic to start on my 3.6 swap, I'll be glad that the RFT Tech forum is there. Until then, I'll do my best to keep the swap-nerds entertained with a joke or two and maybe a funny story.

I've got no problem with fiero.nl. I've been at least lurking sice the Summer of 99. I love a lot of people on this forum. I respect Cliff, and personally can't fully comprehend why he puts up with all that he does. I know that I have caused him some grief and for that I feel terribly, and I respect that he has allowed me to return to posting here. I'm not certain if that was a wise choice on my part, as the same hateful, soul-sucking individuals that turned me off of this place in the first place are still in effect.

As far as all of your issues, Cliff, including the "moderator" status, etc. You have very valid points. Unfortunately, I'm not the one person who can change all that. I can only do what I can.

i relate those other "forums" to a pile of dog crap......i walk along, see a pile of dog crap, think to myself "that's disgusting, people should clean up after their dogs". i walk on my way and forget about it. no point in getting pi$$ed off. it's not worth my time. same with those other "forums". piles of crap aren't worth my time.

[This message has been edited by shawnkfl (edited 07-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I've seen Archie's work up close. It looks pretty damn good to me. Remember, he was putting V8's in Fieros back when they were still making Fieros.

And? That gives him a special rights on how he can behave on the forum? No disrepect to ou, but I can probably remember a whole lot more Archie then you. Hang around and watch for a while, I used to stick up for him, too.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I like this forum because not too often people get rude with each other. Everyone is pretty friendly and easy going. Everyone has good things to say to each other and is nice enough to keep their mouth shut if someone will get offended. So, Cliff, good work on starting a great forum. Dave

I think you've answered your own question "WHY" it's better on Pennock's vs. other forums.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Now with other forums out there, such as Real Fiero Tech for starters. WTF? It seems everyone there just wants to trash Archie and Roger Garrison as well as each others cars. Why all the hating and bad ass talk? It seems that every other forum I've seen is like this. Dave

They're just "hate n' on R. Garrison cause, "They ain't get'n some." If they did, they'd be bragging bout' it now, hehe. So what is they're alternatives to talk about? Archie...and everything that is associated with him which is a very, very sad state of mind. IMO, (they) resemble the type of obsession that is usually found with a scorned women.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: And? That gives him a special rights on how he can behave on the forum? No disrepect to ou, but I can probably remember a whole lot more Archie then you. Hang around and watch for a while, I used to stick up for him, too.

Honestly, I don't know much about Archie other than what I've seen in person, purchased from him and read on this forum. I think he is a stand up guy and respect him. I really, don't have any problems with RFT and sorry if I was a little harsh in my previous post. I am a master tech and could probably contribute to the RFT forum, but the first impression I got is that it is a teenage to 20's tuners forum. I grew out of that phase...I think. When I eventually take my Fiero to the track, I won't run slicks. I want to know an honest 1/4 mile time on street tires. I may not even run it at the track because I enjoy just driving it.
Again, I wasn't trying to bash RFT at all. Maybe I should have made the thread topic "Why is PFF a nice forum". Like I said, Last month my carbs were sneezing and my fuel ratios looked good. I posted this problem on a couple of tech threads and got bashed. Finally, I emailed inglese and they emailed me the fix in under an hour.
I like PFF because I feel that I can speak without anyone bashing me. I enjoy answering members BMW questions in my PMs, and at Carlisle I felt that I knew a few people I never met in person before due to this forum. I've never rated anyone, nor expect to be rated. As I state on my Myspace page....I'm not here to boost my ego.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 07-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Just a thought, before the RFT trashing starts. Did you think about posting this on RFT where it might do some good instead of just stirring up the poop?

yeah. that was helpful to the dialogue.