The engine cradle swap, if you do it along with the front suspension swap *should* fall under the "update/backdate" rules, and be allowable without having to go to a "modified" class, since it is still a "Fiero" suspension.

Although I've talked to a couple of guys in my region that used to run Fieros, and they are of the opinion that the 88 is not a big enough difference on the autocross course to warrant a lot of effort to get one. Your experiences may prove otherwise, but I don't know if there would be enough advantage to warrant the expense. (Plus, if you just do big brakes, those are allowed in Street Modified IIRC, it's when you change the fundamental suspension geometry that puts you into the modified classes)

quote Originally posted by squisher86SE: The engine cradle swap, if you do it along with the front suspension swap *should* fall under the "update/backdate" rules, and be allowable without having to go to a "modified" class, since it is still a "Fiero" suspension. Although I've talked to a couple of guys in my region that used to run Fieros, and they are of the opinion that the 88 is not a big enough difference on the autocross course to warrant a lot of effort to get one. Your experiences may prove otherwise, but I don't know if there would be enough advantage to warrant the expense. (Plus, if you just do big brakes, those are allowed in Street Modified IIRC, it's when you change the fundamental suspension geometry that puts you into the modified classes)

The SCCA has always considered the 88 Fiero a completly different car. And it is. It's suspension is a complete redesign. Hense being in a different class. The rules in IT were the same as were SP.

Wish I could figure out this PIP. I scaned in a pic of my car to a floppy, but can't get it to PIP.
I ran SCCA road courses in a Formula 440 in the mid 80's.
Pocono, Charlot, Watkins Glen, Summit Point and Limerock. What a blast!
Kevin

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85 Fiero-based ASPP GT-40 MarkII. 3800 S/C, Auto, Held suspension all around with 2" drop spindles and sport fr. end. RCC bump-steer correction. Mr. Mike's interior.

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: The SCCA has always considered the 88 Fiero a completly different car. And it is. It's suspension is a complete redesign. Hense being in a different class. The rules in IT were the same as were SP.

Not for Autocross, although I am unfamilar with the GCR for club racing in its classifications. V6 Fieros are considered "E" stock in the Solo rulebook for 2007, and fall under Street Prepared Class C, Prepared Class F, Street Modified 2, and then a Modified class (from least to most modified).

The Prepared class allows for the use of double A-arm rear suspension, obviously a deviation from the McPherson strut setup stock on the 84-87s. Nowhere do I see a distinction between '88 and non '88 Fieros. That may be the case in club racing, or may have been the case in the past, but currently in the Solo rulebook they are classed the same.

Under the Street Prepared Authorized Modifications:

"Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if (a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken and (b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A( Street Prpared Classes)."

But the Getcha:
"The Updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance."

So the 88 cradle mounts differently, and a frame modification has to happen? Sounds like a rules "no-no" I was going off of memory before, but with the rules in front of me, it's pretty clear. Switching to an 88 cradle might also fall under the replacement bushing rule, where no replacement bushing can contain a higher metal content than the factory, Specifically prohibiting solid metal bushings for the lower classes (stock, CSP/SM, etc).

Here is why the '88 cradle kicks a '84 - '87 car out of CSP (Street Prepared):

quote The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allow- ance.

If the '88 cradle bolted right to pre '88 cars with nothing but turning a wrench they would be ok.

Here is why the '88 cradle kicks a car out of SM2 (Street Modified):

quote E. Suspension components are unrestricted as long as they use the original attachment points. For the purposes of this rule, “suspension” is defined as any item that is designed to move when a wheel is deflected vertically. This includes shocks and struts, control arms, steering knuckles, uprights, etc., but not tie rods, steering racks, and subframes. In addition, shock absorber/ strut upper mounts are to be considered suspension components.

Again I am not a rule maker with in the SCCA so I might be wrong. When reading the rules try not to "interpret" them. Just read what is there. And, for a better answer you would be best off to start a thread on www.scca.com to find out if the change to an '88 cradle is allowed.

quote Originally posted by Primaris: I'm not going to address the street side of your concerns, because that idea never entered my mind before this post. Thanks! :P But, for autocross you want the lightest rim you can afford. Its width ideally should match the widest possible tire that fits the car (or rules allow). For budget conscious I like TeamDynamics Pro race 1 and Pro race 2 wheels. They come in a wide range of sizes, widths, and offsets. http://www.teamdynamicsraci...mpetition_wheels.htm They are not the lightest but they are easy on the wallet and have proved to be strong.

