Check out this auction for this '88 Formula. Pay special attention the the HORSEPOWER CLAIM made on a normally aspirated 2.8, modded or not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...dZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

A couple of quotes from the listing:

"The engine is balanced and blueprinted with much precision machine work, including cylinder head porting. Estimated output near 300 horsepower. Modification of the computer chip will unleash more potential from this engine. It is currently still using the OEM computer chip. The vehicle is all original other than mechanical upkeep and internal machine work to the engine"


"This engine runs HOT, because it makes a LOT of power."

[This message has been edited by FieroFanatic13 (edited 08-01-2008).]

Well, there you go. I guess a bunch of us have wasted our time and money on conversions, it was there all the time and we just didn't do what it took to bring it out.

Ron

300 HP. There must be engine "magicians" at the shop he used. STOCK chip in the ecm too. Amazing!

Have never seen a junkyard car described so highly....

"Modification of the computer chip will unleash more potential from this engine. It is currently still using the OEM computer chip."


Wow, imagine how much more powerful it will become after you mod the chip!

Looking past the description, it currently isn't a bad price for someone looking for a donor T-Top 88, right? (the t-tops might need new rubber (which is a pain to get, right?)

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 08-01-2008).]

"his engine REQUIRES minimum 20W-50 oil to maintain pressure because of the clearances the engine builder decided to use"

Here in CA, I asked about storing my Fiero inside a enclosed storage; due to the potential of fires they told me no. I guess it a different story in Canada?

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 08-01-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: "his engine REQUIRES minimum 20W-50 oil to maintain pressure because of the clearances the engine builder decided to use"

Yeah, WTF on that one...Sounds like that engine must have been built loose!


Here's another one I don't totally understand:

"I don't think it is a good idea to run it as-is. I used Castrol GTX 20W-50 oil in it (natural, not synthetic) and the dirt has separated from the oil, from going too long without running."

WHAT does he mean, the "dirt has separated from the oil?"

I couldn't help myself and i emailed this clown.
Here is his response...

I disagree, and I know better. I have a 2007 Pontiac G6 as a daily driver, with a naturally aspirated 3.5L V6 engine in it, which has 219HP (almost as much as your larger supercharged engine). The 2008 model G6 with the GXP package has an available 3.6L V6 engine (also naturally aspirated) with 252 horsepower (MORE than your larger, supercharged engine). There are a lot of variables that determine horsepower output, and I spent about $10,000 making sure that those variables were addressed on this particular engine. The engine in this car was built by a professional racing engine builder, and he is quite an expert. Think of it this way: if this were a 350 V8, it would have close to 600 horsepower. There are plenty of 350 V8s running around out there with MUCH more than 600 horsepower. If you ever watched NASCAR Winston Cup racing, you have seen a bunch of them. In fact, it is well-known that without the restrictor plates, those 358 cid engines (5.9L) put out OVER 800 horsepower. As radical as my V6 is, it is still not that radical, so you can see my claim is not as exaggerated as you believe. With all that being brought to light and laid on the table for all to see, I will close by saying I resent the accusation that I am (quote)trying to misslead people and (quote) should be banned from existence. I wish you could have known the joy I once had when driving my Fiero, before I put it in storage. I wish you could have experienced the amazing power this engine made in its heyday. If you had, then this exchange of words would not have taken place. I am sorry I have to sell my car. It is not what I originally intended to do. But it is my sincere hope that someone that can appreciate it for what it is and what it can be will make the effort to restore it and get it running again the way it once did -- and not only that, I hope they get it running better than it did when I had it on the road. I feel better now, and I hope you do too. Thanks for writing!

Ask him to prove the HP... or at least it is close to his claim. If so.. tell him you are willing to pay $10 per HP over 200 and he must be willing to drop the price by $10 per HP for anything between the dyno HP and his claim of 300.

quote Originally posted by FieroFanatic13: Yeah, WTF on that one...Sounds like that engine must have been built loose! Here's another one I don't totally understand: "I don't think it is a good idea to run it as-is. I used Castrol GTX 20W-50 oil in it (natural, not synthetic) and the dirt has separated from the oil, from going too long without running." WHAT does he mean, the "dirt has separated from the oil?"

Well, he IS using Castrol.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: The sad part is that people are bidding on it!

Well, think of the body panels and T-Top pieces... I suppose they would be worth SOMETHING, right?

Hey Curly, you know it snows year round up here in Canada, so it keeps the fires to a minimum :} lol (Canadian humour)

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Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

I think the car is stored in WV according to his listing, or a question asked about it. I really think he should revise the listing though the 300 hp claim is totally unsubstantiated. Its misleading and fraudulent. Still not bad for a t top car, or a parts car.

[This message has been edited by Macs86GT (edited 08-01-2008).]

