...we did not have the window bolted in at all. We put it inside the door where it belongs, then closed the door and maneuvered it fore & aft & up & down & angled slightly to left or right to get the best fit we could find....
Archie
It seems to me that just a few tweaks and a bit more curvature would yield an acceptable fit, with some adjustments to the track, (and no cutting)?
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 08-21-2008).]
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12:10 PM
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
I assume you are talking about tweeks to the glass? There is no way without widening the roof that you can make these fit without cutting into the door, sorry. I have my door apart and can get some pictures. It is in a different town though so give me a week.
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04:00 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I assume you are talking about tweeks to the glass?
Yes, I mean have new glass made with just a bit more curvature and perhaps a slightly different shape on the leading and trailing edge. Just enough such that the glass can have an acceptable fit without cutting anything. I understand that is not possible with the current shape of the window and vehicle.
But I am afraid to park my car anywhere unattended when someone can just pull back the "window" and reach inside. I NEED GLASS!
I assume you are talking about tweeks to the glass? There is no way without widening the roof that you can make these fit without cutting into the door, sorry. I have my door apart and can get some pictures. It is in a different town though so give me a week.
I am willing to bet that they will fit with a little work to the door. I just happen to have looked over a Mike N. glass chop this weekend and I still have to say his chop is hands down the best I have seen. I have a feeling in the near future that a chop done by " The Other Guy" will be getting nice glass windows and also will be getting the Pass side part of the chop corrected beings its doesnt match the other side. Glass is the only way to go so its time others stepped up and spent the money and got away from plastic windows that you have to hold when closing.
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05:16 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Glass is the only way to go so its time others stepped up and spent the money
There are a small but vocal group of chop top owners that desperately WANT to buy glass windows...but alas none are available. If only someone were to organize a group buy, life would be great.
As several people know I've spent part of the last 3 months or so in an attempt to get glass windows made that would follow the shape required to fit my chop tops.
If you all will go back to page 1 of this thread you'll see the evaluation that joshua & I did my windows, Mike's window (that joshua brought with him) & a stock Fiero side window.
If you reread that carefully, we established that Mike's window has less curvature than a stock Fiero window & my window had more curvature than the stock Fiero window.
After consulting with 3 different glass makers, I then picked one of them to send my master window to. After talking to 3 of their engineers I learned what I had suspected all along.
Here's how it goes.
If you look at a stock Fiero side window you'll see that it has more curvature at the bottom of the window than it has at the top. The Glass engineers call this a "compound" curve.
If you look closely at my windows, you'll see that it has even more of a compound curve than the stock Fiero window has. My window does have to have more curve than a stock Fiero window. After all the roof isn't any wider & it's 3" lower, so it's gotta have more curve.
If you look closely at Mikes window that joshua has in his possession, you'll see that it has the same radius or curvature all the way from the top to the bottom. The Glass engineers call this a "barrel" curve.
A barrel window is made by bending a proper pc. of safety glass over a tool with a constant curve in it. This would be a curve like you would find by bending somethng around the outside of an appropriately sized barrel. That's why they call it a "Barrel" window.
The big difference is the cost of tooling & maunfacturing.
The tooling cost of a set of barrel windows is only a few thousand $$$$, which could be spread out over the course of a batch of say 25 sets of windows.
However a compuund curve window like that seen in a stock Fiero & most every other production car window is a lot higher. I was quoted $100K to $120K for tooling alone. If I was going to be building 330,000 Fieros over a period of 5 years, the tooling costs would be easy to amortize that cost over all those windows. However, spreading those tooling costs over 25 or even 50 custom Fieros is not going to be a responsible investment no matter how you look at it.
Some people keep saying that Mike's windows will fit. Mike even says they'll fit to a knat's asas. However, I've built 25 of them so far & I stand by my statements that they won't fit to the degree that my customers would expect. That group can say it anyway they like, but a window that has considerably less curve than stock Fiero window isn't going to fit correctly into a car that requires a window that has considerably more curve than stock Fiero window.
jushua has just offered to take pictures of his window & answer questions, if anyone still has qusetions.
Back when I did my Fiero Chop Top I accepted the fact that it would be too expensive to make compound curve side windows & I chose to use the windows that I used.
