quote Originally posted by FastFieros: The WOW factor ? ? Does this WOWOWOW you >????? Loyde

Those 3800SCs look very nice! It's a great motor and it's a popular swap for many reasons... I may do one someday myself...

But as I and Doc John agree, for John Q. Public there is still more WOW in a small car big motor.

Even a crappy 4.9 gets respect in a Fiero because it's a big displacement V8.

Maybe it's a generational thing and supercharged V6's someday will make people's jaw drop, but when people ask if I have the 4cyl or 6 cyl and I answer "the 8" their jaws drop.

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: Who wants a V8 when you can have a 3800SC or a nice turbo V6?

I also would rather have a V8. Go ride in a 400hp V8 and then a 3800SC and you will agree right away.

Granted, bang for the buck many guys are getting 3800sc's in their cars for dirt cheap. but a very wise man once said.

There is no replacement for displacement.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 08-04-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: when people ask if I have the 4cyl or 6 cyl and I answer "the 8" their jaws drop.

lol I never get asked if its a V8 They know or don't car. These are 20 year old cars, most people could care less.
If you put a 400 HP V8 and a 400 HP V6 Fiero next to a 260 HP Cuda who would get more attention if the rest of the car looked stock?
What I'm trying to say is I guess the rest of the car needs some updating as well.

V6 V8 or 4 it doesn't matter if you don't keep up with all of the car. Thats what this forum is about.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: V6 V8 or 4 it doesn't matter if you don't keep up with all of the car. Thats what this forum is about.

I'm not sure if I follow you, but I don't think anyone is suggesting the engine alone is going to make a Fiero into a really nice car.

Most people know the stock Fiero is 20 year old technology and there is very little WOW in that.

What I'm talking about is if you have two equally nice Fieros, with body mods, chop tops, widebodies, or whatever...

and one has a supercharged V6 and one has a V8, (even a crappy V8 like a 305 or 4.9) the V8 will get more Oooh and Ahhhs. It's a fact.

I was doing a little research (yes, I'm one of the few that sometimes uses the search feature on the forum ), found this thread which led me to do a Google image search. Try it some time: 3800sc then count how many Fieros show up! Of all the cars that show up, the Fiero and Fiero engine bay shots dominate!

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I'm not sure if I follow you

I would rather have the Cuda

quote Originally posted by jscott1: ...What I'm talking about is if you have two equally nice Fieros, with body mods, chop tops, widebodies, or whatever... and one has a supercharged V6 and one has a V8, (even a crappy V8 like a 305 or 4.9) the V8 will get more Oooh and Ahhhs. It's a fact.

True.
My 3.4 car has a nice thump because of the headers and cam, and is quite probably faster than the 4.9 car. (The manual tranny doesn't hurt, either.)
But the 4.9 is the one that gets all the attention because it "has a v8".

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Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

I didn't install my N* for attention or oohs and ahhhs. I did it because its a modern engine with good performance.

The 3800 and iron block sbc's are both old technology compared to the LSX, N* and Ecotec. Not saying that they are not good engines but there is nothing technological about the 3800. 240hp from a 3.8L supercharged V-6 is quite low in todays world. The 3.6 VVT V-6 in my CTS makes 255hp naturally aspirated. That is truly technology replacing displacement / forced induction. Nissan is making over 300hp from a 3.5L V-6.

I would love to do a 3.6L VVT DOHC swap into my fiero. An all aluminum lightweight V-6 with good economy and power. I can see this being a popular swap in the future when these motors become more available.

The 3800SC has become a very popular engine swap because it offers many things.....available at a reasonable price, looks good, fits well, fairly easy to install , provides far more horsepower, gives good reliability, power mods are plentyful, and you'll get very good gas mileage. Its certainly not the only engine swap choice but many Fiero owners seem to really like it.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: and 3800SC Grand Prixs running in the 9's. . This dispelled the myth that "there is no substitute for displacement" to perhaps "there is no substitute for technology"

I was saying that there is nothing technological about a 3800sc. Its an old iron 2V pushrod V-6 with artificial displacement. Its no different than a supercharged iron V-8 minus 2 cylinders.

The 3800sc is a great engine for all the reasons you listed but it does have some disagvantages such as weight from being all cast iron.

I have absolutely nothing useful to say regarding the topic.... but... I have learned a lot just by reading the different opinions backed by good factoids. I thank all that have responded with good info and opinions. I also applaud Mr Goatie '02 (I can't bring myself to actually type his name 'cause it is too funny) for posting this thread with such taste (the topic title lead me to believe this was going to be the beginning of a flame war!) and keeping it On Topic!