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Here in CA, I asked about storing my Fiero inside a enclosed storage; due to the potential of fires they told me no. I guess it a different story in Canada?

Because it's a Fiero? I have a car in storage in CA.

------------------

My Build Thread

I asked him to provide documentation on the HP... here is what I got.

"No, I cannot prove the HP is near 300. We did not dyno test the engine, so I do not have a dyno sheet with the HP rating. Since it won't even start at the present time, it is currently producing exactly ZERO horsepower. I wasn't born yesterday either, but I don't believe that is the point either of us are trying to make here. I put nearly $20,000 into that car, total. The engine is precision machined and blueprinted and balanced with the exact same care as a full-race drag-racing engine. In fact, depending on what state laws apply (maybe even those of WV), the vehicle is not street-legal in some places. The Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve and the Catalytic Converter were removed from the exhaust system when the steel tubing headers were installed (Part # 95727 from the Fiero Store -- check their website at FieroStore DOT COM to verify the current price of $599.99) and this is considered a violation in some states that perform vehicle inspections. I will continue to answer questions as they arise. Thank you for taking the time to look at the listing and write to me."

300hp, not likely. I don't believe it, however I won't say that it cant be done. Dif intake (never see 7k rpm with stock intake), headers, super headwork, very wild cam, and 12.5-13:1 pistons just for starters. Such would explain the hot engine and need for 104+ oct. The heavy oil, like someone said, bearings are likely worn out. Doubt he has any of those things aside from maybe higher comp ratio, else we would have lots of engine pictures to look at. And that 300HP would be crank not rear wheels. Naw, even then, 300HP and 7K is really pushing it without boost.

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[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

Check out this GT!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...=p4506.c0.m245.l1318

Or this GT rear clip!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...=p4506.c0.m245.l1318

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 08-01-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Unsafe At Any Speed: Because it's a Fiero? I have a car in storage in CA.

Cars in general. The place is called Derrel's Mini Storage. I asked many yrs ago so they may have a different policy.

Oh, I see. Probably just that place. Different places have different policies, but anyway back to this sweet 300 hp 2.8!

OMG what a wanker. He is justifying every single problem with the car to be a good thing. it was built this way, etc etc. It is already too expensive for what it is. Anyone asked him for pics of the engine se we can stare in awe at the stock plenium and throttle body, that through unknown to us magical powers, produces this HP figure.

Is he catholic? Maybe the pope blessed the engine at some point.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Is he catholic? Maybe the pope blessed the engine at some point.

He tried, but couldn't bless the car, it was locked inside the storage unit.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Is he catholic? Maybe the pope blessed the engine at some point.

The Pope is Catholic! Who Knew? I heard the Popemobile had 300 horse also, I'd never challenge him.

Ron

I dont think I've ever seen someone blow so much smoke up the worlds ass in my life. I feel sorry if someone ignorant buys it.

With THAT kind of power, I just might buy the car and install his engine into my 88GT. Of course I would have to get rid of my LT1 but hey it probably gets 40MPG.
Maybe NOT.

Well, technically, from what I learned so far in HPPT class here at Wyotech, 300hp IS possible from a HEAVILY MODIFIED 2.8L. I say Heavily modified, because it has to have some radical things done to it. First we gotta ditch the camshaft, get a brand new, custom ground (not comp cams, more like a small cam grinding company where you can tell them exactly what you want, and they dont try and sell you any off the shelf cams) camshaft, with long duration, and high lift, roller camshaft with a small LSA and properly tuned cam advance for the scavanging effect to bring the engine over 100% VE, or well, close to with just the cam. Now the heads have to be changed to high port heads, with proper short turns. Then those have to be touched up with a bit of porting and polishing, before you then worry about the intake. A short runner EFI would work wonders for the HP, the low end TQ would suffer greatly. For the overlap from the close LSA, the lope on the car's idle would be unbearable for street driving. a Short Runner Large Plenum intake would work well for dampening pulsations and having a nice short runner, though vacuum of the engine would be dismal. A MoTeC or equivilant ECU and custom programming and a high volume fuel pump with properly sized injectors would be good for the fuel circuit. Exhaust, probably 180 degree headers would work wonders for helping finalize a 110% VE from a N/A engine. Also the valves would be best done in Titanium, have an aluminum flywheel, Chrome Moly roller rockers, etc, to lessen all of the parasitic losses, along with a dry sump oiling system, and tight clearances, then 300-400hp is available from a 2.8L with peak power @ roughly 7000RPMs, but remember stiffer springs would be required for those RPMs to prevent valve float.

