quote Originally posted by blackrams: Nice pics. Now does anyone know where we can get some similar looking wheels at a reasonable price.

Pantera have huge wheels, will they fit?

I thought I would be of some help on this...

PIC -

Details -
" TARGET=_blank>http://cragar.dkhinc.com/WheelsDetail.asp?id=620[/URL]

PIC - [img]http://www.centerlinewheels.com/images/wheels/00_CONVO%20PRO%20RACE_hi_301x281.jpg[/URL ][/img]

Details - [URL=http://www.centerlinewheels.com/wheels_detail.php?mw_id=15&sw_id=79]http://www.centerlinewheels.com/wheels_detail.php?mw_id=15&sw_id=79

PIC - [img]http://www.centerlinewheels.com/images/wheels/00_CONVO%20PRO%20(street)_hi_301x281. jpg[/img]

Details - http://www.centerlinewheels.com/wheels_detail.php?mw_id=11&sw_id=64

There ya go! The middle one, or last one I think would work the best, plus it is a race rim, so you can get any sort of crazy offset and sizes (ex .15x15, 16x16 for the middle one)

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Nice pics. Now does anyone know where we can get some similar looking wheels at a reasonable price.

------------------
Custom Fiero 2M4 - 3800 Swap Coming Soon?....

[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 01-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by The Black Widow: Pantera have huge wheels, will they fit?

Anything is possible, just depends on whether or not you're willing to spend the bucks. What ever we do will be some sort of compromise, but I would like to replicate the Pantera look as much as possible. Remember, this is still on a Fiero hub, but I would like to move into a 16 or 17 inch wheel. Fronts will be somewhere in the 7 to 8" arena, rear will probably be 9 to 11" wide. Thanks for the input, the search goes on.

------------------
Ron
aka: Blackrams Fieros
Freedom isn't Free, infact it comes with a very high price.
Pantero Creations

opm2000,

Would you be willing to produce wide fender flares for the Fiero?

I'm looking everywhere for a good shape that can be used in the Fiero and is affordable!

Thanks!
James.

Beast,
Sure, that would be a fun project. There are a couple of widebody kits out there, but I don't know, there may not be a simple "flare" kit. I think Chester did a bit of custom work in this department recently, and I'll see if I can get a look at the Dirty Rat, to get some ideas.

It would be best if we knew a wheel and tire size that you wanted to use with the flares. That way we could bring them into the correct size and shape to start with, as opposed to building a flare and then figuring out what w/t combination fits. I'll wait untill warmer spring weather arrives, before starting on something like this.

It's interesting how both the Fiero and the Pantera designs just beg for customization, and share design aspects. This pic was sent to me by a Fiero/Pantera owner in Sweden. It shows a Pantera front air dam which was modified to fit his Fiero. Looks right at home to me.

BTW, this is a fairly good representation of the front air dam we're working on right now.

David Breeze

David,

I'm up for it, the wheels will be between 17 or 18 or even 19 (inches that is).
It all really depends in what is available for a good price, offset, width etc.

To give you an idea:

Regardless the (17-18-19 diameter) they all will average in the front about 25 inches and 26.5 in the back, by using the proper tire wheel combination.

The front and rear width will remain about the same, regardless of their sizes as well.
With the front being between 7 - 8.5 inches
And the back about 9 -10 inches.
The offsets will be between 40-50 in the front, and between 30-40 in the back

That will give me an average of about 1-1.5 inches sticking out of the front fenders
And more or less about 2-2.5 inches in the back!

Thanks!
James.

What will use as the front hood vent as in whats on the Pantera?

[This message has been edited by VISCERAL (edited 01-28-2005).]

You weren't just teasing about the pics of the flared front end, were you ?

bump

Visceral,
You know, it's only about a 5 1/2 hour drive from Chicago to Lexington, you should take a weekend trip down and pay us a visit.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-01-2005).]

quote Originally posted by opm2000: David Breeze

Wow! That looks really sharp. I'd would go as far as to say that looks better than the GT style facia. How much will it cost?

(sorry don't want to hijack thread, just curious)

updates, Got to hav'em!!!

quote Originally posted by VISCERAL: updates, Got to hav'em!!!

Now that you have an open and standing offer, you don't have to wait for an update, come on down and see for yourself.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

Ron, if I leave now I'll be there by next tuesday . Now can I see a pic of the flared front end

Sorry about the delay, guys. I've sort of taken a break and been working on my 4.9/Allante, fabricating all of the cradle mounts. You need a break every so often.

As far as hood vent grill material, those particular grills look pretty nice. I think they could easily be duplicated with some strap steel and a mig welder. Then sandblast them and powdercoat. A nice weekend project.

The front clip is now ready for final contouring, assembly, and bondoing. What's that mean? Well, this front air dam has to have a removable plug made. Where the fender flares can be formed on the clip and the molds taken directly from them as installed on the clip.....the air dam will have to be formed and then removed from the clip. This is to allow all of the stages of smoothing, spraying, etc that has to be done.

So what we now have is this:

The foam has been squared up with the valence bottom, the fender sides, and the front of the car. The front clip is jigged to be setting as it will on the chassis. A ramp between the two foam blocks has been made, and removed. And the bottom lip which surrounds the entire assembly has been made and removed. Some final contouring of the front face of the foam blocks will be done to accomodate these:

which are APC H312V halogen 2.5" x 4" driving lights. An opening will be formed with a nicely radiused in-turning lip.

Next is to assemble the pieces and apply one layer of fiberglass, reinforce the assembly, and remove it from the front clip. Then more smoothing and fitting.

It's taking some time, but let me tell you, when Blackrams helped me turn the clip over to what you see here, He could see what was taking shape and, well , got excited all over again.

I hope to have all of this flare/airdam business completed in time to take samples to Ed Park's Swapmeet.

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Ron, if I leave now I'll be there by next tuesday . Now can I see a pic of the flared front end

Paul,
Tuesday will be fine. Do you prefer your coffee black? Any favorite breakfast items you would like us to stock up. We'll hold the room after 6:00 PM without reservation, but would like a verbal confirmation. Cya Tuesday.

BTW, arrivals after 10:00 PM really piss off the proprietor, try to get here before bedtime.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-02-2005).]

Well, your stuff is turning out so good don't be surprised to hear a knock on the door someday :. I'll buy the first round of coffee ! I love the flared front end but had a question:

The pics on page 4 of this thread seem to show 2 versions of the flared front end; (1) like the red car and a different one like the blue car.

To me at least, the blue car version looks much better and muscular because the flares are blended into the body; the red car version looks more like it was added on later. Are you planning to blend the flares like the blue car (I hope). If you made a flared version like the blue car, it really adds more variety to the kits you're offering because it's a lot more different than the stock version you already have.

Wonderful job ...keep up the good work ...

By the way, as a kid I remember going to an autoshow and seeing the new 1971 Pantera and wondering how anybody could afford $10,000 for a car ....

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 02-03-2005).]

PaulK,
Similar experience: I was a kid on a ten sped bike, riding with my buddies one summer night. We ran into the only two Panteras in Kentucky that night. They were at the gas station, filling up. It was an incredible experience, seeing them, knowing they were out running the backroads thru the Bluegrass horse farms. This was in '73, and we'd never seen anything like a Countach or Ferrarri. It was almost a spiritual experience.

But about the styling of the flares and airdam.

The Pantera seems to have gone thru three or four major styling changes, and to have benefited form many personal styling modifications.

The body molds I currently have are of the basic body which endures thru all of the changes. This is the yellow prototype car, seen in this thread. It has the relatively small wheel flares built in, and no air dam.

Then we have a mold for an early air dam, or really a type of chin. There are pics of it in this thread. It adds a lot to the looks of the Pantera. I personally think it takes more custom fitting to fit it up to the body. But if you like it's looks, it is a cool, doable addition.

Then there are the add on Pantera flares which I purchased, and they are seen earlier in the thread. They really add some physical "pizazz" to things, and I think they would work well with stock wheels and tires just fine. I plan to make molds of these in case someone cares for that look. These were the first type flares to be added to the Pantera. There are examples of these actually riveted to the body, and that was the look. For that look, these flares fit with very little additional work. But if you wanted these flares to blend and flow into the body, they will require a bit more body work. Very doable and good looking, though.

Actually, the previously mentioned flares are what led me to building the flares we are on now. They will more resemble the type on the red car. That is to say, they may not be exactly like the red car's flares, but they are definately inspired by them. I've had three main criteria in fashioning these flares.

They must look good on their own, in case they are the only addition to the basic body. I've really paid attention to how they will flow into the rocker panels and into the leading or trailing fenders.

They must work with both air dams. Once again, hours spent considering how they look with the flares.

They must fit. I can't build the car for the average builder, but I can sure make it easier for him by making butt lines match and having an alignment/reference point on every part. Some of the Ferrari builders out there can show you examples of having to section, chop, and remake almost every body panel to make it fit. Not here.

Anyhow, these current flares are more of the third generation type. Again, they have been both riveted on, and blended in. Both looks are cool, it's just builder preference.

The air dam I'm currently building will very much resemble that on the red car. However, it will have a somewhat more sloped "side curtian" than the red car has. I'm refering to the verticle panel between the front edge of the front fender, and the front of the car. In this respect, it will somewhat resemble the air dam on the blue car.

The blue car looks to be from the fourth generation, or the 1980's versions. I agree, I love that totally blended look. I believe this form is more similar to the white Predator, which you may have seen. I'm sure that one day I'll build one of these. This form can easily be atained by modifying the stock body which we now produce. Hopefully an ambitious builder will produce an example, soon. Or maybe someone will comission us to build one as a turnkey.

Right now my main focus is this:

to produce Blackrams' Pantera, he has had some good design ideas and has been instrumental in bringing about this project.

And I want to complete my choptop Pantera. You simply can't believe what a simple choptop does when combined with the Pantera body...it's wicked.

And I want to service the one or two folks who have said they want a body kit. It takes time to go thru this start up process, and the quality of the first few builds out there is crucial. Down the road, I don't see producing more than three or four kits a year, simply to keep a lid on quality, and to maintain my sanity.

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by opm2000: PaulK, Blackrams' Pantera, he has had some good design ideas and has been instrumental in bringing about this project. And I want to complete my choptop Pantera. You simply can't believe what a simple choptop does when combined with the Pantera body...it's wicked. And I want to service the one or two folks who have said they want a body kit. It takes time to go thru this start up process, and the quality of the first few builds out there is crucial. Down the road, I don't see producing more than three or four kits a year, simply to keep a lid on quality, and to maintain my sanity. David Breeze

All true, and thanks for mentioning me, but Dave is the craftsman. Gotta be honest though, Dave, it's too friggin late, you lost your sanity just before we started this project. I came along willingly.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

Here are a few ads from a kitcar magazine that might help you with finding the wheels you want :

Real nice craftmanship! Good to see you're putting your own ideas in this buildup.

I think the top wheel would look cool...in 19" or something

quote Originally posted by PaulJK:

yeah - LOVE the spinners but I'm partial to 16 inch myself - also love a somewhat soft but smooth ride

In that I've already got the C4 Vette Brake upgrade for the Pantero, it obviously requires larger wheels, I've already got the C4 upgrade on my 4.9 Formula running it with 16" Centerlines, which is the smallest diameter wheel I know of that you can run with the C4 upgrade, I'm very satisfied with the improved performance of these brakes. But I also like the ride achieved with a little more side wall on the tires so I doubt I'll go any larger than 17's. Thanks for the leads on the wheels, we'll post more pics as time goes. We're hoping to have a Pantero road ready by the CFOG-I Show in Osage Beach, MO this summer.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

quote Originally posted by opm2000: The blue car looks to be from the fourth generation, or the 1980's versions. I agree, I love that totally blended look. I believe this form is more similar to the white Predator, which you may have seen. I'm sure that one day I'll build one of these. This form can easily be atained by modifying the stock body which we now produce. Hopefully an ambitious builder will produce an example, soon. Or maybe someone will comission us to build one as a turnkey.

Just for those who have never seen the Predator here is a couple of pictures

it is a replica of a Pantera 200 or Nuvo pantera

here are some pictures of that car

There are molds made for my car, and they were for sale. I did at one time think about making and selling body kits, but I decided it would be to much trobule for what little money you could make, and I like having one of only 2 cars left. { there were 3 cars built and 1 car wrecked} Good luck with your project and I hope you do well.

[This message has been edited by DL10 (edited 02-12-2005).]

DL10,
Very nice ride. What else is there to say, very nice indeed.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-12-2005).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: DL10, Very nice ride. What else is there to say, very nice indeed.

Thank you ...............I take no credit for any part of the building of the car, all I did was write a check

I think we met at Wheatstock. I really didn't get much time to to visit.........I was asked to be a judge sence I didn't have my car there, and it kind of took my whole day.

[This message has been edited by DL10 (edited 02-12-2005).]

Save yourself some design work time and make a mold of the wheel flares off DL10s car and voila, old beautiful nose, nice flares and we now have the 80's blue model wrapped up. DL10, you should compare car bodies in person, he's only 2 states away. Add a targa top and a 2"-3" chop and a v8 and look out!

P.s. Theres just something about those wheelwells on DL's car that just doesnt look right to the eyes, not bad but theres something.

[This message has been edited by VISCERAL (edited 02-12-2005).]

quote Originally posted by DL10: I think we met at Wheatstock. I really didn't get much time to to visit.........I was asked to be a judge sence I didn't have my car there, and it kind of took my whole day.

Yep, Dave and I both spoke with you briefly before you took off to judge. Good times in Topeka, I'm sure Osage Beach will be just as much fun. Hope to see you there.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

Ron: Hope they help. The magazone was an old one, so I hope the ads are still good. Man, your car would look good with the cobra wheels with spinners ....

DL - Nice cars, especially the red one . I have a question for you - check your PM ...

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 02-13-2005).]

Paul,
Thanks for the information, we've already made contact via inter-net. We'll see where this goes.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

Still following this thread Ron, anxious to see the finished product!

quote Originally posted by DRA: Still following this thread Ron, anxious to see the finished product!

I'll put it this way, you wouldn't recognize that 88 4 Cylinder coupe today, I'll leave it at that for now.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

Any updates?
I want to see more Pics!

Thanks!
JG.

Dave will probably post some pics in the near future, but just to update you all, we are building two Panteros, mine will be very similar to the yellow car you have seen in the preceeding pics, but mine will not be a rear tilt clip. I'm modifying the rear somewhat, it will still look very much the same as the yellow car, but my car will have a rear deck lid that opens similar to the Fiero. Dave's project is a chopped Pantero, I gotta tell you, this is one bad a$$ looking ride. We, (mostly Dave) have been working to develop the fender flares and front spoiler/wing, but have been somewhat distracted because we aren't going to do any body fitting/mounting until the new engines and transaxles are in. Don't want to mess up any fiberglass doing the installation. Mine will be a stock 4.9 with a manual 5 speed, utilizing Rockcrawl's chip. Dave's will be slightly more exotic, but I'll let him tell you about that swap.

Still looking for a reasonably priced set of wheels that will be appropriate to this project, thanks to some Forum member's suggestions, we have found some very nice wheels that would look fanastic on the cars, only issue is price. That's right, we're still Fiero folks at heart and in the wallet. Anyone with suggestions, please reply to this. Thanks for asking.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

I recieved and interesting package today, from Bo, in Sweden.

Seems he owned a Pantera and a Fiero, both at the same time. He used his Pantera air dam to fashion an airdam for his Fiero. I have previously posted a pic of his creation.

Anyhow, in the spirit of bringing something new to the Fiero community, Bo has shipped the mold for his airdam to me. I had offered to build a few Fiero/Pantera airdams from his mold and offer it to any Fiero customizers out there.

Enjoy.

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by opm2000: ...And I want to complete my choptop Pantera. You simply can't believe what a simple choptop does when combined with the Pantera body...it's wicked.

Somebody get busy Photoshoppin'... I gotta see this!

quote Originally posted by opm2000: I recieved and interesting package today, from Bo, in Sweden. Seems he owned a Pantera and a Fiero, both at the same time. He used his Pantera air dam to fashion an airdam for his Fiero. I have previously posted a pic of his creation. Anyhow, in the spirit of bringing something new to the Fiero community, Bo has shipped the mold for his airdam to me. I had offered to build a few Fiero/Pantera airdams from his mold and offer it to any Fiero customizers out there. Enjoy. David Breeze

you have my interest here how much are these dam's going to be sold for and when will
they be avalable

Bubbajoexxx,
I'll be starting the work on this mold this weekend. To ship it, Bo had to cut it in half. So I have to jig it back together and apply some additional reinforcing to the backside. Then, aside from a standard cleanup and polishing, the mold will be ready to try pulling an air dam from it. At most, there will be a minor parting line up the center, where the ramp into the radiator is. But I think I can make the repair invisible.

Cost will be very modest, although I can't really say untill the first one is done. I'll earmark it for you and you can decide later. Shouldn't take too long to get the results.

David Breeze

Here is a brief update on the front airdam. The shape of this airdam requires that the plug be built on the front clip....then removed. This is to allow for the surface preparations before applying the gelcoat of the mold.

You've seen the pouring and rough shaping of the foam so far. The lip and ramp were made seperately, using Clarke foam. It comes in 3/8" sheets and is resistant to epoxies and resins, and it shapes easily. These parts were cut to fit and the radius of the outer edge sanded in. Then a mixture of resin and glass micro-balloons was made up and squeeged onto the foam surface. Before this slurry set up, a layer of fiberglass was applied.

Next, a layer of fiberglass was applied to the poured foam pieces on the nose clip. This was after metal furnace tape was carefully applied to the nose clip, to act as a release. The glass cured and was trimmed and sanded a bit.

Next, the lip and ramp pieces were jigged into place and bondo was used to create radius edges, to further shape the final product.

Here you see kleen-clay being used. I didn't like the look of the lip on the sides of the airdam, so here we are using the clay to quickly fill in and reshape a portion of the plug. Once this is finalized, another layer of glass will be applied. Then the whole works will be turned over, the underside reinforced and glassed so it won't warp, and the entire plug removed from the nose clip.

Here's some of the most used items or tools. Duct tape and furnace tape make quick, thin release tapes for both foam and glass cloth. Bondo is used for shaping radius and filets, and for filling foam surfaces. Hot glue gun is for quick jigging or attaching parts. Most shaping is done with a rasp file, a surform, or 80 grit paper on a hard or soft block.

If you look at the unused resin in the cup, you'll notice it has turned a red color. The resin I use does this when some is left in a cup. This makes a great "double check" device. When you start a layup or as the layup progresses, you can use this trait to confirm that you have properly mixed your resin. There was a thread recently where someones layup was slow to cure. Although temperature may have been the culprit in that case, it's not uncommon to either improperly mix your resin, or actually forget to catalyise a batch. Red cups at the end of a layup are nice.

David Breeze