quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I agree that it can be an unbalanced car. A lot of fast cars on the 1/4 mile track can't even be driven on the street. However, the McLaren F1 does a 0-60 in 3 seconds, the 1/4 in 11... and I think we can all agree it is made for performance handling, not the 1/4 mile strip.

Again, an exception, not a rule, that is powered by a nearly 670 hp V12. And being a BALANCED car it can only run 11's with that same 670 hp. A 1/4 mile specialized car would be in the 9's at the same 2800 pound weight. Any other supercars you'd like to compare a modified Fiero to?

MY point is that boasts of 1/4 mile times ALONE mean nothing to me. Well, that's not true either. I do respect the people that LIKE to just drag race when they do it well, because I enjoy any motorsports when they're done well. If I wanted a drag car, I'd find an old Mustang or Camaro, slap a big block in it, and go have some fine fun. That's not what I want but if it's someone else's cup of tea, good for them. They're (generally) going to get the butt handed to them on an autocross course, road course, open road race, or even just on some twisty curves.

John Stricker

Can't someone have a thread about what they've achieved with their car without it becoming a debate on the "right" way to build a car?
"A 3800SC would have been cheaper and faster."
"A 4.9 with nitrous would be cheaper still"
"OMGWTFBBQ111, it's faster than a stock V8!"

V8, V6, turbo, Nitrous - who cares (well, obviously a few people, but...) How about we congratulate Matt on his accomplishments and let this thread be about how he did it?

quote Originally posted by Leafy: Video's work like a charm... she really gets up and goes haha! Matt, could you go into more detail about the tuning, as per how the E6K is setup for you as well as other necessaries such as Injectors, fuel pump, AFPR etc. Thanks man!

The E6K has been really good to me. It isn't cheap at $1200, but it allowed me to use all stock GM sensors, including the coils. Really just basic knowledge of speed density fuel injection is all that is needed to tune one. That and a wideband O2 sensor. If anyone tells you they can tune without one, stay away. Very far away. These tools are cheap these days and if you don't want to blow up your newly built project, you will buy one. A lot of people want to talk about knock sensors, but by the time you are detecting knock, many times it is too late. The majority of knock problems are due to the wrong air/fuel ratio. Ignition timing is actually pretty basic for most engines. You can find most all of the information you need to know about the engine you are using on the internet. I started with the stock ignition map for the 3.4l DOHC. I just retarded spark from there during boost. When I first started tuning my car, I did all the vacuum to atmospheric tuning first (basically NA performance). I then started inching up boost 2 psi at a time. Every day driving to work, I would tune driveability. I did this for about a year. It takes that long to get to know your car. Plus it's fun seeing improvements during everyday use. Honestly, I can't tell the difference in my car from a 13.0 1/4 to a 12.0 1/4. Once the launch is over, it is all about the same. I do want to get that 11s slip for a personal victory, just like I wanted 400 WHP, but that is it. The part I like to brag about is the daily usefullness of the car. I go on HotRod Power Tour every year as it sits. I don't change a thing. I want 25 MPG, 11s 1/4 and 400 WHP all on pump gas and street tires. Anywhere, anytime.

[This message has been edited by Matt Hawkins (edited 08-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: The E6K has been really good to me. It isn't cheap at $1200, but it allowed me to use all stock GM sensors, including the coils. Really just basic knowledge of speed density fuel injection is all that is needed to tune one. That and a wideband O2 sensor. If anyone tells you they can tune without one, stay away. Very far away. These tools are cheap these days and if you don't want to blow up your newly built project, you will buy one. A lot of people want to talk about knock sensors, but by the time you are detecting knock, many times it is too late. The majority of knock problems are due to the wrong air/fuel ratio.

I'm a little surprised you didn't go with an EGT sensor too? If you want a definitive answer on "how safe am I at this AFR?", that's the way to get it. 11.5:1 can be safe or not safe for two different engines... One of the tricks to finding detonation is a sudden drop in EGT. This detonation can be caused by too much timing or being too lean..... even something complex like intake port design if you ported the intakes.

Where's the picture of the engine? Did I miss it?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I'm a little surprised you didn't go with an EGT sensor too? If you want a definitive answer on "how safe am I at this AFR?", that's the way to get it. 11.5:1 can be safe or not safe for two different engines... One of the tricks to finding detonation is a sudden drop in EGT. This detonation can be caused by too much timing or being too lean..... even something complex like intake port design if you ported the intakes.

