quote Originally posted by jscott1: If it were any other car I probably would do the same, but I wouldn't VIN swap a MERA. I know a frame is just a frame, and even it you own both frames, I don't think it's an authentic way to restore the MERA.

I agree. I'm not big on VIN swapping. I'll photo document the entire process so if I ever sell the car the owner will know what happened. I just don't want to set myself up for the issues that can come up when a VIN is swapped. Worst case scenario is it's found out the state will take the car and crush it for having a fraudulent VIN. We wouldn't want that.

The car was headed for the shreader when I got it (they get tossed if no one bids on them at the auction) so anything salvageable is a step in the right direction. I'll probably cut the Mera VIN tags off just to keep as a souvenier

Wow, that was painful to look at.

Either way, strip the MERA. THEN make your decision about which direction to go.

Obviously the easier way is to exchange frames. However I must insist that it is YOUR car, and YOU get to do what ever YOU deem is correct for the car.

Option #1. If you are like me, and refuse to sell your projects and have no remourse for rarity, then the heck with the vin, heck with the rusted out chassis. Build the donor into a beautiful, Quite well powered MERA. You could sell it at a profit, but why?

Option #2. If you are like Jstricker, and believe that rarity must be preserved (Hey, not saying that is a bad thing by any means, it does command respect) then you will hack the donor completly apart, and rebuild the MERA chassis with every major component of it intact. This is FAR more time consuming, and you will have to be super attentive to detail. Especially with the metalwork. In the end you can sell it. But profit from it, you will not.

Option #3. The only thing I suggest you do not do is swap the VIN. Im sure you can get away with it. Im sure I could to. But it will haunt you every day for the rest of the time you own the car, and worse when/if you sell it. You really stomp the value of the car down when you decide to come clean about the VIN change to the person you are selling to. And if you don't come clean, you will have a guilty consience and you should be remourseful and ashamed of yourself.

Since you are apparently planning an engine swap, you've pretty much blown the second option, and the third option, really isn't a reasonable option. Obviously the first option is the most appropriate for your uses.

BTW, I have an Indy Fiero with tubular suspension and a Quad 4 HO. And a Silver '88 GT with a 3.4 DOHC swap. So, you might understand where I am coming from.

Although VIN swapping sounds highly illegal and unethical, I don't have a problem with it per se. If you are restoring a car from the frame up, and you have title to both frames, I don't see a problem with it. I'm just saying I wouldn't restore a MERA that way.

Since you plan to mod it, I say go with Option 1. It's your car, and if you plan to keep it and enjoy it, then you don't need to worry about resale value or disclosing how you restored the car.

If your state laws allow a VIN plate swap... then it is prefectly legal and morally justifiable.

In the personal aircraft world... VIN swapping happens ALL THE TIME, and it is 100% legal, as long as it was certified by a licensed A&P.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: It appears that it's time to do a frame off rsstoration on that Mera. You can swap all the body parts and build it around a clean 88 space frame then just remove and reweld the serial number plates onto the restored product. There is nothing unique about the space frame used on a Mera so you'd just be replacing OEM parts with the same OEM parts. THis should keep the Mera authenic but authetic/restored not authentic original.

That is what I would do, as long as you are still using the same year frame, etc there is nothing wrong with calling it original - as meationed by Dennis, you are replacing an OEM frame with another OEM frame - how is that any different than cutting off the rusted parts and welding on new ones? You would just be cutting off all the rusted parts around the VIN tags and replacing them with all newer parts around the tags - depends how you look at it.

On some older cars I heard they use to attach the VIN's to the dash pad, so if you swapped out the dash for a good one from another car and changed the VIN on it - is this wrong and how is that different than changin the VIN's on the chassis (as long as it is the same year, should it matter - all the numbers would match)??

You can check with you DMV and see what they have to say about swapping the VIN's in a restro project from an unusable chassis to a good one.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 09-14-2007).]

One thing I don't understand is the reason you can't get 300 rwhp from the SC. I know that with a smaller pulley and some high test gas you can add alot.

Just asking

Arn

Another way for the originaity guys to look at this is that this thing is so badly rusted, if I were to repair the space frame it would be a jigsaw puzzle of welded up pieces. Wht does THAT do to the originality? I'm not building this to sell, but IF I were a potential buyer I think I'd rather have an OEM unmolested frame than one that was hacked up and rewelded.

I'll take pics of the rust when we get the skins off. A final determiniation won't be made until then. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and it won't be as back as it looks with the skins on (yeah, right!)

quote Originally posted by Chad87FB: Another way for the originaity guys to look at this is that this thing is so badly rusted, if I were to repair the space frame it would be a jigsaw puzzle of welded up pieces. Wht does THAT do to the originality? I'm not building this to sell, but IF I were a potential buyer I think I'd rather have an OEM unmolested frame than one that was hacked up and rewelded. I'll take pics of the rust when we get the skins off. A final determiniation won't be made until then. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and it won't be as back as it looks with the skins on (yeah, right!)

There's no way I'd try to save that frame, it's toast...

VIN swapping would depend on state laws. Some states have legal process for this, some do not. One way or another, the correct way to do this is to rebuild it on an unrusted frame. HI might have generous laws for frame swaps due to the potential for rust, but you'll just have to find out. I swapped a frame on a Durango a few years back. Granted, it didn't have the dash vins, etc to deal with as it was a truck frame, but it was perfectly legal, and kept the same title/VIN after it was inspected by the local DMV. More recently, I swapped a body on a Dakota truck frame, and it was perfectly legal and kept the vin of the original frame.

The reason no one will often give you a straight answer in the DMV is that sometimes there are multiple options. For instance, in the Durango scenario above, the car took a medium hit to the front, damaging both frame rails. While most shops would pull them, or section new front frame rails in, I wanted it repaired "as new". The correct way to do this, though more time consuming, was to put a new frame under the truck. That involved swapping the entire body, engine, transmisison, suspension,etc onto the new frame. Probably took 40-50 hours.

In the Dakota situation above, I ran across a low mileage V8 Dakota involved in a light rollover. Normal practice would have been to repair the cab, bed, etc. by welding in new sections. Instead, again because I wanted it "as new", I decided a replacement cab/bed would be a better option. Again, not the easy solution, but in the end, it gives a better product - as if the vehicle were never wrecked. The frame/suspension/engine were all undamaged, so I just unbolted the cab (6 bolts) and bed (8 bolts), transferred them over, then proceeded to transfer the interiors between the cabs. In this case, the vin was attached to the dash, so when I transferred the dash over, it was automatic. All I did was replace a body part (the cab), which means their was no "technical" vin swap. This project took 30-40 hours.

Both were completely legal rebuilds, and both were DMV inspected/approved. However, one swapped the frame, the other the body, and I was able to keep the VIN that matched my engine, mileage, etc.

In your case, there' s nothing unethical about it, including a VIN swap (if legal). However, I'd add that any honest person should always disclose such procedures when they sell the vehicle (as I did in both cases). In my experience, the buyers appreciated the time I spent to do things the right way, and I expect any prospective mera buyer would appreciate it on your car as well. Just document it, and enjoy!

Josh

I have no problem with a vin swap. I'd get the best possible 88 chassis and do some careful drilling and pop riveting. And I'd keep my mouth shut about it. I don't think its immoral--illegal maybe. Which is why you tell no one, and don't make any disclosures if you sell the car.

When I did my panel off paint job, my chassis got a complete wash with strong detergent, a nylon scrubbie, and a good rinse. Then it got repainted with black engine enamel (there was no rust or even scratches in the sheet metal.)

As far as value, with a crapped out chassis the car is worth less than the Mera panels individually are worth. Mostly because it is most likely very unsafe and not road worthy. On a clean chassis, and as probably the only Mera in Hawaii, its value is difficult to calculate--bordering on priceless imho.

I wouldn't part it out. Most of us hardcore Fiero fans would trade our left nut for a Mera. I would probably have the panels repainted white, to match the Mera factory sticker, tho.

What's you have to give for it? Nice find!

quote Originally posted by Brian Lamberts: What's you have to give for it? Nice find!

Hehehe, you really want to know what I paid for it? Here's a little story on this car:

A couple months ago a guy came up to my shop and asked if I'd be interested in a Fiero with a Ferrari kit. I asked wha shape the chassis was in and he said it was real rusty. He also said he didn't think it was a Mera. I wasn't looking for a project, especially for the $2k he was asking, so I passed.

Last week this car came up at auction and was purchased for... are you sitting down?... $300.

Come to find out, it's the same car. Nor sure why the guy thought it wasn't a Mera when the ID tag is there plain as day. Sure glad I didn't go get it for $2k

quote Originally posted by Brian Lamberts: Most of us hardcore Fiero fans would trade our left nut for a Mera.

Not the left one, I'm left handed but the right one would be gone, for a nice Mera.

Anyone have any "official" information on Corporate Concepts? Specifically, documentation that shows the process to order a Mera and the relationship (partnership?) between GM and Corporate Concepts. Hawaii is very strict on "Kit Cars" and they seem to think this is one. I need to demonstrate that it was a factory-authorized conversion ordered through a dealership. PLEASE don't ask the rationale behind the rules... because it's stupid. I'm just trying to play their game.

Thanks,
Chad

quote Originally posted by Chad87FB: Anyone have any "official" information on Corporate Concepts? Specifically, documentation that shows the process to order a Mera and the relationship (partnership?) between GM and Corporate Concepts. Hawaii is very strict on "Kit Cars" and they seem to think this is one. I need to demonstrate that it was a factory-authorized conversion ordered through a dealership.

There is some information on the Mera in the spiral-bound book published by N.I.F.E. (Northern Illinois Fiero Enthusiasts) which is titled "Enthusiasts Guide to the Pontiac Fiero." It contains pictures and production figures for the Mera, produced in 1987 and 1988. However, in describing some of the changes to the Fiero for 1987, the following statement appears on page 21: "First year Mera option offered by Corporate Concepts --- not an authorized Pontiac option, but sold only through Pontiac dealers." The statement "sold only through Pontiac dealers" doesn't make the Mera sound like a "kit car," but the description "not an authorized Pontiac option" might not strengthen your case, either, given your comment about "the need to demonstarte it was a factory-authorized conversion."

I don't know whether or not the State of Hawaii would deem this "official," but there are 13 pages of information on the Mera in the 4th Quarter 1999 issue of "Fiero Owner," a magazine once published by the now defunct Fiero Owners Club of America (FOCOA).

Some of it may help your case. For example, on page 11 there are the following statements: "To buy a Mera you placed an order with a Pontiac dealer. He in turn placed the order with Pontiac, and they took a new Fiero from the truck and took it to Capac, MI to the Mera manufacturing place and the conversion was done. Once the panels had been removed, then replaced with Mera panels the fully finished car was placed back onto a transporter and sent to the dealer as a new car delivery. This process is called a buy through."

Earlier on page 11, "Capac, MI" is identified as the location of "Corporate Concepts Limited."

Also, the cover of that issue features a picture of a red Mera and a man standing next to it whom I believe is Rodney Dickman, a fellow PFF member and the founder of the "Mera Registry." I suggest you check out his Mera site which includes a copy of a Mera sales brochure, a Mera sales ad, a Mera article and a VIN decoder: http://www.fiero.net/mera

In any event, I hope this is helpful to you, and good luck with your Mera project!

quote Originally posted by project34: There is some information on the Mera in the spiral-bound book published by N.I.F.E. (Northern Illinois Fiero Enthusiasts) which is titled "Enthusiasts Guide to the Pontiac Fiero." It contains pictures and production figures for the Mera, produced in 1987 and 1988. However, in describing some of the changes to the Fiero for 1987, the following statement appears on page 21: "First year Mera option offered by Corporate Concepts --- not an authorized Pontiac option, but sold only through Pontiac dealers." The statement "sold only through Pontiac dealers" doesn't make the Mera sound like a "kit car," but the description "not an authorized Pontiac option" might not strengthen your case, either, given your comment about "the need to demonstarte it was a factory-authorized conversion." I don't know whether or not the State of Hawaii would deem this "official," but there are 13 pages of information on the Mera in the 4th Quarter 1999 issue of "Fiero Owner," a magazine once published by the now defunct Fiero Owners Club of America (FOCOA). Some of it may help your case. For example, on page 11 there are the following statements: "To buy a Mera you placed an order with a Pontiac dealer. He in turn placed the order with Pontiac, and they took a new Fiero from the truck and took it to Capac, MI to the Mera manufacturing place and the conversion was done. Once the panels had been removed, then replaced with Mera panels the fully finished car was placed back onto a transporter and sent to the dealer as a new car delivery. This process is called a buy through." Earlier on page 11, "Capac, MI" is identified as the location of "Corporate Concepts Limited." Also, the cover of that issue features a picture of a red Mera and a man standing next to it whom I believe is Rodney Dickman, a fellow PFF member and the founder of the "Mera Registry." I suggest you check out his Mera site which includes a copy of a Mera sales brochure, a Mera sales ad, a Mera article and a VIN decoder: http://www.fiero.net/mera In any event, I hope this is helpful to you, and good luck with your Mera project!

Thanks for the info. I pointed the inspector to that URL earlier today. The Mera may not have been an authorized Pontiac option but fact that the Mera held the full Pontiac warranty and used the dealer delivery network at least validates that the car was condoned by the factory.

The only place that you could buy the car was at a Pontiac dealership. That is about as authorized as you can get in my opinion.