quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: Since you have CNC access you going to try to rip off Archie too and copy his aluminum parts as well? Show some respect man. Come up with your own ideas and profit from them.

Yes, show Andrew the same RESPECT he's showing us........

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: Since you have CNC access you going to try to rip off Archie too and copy his aluminum parts as well? Show some respect man. Come up with your own ideas and profit from them.

I've stayed out of this thread, as I never ordered a badge from F-I-E-R-O. But, given what you said above, I'd like to submit a couple of photos....



A photo of an emblem on Kameo Kid's taillight panel. This was from a posting in 2003. RareW66 made this badge for Kameo Kid. The original post can be found here.

Now, a picture of Andrew's badge....



Very similar to Fred's version, save for the border around the Pegasus. So....how is Andrew's badge an original idea, given that Fred's badge, which is almost identical, predates Andrew's by 4 years? And given that they're both a copy of the original GM design Pegasus, neither of them are original, nor are they legal, given the copyrights. I think that it would be in good taste to ask Andrew for "permission to copy" his work....but then, his work is not only a copy of Fred's work, but also an unauthorized copy of the original GM logo. So, realistically, he's not the one who should be asked for permission to make the badges. If it had been a copy of his own design of the Fiero badge, that might be another story. But, IMHO, if someone wants to go ahead and make the badges, and risk having GM come down on them for doing so, then all they're doing is the same thing that Andrew did....making a copy of someone else's work. For what it's worth, I'm not judging anybody here....just pointing out what seems to be obvious.

[This message has been edited by litespd (edited 02-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: You've GOT to be kidding??? You want to make Andrew's badges?? Have you approached him for his permission?? Sorry, but no matter WHAT problems have caused Andrew to default on the delivery of them...to copy his work and reproduce it without permission is way, WAY wrong, IMHO. Are you intending to do replicas, on a commercial basis? Or ANY basis at all? Hold on...you just came to the Forum in January this year?? Are you somebody 'pretending ' to be a newbie, to pinch Andrew's designs, and trying to market them under a 'new' name, so you donīt get hammered under your REAL name????? What IS going on here?? I might be getting delusional ....but I may just NOT...Explanation to clear all this up please? Nick

Seriously Nick, you have got to be kidding on this one. The pegasus is NOT Andrew's original design. Nor is the idea even original. I'm sure that if you go search through the archives, you will find a few other people that offered the exact same thing long before him. In fact, Andrew himself has stated that all his designs were simply variations of other designs he found online. Yes, even the "sideways" pegasus was based on something he found.

litespd, you have GOT to be joking about "legal". I hope.

I see nothing that infringes GM's rights. Logo is different, Font is differnt. Size/proportion is different. color is different.

The way I see it, there are zero points of comonality.

Ergo....you get to go back to opinion vs facts school in pre-law.

This is a capitalist country... Products are homogeneous with low barriers to entry: econ 1101. Very basic stuff. If Andrew can't deliver, well that sucks for him, especially considering the time and effort he put into starting the project. At this point I think someone should step in and fill the gap. It's classy of you to ask Andrew first as not to step on toes, but face it, he dropped the ball quite a while back. Actually he dropped the ball last project, then started another project, which appears to have been a greater blunder still. If someone offered to pick up the pieces, well then I'd be sure to buy from them from now on, even if Andrew returned. It's sad that he's getting away with this... He'd be in court right now if it had been anything in the corporate world.

Like I said in another post, I've had a good experience with him personally and would have recommended him in the past. I can't say the same now.

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: Since you have CNC access you going to try to rip off Archie too and copy his aluminum parts as well? Show some respect man. Come up with your own ideas and profit from them.

I think its funny you're defending Andrew with a line about "ripping off" and "respect". While you're on the subject though, take a look around your house and try to keep count of the things you own that have been either duplicated from a patent pending or stemmed from others idea's... like your "knock off" Pontiac Fiero.

Or... don't care, move deeper into the poor/middle class bracket and vote for John Edwards.

Only GM has the patent, copyright or trademark for the Fiero and it's name. Unless you have purchased the rights to recreate an item, you are not supposed to do it. Ask Rodney, who had to halt his logoed spare tire covers. But, if you do not intend to sell a reproduced item from GM or anyone on the Forum, go right ahead. And, if someone on the Forum does not already have a patent, copyright or trademark, and I doubt anyone does, go right ahead - knock yourself out. If I see something on the Forum I like, I'm going to buy it as long as it's not made in China. Ed

------------------

[This message has been edited by Firefighter (edited 02-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by t697: I saw some pics of the badges, Any one tell me what material they are made of? Any art work of them, actually a drawing in cad or solid works would be perfect. I may be able to make some! I am NOT taking orders just trying to figure out if I can fill a need.