Agreed, but EGT is only really important with very long duration power pulls. Like road racing. Usually, a single cylinder will start to go lean or knock and you can't see that with EGT. Not in any timely manner. The response time is far to slow. A knock sensor is the only thing fast enough to be used as instant feedback. In cylinder pressure would be by far the best, but that isn't feasible. Every engine is different. You are always setting up your timing and fueling for the worst cylinder. That is why you leave in some safety margin with tuning. Unless you have an EGT and wideband in each exhaust runner, you don't have enough info. I am confindent my setup is safe and have many miles on the car to prove it.

Those are very impressive numbers for the amount of hardware you've changed, you should definitely be proud considering the number of miles you've put on this thing, it's no dyno queen. I remember seeing it at Milan (?) for the 20th and being quite impressed with how quick the car was given the little amount of hardware thrown at it. Goes to show you, fine tuning what you've got can make a huge difference, and not knowing how to tune stuff can cause all sorts of issues. Good work!

So, the question is, now that you've been down that road, dialed it in, and proven the setup out...would you do a 3.4 DOHC again? Ever wonder what it would have been like with a different engine? I just ask because I sold a 3.4 DOHC and am going to do a Northstar, with the idea that in the (very) long run I'll be more satisfied, but hindsight is always better than foresight.

Bryce

This is the classic question. Would I do it again? For sure. I love the 3.4l DOHC in the car. It sounds awesome, looks different and has it's own character. If I were to do it again, what would I do and why? Bang for the buck, the 3.8l SC engine with the blower removed and a turbo added wins hands down. The engine is built pretty stout as is. I had about $700 in the 3.4l, just to put it back together with new pistons, bearings and gaskets. I don't see how you could beat this engine/turbo setup if the money is an issue. Coolness factor would lead me to a Northstar turbo arrangement. The cost would be similar to the 3.4l DOHC, but you do get the V8 factor. Plus turbocharged. If I did any of these though, I would still go with a stand alone engine management system. I think that is a big factor in getting it running properly when turbocharged.

I have about $6000 in the engine compartment of my car. But for the performance, that isn't bad.

So to answer your question, yes and no. I would do it again!

[This message has been edited by Matt Hawkins (edited 08-14-2007).]

what transaxle are you using in your car?

For those curious about the car... this will help explain a lot.

http://www.fierosearch.com/...kins&Action=DoSearch

Oh yes. One day my 3.4 DOHC will rise from the garage, and dominate too.

What is strange about this engine... is that normal rule of thumb is that an engine will put out twice the horsepower then N/A if there is 14.7 PSI of boost, minus the horsepower used to create the boost, usually 20-30 horsepower or so. You are close to double the N/A power with less then 14 psi of boost. That is very unusual.

I still say, this engine is an exceptional performer under boosted conditions. The ports were always WAY to big to only put out 205-215 horsepower from a 3.4L. Looking at the engines features with an open mind, you could draw two pictures. The engine could be heavily cammed with headers to spin it high enough to make the large intake and massive exhaust ports more effective, or you could boost it so that the air velocities would increase enough to make the port size justifiable. This is why I think this engine responds so well to cam work and especially boost. But thats just my opinion

quote Originally posted by fatmerk: what transaxle are you using in your car?

Stock Fiero Getrag 282.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: For those curious about the car... this will help explain a lot. http://www.fierosearch.com/...kins&Action=DoSearch Oh yes. One day my 3.4 DOHC will rise from the garage, and dominate too. What is strange about this engine... is that normal rule of thumb is that an engine will put out twice the horsepower then N/A if there is 14.7 PSI of boost, minus the horsepower used to create the boost, usually 20-30 horsepower or so. You are close to double the N/A power with less then 14 psi of boost. That is very unusual. I still say, this engine is an exceptional performer under boosted conditions. The ports were always WAY to big to only put out 205-215 horsepower from a 3.4L. Looking at the engines features with an open mind, you could draw two pictures. The engine could be heavily cammed with headers to spin it high enough to make the large intake and massive exhaust ports more effective, or you could boost it so that the air velocities would increase enough to make the port size justifiable. This is why I think this engine responds so well to cam work and especially boost. But thats just my opinion

His power output isn't unusual at all, his efficiency is increased and he is making more power at a higher rpm relative to stock so 14.7 psi will theoretically double your horsepower but if you are able to maintain or increase your efficiency at a higher rpm above stock your baseline power increases as in this case where he mentioned adjusting his camshafts which apparently have favored more high rpm power requiring less boost to double stock power ratings.

Your turbo is spooling way too early

Awaiting an 11 sec slip.

Matt, I have always been a big fan of your setup and at some point in time hope to achieve something simular, but untill then i'll have to drool over your car. I can't even imagine how stupid fast that thing is! Get that 11s time slip! BTW: Do you think that ported heads and cams would be of much benefit to you or no? I know the whole overlap thing is bad for spool time, but you could just go for more duration/lift and dial out the overlap.

-Jeff

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--180* t-stat, cams, 96-97 intake swap, FFP pulley, A/C Idler, flowmaster exhaust, EGR delete, K&N filter, chip--
--Check out the Fiero Kingdom!--
Beater: Flat black 90 CRX with a JDM D15 VTEC <--ballin'!

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: Matt, I have always been a big fan of your setup and at some point in time hope to achieve something simular, but untill then i'll have to drool over your car. I can't even imagine how stupid fast that thing is! Get that 11s time slip! BTW: Do you think that ported heads and cams would be of much benefit to you or no? I know the whole overlap thing is bad for spool time, but you could just go for more duration/lift and dial out the overlap. -Jeff

It is quite fast. It is nice to not drive it for a few days and then get back into. My Supra is about 300 at the wheels and it feels slow. As far as ported heads or cams. I think the cams would be far more beneficial. Overlap is bad, but we can adjust cam timing to whatever we want. More lift would be good. I just can't justify the expense. I can't remember who had ported the heads and had them checked on a flow bench, but the gains at ~0.400" of lift weren't significant. I think your money would be better spent with the cams.

I feel stupid reading threads like this. I am not a dummy by any means when it comes to mechanics, but the experience is not there ...yet. I have to say though, it is really impressive what some of you have accomplished. I've watched that autocrossing video about 6 times now I love it! ...point being, I learn a lot from these threads (as much as you can without being able to apply it). Just wanted to say thanks for sharing. Nicely done.

[This message has been edited by evelyn dick (edited 08-16-2007).]

You shouldn't feel stupid. Learning is vital with anything. I have been working on things like this for over half my life. I have had plenty of bumps and misconceptions along the way. I am glad you appreciate my effort. I am proud of it too. Never be afraid to ask questions.

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: Stock Fiero Getrag 282.

NO WAY!! those crappy transmissions can't hold nothing (I'm manual too...) not knockin it lol. I just want to sound like a lot of the poeple out there!

congrats, as noted before I like seeing any swap with high HP whether its a 4, 6 or 8.

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3800 SC/IC Formula whines more than your girl...

[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 08-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: It is quite fast. It is nice to not drive it for a few days and then get back into. My Supra is about 300 at the wheels and it feels slow. As far as ported heads or cams. I think the cams would be far more beneficial. Overlap is bad, but we can adjust cam timing to whatever we want. More lift would be good. I just can't justify the expense. I can't remember who had ported the heads and had them checked on a flow bench, but the gains at ~0.400" of lift weren't significant. I think your money would be better spent with the cams.

I wasn't asking that question for myself, I was asking about your setup. I already have reground cams on my car. They were a nice little extra boost. Im going to be going with ported heads, but they are heads that I am porting myself, so I don't expect much more than 10-15 horsepower.

I do have one question that I have never really heard addressed. ...why swap from a 2.8 to a larger 6 cyl.? Maybe I should put it like this... could you achieve similar results with a 2.8? Or is it an issue of the performance parts just not being available for the 2.8?

There are limitations with the stock 2.8 for flow. The heads just can't flow as much as the stock 3.4l DOHC heads. That and the fact that the heads are iron versus the Al in the DOHC. Iron heads are more likely to have detonation due to hot spots forming. To get anywhere near the power level I have would require extensive (i.e. expensive) work with the stock engine.

AWESOME numbers Matt. It's good to hear you're still working on squeezing out the last bits of HP from this setup.
I've been curious about your port work.. you mention you have ported/polished combustion chambers. Did you just work on the chambers to reduce compression ratio? Or do you also have port work done to the intake and exhaust ports in the heads to improve flow?

Just the combustion chambers. I removed some material, unshrouded the valves and cleaned up the sharp edges. I wish I had pictures, but they are hard to get now!!

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: Just the combustion chambers. I removed some material, unshrouded the valves and cleaned up the sharp edges. I wish I had pictures, but they are hard to get now!!

It would be cool if you had a video of your car in action or at least a sound file

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 08-17-2007).]

See first page.

i am bringing this out of from the archieves... matt, have looking at the drag run (with the old combination) i was curious to know what rev's are you dropping the pedal at? Lately, i have been so nervous about "beating" up my 5-speed (hardly any true fiero-getrags around for a backup).

Also, the "good bolts in the bottom end" you mentioned. did you mean ARP rod and main bolts?

what head gaskets did you use after you took care of the head gasket leak? Did you o-ring the heads? Did you use ARP head studs/bolts when rebuilding it?

He pretty much launches off near idle, then revs out first gear at half or more pedal. After shifting he usually gets into it fairly quickly and starts.

He ran a 11.9 when he raced my 12.8 second fiero, and thats about what he did. We were neck and neck at the 60ft, I was about a car behind at the 1/8 then he rockets off from there and traps something stupid fast.

The car sounds great on the video.

Great job on your car, you should be happy

Merry Christmas

Things I am wondering about what compresion ratio is the engine what is the lobe seperation on the cam I am trying to get a DOHC engine together but not sure if i want to turbo or go with a eaton 112 blower thinking of no more than 8 to 1 compression I think the blower will give more low end power but not as much topend like the turbo what are your fellings on this

Stock N/A cams make plenty decent turbo cams.

I would think I would have rembembered if he had aftermaret cam stuff going on, but I think its stock....

yes i think they are stock cams but being there exhaust cam and intake cam are sep cams you can adjust lob seperation along and that changes overlap along with moving lob center just wondering if he advanced or retarded both cams or just one and what his final cmpression ratio was I know his car is Kick a$$ like all though I am looking for info

Sorry. I just saw this thread.

I launch at ~2000 RPM, dumping the clutch as I roll into the throttle. Pretty easy on the drivetrain.

ARP in the rods. Stock mains.

Head gaskets are stock. I don't know what caused the first failure. It was very minor and didn't stop me from driving the car. I thought about o-ringing, but didn't want to tear that far down. There is some discussion of getting MLS gaskets over on the 60degreeV6 forum. I may buy a set for the future. Stock parts are better than people realize. Head studs are stock GM. You must get new ones every rebuild though. They are torque to yield.

Torque + Angle is NOT Torque to Yield.

Actual torque to yield applications are few and far between.
So far I've only seen real torque to yield on Northstar rod and flywheel bolts.

Either way, they suggest you replace them and don't re-use. I followed the advice. The bolts are relatively cheap. The only pain in the ass is they sell them in packs of 5.

Im going to be wrenching on a 97 monte carlo z34 soon and I was reading up on the 3400DOHC and I was wondering if you are using the 96-97 heads or the earlier ones? The 96-97 heads flow better and offer more performance from what I have read but also increase the CR a little due to the smaller combustion chamber and if you are using the earlier heads will say alot more about your level of tuning not that the car as it is doesn't say enough .

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: Either way, they suggest you replace them and don't re-use. I followed the advice. The bolts are relatively cheap. The only pain in the ass is they sell them in packs of 5.

Northstar spark plug o-rings (go in the cam cover) are sold in packs of 5... Accountant logic <sigh>

GM recommends not reusing Northstar head bolts either, but that's because of a thread sealer coating that's applied to the threads at the factory.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You're making double the hp of most V8 swaps here.... ehhehehehehe.....

Not all of them

Very nice numbers! Looks like a great car and I congradulate you on your build.

Is there any way you can post that dyno sheet? I'd like to see how the power band turned out. Just curious, not harshing you at all. If you cant that fine too.

Excellant work Matt!

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If I wanted a drag car, I'd find an old Mustang or Camaro, slap a big block in it, and go have some fine fun. John Stricker

Exactly! I've been saying this for years. I didn't build my Fiero to drag race. If I were into drag racing I wouldn't even start with a Fiero. It's much simpler to make other cars go faster in a straight line.

Edit to add a congratulations to Matt for the impressive numbers. You have achieved an amazing accomplishment with that setup. I wish I knew as much about engines. I won't consider myself a mechanic until I can build up an engine like you did from scratch.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-27-2008).]

I have to dig up the newest plot, but this is from two years ago on Power Tour. It was 387 at the wheels then. The torque curve is nice and flat. The new number look amost the same, just a tough higher. The power came from a little better tuning, especially on the top end. You can see from this plot that things got pretty rich up top.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-1-059855.html

[This message has been edited by Matt Hawkins (edited 01-27-2008).]