The first time I saw Rich Warber's Chop Top Fiero (he didn't have any roll up windows at that time), I walked around the car a dozen times trying to figure out what made that car look so special & only after I heard someone say "Chop" did I realize what made it so special. Rich was retired at the time, but I offered him a job & he accepted that same day.
If he had widened the roof to fit barrel side windows, he would have had to make the "A" pillars wider at the top & would have had to make the 1/4 windows stand more straight up to match the curve of the barell window.
That would have taken away the "look" that attracted me to Riches car.
So, yes, you can design a car around windows that don't have enough curve, but I'm not & never have been interested in doing that.
In conclusion:
1.) I'm not going to be doing glass windows if the tooling is going to cost $100K.
2.) Everyone of my ChopTop customers knew, before they made a decision to do a chop top, what type of windows it included.
3.) No matter how much BS some of these guys put out, it isn't going to change the facts about fit as discussed on page 1 of this thread.
4.) If someone wants to plunk down $100K to finance a group buy for windows that fit the car as designed, I'll be happy to give them all the information I have.
Thanks
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-21-2008).]
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10:41 PM
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
I got the pictures today. I have dial up and emailed them to myself and it takes forever so if someone wants a copy or wants to post them pm me your email and I'll forward you a copy.
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11:32 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Archie: The tooling cost of a set of barrel windows is only a few thousand $$$$, which could be spread out over the course of a batch of say 25 sets of windows.
However a compuund curve window like that seen in a stock Fiero & most every other production car window is a lot higher....
Thanks
Archie
Archie, thanks for the update....
I don't think anyone expects you to front $100K for the tooling to make glass windows exactly like the chop top windows we presently have today.
But I know this is painful to consider, but it might be possible to get an acceptable fit with a barrel curve, with a tighter radius than Mike's windows, maybe less than the current windows, but still better thank Mike's. It might not be a drop in replacement, but it might be possible to do it without making it look like a hack job.
Yes, every one of your customers accepted the current windows when we agreed to have chop tops. But that doesn't mean that we can't dream for something better. Maybe the dream is just a dream, but Mike's windows, as imperfect as they are, CAN be made to work at some level. I have to believe that a second iteration would be better.
I have a set of Mike's windows in my parts room, and as much as the idea pains me, if a better set of chop top windows never materializes one of these days I will install the imperfect glass.
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11:51 PM
Aug 22nd, 2008
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
I don't think anyone expects you to front $100K for the tooling to make glass windows exactly like the chop top windows we presently have today.
But I know this is painful to consider, but it might be possible to get an acceptable fit with a barrel curve, with a tighter radius than Mike's windows, maybe less than the current windows, but still better thank Mike's. It might not be a drop in replacement, but it might be possible to do it without making it look like a hack job.
Yes, every one of your customers accepted the current windows when we agreed to have chop tops. But that doesn't mean that we can't dream for something better. Maybe the dream is just a dream, but Mike's windows, as imperfect as they are, CAN be made to work at some level. I have to believe that a second iteration would be better.
I have a set of Mike's windows in my parts room, and as much as the idea pains me, if a better set of chop top windows never materializes one of these days I will install the imperfect glass.
just in case you try to edit this.
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12:38 AM
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
And if you really have a boner for not using Mikes windows then do a search for curved glass. A lot of companies will show up. Buy some glass, cut and drill the glass and send it in to be tempered. I did it for my rear window, without the curve of course.
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12:56 AM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
But I know this is painful to consider, but it might be possible to get an acceptable fit with a barrel curve, with a tighter radius than Mike's windows, maybe less than the current windows, but still better thank Mike's. It might not be a drop in replacement, but it might be possible to do it without making it look like a hack job.
It's actually not all that painful, I had considered that. However a couple of points came up.......
1) I don't have enough time to go back & look this stuff up to get exact quotes etc. & I'm going to be out of town for several days but..... If you remember back when Mike got his 1st set made, he didn't like the amount of curve in them & went back to the glass place to ask for more curve. As I remember it, he reported that they couldn't do more curve.
2) As you now know, a barrel window has a constant radius from top to bottom. The engineers at the glass place I was dealing with told me that barrel windows are actually bent over the radius & that there was a physical limitation of minimum radius that windows could be bent before breaking. this would seem to concur with #1 above. I don't recall what that radius is but I can call them back to find out. If you have a set of Mikes windows there you could could have the radius measured accurately in just a few minutes on a CMM.
3) If it is indeed possible to bend a barrel window to a tighter radius than what mike had made, what radius would that be? Do we have the time to make 3 or 4 sample windows with different radii, then cut them out & fit them to 2 or 3 different chop top cars? Remember that we'd have to modify the window mounting on those test cars to determine what would be an acceptable fit. When we prototyped the original windows on my car, we had a pc. of 1/4" steel plate rolled several times before we had an acceptable curve. then we made the vacuum forming tooling off of that plate. You can't make the prototype windows out of plastic because you don't have anythng with thjat large of a radius to bent it over.
It could be done, but it would take some time & a lot of fitting. You'd very likely bugger up a couple of chop top doors before you had it figured out.
You probaly have access to a CMM someplace at work, find out what that radius is.
Talk to you when i get back.
Archie
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12:59 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Archie: It could be done, but it would take some time & a lot of fitting. You'd very likely bugger up a couple of chop top doors before you had it figured out.
...
Talk to you when i get back.
Archie
Yeah you make perfect sense...anything other than what we have today turns into a research project. It can be done, but who is going to pay for the research and development.
Joshua I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. There is a world of difference between flat and curved glass. Anybody can cut and temper flat glass. I have spoken to just about every curved glass company in the country and they are not exactly jumping at the opportunity to make a single set of windows for a broke Fiero owner.
I'm not wanting to use Mike's windows because I bought them for my homebrewed chop top, (which I sold). I am not wanting to cut up my Archie Chop top that I just spent 4 years trying to put together.
The Pass NB section if you are looking from behind the car doesnt match the DRV side in the way that is set. I noticed this on a NB chop that is local and was done a few year ago. Then at the 25th I noticed the same defect on the Stinger that was done many many years ago. Looks like the mesurement they use for that side versus the other side is off and hasnt been changed. You can really notice the differance if you stand being the car about 30 foot or so. I might be able to get a picture of the local car if its needed.
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04:02 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
The Pass NB section if you are looking from behind the car doesnt match the DRV side in the way that is set. I noticed this on a NB chop that is local and was done a few year ago. Then at the 25th I noticed the same defect on the Stinger that was done many many years ago. Looks like the mesurement they use for that side versus the other side is off and hasnt been changed. You can really notice the differance if you stand being the car about 30 foot or so. I might be able to get a picture of the local car if its needed.
Interesting, the only NotchBack Chop Top in Texas or any surrounding state is Will Martins car at Loyde's
Since you talk like you have enough access to Loyde to be able to arrange to dig the car out of the weeds & have a photo shoot, maybe you can furnish Will with whatever phone number you use to get ahold of Loyde when no one else can.
You want to diss me so bad that you start flopping your mouth. Then your jabbering reveils that you & a few other TX Fiero people still have easy access to a guy that many other Fiero people on this Forum would like to talk to.
What do you guys do when you all get together? Do you sit around & laugh at all of Loyde's customers who have cars & projects sitting around there?
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-22-2008).]
I have only seen 3 choptops, wills was the only finished chop . I have been told by 2 people now that have seen will's car that its lopsided. When I saw wills car I wasn't paying attention so I can't say for sure weather it was or not. I respect the opinion of one of the 1 of the people who said it was off, the other I don't simply because he hates archie with a passion.
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05:31 AM
Will-Martin Member
Posts: 1164 From: DFW, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2002
I have only seen 3 choptops, wills was the only finished chop . I have been told by 2 people now that have seen will's car that its lopsided. When I saw wills car I wasn't paying attention so I can't say for sure weather it was or not. I respect the opinion of one of the 1 of the people who said it was off, the other I don't simply because he hates archie with a passion.
I need to jump in here. I have not seen any "lopsided" chop for myself, although MstangsBware said he spotted it when he visited Loyde some time ago. I spent about 2 days with the car after Archie chopped it, but it was strapped to a trailer and I dropped it off at Loyde's house. I have literally not seen my car since then so I could not tell you.
jmbishop probably saw it when it was at a NTFC meeting when Loyde drove it up there as a 3800SC.
All I know is I wish it was finished and on the road!
--Will
[This message has been edited by Will-Martin (edited 08-23-2008).]
Since you talk like you have enough access to Loyde to be able to arrange to dig the car out of the weeds & have a photo shoot, maybe you can furnish Will with whatever phone number you use to get ahold of Loyde when no one else can.
You want to diss me so bad that you start flopping your mouth. Then your jabbering reveils that you & a few other TX Fiero people still have easy access to a guy that many other Fiero people on this Forum would like to talk to.
What do you guys do when you all get together? Do you sit around & laugh at all of Loyde's customers who have cars & projects sitting around there?
Archie
No since in brining up another issue that has nothing to do with this Thread to get the attention off the topic at hand. The issue going on with others and there cars has nothing to do with me. The fact that I was at a certain place months ago doesnt apply to the topic at hand.
I wasnt going to bring any names up but since you did then yes I am talking about Will's car. It is lopesided side to side on the NB area when standing behind the car at a distance. It looks just like the Stinger does if you look at it from behind at a distance. It is very obvious when looking at the car from str8 on from the back side. Not forsure why the NB chops turn out like this but I am guessing wrong measurments.
------------------ 1986 GT Fiero Owner & Enthusiast For Fiero updates, visit my site and don't forget to click on the ads! http://educatorstop15.we.bs/fieropage.htm
Since you talk like you have enough access to Loyde to be able to arrange to dig the car out of the weeds & have a photo shoot, maybe you can furnish Will with whatever phone number you use to get ahold of Loyde when no one else can.
You want to diss me so bad that you start flopping your mouth. Then your jabbering reveils that you & a few other TX Fiero people still have easy access to a guy that many other Fiero people on this Forum would like to talk to.
What do you guys do when you all get together? Do you sit around & laugh at all of Loyde's customers who have cars & projects sitting around there?
Archie
That has to be the worst post I've ever seen from Archie. Sure Will is having trouble getting his car, but what provoked Archie to bash the NTFC?
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09:14 AM
Chicken McNizzle Member
Posts: 1310 From: Valencia, CA Registered: Jan 2004
I would never normally post in a thread like this, but since I am a proud member of NTFC and because it's about time someone mentioned the 'crooked roof effect' I feel I might as well.
#1. Do we sit around and laugh at people who can't contact Loyde? Of course we don't. We feel bad for those people and on more than one occasion we have tried to help people find him, including a trip out to his place after a meeting where 4-5 of us escorted a 'customer' out to Loyde's place to see if we could catch him there since he would not answer anyone's phone call. Even if Loyde has not taken any of our money he has still let us down as a club, and none of us find that the least bit amusing.
#2. I have seen Will Martins chop, Leroy's chop, the Stinger, and the Taz Devil chop... They have all been uneven across the rear section of the roof, and the notchbacks both have flaws up the A-pillars as well. If you stand behind the rear of these cars and look directly across the horizontal plane of the roof it will have a wave, or at best lean to one side. It is not really obvious, I am a perfectionist and exceedingly detail oriented, I just happened to be nit-picking Will Martin's car at a NTFC meeting years ago (because overall it is gorgeous and I wanted to appreciate the finer points) when I noticed, and since then have inspected the other chops just out of curiousity. Will Martin's car also has alot of uneveness up the A pillars, this was hard to see without paint but was very noticeable by running your hand over it. The roof on Leroy's car has waves across the roof section of the rear clip, enough that I noticed them in the dimly lit parking lot. I am afraid these will be even more noticeable once it's painted, because light will not create an even reflection over it's surface. The Stinger is an amazing car, to this day it is my dream Fiero and even with it's faults I do not hesitate to say that. However, it has the same issues as the previous cars (as well as the triangular pieces behind the mirror being tucked behind the pillar and bulging to create unsightly gaps). I did not inspect the Taz. car as closely as I have these others, but from the Texas site at the 25th to where he was parked I was able to see the same issue with the roof section.
#3. I have seen Mike's chop in person and I was very impressed. His car had no waves, no off angles, no unevenness what so ever. It was obvious he had put alot of time into making sure everything was exact. However, the angle of the windows was not as attractive as the angle of the windows on Archie's chops. Does having glass outweigh difference in position? That is a tough call and a personal choice. I don't think anyone here really cares about the amount of work or cost of paying someone it would take to make Mike's windows work, or else they probably wouldn't have chops in the first place. So, seeing as how it comes down to function vs. style in the end and each person will eventually decided which is most important to them, how much longer does this discussion need to go on?
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04:04 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I am a perfectionist and exceedingly detail oriented,
Wow, wait until you see my car again, I'm sure you can find a hundred or more flaws in it! Thanks for your observation. What I'm looking for is a viable alternative for the windows I have. Everyone says just call up a glass company. Don't you think if it was that easy that Curley, Leroy, Will Martin, myself, etc would have done that by now?
From Archie's explanation is seems that there is currently no economically viable way to make a compound curved glass with the steep bend that his chop tops need. Can Mike's windows be installed...obviously anything's possible. Would be be perfect? Obviously not. Good enough? Hard to say.
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04:23 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
I am a perfectionist and exceedingly detail oriented,
. I have seen Mike's chop in person and I was very impressed. His car had no waves, no off angles, no unevenness what so ever. It was obvious he had put alot of time into making sure everything was exact. However, the angle of the windows was not as attractive as the angle of the windows on Archie's chops.
So from your observations and the fact that you find the angle of Archie's chops more attractive………… do you think Mike's windows would fit an Archie chop to a nats ass? Or do you agree they have different angles and won't work....
I would never normally post in a thread like this, but since I am a proud member of NTFC and because it's about time someone mentioned the 'crooked roof effect' I feel I might as well.
#1. Do we sit around and laugh at people who can't contact Loyde? Of course we don't. We feel bad for those people and on more than one occasion we have tried to help people find him, including a trip out to his place after a meeting where 4-5 of us escorted a 'customer' out to Loyde's place to see if we could catch him there since he would not answer anyone's phone call. Even if Loyde has not taken any of our money he has still let us down as a club, and none of us find that the least bit amusing.
#2. I have seen Will Martins chop, Leroy's chop, the Stinger, and the Taz Devil chop... They have all been uneven across the rear section of the roof, and the notchbacks both have flaws up the A-pillars as well. If you stand behind the rear of these cars and look directly across the horizontal plane of the roof it will have a wave, or at best lean to one side. It is not really obvious, I am a perfectionist and exceedingly detail oriented, I just happened to be nit-picking Will Martin's car at a NTFC meeting years ago (because overall it is gorgeous and I wanted to appreciate the finer points) when I noticed, and since then have inspected the other chops just out of curiousity. Will Martin's car also has alot of uneveness up the A pillars, this was hard to see without paint but was very noticeable by running your hand over it. The roof on Leroy's car has waves across the roof section of the rear clip, enough that I noticed them in the dimly lit parking lot. I am afraid these will be even more noticeable once it's painted, because light will not create an even reflection over it's surface. The Stinger is an amazing car, to this day it is my dream Fiero and even with it's faults I do not hesitate to say that. However, it has the same issues as the previous cars (as well as the triangular pieces behind the mirror being tucked behind the pillar and bulging to create unsightly gaps). I did not inspect the Taz. car as closely as I have these others, but from the Texas site at the 25th to where he was parked I was able to see the same issue with the roof section.
#3. I have seen Mike's chop in person and I was very impressed. His car had no waves, no off angles, no unevenness what so ever. It was obvious he had put alot of time into making sure everything was exact. However, the angle of the windows was not as attractive as the angle of the windows on Archie's chops. Does having glass outweigh difference in position? That is a tough call and a personal choice. I don't think anyone here really cares about the amount of work or cost of paying someone it would take to make Mike's windows work, or else they probably wouldn't have chops in the first place. So, seeing as how it comes down to function vs. style in the end and each person will eventually decided which is most important to them, how much longer does this discussion need to go on?
Being that you have critiqued so many of Archies chops, I'm sure you have pic's to show these imperfections, right?
I'm still looking for the post that Archie even mentioned NTFC unless your saying that all Texans that drive a Fiero belong to NTFC.
[This message has been edited by troyboy (edited 08-24-2008).]
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07:26 PM
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
The pictures are on the first page and you guys are still arguing. They can be made to fit just like I made them fit but they will require a lot of adjustment. As far as the crooked roofs go, I tend to believe it has more to do with the hard top vs sunroof, they aren't perfect from the factory and don't even match the rear clip on a stock hard top fiero. There is a huge bubble in the middle and curves down to the rear where it meets the rear hoop and levels out. Believe me I've fought the battle and have looked at a lot a cars. Now stop acting like babys, if you want pictures to show what needs to be cut to make them fit let me know.
.JPG)