This is the opening post of this particular thread. Read it again..and then tell me this is not an attempt to lift somebody else's interpretation of GM's original badging.If the thread had been more along the lines of':

"Sorry F-I-E-R-O let so many of you down..I am interested in developing something along the same lines, to fill a hole in the Fiero marketplace. Can somebody fill me in with specs on the GM badge..what it is made of, cad files and actual dimensions etc etc.,".... I would have had NO problem with that..it is, after all,an open market. But the request was for actual details about Andrew's actual prototype. That is unethical, IMHO. Do your OWN design..promote it, produce it....and if it has half the appeal that Andrew's work does, I am sure you will be able to fill that hole in the market place, and I would probably be amongst the first to order one.THEN, it would entirely be Andrew's fault for messing up in the first place.
Added to the fact that you APPEARED to be a 'newbie' (how I HATE that nomenclature ), marching in here and starting to proclaim how you could do the job better...Just had tinges of the 'Hurricane' catastrophe..and I was NOT thinking that you were James, from that thread
Nick

sorry about the post being saying this forum is terrible. I should have said can be terrible. I remember when I was on years ago people joked about having flame retardant suits.


Also I have no interest in doing anything commercial. I really thought the nose badges were neat and wanted to make some. I never asked how many people would be interested in buying them. So I have access to machine equipement lots of people do. Does archie get offended when someone makes their own motor mounts? I don't know him personally but I would have to say no. Why is archie so successful? Because of his reputation. How do you get a good reputation? Put up or shut up. So even if I did make a knock off of archies kit I doubt I would be successful commercally, I see them on ebay at a discount already and they don't get sold. So people will only buy those from Archie. (I HAVE NO INTENTION OF MAKING ANY PARTS COMMERCIALLY).

Every one telling ME to be respectful and get Andrews permision here goes. But this is just to placate the misguided.


ANDREW if you can please contact me about your design. I plan on doing the gm fiero logo in aluminum. I may even give some to the people who didn't get theirs originally from you at what ever it costs me to make.

Sorry about the spelling

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Seriously Nick, you have got to be kidding on this one. The pegasus is NOT Andrew's original design. Nor is the idea even original. I'm sure that if you go search through the archives, you will find a few other people that offered the exact same thing long before him. In fact, Andrew himself has stated that all his designs were simply variations of other designs he found online. Yes, even the "sideways" pegasus was based on something he found.

Cliff, I answer YOUR comment here, with another of yours, currently in a thread inT/OT
Cliff's comment in thw other thread:

"Some people say that's unfair, that as a "noob" you should be careful of what you say. Well, I say that's pretty normal for any community. If you go join a basketball club and from the first day you start telling the other players how they should play, chances are you are not going to be liked. Chances are they are going to kick you out of the team before finding out how well you actually play.

Nick

Make this one

side by side

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 02-09-2008).]

Sorry I started this thread.

I will go back to being an observer so people like fetish can tell everyone how it is supposed to be.

BTW FETISH I really don't care what you think of me or most people for that matter. If I did I wouldn't drive a fiero ass most people just don't understand it. I got to where I am by doing things my way and I am pretty damn happy about where I am. I can drive what ever car I want, within reason, but I choose a fiero like many here do.

Of also fetish at least be adult enough to admit that you were wrong about knowing who I am or do you have no faults? I will be in Barcelona this June if you want to do a visual inspection

I'm not sure on the details but if I am not mistaken, you can copy a copyrighted item as long as a certain percentage of the item is different. That make sense? For instance..back years ago my father owned a vinyl graphics shop. He took the Chevy emblem and made the ends slope in the other direction. No one even noticed the change but it made the design legal. What I am getting at here is... Andrews designs might all be legal cause he changed enough of the original designs. Useing just the pegasus may be legal cause I don't believe that Pontiac ever used the Pegasus as a stand alone badge. It was always used with the word Fiero and in a specific design shape.

Anyone with more knowledge with copyright law may be able to shed some more light on the subject.

I have been doing glass etching since 1985 and 1 of the things I did to get around copyright laws was this... I never pre-produced a copyrighted product and put it up for sale. Now, if someone came up to me and said... "Can you put this on a mirror, window, door and so on", I was selling a artistic service not a product.

Jiimy, I am in Canada, so there ARE legal differances from the US.....but in a nutshell, so long as your product is only "simliar and inspired by" the original it is an original and you are free to do as you please.

