Most people believe that the Fiero was designed and developed as a Fiero from the start. I noticed that even the Wikipedia article asserts that "GM saw a market for a fuel-efficient sporty commuter car and design work on the Fiero commenced" in 1979. This has been accepted as common knowledge, but it isn't true. GM's design staff had been working on mid-engine prototypes at least a decade earlier. It wasn't until 1979 that they found a market for it and figured out a way to wrangle it through GM's convoluted internal processes to get it to production.

After seeing prototype sketches in 2000 of Corvettes from the 1960's that bore a startling resemblance to the fastback GT, I've been of the opinion that the Fiero is a direct descendant of the mid-engine Corvette prototypes of the '60s and '70s. I'll see if I can scan this image later today to post it. Until now this was my belief, but there was nowhere on record to confirm there was any truth to it. Even during the opportunities I had to speak to Dave McLellan, the second chief engineer of the Corvette, it never occurred to me to ask him about it.

However, Dave has finally gone on record in this month's Winding Road Magazine undeniably stating that the Fiero is directly descended from the mid-engine Corvette prototypes that never happened. See his comments about the C4 development on page 68.

Winding Road Magazine on Corvette C7

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- Electron Blue '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 1): Before After 430hp ZZ430 V8/Ram-Port FI--Wanna Race? Follow it here on the Forum!
Pics, Vids, Specs & more at the ZZ430 Fiero webpage
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- LS1 6-speed C5 Corvette Roadster
- LT4 6-speed C4 Corvette Roadster

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 07-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by crazyd: However, Dave has finally gone on record in this month's Winding Road Magazine undeniably stating that the Fiero is directly descended from the mid-engine Corvette prototypes that never happened. See his comments about the C4 development on page 58. Winding Road Magazine on Corvette C7

I can't find it...Are you sure it's page 58?

Er, page 68

Thanks I just found it...

hmmm....

the rear view is on page 64

I hate to burst some bubbles, but the yellow "c7" is a photoshop combination of the Cadillac Cien and a C6.

highly doubt it. Corvettes are leaders in the GM line - not followers. chevette front, citation front in the rear, cavalier dash, generic GM drivetrain & interior.
the ONLY bit I could accept is the space frame. everything else is spare parts bin & hack work.

It is very plausible. Few ideas at GM get wasted, look at the gauge cluster on the 89 ( or is it 90? ) Fiero prototype, then check it against the gauge cluster in a 93 - 2002 Firebird. Look at some of the Harley Earl concept cars of the forties and early fifties, then check the later model Buicks, especially Skylarks.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: highly doubt it. Corvettes are leaders in the GM line - not followers. chevette front, citation front in the rear, cavalier dash, generic GM drivetrain & interior. the ONLY bit I could accept is the space frame. everything else is spare parts bin & hack work.

The fiero was never intended to have chevette suspension. They had the 88 suspension design back before the fiero was put in production but the bean counters decided to use pre existing suspension setups to reduce costs.

Design has a lot of ideas that get tossed around from project to project that don't get wasted. So maybe they used some of the basic designs on styling. Why does this prove anything? Only that those guys probably got excited to see that a Division was actually going to produce a mid engine car and decided to do some things to it that they had never been able to do on a regular production car. They had no choice most likely in the decision to use X car or T car components etc.

Stemple was an advocate of a 2 seater even when he was at Pontiac. Remember these guys move around within the corporation and ideas come with them.

If the Fiero was never intended to have the afore mentioned suspensions then that is a new one on me. I never heard that when I worked for the division from Ed Benson, John Middlebrook, Bill Hoglund or anyone else that was in upper management.

[This message has been edited by Mike Murphy (edited 07-10-2007).]

Folks I have been preaching this for the last few years. The Fiero concept and Idea of a V6 sports cvar was rooted in GM design and was intended to be a Vette proposal. This was not some vision Hulki came up with in his sleep.

This was pointed out in Dave Mc Clellands book INSIDE THE CORVETTE a few years back. GM design was able to save the concvept till Pontiac picked up on the idea. To credit Hulki he is the one who was managing the program and was willing to make it work.

None of this is new news the facts have been in print and told before.

Also if you look at the concept drawings of the original Corvette mid engine it has many Fiero traits. these photos were done in the late 60's and early 70's.



454 transverse V8, Hmm look familiar



more 454 V8



the original rotory engine concept

As pointed out GM keeps good ideas and styling concpets and applies them where needed or wanted. They are not always used where they were first shown.

The 4th Gen F body is the best example of reused ideas. The 4th Gen was really a 1990 Fiero styling applied to the F body in 1993. John Shinella the head of styling on the Fiero pointed that he like the 1990 too much to let the styling go to waste. To this day he still has his 1988 GT from what I was told.



Here is the Camaro vs the 1990

I know many take Hulki for every word and that is fine but there are many other creditable people we need to listen to and learn from. John Schinella is the one of the most informed Fiero people you will ever find. He was on thre program fromt he start to the end and had a whole lot of imput into the car that he rarely get credit for.

Anyway there have been many ideas tried and never told. One concpet had a Citation running two 2.8 V6 engines to see if a duel engine Corvette was practical. It was tried because Chevy feared the V8 would be gone by the early 80's. They were wrong and the twin engine idea was shelved. But the rear engine set up looked like a Fiero set up in the car and was done around the same time the Fiero was being worked on.



twin engine Citation that was a drivretrain mule for the Corvette.



under side AWD and twin engine



front engine



rear engine

Anyway read the book INSIDE THE CORVETTE as it is a great read. It shows you how even the Vette is lucky to still be around and the funding problems they have faced over the years. Also Dave details the Mid Engine program and how it was set aside. It also detail the Fiero and how it came form these ideas from GM design.

On the other front there will not be a mid Vette unless they do a Caddy too. Right now I just don't see it happening and once the new Corvette SS arrives I think it will kill any idea of changing it form front engine.

The 2900 pound Vette with 650-700 HP, 50/50 weight balance able to pull over one G and be easily controled will negate the need to move the engine as little will be gained and more comfort and space will be lost.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 07-10-2007).]

Awesome topic and posting, that is some really cool info.

ya a lot of stuff has come out in this i hadnt know yet. That twin engine citation is something ive never seen before. The car must have had less room than a fiero, loud, and had a lot of exhaust fumes. Also the transmission would have had to have to sticks like some big rigs if it were a maunal to get the correct linkage right.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: On the other front there will not be a mid Vette unless they do a Caddy too. Right now I just don't see it happening and once the new Corvette SS arrives I think it will kill any idea of changing it form front engine. The 2900 pound Vette with 650-700 HP, 50/50 weight balance able to pull over one G and be easily controled will negate the need to move the engine as little will be gained and more comfort and space will be lost.

Great post hyperv6! I have never read that book, but it sounds like something I may want to pick up.

I just wanted to add a comment on the Vette. As we have proved here, ideas do not die and go away. It is entirely possible GM would be considering a mid engine Corvette again. There are advantages, from handling advantages, getting the power to the ground, and just seeming to be more exotic than it is now. Not saying they will do it, but I bet there are some people in the halls of GM that are considering it.

fwiw...
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/066016.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/064836.html

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: Great post hyperv6! I have never read that book, but it sounds like something I may want to pick up. I just wanted to add a comment on the Vette. As we have proved here, ideas do not die and go away. It is entirely possible GM would be considering a mid engine Corvette again. There are advantages, from handling advantages, getting the power to the ground, and just seeming to be more exotic than it is now. Not saying they will do it, but I bet there are some people in the halls of GM that are considering it.

I would not get my hopes up as this topic comes up at every new C platform change time since the 60's.

The problems are many.

Most Vette owners want and like the front engine as it is a badge of honor and what they think make a Vette a Vette. The Chevy marketing people find this out time after time.