Kudos!!

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Phil
Always trying to create something new!
Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)

they are popular because you can make insane power, get great gas mileage, and stuff like this https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/084063.html rarely happens. Plus they are cheap.

"There's no replacement for displacement"

well....I'd have to say Boost is definitely the replacement for displacement.

of course if you put equal boost on any motor, the bigger motor still wins

I think people finally realize that saying "it gets 35+MPG and runs faster than v8's", is alot more respectable than saying "there is 8 cylinders in there".

I think also some people are starting to see archie's not the "guru" he claims to be, and there are other go fast options out there that are not dependent on adapter plates and stupid alternator brackets.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I think people finally realize that saying "it gets 35+MPG and runs faster than v8's", is alot more respectable than saying "there is 8 cylinders in there". I think also some people are starting to see archie's not the "guru" he claims to be, and there are other go fast options out there that are not dependent on adapter plates and stupid alternator brackets.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I think people finally realize that saying "it gets 35+MPG and runs faster than v8's", is alot more respectable than saying "there is 8 cylinders in there". I think also some people are starting to see archie's not the "guru" he claims to be, and there are other go fast options out there that are not dependent on adapter plates and stupid alternator brackets.

Thats funny, so youre telling me you can out run a V8 and get 35 mpg doing it or you can keep your foot out of it and get 35 mpg?
Thats it everyone look in the mall I'm going to sell my car.

Aren't you familiar with darkhorizon's swaps? They get 35 mpg while running 11 sec. quarter miles, and only cost $25 to build. You can get low mileage 3800SC engines for free at the Good Will.

lol..good will...sure v8's sound sweet...and 3.8sc's dont sound as sweet at all..until you crack em opened and listen to that sc sing like FAT LADY at an all u can eat buffet....thats what sold me...tim

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I think people finally realize that saying "it gets 35+MPG and runs faster than v8's", is alot more respectable than saying "there is 8 cylinders in there". I think also some people are starting to see archie's not the "guru" he claims to be, and there are other go fast options out there that are not dependent on adapter plates and stupid alternator brackets.

You Think Wrong, you young Dork!
Good Luck
gary

I always have to laugh at the guys that put down the 4.9. It makes you fall into that same catagory of the people that will only stop to look at the V8's. Its like because its a V8 it NEEDS to make 400HP and its a crappy engine if it doesn't. Correct it doesn't have much of an aftermarket but that is kind of the point. Cadillacs are built for luxury. All of their motors give you a smooth comfortable ride while being decent on gas even while pulling around a car that weighs 4-6k lbs. The 4.9 was phased out in favor of the much heavier Northstar which in itself is just starting to get some kind of an aftermarket. The 4.9 is a very reliable motor that will not break the bank to install one. The powerband is great for a street driven car. It gets good gas mileage and keeps the cars weight about the same as it was from the factory and the install is simple compared to almost everything else. The fact is there is no other swap out there that will produce roughly the same power while maintaining the weight of a fiero. Even a 3.4 and LSx motors add weight. I cant say this enough... THE 4.9 IS NOT A PERFORMANCE MOTOR but it IS a good motor and in a fiero it is a blast to drive.

The 2 most important things to a cars performance are the tires and weight of the car. Both of these things affect every aspect of a cars performance from acceleration and top speed to braking to cornering. Driver and car ability is exponentially more important then HP. IMO the 4.9 is a perfect daily driver or stock replacement motor. I have searched many junkyards and have only seen a few with less then 250-300k miles on them. This says alot IMO. Its not a crappy motor its just not what people expect from a V8 because that is not what it was designed to do. Besides if I wanted to build a race car or very high performance street car the 4.9 would not be the motor of choice. I would probably have to start with an LS2 and build from there but that would depend on its purpose. Even then, all the HP in the world means nothing if the car weighs as much as a tank.

Cars should be designed for a purpose with the drivers ability it mind. Show, Go or budget, it all depends on the needs of the owner.

How many broken down 4.9's have you heard about on this forum?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-29-2007).]

Point taken on the 4.9 engine. Good engine for a daily driver, a little excitement and decent mileage.

BUT, put in a 3800s/c, add an intercooler, cam & pully and you have a screamer. I don't understand your "heavy as a tank" comment. If you have someone riding in your car with you (same weight added) does it suddenly become a slug that won't handle? The extra weight claim for a 3800 is a bunch of crap. Good shocks, tires & rear swaybar will have it handle better than most Fieros on the road.

That is my engine with the red valve covers in center of Loydes post at bottom of page one. Even the best dressed 4.9 can't begin to compare with a 3800s/c for looks and wow factor. I have a Flowmaster on mine and most people think it is a V8 when I pull into a gathering. When I open it up & they see the blower, they're certainly as impressed as if it had a Chevy in it.

After I spank a hot Mustang or Corvette, I like to rub it in by telling them I get 35 mpg cruising on the highway. With this engine you have the best of both worlds. I don't want to sound like I'm putting other engines down. I like them all. I just don't think I can find another all-round package that satisfies me like this one.

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87 GT Maroon 3800SC & White Formula

[This message has been edited by Dirty Harry (edited 11-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: It all depends on what you want the car to excell at. I have absolutely no interest in taking any of my cars to a drag strip so handling is much more important IMO. I do enjoy a nice start from the light but, a drag racer I'm not.

Is it either practical or even possible to make a car that excells at being both a straight-line dragster and one that is good at cornering? Don't you normally have to chose for the car to be optimized for one or the other? My understanding of engineering is that there is always a series of compromises.

Right in most cases on the compromises. But when you have a car that is totally streetable as a daily driver, has A/C, will get into the elevens on the strip, gets mid-thirtys mileage, handles great in corners AND is a ball to drive, then you aren't making many compromises.

I don't think many people set up their Fiero just to use as a drag car.

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87 GT Maroon 3800SC & White Formula

[This message has been edited by Dirty Harry (edited 11-29-2007).]

People routinely complain that any SBC V8 swap must handle like crap because of all the extra weight. Nevermind the fact that an aluminum head ZZ4 with a Getrag weighs about 30lbs more than a stock 2.8 automatic.

Considering the 3800SC is all cast iron, and it is a heavy engine, well they must be complete pigs in handling. I guess that's why 3800 owners only like to drive in a straight line, and try to limit it to no more than a quarter mile at a time. Any turns or longer distances might cause them to lose control.

A 3800SC with the stock 4t65 transmission is one of the heavier swaps out there. (the tranny weighs about 100 lbs more than a Getrag, for example)

But V6 fans will now chime in how great their car handles, but these same people will trash V8 swaps because the extra weight ruins the car. Funny that, isn't it?

So no, I wouldn't really rather have a Buick.

Agree with you on the weight factor but I don't think many 3800 fans put the V8 down for the weight problem or how it will handle. Properly set up, a 3800 or V8 will not be a problem. Once the driver gets to know the car (important) and has made the right changes, you can drift it thru bends and keep up with most other good handling cars on the road. The added power is certainly a benefit when used properly.

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87 GT Maroon 3800SC & White Formula

[This message has been edited by Dirty Harry (edited 11-29-2007).]

My prediction (a bit from the sidelines) that a few years from now it will turn into the "Turbo Ecotec LNF" forum, or smaller chance: "Some sort of DI V-6 (caddy maybe)" forum

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 11-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: My prediction (a bit from the sidelines) that a few years from now it will turn into the "Turbo Ecotec LNF" forum, or smaller chance: "Some sort of DI V-6 (caddy maybe)" forum

I have to admit, that's one of the coolest things about Fieros. So many possible engine swaps, and each has it's own distinctive character. Personally, I love all different types of engines, and my 3800 comment was intended with a bit of sarcasm - I just get so tired of the bickering.

For me, I could see doing a 3800 swap for the power and economy balance. It does give great fuel economy plus a good jump in power. But for shear joy, the biggest grin on my face, it would have to be a V8.

I'm waiting to see a 3.9 6-speed swap out of a G6, or the 3.6 DOHC 6-speed automatic (also from the G6). Those could be great daily driver performance setups with similar power to a stock 3800SC, yet smaller, normally aspirated, lighter, and likely better fuel economy. Then it will be the new tech of the 3.6 swappers vs. the old dinosaur pushrod 3800 with more aftermarket support.

quote thats funny, so youre telling me you can out run a V8 and get 35 mpg doing it or you can keep your foot out of it and get 35 mpg?

I dont think you will find any 3800 owners that disagree. Both my cars have ran consistent 12's at the track (12.5 with a 5speed get, 12.8 stock 4t65e), and got 30+ on the way there and back. My auto got a bit better because I have my timing curve all crazy for express way driving, YAY 94 octane.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: People routinely complain that any SBC V8 swap must handle like crap because of all the extra weight. Nevermind the fact that an aluminum head ZZ4 with a Getrag weighs about 30lbs more than a stock 2.8 automatic. Considering the 3800SC is all cast iron, and it is a heavy engine, well they must be complete pigs in handling. I guess that's why 3800 owners only like to drive in a straight line, and try to limit it to no more than a quarter mile at a time. Any turns or longer distances might cause them to lose control. A 3800SC with the stock 4t65 transmission is one of the heavier swaps out there. (the tranny weighs about 100 lbs more than a Getrag, for example) But V6 fans will now chime in how great their car handles, but these same people will trash V8 swaps because the extra weight ruins the car. Funny that, isn't it? So no, I wouldn't really rather have a Buick.

What the hell is your problem? I absolutely love how you group us all together, like we ALL rag on v8 swaps

If your are going to make rude and sarcastic comments, how about directing them at the person(s) you are really talking about.

BTW, I'd love to have a sbc with a 180* crank

OOOOO BOY!

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I dont think you will find any 3800 owners that disagree. Both my cars have ran consistent 12's at the track (12.5 with a 5speed get, 12.8 stock 4t65e), and got 30+ on the way there and back. My auto got a bit better because I have my timing curve all crazy for express way driving, YAY 94 octane.

12.5 and 12.8???

My normally aspirated off-the-shelf V-8 runs 12.3. Sorry I don't see how you are faster.

As for swaps, You can sit here and debate all you want about the pro's and con's of each swap. The bottom line is those that want a 3800SC are going to install a 3800SC. Those that want a SBC are going to install a SBC. The swap of choice is what the owner wants to install. It's called "Personal Preference". Nothing else will really matter to the owner except what they want.

5 years from now there will be a different V-8 and a different V-6 that people will be swapping into Fiero's. In fact it's already happening as folks are starting to do Ecotec, 3.6L, 3.9L, and LSx swaps. As technology advances on engines, so does the options of what to install in a Fiero. As aftermarket companies start making performance parts for the new engines, Their popularity will grow. Today the SBC has the largest aftermarket and the 3800SC is not far behind. Which is why both of the swaps are the most popular.

I can see it now, On PFF the hottest thread will be:
My 3900SC with tri-cams is faster than your LS10.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: I can see it now, On PFF the hottest thread will be: My 3900SC with tri-cams is faster than your LS10.

That's some funny stuff right there lol

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: That's some funny stuff right there lol

Yea, ten to 30 years after that it will by "my electric (or) fusion powered A/C induction motor" is faster than you dino oil driven "controlled explosion" motor.

this will be fun..

quote Originally posted by Dirty Harry: Point taken on the 4.9 engine. Good engine for a daily driver, a little excitement and decent mileage. BUT, put in a 3800s/c, add an intercooler, cam & pully and you have a screamer. I don't understand your "heavy as a tank" comment. If you have someone riding in your car with you (same weight added) does it suddenly become a slug that won't handle? The extra weight claim for a 3800 is a bunch of crap. Good shocks, tires & rear swaybar will have it handle better than most Fieros on the road. That is my engine with the red valve covers in center of Loydes post at bottom of page one. Even the best dressed 4.9 can't begin to compare with a 3800s/c for looks and wow factor. I have a Flowmaster on mine and most people think it is a V8 when I pull into a gathering. When I open it up & they see the blower, they're certainly as impressed as if it had a Chevy in it. After I spank a hot Mustang or Corvette, I like to rub it in by telling them I get 35 mpg cruising on the highway. With this engine you have the best of both worlds. I don't want to sound like I'm putting other engines down. I like them all. I just don't think I can find another all-round package that satisfies me like this one.

I like the 3800 also and it is going to be my next swap after I get done with the 4.9.

I like all of the benifits of the 3800 but for a daily driver the cost is just not where I want it to be. Weight is a big issue for me and the 3800 does weigh more but for that matter so do the auto trannies. For a daily driver the WOW factor is just not important at all to me and neither are the looks. I am one of those function over form type of guys. Now if I was building a show car that would be another story. Stock for stock the 4.9 and 3800SC are near identical in performance with the edge in gas mileage going to the 3800 and the weight advantage going to the 4.9. I was willing to trade that slight difference in gas mileage for the V8 sound and about 80 lbs less weight. But thats me and many others are different. I believe in design for the purpose the car is being used for and thats what I do. While most of you 3800 guys take your car to the drag strip from time to time I will be taking my 4.9 to the autocross track and through the twisties from time to time. I just cant drive in a straight line and if I felt the need to it wouldn't be a fiero I would use to do it.

I like red valve covers too. That fugly intake snorkel is just to keep the motor clean while I work out the real intake.

umm sure they are close in performance on paper...but honestly i would put my 3.8sc against any 4.9, and i know whos getting to the next light or whatever faster...and it aint the 4.9... tim

quote Originally posted by thismanyfieros: umm sure they are close in performance on paper...but honestly i would put my 3.8sc against any 4.9, and i know whos getting to the next light or whatever faster...and it aint the 4.9... tim

Stock for stock in the quarter mile the 3800SC should be faster, but stoplight to stoplight the 4.9 will surprise you. After the first 1/8th mile, though, the 3800SC will probably pull away.

i have been side by side with a 4.9 ..we both were running same tranny...and i wasnt hard to tell where his dropped off and mine kept going...not saying a 4.9 is a bad choice...like you stated its a nice cheap alternative to the 2.8...those who have em love em...thats what makes the world go round..choices and preferences otherwise this world would be pretty damn vanilla.....tim..ps the 3.8 is faster and undoubtly will pull away...even from the stop..

[This message has been edited by thismanyfieros (edited 12-01-2007).]

back in my supercharged days, I ran mid 11's, and got 31 mpg on the power tour. Turbocharged driving to wheatstock I got 28 mpg on the highway to Topeka. Nowadays, i cant stay out of the pedal long enough to test it. Mileage really doesnt matter when you only drive it a few thousand miles a year.

quote Originally posted by thismanyfieros: umm sure they are close in performance on paper...but honestly i would put my 3.8sc against any 4.9, and i know whos getting to the next light or whatever faster...and it aint the 4.9... tim

Of course you would, but your 3800 is not entirely stock now is it? If you want to race a 4.9 we can do that when mine is done. On one condition, not only do we go for some quarter mile runs but we would have to go down the twisties and do some 0-60 and 0-100 times also to get a full comparison. And of course some 100-0 brake testing also. Mine is not entirely stock either. ~250hp 325tq and 2500lbs but these are estimates before any power adders. My possible power adders will be either a WOT activated electric supercharger (NOT ebay garbage) or top shot nitrious system, maybe both depending on the final design of the intake. Neither of those would even be used other than the in quarter mile and neither will effect gas mileage during normal driving.

The only real difference besided the slight defference in gas mileage and weight is the powerband. The 4.9 is set low while the 3800 is set much higher. At low speeds the advantage goes to the 4.9 above ~60mph the 3800 takes it. Course there are modifications you can do to both motors to make them faster. The 3800 has almost everything bolt on that you can imagine. The 4.9 takes a little creativity or the use of more standard "hotrodding" tachniques to get much more out of it. You can change the cam, stronger valve springs, northstar pistons, or even changing out the rocker arms to roller rockers. Of course forced induction is an option which can put the 4.9 into the same catagory as a modded 3800SC all the while still saving on the weight. The 3800's upper limits are a bit higher. Anyways, anything you want can be done to either motor to make a car that will kill 99% of anything else on the road. Same choice as always forced induction V6 or V8. Remember we are comparing a boosted engine to a NA engine and we get aout the same performace overall. 4.9's just generally aren't modded as much or as often, but it can be done as PBJ and Rockcrawl have both proved. Rockcrawl = 13.3 NA, PBJ = 12.2 turbo on only 8psi. Everyone is always looking for the easy way to do things and that is why the 3800 is chosen more often. Its easier.

I would like to see someone actually take the 4.9 to the limits and see what can be done with it like the 3800 has been done so many times. I have heard that when they were being raced they got 500hp NA out of them. Maybe start with something like Rockcrawls and add a turbo to see what it can get up to. PBJ stated that they didn't want to break into the 11's cause they didn't want to add a cage which is required when running below 12's, that doesn't mean it couldn't be done just as the 3800's are.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-01-2007).]

3800's lose power past 4000rpms BTW.

hmmm if 3800's lose power above 4000rpms,,, they why does mine pull like a friggin freight train up to 6 g???? maybe my assometer is off??? err no..all the people i have taken for a spin in my car say the same thing...god damnnnn....some are even 4.9 owners, and some even play with N*....perhaps an auto looses after 4g but my 365 4 spd sure doesnt....
you wanna race sure no problem....what kind of budget do you want to set??? i havent done anything spectacular to my motor at all...just a N* tb-which some say doesnt do squat unless you port your sc and intake and i have to agree...its more for show...and i dropped to a 3.5 pulley...again more just for show cuz the stock 3.8 is ugly as hell...drop a number lets do some go fast goodies on each of our motors and see what the result is????? tim