IE, if I was inclined, I could take the Fiero badge, change every single aspect ratio and line by a few percent and call it my own and be in a legally defensable position since that art would NOT be the same as GM's. Simple reverse engineering with the intent to avoid infringement. Its done all the time. Cliff's new T-shirts are a perfect example.

What GM would do, if they were inclined, is take me to court and turn it into a 'deep pockets" game with legal tactics, and thier pockets are a whole lot deeper than mine so they would win by default. I have my own idea that is exactly what happened with the logod covers.

Sometimes, you can be "legally" in the right and still end up bankrupt and the looser. It can be a WHOLE lot wiser to stay low-key and not make waves.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Cliff, I answer YOUR comment here, with another of yours, currently in a thread inT/OT Cliff's comment in thw other thread: "Some people say that's unfair, that as a "noob" you should be careful of what you say. Well, I say that's pretty normal for any community. If you go join a basketball club and from the first day you start telling the other players how they should play, chances are you are not going to be liked. Chances are they are going to kick you out of the team before finding out how well you actually play. Nick

And that is relevant to someone supposedly stealing a stolen idea how?

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: I'm not sure on the details but if I am not mistaken, you can copy a copyrighted item as long as a certain percentage of the item is different. That make sense? For instance..back years ago my father owned a vinyl graphics shop. He took the Chevy emblem and made the ends slope in the other direction. No one even noticed the change but it made the design legal. What I am getting at here is... Andrews designs might all be legal cause he changed enough of the original designs. Useing just the pegasus may be legal cause I don't believe that Pontiac ever used the Pegasus as a stand alone badge. It was always used with the word Fiero and in a specific design shape. Anyone with more knowledge with copyright law may be able to shed some more light on the subject.I have been doing glass etching since 1985 and 1 of the things I did to get around copyright laws was this... I never pre-produced a copyrighted product and put it up for sale. Now, if someone came up to me and said... "Can you put this on a mirror, window, door and so on", I was selling a artistic service not a product.

The design that you have on your arm that F-I-E-R-O (kind of created) is ilegal. It was all fine and danndy until he stuck the TRADEMARKED GM emblem in the middle of it. You can not slap someones property in the middle of your own drawing and call it yours. It does not work this way. How do I know ?, Beacuse I have asked and asked and asked the Legal Department of GM hearing it right from there mouth. So personally I would take that as fact and not try and go up against there 100 or so Lawyers.

[This message has been edited by cornersonrails (edited 02-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by t697: Sorry I started this thread. I will go back to being an observer so people like fetish can tell everyone how it is supposed to be. BTW FETISH I really don't care what you think of me or most people for that matter. If I did I wouldn't drive a fiero ass most people just don't understand it. I got to where I am by doing things my way and I am pretty damn happy about where I am. I can drive what ever car I want, within reason, but I choose a fiero like many here do. Of also fetish at least be adult enough to admit that you were wrong about knowing who I am or do you have no faults? I will be in Barcelona this June if you want to do a visual inspection

I would never consider posting Pm's normally, but feel I should post the one I sent to you (I did tell you in this thread that I has sent you one), and, as I am the author, feel I havenīt transgressed any of the Forum rules by doing so.I post it in case you didnt see it..or in case you just chose to ignore it

Copy and paste of the PM I sent to t697....
In spite of everything that has happened over the last couple of years to Andrew, and I am NOT trying to exhonorate him at all, I still donīt like to see vultures picking over the bones of a jackal . I tried to help him out the first time he went off the rails. I guess I failed to make any difference. I STILL believe Andrew is more misguided, and more than a little psychotic...and somebody trying to lift his ideas would probably only serve to knock him further off the rails. Something I feel should be avoided if possible. If you were to at LEAST try to contact Andrew and get his permission to fulfil his outstanding orders, and then to continue to provide a supply for a possible market, then all well and good. At least pay him that courtesy, if you can find it within yourself. He is , sadly, a sick guy..in the sense of ill, not wicked.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
Sorry you think I am ripping some one off. I thought I was making an old obsolete part out of aluminum to fill a need"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------

I've been here 5 years, nearly. I have never seen your name posting before in all that time. You have a VERY small post count now, as you did when you were here last time in 2001+ You are therefore, a 'newcomer' to the Forum to all appearances, who seemed to be set on using the idea somebody else from this Forum devised...whether for gain or not. I honestly doubt you know much about Andrew's history, or mine for that matter. I presume, also, that the milling equipment belongs to you Employers? If so,are you allowed to use Company materials, personnel and equipment for your own purposes? Lucky guy Somehow, I donīt believe you would be giving these badges away for free, if you managed to produce them in any quantity. call me Mr.Cynical, if you like...at least I donīt pout my bottom lip and stamp my little foot when somebody has the temerity to challenge my modus operandi.