Read the story in winding road and there are many truths by true expert car people on Mid Engine and what is good and bad about it. Once you read it you will understand Mid Engine while cool but also has many drawbacks.

The advantages you list are not that big or even an issue anymore with engine managment etc. They have had traction problems with the ne Vette SS but with around 700 HP and making it a daily driver is a challange no matter where the engine.

The big problem in high HP mid engine cars the handeling is less forgiving. Even in the low power Fiero it can get away from you. I think if you note of late the many Enzo's and other exotic cars crashing are a sign of lesser skilled drivers in cars that need more skill to drive and are less forgiving. The new Z06 is as powerful as many of them but is controled and with the front engine with 50/50 balance it is a more contol able car for the less skilled driver that is in the majority.

The new Corvette SS is working out new systems that will control the car and make a hero out of about anyone. The traction is being solved even at 700 HP and it will have new systems we have yet to see in any other car. You will be amazed in what is coming. Expect 650 HP the first year and 700+ HP to come.

The only way we will see a mid enigne Vette is if Caddy get the mid engine car they have thought about. Both it and the Vette would be very expensive and very limited like the Ford GT. Right now neither company needs to spend money on a car like this when they have other cars the turn profits in much higher volumes that need addressed.

Mid engine for the most part is better limited to skilled drivers in cars suited more for track time than daily drivers. Once you add the HP it becomes more a crash waiting to happen in the average drivers hands and that is who is buy most of these cars.

They are like us most of us who need a pick up truck more then a Ferrari but it is fun to dream.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 07-10-2007).]

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: Right now neither company needs to spend money on a car like this when they have other cars the turn profits in much higher volumes that need addressed.

I agree...the Vette is enough of a Halo car as it is. And if that's not enough, then there's XLR.

GM needs to worry about staying out of bankruptcy, and not building a mid-engine supercar...

yet if they did build one for under $20K I would be interested to buy one.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I agree...the Vette is enough of a Halo car as it is. And if that's not enough, then there's XLR. GM needs to worry about staying out of bankruptcy, and not building a mid-engine supercar... yet if they did build one for under $20K I would be interested to buy one.

That would be nice but the new Alpha platform will only spon RWD front engine cars. The 2 seater sports car market is not thriving much. The traditional open front engine roadster is what sells in good consistant numbers. That is what he nest Kappa will be base on.

Folks look at the limited lives of not only the Fiero but the MR2, NSX, RX7, 300 Z etc. All great cars but all gone due to slow sluggish sales. Only the Vette is around mostly do to it being a good car, affordable and it being a Icon. Like Harley the Vette sells because it is a Vette and a Original icon.

I would not hold my breath for a Mid Engine GM car at over $100K and I feel safe to say we will not see one under $50 K again. This market is best left to specialized low volume companies. Unless GM buys Proton the parent company of Lotus then we might see something under the Lotus name in a GM dealer.

If it was not for the many versions of the Kappa and its world wide sales it would and could still be gone in 5 years. As of now it looks like the 2nd gen is in the works with a RHD version for England, Austrailia and mabey Japan. Limiting sales in each country but selling it world wide is what make the Miata live. GM is going to do the same thing. Even Korea will get one for Daewoo.

You make very good arguments, and I am not about to get into a full out debate on it. I am also not going to predict that they will build a mid engine Corvette. However, I wouldn't be surprised if one appears either. As we have said in this thread, ideas at GM do not die....

[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 07-11-2007).]

But they do get shelved for other reasons but as long as there's one guy with a bit of fire there's still hope:

Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman, said that the Cadillac Sixteen and Buick Velite concept cars that were rumored for production will not make it into showrooms after all. Lutz cites GM's increased concern over corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards as the reason priority was shifted away from the high-power concept cars.

The Sixteen, named such because of its 16 cylinder engine, did showcase GM's Displacement on Demand cylinder deactivation technology, but it's unlikely that the car would have sipped fuel at anything other than a rapid rate. The Velite was a low-slung four-passenger convertible powered by a twin-turbocharged version of GM's 3.6 liter V6 engine. The Velite was based on GM's Kappa architecture, which underpins the forthcoming Pontiac G8. Both cars had been rumored for eventual production.
Lutz did say that GM is still considering a Cadillac supersedan.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: But they do get shelved for other reasons but as long as there's one guy with a bit of fire there's still hope: .

The Buick Wildcat from 1985, (not the new zeta based one) is one mid-engine concept I would have liked to see developed. But I think it is about as dead as dead gets, (although according to wikipedia it still exists in drivable form)

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-11-2007).]

Didn't Pontiac and Chevy sit down at the table and have serious talks about trading the Fiero for the Vette in the 80's?

Well there is always hope that the Audi R8 will sell like hotcakes (please do, I can't wait to be able to afford a used one in a few model years ), and GM will copy the idea just to stay afloat. They did copy the Miata (which is a copy of MG roatsters to be fair. ) with the Solstice and the prettier Sky. I think that's the only way GM can hold of being overrun by Toyota for a couple more years. - Minimize development costs and sell high volume cars.

That's for those old links. I've learned a lot from them. It's so much harder to get information about old design/engineering/corporate strategies at GM, than it is finding design/engineering/corporate politics history about the DeLorean DMC-12.

-M

ttt

"Fuel Efficient" is a funny term given that Corvette's easily get better mileage.

IMO the Fiero is GM's version of Fiat/Bertones version of an affordable Ferrari as in a x19...

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 04-18-2008).]

Yes, and the 90's sunfire used a leftover design for the new Corvette that wasn't chosen...doesn't make it a Corvette.

Many things make a Corvette, and while the Fiero shares some common traits and may have used a platform set up in the 60's for the Corvette, it is NOTHING like what the Corvette would have been if it had used the same design ideas. If the Corvette had continued the mid-engine design, it would have received the V8, better suspension and braking from the start, larger wheels, etc, etc, etc.

The truth is that the Corvette project would have had money to play with, but the Fiero project was budget cut at every opportunity.

Josh

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-16-2009).]

i think this is where GM got there idea for a mid-engine corvette from, in the first place.

yes that is the legendary Lamborghini Miura. the first super car. she is a real beaut!!

Lets not get opinion in the way of facts.

The Corvette has been a car of tradition due to the Chevy division not wanting to mess with the formula too much or make it cost as much or more than other sports cars. They have always had the Vette seen as a bargin performance car even with the new ZR-1.

While tradition has been a big part of the car it does not mean Zora had other ideas that would have rendered the present base Vette closer to the ZR-1. Zora wanted things on this car that GM jjust would not approve and one thing was Mid Engine.

The Mid Engine Idea came from the Cerv I Test vewhicle from 1959. He followed it up with the Cerv II. Both were test vehicles that looked like race cars well before race cars looked this way. Zora saw the merit of the engine in a mid location and tried many times and ways to talk GM into letting him go with his idea. He fought this battle till he left.

He also has a aluminum SBC Vette that had rear engine. The engine was reverse rotation due to be behind the back axle. This car is still around but now has a heavier engine and now does wheelies. This car was never more than a Mule and was built in 1962.

Now the Vette has borrowed ideas from others and also GM engineering has provided much of what they did have.

Bill Mitchell also wanted Mid Engine ans the show cars he designed are well documented. But cost and lack of profit get in the way along with the fact not all Vette owners want it. The front engine is a badge of honnor. The Vette stuck with the front engine when many left it and now have come back to it.

In the 80's GM nearly went V6, Two V6, Small 8, Mid Engine, to killing the Vette. Things were very close to making a car much unlike what we have had. GM did finally understand the Vette is much like a Harley where evoloution is more accepted vs revolution.

This will also be true with the C7. Much will change in size and weight but it will still have a front engine and small V8. In the long term a new smaller Vette will be more intune to be a real sports car vs the larger GT it has become.

The Mid engine Car we now have was simply presented to Chevy and they turned it down. GM engineering kept the idea and when Hulki needed to find a way to lower the cowl of the Fiero the Mid Engine idea was presented again and this time Pontiac bit on the idea.

It is simple, if there was no mid engine Vette proposal by GM engineering there most likely would be no mid engine Fiero today. The statment and time line in the Dave Mclelland book lays this out. A good understanding of the Vette history in the 70's helps show how it made the Fiero possible.

It all will end with the Vette remaining a front engine car for the C7 and the Fiero a hint of what the Vette could have been.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: This makes no sense. The main proposal point for the Fiero was that it could be made using existing front engine drivetrains from the X-platform to significantly reduce the cost of drivetrain development and use existing off the shelf production parts such as the engine and tranny with trivial modifications. This concept had nothing to do with Corvettes at all, just as the Chevy Citation had nothing to do with the Corvette. The fact that moving the front wheel drive from the Citation to the rear landed the motor where it is in the Fiero has nothing to do with Corvette history, period. The engine is where it is because in the Citation they put the motor in front of the axle to maximize passenger volume behind the engine while keeping the wheelbase short. It's sheer logic. JazzMan

This is where your Corvette history comes in to play. Dave in his book points out the GM engineering concept was based on the new FWD products they were working on since the mid 70's. The X body concept was started 5-6 years before it appeared late 1979 as a 1980 model. GM just did not start FWD in 1980 that is just when it hit the market, In the 70's they were looking at what all could be done with the car and how many different models could come from it.

Once a proposal is doen they look at what could be used and what needs to be developed.

Your not disagreeing with what I think but what the head Corvette engineer has documented in a book and several magazine stories.

I you look at the photo's above anbd the drawings in one of my past post it shows the a GM engineering drawing of their concept. While it is not an exact Fiero it gives the general idea of what can and could be done. From this point they would look at what parts available could be used and move to the next step if approved.

This is much like the XP833 Banshee Pontiac did. They proposed a concept and then looked to a GM a Body to provide the parts for the two prototyopes. Now if it had gone to production it could have changed a lot. The present Camaro concept was done on a CTS Cadillac platform and the movie Camaro for Transformers was a GTO but the real car is a Zeta platform made to adapt to many different cars.

If you note above also the twin engine GM did around 1980-81 that had a 2.8 V6 in the front and a 2.8 V6 in the rear that looks much like the Fiero set up. GM looked at doing a twin engine car to replace the loss of the V8 that they tought GM might kill. The V8 lived and the twin V6 never went farther than a very quick Citation V12. The rear of the Citation is too close to the Fiero to have just been a chance thing. GM engineering had this concept per Dave Mclelland and I would say it is safe to say they shared it between division programs.

many things on the Vette are not just Vette only and are shared with many GM cars over the years. They even used a Vega steering wheel in 1976.

Fact is GM engineering supplys all GM cars with their work and the divisions just taylor it to their needs. Pontiac did not engineer 100% of the Fiero. The 1963 Buick Riviarea was a Cadillac when proposed and became a Buick. Ideas are tossed and moved to where they may work. Not all end up where they started.

As you state "The main proposal point for the Fiero was that it could be made using existing front engine drivetrains from the X-platform to significantly reduce the cost of drivetrain development" This is true but this is only after Pontiac needed to get the business case approved. The Engineering concept come before this to sell the idea to Pontiac then once you figure out everything you sell the idea to GM in a business case.

Today you can see this happening with the new Alpha program. THis car is propose to be a small Cadillac sedan, new Solstice/Sky, Small Pontiac/Holden and possibly a new Corvette and other cars. The concept are in the works with GM engineering staff. next the divisions make proposals on how they can build them and make money. this is where things get adapted.

GM is a whole company not just a bunch of divisions. Even in the 70's. THat ius also why so many cars started to look alike as the divisions were getting less and less control.