I know thats a readers digest version of how to design a 300hp N/A 2.8L, but it can be done. is it practical? Absolutely not. the price, and the streetability would be two factors. An engine like that, would never see the street. Emissions rules would bash it down, its idle and low range TQ would make it a B*TCH to drive on the street. you would have to be sitting at 4000rpms all the time while cruising at 30mph! it would be rediculously unbearable. It would be ideal for a race car though.

i asked him for some pictures of the motor....we will see what his response is.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: "his engine REQUIRES minimum 20W-50 oil to maintain pressure because of the clearances the engine builder decided to use"

So the builder thought it would be prudent to use bearing clearances in the .5 mm range? LMAO, no honestly, I laughed out loud when I read that.

Oh, and someone please explain to me how you can change a rear main just dropping the pan, and why exactly is the seal going out on this new hot rod engine.

I will go so far as to say that 300 HP is impossible out of a N/A 2.8L Im not even sure Id feel the need to throw in "under reasonable circumstances", Id say, flat out, without power adders, 300 HP is impossible. You're talking nearly 2 HP per cuin. Maybe with better technology, materials, DOHC, full race build, rediculous compression...

Yea, and how exactly does dirt seperate from oil? Id love to know the answer to that one, especially how you can tell on a dipstick.

One more point, the octane boost stuff, its pure BS, it claims "10 points" but if you read the fine print, 10 points = 1 octane, so a whole bottle will raise the octane of half a tank one point.

Jesus christ, he put a 100 amp fuel pump in it? I mean, damn if your 90 amp alternator cant feed your fuel pump, well I dont know what to say... 12v@100 amps = 1200 watts, thats about a 1.5 horsepower fuel pump!

Oh, and im betting all the wont idle, doesnt like low RPMs, is more about him having something screwed up than it being so wild.

HA! I love this part, its so wild and not street legal.... because he cut the emissions off, yea that makes it so much more unstreetable..

HA!

I wish I lived in the area, I would offer him free dyno time anywhere he wanted I would pay for it. Id throw in a used battery and a oil change too, just to see it crack 160... at the crank, maybe 140 down.

Hey guys, you seem to be missing the point. If that is a clean (minimal rust) 88 Fiero with T-tops, I'd take it for $900. That engine is coming out anyway in my book, regardless of claims. With or without the engine, it's worth the money, at least to me. Everything else, you take with a grain of salt.

Bob

[This message has been edited by RCR (edited 08-02-2008).]

Yep and I will throw in a Push lawn Mower that is making 50 hp.

HAHA. Oh, that is too funny. I cannot believe the bidding has already hit $890 bucks. I certainly wouldn't pay more for it. First, it needs a clutch which is by no means an easy job... next it needs a paint job. Those two items alone will either take a lot of time and effort, a lot of money, or maybe both.

Then comes this basket case engine. Oh, it's "race built." Ok. We know it's not 300 HP N/A on the OEM comp chip. If some shop did try to build it within an inch of it's life, it may have problems, may simply not "run" well on a stock tune, or have other issues about it too.

I smell a real basket case here.

If this car has a clean chassis, it might be worth a lot of time and effort to bring it back from the dead. However.... if the chassis has significant rust, this looks like a good candidate for parting out.

Anyone with desktop dyno or similar software able to make a N/A 2.8 hit 300 crank?

well, I'm calling total BS on the engine... I asked him for some engine pics and here's the response I got:

Hello, I don't have any pictures of the engine, but there is not much to see -- it looks nearly identical to a stock engine! Nearly everything that was done to it is not notable from the outward appearance. The MSD coil and MSD ignition wires blend in perfectly since they are also red (similar to how the intake manifold was painted from the factory). The adjustable fuel pressure regulator is tucked away out of sight, and the headers are not that obvious because the engine is transversely mounted (you can't see but one of the manifolds).
I will see what I can do about making a trip to the storage bay and getting more pictures. I have been pondering the car a lot, since so many questions have been coming in, and I want to take this opportunity to add as much information as I can here for the benefit of everyone who reads this.
Most of what you see on the paint is just dust from sitting in storage, but the front hood and rear deck lid have whitish areas on them where the paint is worn down to the primer. GM had trouble with their paint process in the late 1980's, and Pontiac was widely affected. I have seen other cars with this same problem (Fieros and non-Fieros alike). The car will clean up fairly well with a strong detergent and a good scrubbing, but the paint problem still remains; that is why I say it needs repainted.
The interior is in fairly good condition. I had a rip in the side of the driver's seat repaired a while back, and again, it just needs a trip to the detail shop after a good session with a vacuum cleaner. All of the gauges work. The fuel gauge (as all GM vehicles of this era I have ever owned) goes above full when full and is still reading a quarter tank when it is actually empty. I think it may have something to do with the float getting stuck with age. I had a Chevy S-10 truck that did this, another Fiero that did this, and a Chevy Lumina that did the same exact thing. It's just another GM problem -- nothing particular to Fieros.


What a crock!