As to Andrew stealing somebody else's idea...who else has a current project producing these badges? If there IS somebody else, then why was Andrew's project so attractive to so many, above their's? Because it is unequalled, perhaps? And far too cheap for what it is...

Get off your tower, Nick, and stop defending a criminal.

Criminal????Oh so sorry...seem top have missed the trial, and the judgment..and sentencing...hey let's get a rope boys...

Right Time for me to face reality. Andrew, you no longer have my support. I find it exceptionally hard to accept your behaviour this time round. You actually bought a car radio on ebay on the 8th of this month?? Shame on you.
And shame on me, too. I put my faith in somebody, and was wrong. VERY wrong, to continue to stand up for your terrible behaviour. Get somehelp...other than financial help from people who tried to help you IN GOOD FAITH:

I apologise to everybody who has been deprived of their hard-earned money. I was wrong. I am VERY sorry.
Nick

i wish whoever screwed up the page layout would go back and edit their post...

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: Since you have CNC access you going to try to rip off Archie too and copy his aluminum parts as well? Show some respect man. Come up with your own ideas and profit from them.

i dont believe this is a good example. Archie will send you your product if you buy from him.
buying from Andrew is not an option

and to t697
i think i read somewhere you said you might make these to sell, and also sell to those that have been screwed already at your cost.
I think that would be very thoughtful of you.
but dont sell at cost, sell at a "reduced price", otherwise everyone will know how much profit you get.

and i notice you must have had a very old school typing class.
i haven't seen someone double space after a sentence in years.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 02-09-2008).]

And to t697...sincere apologies.I made a horrendous mistake, accusing you of contemplating 'ripping' Andrew's ideas. I can see now that your original post was looking to make replacements for the people who have been let down, by Andrew's 'frailty'.

t697, I am sorry.

Nick

I found a cheap and easy solution to the emblem issue. Although not as gracious as some of those shown - If you buy the Fiero Store Fiero Pewter Ornament for $ 5.95 and use your dremel tool to cut off the top loop and then lightly sand the top, you get what is below. Put in where you like, it can be bent carefully for curved surfaces. I'm lazy , huh? Ed

[This message has been edited by Firefighter (edited 02-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: sincere apologies.I made a horrendous mistake, Nick

You the man

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: and i notice you must have had a very old school typing class. i haven't seen someone double space after a sentence in years.

I double space my sentences... I think PFF edits it out to single space though...
Must be a Texas thang

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: I double space my sentences... I think PFF edits it out to single space though... Must be a Texas thang

i think the forum will edit out double carriage returns, but not double space after a period.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: And to t697...sincere apologies.I made a horrendous mistake, accusing you of contemplating 'ripping' Andrew's ideas. I can see now that your original post was looking to make replacements for the people who have been let down, by Andrew's 'frailty'. t697, I am sorry. Nick

It was nice of you to try and fight his battlr but happy to see you finally found who you are dealing with. I learned it along time ago and found Andrew to have more excuses than anyone I have ever seen. He will even try to use the mental disability problem [ I feel he earned on his own by seeing it works } when all chips are down as he did before to get back in everyones graces and his red bar back to green. He prooved this time he isnt worth trusting and that is sad as I even trusted his word awhile back but started to see right thru it a wee bit back. Rick

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: litespd, you have GOT to be joking about "legal". I hope. I see nothing that infringes GM's rights. Logo is different, Font is differnt. Size/proportion is different. color is different. The way I see it, there are zero points of comonality. Ergo....you get to go back to opinion vs facts school in pre-law.

No, I'm not joking about legal....but I DO find that I may not have had all the info I should have. Andrew was selling two different badges...one, his "updated" design of the original Fiero front fascia emblem, and the other a billet Pegasus badge, which I pictured above. I was under the impression that the Pegasus badge was the one that he wasn't sending out, based upon the original sale thread that so many people have posted in, complaining that he never sent them out. After reading your post, I went and checked his auctions on ebay, and found that it was the "Fiero" emblem that he was selling on ebay, not the Pegasus badge. Turns out, it's both of them that people here on the forum aren't getting. To a point, I agree with you on the "Fiero" emblem....there are probably enough changes on it that it could skirt the copyright issue. However, I stand by my original statement as to his "Pegasus" badge. I will also agree that I've never seen the Pegasus emblem on anything that didn't also have "Fiero" or "Fiero GT" , i.e, the front fascia badge, on any Fiero. However, the logo is still a GM design, and may very well still be owned by GM...they've taken pains to make sure that they still own the rights to the "Fiero" name. If so, then I stand by my original statement, in regard to the "Pegasus" badge, that it may very well not be legal. I hope that I've clarified my original statement. Looks like you and I were looking at two completely different badges made by the same person.