Nice. I'll look into those. Thanks. I still have a few months til the car is ready to roll and there are crappy wheels/tires on it now. I can find a set of the trak-lites for 1000. That is the best price I can find for anything near that weight.

Steve Tamandli?

He just got his name & picture of his car in the Oct. 8 issue of AutoWeek. Pretty cool car, an 88 tube frame car with a 5.7L V8. Still getting after it at age 70. Very Cool.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Anyone know a Steve Tamandli? He won the modified "E" ( where I think I'll end up) class in a fiero in 92&93, 95&96, and 98. He has a couple other wins with some sprites in 85&88 also. Here is the problem with this class. This is all they list in the rule book. Modified Class E Modified Production and GT cars as follows. Minimum weight - 1700 lbs. Minimum weight when utilizing four wheel drive - 2000 lbs. I would guess that this means I will be going against pretty much anything as long as it weighs more then 1700 lbs. Guess the sprint car is out then.

We used to run our race car in E Mod. We were running against Lotus 7 clones that had more power, weighed 200# less, and had wider tires. Not much of a race. Try to keep your car Prepared class legal and you'll be a lot happier with the results.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: We used to run our race car in E Mod. We were running against Lotus 7 clones that had more power, weighed 200# less, and had wider tires. Not much of a race. Try to keep your car Prepared class legal and you'll be a lot happier with the results. John Stricker

Unfortunately it is already too late unless I can get in under the retro fit rule for the 88 cradle.

I guess forced induction is the only option and for it to be any good for auto crossing it would have to be a supercharger. Then come the tranny problems. Car is already light for a fiero being an 85 with no options except power windows and decklid release and staying light with the 4.9. Pretty stupid that a street car will have to run with race cars because I drilled holes in the strut tower to mount the 88 cradle. Drill two holes, go up a class, what a joke.

I've actually got a bunch of other options for all of the other classes. Including access to a 85GT with a so called "2.8" in it (firebird 2.8 punched out to 3.4). Looks/sounds stock but deffinately isn't. Stock classes are deffinately not a problem.

quote Originally posted by ccfiero350: Steve Tamandli? He just got his name & picture of his car in the Oct. 8 issue of AutoWeek. Pretty cool car, an 88 tube frame car with a 5.7L V8. Still getting after it at age 70. Very Cool.

Nice. I wonder if thats same car he was driving for all of those wins. Gives me an idea of what I would be up against, whoa. I mean really, a tube frame alone drops so much weight its rediculous. Add a built 350 and you got a contender for sure. You got pics of it?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-05-2007).]

hmm, our rules say that any engine that is not a backdate/update automatically puts you in modified with 4 preperation points.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Actually the 88 cradle is already in. It did bolt right in with the use of an adapter plate. Except for drilling the two holes for the top of the struts, it was a bolt on mod. As for the cost it was well worth the money. I got the cradle out of an 88 coupe from a guy up the street that parts fieros for 50 bucks, including the suspension parts. Add 100 for the adapter and 60 for poly bushings and the total cost was 210 for the swap. I could have left the bushings stock and cut the cost even more but I figured the extra torque of the 4.9 would warrent poly. You cant buy a bump steer correction kit for that amount of money so IMO the price is nothing for what you get out of it. Even if you had to pay 300 for an 88 cradle it would still be less then the bumpsteer kit. Now I spent some time reading the rule book and am still having a hard time classing this car. I'm thinking either street modified or modified but its hard to tell for sure. The engine is a modified production engine so it could go either way. The brakes are a rotor and caliper change but the calipers, lines, and master are still fiero. Obviously the rear suspension differs from the original equipment but again, still fiero. Tranny is changed but was still available for that year just not with the stock engine that came in the car. So I guess other then the engine and rotors the whole car is still using fiero parts. One of the other mods being done to this car that is bringing up the question of which class is the intake. I will have to modify the body and add a scoop (or at least cut a hole) to run it the way I want. This may lock me into the modified class right there.

One thing you have to remember when reading SCCA Solo rules is if the rules don't say you can do something, you cannot do it. The rules don't say you can use an adapter plate to update/backdate, so that means it is not Street Prepared legal.
I'm pretty sure since the '88 cradle is not legal update/backdate for the pre '88 cars then it is not legal for Street Modified 2. The reason being the '88 cradle changes the suspension pickup locations when compared to the pre '88 cars.

quote 16.1.E E. Suspension components are unrestricted as long as they use the original attachment points. For the purposes of this rule, “suspension” is defined as any item that is designed to move when a wheel is deflected vertically. This includes shocks and struts, control arms, steering knuckles, uprights, etc., but not tie rods, steering racks, and sub frames. In addition, shock absorber/ strut upper mounts are to be considered suspension components.

Here is an example of a legal Street Prepared modification. On early Focus ZX3's the rear sub frame is a bolt on peice and has the fittings for a rear anti sway bar. So since the Focus is listed as "Street Prepared Class F, Focus (NOC)" any model of the Focus can use the better rear subframe (Sedans, wagons, base models, etc.).

Excellant advise. New to autocrossing, yes. Not new to driving or even racing for that matter. Still, thats why autocrossing interestes me so much. Its more of an emphasis on the driver then the car and at HWY speeds no less. It would be nice to at least hang out with cars in the same league though. I'm just not buliding this car to hang out in the modified class. If I was doing that then the mods wouldn't be using fiero parts, thats for sure. I'll play with some of the stock ones and leave this car for the road car. Thanks again.

FYI. I would never actually drive the 3.4 and even try to pretend it was a 2.8. I believe in a fair race.

Its funny you should mention the Focus. My woman drives one and want me to fix it up for her. Its not the ZX3 though, its the SE model with sport suspension and Zetec motor. You got anymore info on this subframe?

[Quote]
Edit 2:
I think the sprint car would go into A Modified, since it isn't a production or GT car. Where it is over weight by 700lbs and would get destroyed
[quote/]

Maybe on the auto cross track but take it to the dirt oval and nothing will keep up, except maybe another sprint car.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Primaris: If you are new to autocross do whatever you had planed for the car, because if you are new it won't matter. The most important thing for a new person to autocross is seat time. Until you have a lot of seat time you're going to be getting crushed by the slowest stock cars driven by the regular autocrossers. So just get out there, have fun, and try to learn what to do for the next car you choose to autocross.

This is the most important point made so far.

If you're just starting out, class yourself as closely to the rules as you think you can get away with. Nobody will care until you start beating the regulars on a regular basis, then they're going to start classing your car more carefully. If you do start winning, though, I'd just tell them all you've done. It's really not fair to take regional points and trophies from someone with an illegal car, IMHO. When we started beating a car coming up from Oklahoma running in FP with us, we told them then we were running a 3.4 and not a 2.8 and nobody really cared, but technically we should be EM. You can run the '88 cradle in the earlier cars in FP, as I read the rules, but the 4.9 is going to kick you into EM.

With the engine change, anyone that knows the rules at all will put you in EM, but with the 4.9 you might be fairly competitive. We held our own with the 3.4 there, but just couldn't win in it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: This is the most important point made so far. If you're just starting out, class yourself as closely to the rules as you think you can get away with. Nobody will care until you start beating the regulars on a regular basis, then they're going to start classing your car more carefully. If you do start winning, though, I'd just tell them all you've done. It's really not fair to take regional points and trophies from someone with an illegal car, IMHO. When we started beating a car coming up from Oklahoma running in FP with us, we told them then we were running a 3.4 and not a 2.8 and nobody really cared, but technically we should be EM. You can run the '88 cradle in the earlier cars in FP, as I read the rules, but the 4.9 is going to kick you into EM. With the engine change, anyone that knows the rules at all will put you in EM, but with the 4.9 you might be fairly competitive. We held our own with the 3.4 there, but just couldn't win in it. John Stricker

Really? I figured the 4.9 wouldn't do it. Maybe modified isn't that bad of an option. The car wont need much but to go on a diet a little bit maybe eventually switching to some better suspension components or forced induction of some kind. Hmm, turbo 4.9 has been done but I've never seen a supercharged 4.9. That might be the right combo for auto crossing. I think it would probably be better to build a car FOR the modified class and race that. I'm estimating about 2500lbs complete and around 230hp 300 tq with the 4.9. I just dont know where that would stand with some of the other cars in that class. Any thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-06-2007).]

I don't follow the modified classes much. But, here are the results from the SCCA National Championship: Download results .pdf

1958 3ROTOR Sprite
1970 Lotus Europa
1956 Austin Healey 100-8
1965 TVR Griffith
2007 Brunton Super Stalker
1967 Sunbeam Tiger
2002 Sprinto 7 Locost
1975 Volkswagen Scirocco
1967 Sunbeam Tiger
1990 Mazda Miata
1988 Pontiac Fiero Out of the throphies by 4.108 sec But still fighting!
1998 Westfield SEi
1998 Westfield SEi
1966 Chevy Corvette
1958 3Rotor Sprite
2004 Chevrolet Corvette
2002 Sprinto 7
1967 Corvair V-8 Roadster
2006 STALKER V6 SUPE

Even with all your experience I would still recommend you get out to some autocrosses before making some decisions about what to do with a car. Autocross is very different from other motor sport venues. For example a road racer might see what 8 to 10 turns a minute? In autocross you can easily see 20 to 30 turns in the same sixty seconds. Plus there are no "tricks" to be pulled on your competition. You can't block to keep someone behind you, you can't out brake them into the turn for the lead, can't juke inside then gain position for the next turn, etc. and in autocross you are trying to hit each apex within 3 inches. Oh, plus be ready to work too. It's not hard or anything, but Autocross is an all volunteer thing. So when you are not driving you are pulling some sort of duty. Maybe chasing cones, timing, announcing, stuff like that. For some people this is a huge turn off. I don't get it.

PS I'll PM you about the Focus questions.

Interesting. There a few others that were in that class also on the next page including another 88 fiero. The 4.9 might do pretty well against some of those cars but I think a different car would do better. That 88 fiero that you mentioned is driven by Steve Tramadli that I had mentioned before. Looks like he is still driving the same car even after all these years. With the info I've got from you guys in the last couple days I am much more prepared, thank you.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-06-2007).]

If you're going to try to run EM, 2,500# is WAY too heavy. Our race car, which has been on a pretty extreme diet, weighs just over 1,900# with the 3.4. It's going to weigh a few pounds more when we get it done this time, but not much. I think it will still be legal for EM even with the new power. We are also adding at least a 4 pt roll bar and possibly even a cage.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Really? I figured the 4.9 wouldn't do it. Maybe modified isn't that bad of an option. The car wont need much but to go on a diet a little bit maybe eventually switching to some better suspension components or forced induction of some kind. Hmm, turbo 4.9 has been done but I've never seen a supercharged 4.9. That might be the right combo for auto crossing. I think it would probably be better to build a car FOR the modified class and race that. I'm estimating about 2500lbs complete and around 230hp 300 tq with the 4.9. I just dont know where that would stand with some of the other cars in that class. Any thoughts?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If you're going to try to run EM, 2,500# is WAY too heavy. Our race car, which has been on a pretty extreme diet, weighs just over 1,900# with the 3.4. It's going to weigh a few pounds more when we get it done this time, but not much. I think it will still be legal for EM even with the new power. We are also adding at least a 4 pt roll bar and possibly even a cage. John Stricker

2500 is my estimate for road ready. That is exactly why I figured on a diet. Since its already a modified class I can remove what ever I want to save weight. Spare/jack, interior, light weight wheels, ect. I fugure I can get it down to 2200 2300 or somewhere in there. Should be better with the 4.9 but it is not a race motor. I built it for reliability with a little bump in performance (street car). What did you do to remove that much weight? 1900 is a very good diet bordering on anorexia.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 10-06-2007).]

Not quite anorexic, but it will be before next year. Everything has been gutted. Batter moved to the front (going to be moved farther forward). Headlights removed, Trunk tub removed. Fender liners gone. Bumper structure gone. Rear trunk gutted (going to lose some more). No side glass. No interior. No dash. Back window is coming out when the roll bar/cage goes in. More of the trunk sheet metal is coming out. Seats replaced with race seats and harnesses. Mirrors off (replaced as necessary, but probably going with an interior wink style). There is more we can do. The wiring harness is coming out and going to be completely replaced with a custom race harness (copper is heavy). Replacing the Grand Am cast iron calipers with alloy when we go to 11.25" brakes. We run Goodyear race tires on lightweight steel Diamond wheels. All that is left is what is absolutely needed or safety related. Our goal is to have the car at 1900# after the re-power and brake upgrade, but that's going to be tough since we're adding the weight of the roll bar/cage.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: 2500 is my estimate for road ready. That is exactly why I figured on a diet. Since its already a modified class I can remove what ever I want to save weight. Spare/jack, interior, light weight wheels, ect. I fugure I can get it down to 2200 2300 or somewhere in there. Should be better with the 4.9 but it is not a race motor. I built it for reliability with a little bump in performance (street car). What did you do to remove that much weight? 1900 is a very good diet bordering on anorexia.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 10-06-2007).]

Very nice weight!

I just weighed my '88GT and it tipped the truck stop scale at 2,860! Where the hell is all that weight? It is 10lbs heavier than my SVT Focus!

quote Originally posted by Primaris: 1967 Corvair V-8 Roadster

Never heard of that conversion before. Sounds interesting. Any idea if the engine was in the front or back?

quote Originally posted by SCCAFiero: Never heard of that conversion before. Sounds interesting. Any idea if the engine was in the front or back?

Charlie Friend of Alamogordo, NM, owns this one and open road races it. It will run over 170 mph.




We also have a V8 conversion in SCCA Midwest Division that runs T-3, IIRC. Very fast car.

John Stricker

I've just started autocrossing a couple of months ago and all i can say is its the best amount of money ive ever spent to do somthing on the weekends. with an all stock 2.8 4sp its not actually that bad. Ive pulled my times lower and lower everytime. But also theres this one cocky guy there with an s2000 that is always talking crap about the fiero. Last time i came within half a second of his fastest time and he has intake exhaust.But i recently just bought some drag radials from somone for 70 bucks and they have decent tread left on them. They are bf goodrich t/a radials 225/45/17. ive messed with them on the car and all i can say is wow! 50 degree weather not heated up they can hold a 4k drop without a spin. But for autocross they will be around a 2800k to 3k drop. The real problem that i see with the fiero is understeer but with any mr layout you have some of it.

quote Originally posted by 06invertmini: I've just started autocrossing a couple of months ago and all i can say is its the best amount of money ive ever spent to do somthing on the weekends. with an all stock 2.8 4sp its not actually that bad. Ive pulled my times lower and lower everytime. But also theres this one cocky guy there with an s2000 that is always talking crap about the fiero. Last time i came within half a second of his fastest time and he has intake exhaust.But i recently just bought some drag radials from somone for 70 bucks and they have decent tread left on them. They are bf goodrich t/a radials 225/45/17. ive messed with them on the car and all i can say is wow! 50 degree weather not heated up they can hold a 4k drop without a spin. But for autocross they will be around a 2800k to 3k drop. The real problem that i see with the fiero is understeer but with any mr layout you have some of it.

I think you'd better save the drag radials for the straight line stuff. They're designed with only straight line traction in mind and as you know now autocrosses have little to no straight parts. If you want to see a big difference in time get some falken RT615's. They're not the best but they're really cheap and work really well for autocrosses.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If you go back and search in (I believe) the technical archives, a few years ago I weighed stuff as I took it off. Side windows are HEAVY. So is the Carpeting. The first 3-400 pounds is easy, after that it starts getting harder. John Stricker

So how about some tips? What is the easy stuff you can do to remove 3-400 lbs? That would get my car down to a very resonable ~21-2200lbs that I would be very happy with. ~2 months to go til I can drive it for the first time.

we have one 1988 fiero fomula 2.8-L V6 and we run the south florida trakes pic will be up soon I have lot's of them.

I second the "leave the DR's to the dragstrip" advice. You can get full blown slicks with almost full rubber for $35 - $70 each. Of course they're not legal in Street Prepared classes. They're not DOT approved. I never asked my tire guy if he could get the DOT tires though. Maybe he can. If you're just in it for the sake of fun, jump to race class.

I've been running a Fiero since December of 2004. I haven't ever done any National events, in fact not even SCCA. We have another local club here (MSCC - Martin Sports Car Club) that I'm a member of. The Fiero has been pretty competitive for me. 2280lbs according to the garbage dump scales. I use WCF 350 lb front lowering springs and 350 lb coilovers in the rear with KYB's all around. I think the front still needs to be stiffer. I get nose dive under heavy braking and the tires (225/50/15 V710's) rub the front fenders just a hair. The car is kinda crappy looking and sounds like it's gonna fall apart when you're running it but it's a blast. I've recently been running my friend's 85 RX7 GSL-SE while we build it and tweak it. We've added a Holley 650 4bbl double pumper and exhaust header to the stock 6-port 13b rotary and it's really got balls now. I have been losing by less than a second to cars that have 50-100 hp more than us for the past 6 months. We were still having carb issues causing the car to stumble and spit under hard cornering and not firing back up for a second after corner exit at the last event but I think I have them worked out now. I still was only .6 behind 1st place (supercharged mini with mods). But I'm sick of 2nd place. If the car it as dominant as I expect it to be, the Fiero may take next year off. It's fun to drive but the RX7 is in the same class and should be much faster.


Crytical Point - We've got to get together sometime. I assume you race with CFL SCCA?


*** EDIT *** Forgot the pictures

[This message has been edited by 2002z28ssconv (edited 11-29-2007).]