As for the name Fiero... It is a name that means Proud in Italian? There are Mavado Watches named Fiero for sale on ebay all the time. If you change the Font and do not use the original "Fiero" font then I do believe you would be within your legal rights to use the name. I could be wrong?

Picking up on my previous post, 7 replys back, this is what the Fiero Store Pewter Ornament looks like in place or out of place for you exterior purists. Ed

quote Originally posted by litespd: No, I'm not joking about legal....but I DO find that I may not have had all the info I should have. Andrew was selling two different badges...one, his "updated" design of the original Fiero front fascia emblem, and the other a billet Pegasus badge, which I pictured above. I was under the impression that the Pegasus badge was the one that he wasn't sending out, based upon the original sale thread that so many people have posted in, complaining that he never sent them out. After reading your post, I went and checked his auctions on ebay, and found that it was the "Fiero" emblem that he was selling on ebay, not the Pegasus badge. Turns out, it's both of them that people here on the forum aren't getting. To a point, I agree with you on the "Fiero" emblem....there are probably enough changes on it that it could skirt the copyright issue. However, I stand by my original statement as to his "Pegasus" badge. I will also agree that I've never seen the Pegasus emblem on anything that didn't also have "Fiero" or "Fiero GT" , i.e, the front fascia badge, on any Fiero. However, the logo is still a GM design, and may very well still be owned by GM...they've taken pains to make sure that they still own the rights to the "Fiero" name. If so, then I stand by my original statement, in regard to the "Pegasus" badge, that it may very well not be legal. I hope that I've clarified my original statement. Looks like you and I were looking at two completely different badges made by the same person.

Yup, I think you are right--we weren't looking at the same image. Sorry if I came across a little strong.

Mike

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: As for the name Fiero... It is a name that means Proud in Italian? There are Mavado Watches named Fiero for sale on ebay all the time. If you change the Font and do not use the original "Fiero" font then I do believe you would be within your legal rights to use the name. I could be wrong?

I believe what you are talking about are "Movado" watches. If so, it appears they're made in Switzerland. I assume that's why they can do it...first of all because they're not an American company, and secondly, because it's a watch, not an Automobile. It's my understanding that no American company can use the name "Fiero" for anything auto related, and possibly for any other product without the permission of the registered owner of the name. Admittedly, I'm not a lawyer...but we did study copyright and trademark infringement in a business law class I took many, many years ago. It's entirely possible that the laws could have changed by now.

I don't know how all that works. I remember back when we had to shell out some cash & some cars for using the Beretta name on those cars. Like someone is really going to mistake a car for a pistol!

Guess what????

They are really difficult to make. My guy is passing me on to a shop that does decorative items. He was refered to as the artistic CNC shop. So I can see why anyone would have a hard time supplying them.

How about someone make me a pillow

I am posting this in all three relevant threads..hope you donīt mind Cliff, just this once;

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
OK. Here is a chance for EVERYBODY to be happy with the outcome of THIS particular episode.
I have just received this quotation to make these badges for everybody. They can be finished in silver or gold. Here is the quotation I just received...and these are CHEAP!! No polishing, nothing. They will be exactly as the originals Andrew showed in his promotional thread. 4 weeks delivery from firm order.
NOW..the important bit!!!

ANDREW. I have NO intentions of putting this in motion. I hereby offer you ALL the details, all the neccesary contacts...everything. PLEASE ANSWER ME BY EMAIL OR PM!!! and let me know whether you want to do it this way. IF you donīt, I will arrange for one of the people who have already paid for their emblems to be able to handle this for everybody else who is still waiting for their emblems. PLEASE, ANDREW....get in touch...you could end up using these Manufacturers to make yourself a LOT of money, with NO EFFORT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!


Dear Mr. Cann,
Thank you very much for sharing the picture.

Yes, after viewing your sample photo, we surely can do this for you.

Here is the quotation. Please check.
Item: badge

Size: 60mm X50mm X 3mm Thickness

Price: US$7.8/pcs

Qty: 50~100 pcs

Mold Cost: US$260 (including 2 punchers)

(Special tooling: from the current design, we noticed some areas need punchers to make a shape cutting.

Each puncher will cost US$15. in this case, we will need 2 punchers.)

Plated: Gold or siver

Term: FOB Taiwan

Lead time: 4 weeks
If you have any question, you are very welcome to let me know. I will do my best to solve the problem

Again, thank you for the great chance you have offered. We are looking forward to have this great honor to serve for you.
Best Regards

*************** CO., LTD
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited