This is a gret buil-up thread, David. Keep up the good work.

Bob

quote Originally posted by opm2000: Bubbajoexxx, I'll be starting the work on this mold this weekend. To ship it, Bo had to cut it in half. So I have to jig it back together and apply some additional reinforcing to the backside. Then, aside from a standard cleanup and polishing, the mold will be ready to try pulling an air dam from it. At most, there will be a minor parting line up the center, where the ramp into the radiator is. But I think I can make the repair invisible. Cost will be very modest, although I can't really say untill the first one is done. I'll earmark it for you and you can decide later. Shouldn't take too long to get the results. David Breeze

thank you be sure to let me know

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx: thank you be sure to let me know

Bubba,
We played around with the new mold this evening, it is pretty interesting, but i gotta tell you, honestly, Dave's version is IMHO much nicer. No offense to anyone that likes the other versions. It's all a matter of what you like.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

bump

Pics coming soon, this is gonna be cool.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

The plug is prepared for removal from the front clip by first attaching a couple of wooden braces. These were hot glued in place, and then 2 part foam poured in to fill voids between the braces and the plug.

The foam was shaped to a fillet shape, to help the glass cloth lay down. A slurry of micro was squeeged into the foam, and bondo used to fill remaining big gaps. Then four layers of cloth laid up and allowed to cure. The idea here is to create bracing that will prevent any twisting or distorting of the plug as it is removed.

So, the plug was seperated from the front clip. If you remember, duct tape was used on the front clip, to act as a parting surface for the foam. And metal furnace tape used as additional parting surface for the glass. With the aid of wedges and a tight pucker, the plug came right off.

A pic of the foam. It stays in place thru the rest of the preparation process. The glass edges have to be trued up, and some surface filling and smoothing done with bondo. Then a few coats of Duratec sanding primer, followed by lots of wet sanding and polishing. Then we actually build the mold, based on this plug.

BTW, the foam represents dead air space between the airdam and the front clip. The idea is that the entire backside of a new airdam will be totally accessable to the builder, once he has positioned the airdam. The majority of the attachment layups can then be done from the inside, and a nice blending of the outside done, with only a lighter closeout layup required on the outside. Then if more interior space is required for lights or whatever, the builder can cut as required into the front clip, behing the airdam.

Progress is being made on Bo's Swedish airdam. I've cleaned it up, sanded for reattachment, and jigged it back together for permanant reatachment. I'll try to get pics up tonight.

David Breeze

I told you it was gonna be cool.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
Pantero Creations

Do you have a kit ready as of yet? Just looking hard here.
I love the widened look of the flares.

let me know

Robert Ver Halen
336-462-1040

Robert,
The servers here at the University are going down today for maintenance today, so this will be brief, and I'll get an email to you this evening from home.

I've got a front and rear clip completed and setting in the molds, ready to take out. BTW, that's a good way to protect the molds, and of course, the longer a part sets in the mold, the better. The flares and the air dam are progressing into the polishing stage this weekend, so they are soon to be in production.

Anyhow, I'm prepared to work you a sweet deal...I think you'll like it. As I said earlier, the first six kits are priced as they are, and I'm going to try to do even better than that by each one of them.

David Breeze

Sounds great, I would like to get my car and your body kit put in the same room and make them both shine.
Then I will be calling a few people to get a video and other things set up. Since my dash is only 1 of 12 ever made it makes the car even more special. I would even take off a few weeks to get this online. Time to make a name for yourself and get the world rocking again with a new kit. I am tired of seeing Lambo's and other really expensive kit cars that not everyone can own.
The whole idea of a kit car is to have something that you can not own (the real version) and build something like it for yourself.
Most people build Fiero based kit cars and never touch the basic Fiero, like suspension / Brakes / carriage itself etc.
Since my car is done throughout and show ready then only thing I need to do is put on the kit and wheels and I have an even better car then before and since I drive to everything to show her off Iwould even carry fliers, cards, CD's to pass out to people to get them excited enought to buy one. Price of Fieros being low and the kits being of great quality the combination would just renew the interest in Fieros again to bump the price of our cars even higher.
I am looking at this in a different way since this is the newest and most interesting project that I have seen in a while.

Let's talk and make this happen

Robert Ver Halen
336-462-1040

[This message has been edited by rverhalen (edited 03-15-2005).]

updates please

For those interested there is a big article on this car (the original/not this project) in this month's (May) issue of Sports Car International.

You can find the Magazine at Barnes and Noble.

[This message has been edited by exoticse (edited 04-07-2005).]

Well, things have progressed, but it's been one step forwards and two steps backwards, you know?

I guess I wasted about a month while a certian person was busy blowing hot smoke up my tailpipe. He wanted a kit, had a real nice donor car, and spends literally hours on the phone and email with Blackrams and I. I actually offered to either deliver the kit personally (no charge) and then fly to his place once a month untill completed.....or offered to fully assemble the body onto his donor car and return it to his place (no charge). Everything came to a screeching halt when I saw him announce in the Mall that he was getting a different kit. He never bothered to even notify me of his change of plans. I generally like to treat people well, and expect as much from them.

No big deal, I just wanted to get that off my chest.

Sooooo, where were we?

I put the Swedish front airdam mold back together, and then was able to see that the mold is for the Pantera. I mistakenly assumed that Bo had resized an airdam to fit his Fiero, and then made the mold. Seems he must have made the mold, and then resized the part made from it. So Bubbajoe, I could send you an airdam that you could resize, but not one ready to attach and go. I'll be going thru the resizing process and making a mold from the new part this spring, but it's going to be a while.

I was all ready to spray up the fender flares & airdam with Duratec. Got all set up to spray, and opened the Duratec to see that it had expired it's shelf life. Looked like real thick gook. I ordered new Duratec and am now wet sanding those parts, readying to build the molds.

That did give me time to decide to build epoxy based molds, instead of polyester molds, though. The epoxy system is more expensive, but it overcomes the alligatoring problem with poly molds. Often there is "styrene migration" from the new mold. It usually disappears after producing three or four parts. But it manifests itself by causing alligatoring of the gelcoat layer. Problem is not structural if you use a sanding gelcoat, as I do. But it means sanding and spraying a part after it comes from the mold.

I'm real pleased with the way the flares & airdam look, at this point. My neighbor (a Porche driver) has gotten in the habit of coming over and lusting over them. Very distracting.

David Breeze

[This message has been edited by opm2000 (edited 04-07-2005).]

quote Originally posted by opm2000: Well, things have progressed, but it's been one step forwards and two steps backwards, you know? I guess I wasted about a month while a certian person was busy blowing hot smoke up my tailpipe. He wanted a kit, had a real nice donor car, and spends literally hours on the phone and email with Blackrams and I. I actually offered to either deliver the kit personally (no charge) and then fly to his place once a month untill completed.....or offered to fully assemble the body onto his donor car and return it to his place (no charge). Everything came to a screeching halt when I saw him announce in the Mall that he was getting a different kit. He never bothered to even notify me of his change of plans. I generally like to treat people well, and expect as much from them. No big deal, I just wanted to get that off my chest. Sooooo, where were we? I put the Swedish front airdam mold back together, and then was able to see that the mold is for the Pantera. I mistakenly assumed that Bo had resized an airdam to fit his Fiero, and then made the mold. Seems he must have made the mold, and then resized the part made from it. So Bubbajoe, I could send you an airdam that you could resize, but not one ready to attach and go. I'll be going thru the resizing process and making a mold from the new part this spring, but it's going to be a while. I was all ready to spray up the fender flares & airdam with Duratec. Got all set up to spray, and opened the Duratec to see that it had expired it's shelf life. Looked like real thick gook. I ordered new Duratec and am now wet sanding those parts, readying to build the molds. That did give me time to decide to build epoxy based molds, instead of polyester molds, though. The epoxy system is more expensive, but it overcomes the alligatoring problem with poly molds. Often there is "styrene migration" from the new mold. It usually disappears after producing three or four parts. But it manifests itself by causing alligatoring of the gelcoat layer. Problem is not structural if you use a sanding gelcoat, as I do. But it means sanding and spraying a part after it comes from the mold. I'm real pleased with the way the flares & airdam look, at this point. My neighbor (a Porche driver) has gotten in the habit of coming over and lusting over them. Very distracting. David Breeze

sounds like you are getting closser to the finish product and the investment in expoxy molds will pay for it self 10 times over as worping from old molds totaly disapers and they last way longer than resin molds and less prone to chipping when pulling parts I will get back to you on the front dam soon as I can modifie it my self if need be

bump

that's it. as of today i'm starting to squirrel away some cash for this body. i want this soooooooo badly...

Any Updates?

Please!

JG.

quote Originally posted by shawnkfl: that's it. as of today i'm starting to squirrel away some cash for this body. i want this soooooooo badly...

Me Too, I'll send pics just as soon as it's done.

Seriously though, just as soon as we work out any kinks we might find, we'll have some to ship out. This is a very easy kit to assemble and looks great, my problem is I want mine to be a little different, thus the delay. But we're working on it, I promise.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-11-2005).]

Well, here's where we are with the wheel flares & airdam. This shows a flare after recieving one mist coat & five wet coats of Duratec. The Duratec is lightly sanded 2-4 hours after spraying, with 80 grit paper on a sanding block. This opens the coat to complete overnight curing. The next day you continue to sand with 80 grit & 150 grit, using a block or spline. What you are doing is flattening the sandable filler/primer to expose low areas & pinholes. Those areas will remain a darker grey, and high areas become a lighter grey.

Here's the airdam after sanding. Now you use a finer filler similar to Bondo, but suitable for pinhole or spot filling. I like the Evercoat Metalfil because it's more of a liquid and can be mixed with a bit of micro-ballons if you want to make it heavier. Anyhow, you slightly overfill the voids and sand them down after 30 minutes, which is what you see here.

It's important to note that all materials so far are poly based. This means they have to be catalyzed, and will gel quickly, like 20 minutes or less. This can be exciting when you are using a spraygun, to say the least. Believe me, when a batch of Duratec gells inside you spraygun, it's the dickens to clean out.

Here's the Duratec and the best gun I've found so far for this type of spraying. This is a cheap, gravity feed, conventional spraygun with a 2mm tip. This allows uniform spraying of unthinned material. Any smaller tip will not work well. I've tried about every type of gun out there, and for this aplication, this works very well. The Duratec is also used as a gelcoat substitute when we do a layup in one of the molds. For this application I thin with @ 10% hot laquer thinner and use a HVLP gravity feed gun with a 2mm tip.

Next up is applying another 3 wet coats of Duratec and wet sanding thru 500 grit, followed by machine polishing and buffing thru 1500 grit. Thgsi should yield an incredibly smooth, reflective surface, suitable for mold production. Hopefully the mold layups will commence this weekend.

David breeze

Anyone going to The Fiero Factory Swap Meet? We're taking the orginal Pantero if anyone has an interest.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-14-2005).]

hey if you start selling this as a kit howw much

------------------
its always the ones you dont suspect

So far I'm sticking with what I said earlier:

>>
I'm trying to keep prices cut to the bone, as compared to the Kitcar market. I've setteled on a price of $4,000 for the first 6 body kits. After that, I'll review things and see if I'm in the poorhouse or not. I'm not doing this to become rich & famous, but I do have to cover my costs.

The $4,000 will include the front clip, rear clip, 2 door skins, front hood skin, front hood liner, 2 headlight door skins, and 4 bumpers. The instructions will detail how to fabricate the simple steel reinforcement and mounting brackets, as required. Or for an additional $400 these can be provided already made up and fiberglassed in where appropriate.

The molds are not made yet for the wheel flares, but the materials have been ordered. I plan to offer two different styles of front air dam (your choice) and 4 wheel flares for $650, with the first 6 body kits. This will be open for review as well at that point. Right now, the mold is not ready for the second style airdam, so that's clear.
<<

Until Carlisle 2006, the only advertising will be here on Pennock's, a showoing at Ed Park's Swapmeet, and a showing at the CFOG-i Osage Beach meet. After Carlsile, things may change. If you seriously want a kit now, email me and I will work with you.

I'd really like to encourage folks to support those who support us, such as Cliff, Ed Park's, and the CFOG-i folks. To say the least, fuel prices have put a strangle hold on our activities. And they can have the same effect on our supporter's businesses. Simple things like showing up at Ed's Swapmeet or the sumer CFOG-i meet, meeting the Fiero folks, and doing business with all those involved....can mean all the difference.

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by opm2000: I'd really like to encourage folks to support those who support us, such as Cliff, Ed Park's, and the CFOG-i folks. To say the least, fuel prices have put a strangle hold on our activities. And they can have the same effect on our supporter's businesses. Simple things like showing up at Ed's Swapmeet or the sumer CFOG-i meet, meeting the Fiero folks, and doing business with all those involved....can mean all the difference. David Breeze

Very well said and agreed to. Some things are hard to put a price on, having folks like Ed Parks and his crew at Fiero Factory is Priceless.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-15-2005).]

quote Originally posted by opm2000: So far I'm sticking with what I said earlier: >> I'm trying to keep prices cut to the bone, as compared to the Kitcar market. I've setteled on a price of $4,000 for the first 6 body kits. After that, I'll review things and see if I'm in the poorhouse or not. I'm not doing this to become rich & famous, but I do have to cover my costs. The $4,000 will include the front clip, rear clip, 2 door skins, front hood skin, front hood liner, 2 headlight door skins, and 4 bumpers. The instructions will detail how to fabricate the simple steel reinforcement and mounting brackets, as required. Or for an additional $400 these can be provided already made up and fiberglassed in where appropriate. The molds are not made yet for the wheel flares, but the materials have been ordered. I plan to offer two different styles of front air dam (your choice) and 4 wheel flares for $650, with the first 6 body kits. This will be open for review as well at that point. Right now, the mold is not ready for the second style airdam, so that's clear. << Until Carlisle 2006, the only advertising will be here on Pennock's, a showoing at Ed Park's Swapmeet, and a showing at the CFOG-i Osage Beach meet. After Carlsile, things may change. If you seriously want a kit now, email me and I will work with you. I'd really like to encourage folks to support those who support us, such as Cliff, Ed Park's, and the CFOG-i folks. To say the least, fuel prices have put a strangle hold on our activities. And they can have the same effect on our supporter's businesses. Simple things like showing up at Ed's Swapmeet or the sumer CFOG-i meet, meeting the Fiero folks, and doing business with all those involved....can mean all the difference. David Breeze

your gas prices are alot cheeper than what I pay $4.05 cents a gallon here in Canada on a good day on a bad day $4.15 per Gallon so you dont have too much to complain about

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 04-16-2005).]

>>you dont have too much to complain about<<

Isn't that the truth ! We had a German girl with us last year as a Foreign exchange student. She recently emailed me that they were paying for a litre of gas what we pay for a gallon.

I used to think that when the revolution came that the lawyers would be the first ones up against the wall, but maybe it will be the fuel barons instead :>

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx: your gas prices are alot cheeper than what I pay $4.05 cents a gallon here in Canada on a good day on a bad day $4.15 per Gallon so you dont have too much to complain about

Bubba,
I hate to think what I'm gonna have to give up to drive at those prices, but it's all relative, if you're used to paying a buck a gallon for gas or milk and the price doubles, it's gonna hurt regardless of other issues. Back to the Pantero issues.

Dave and I spent an interesting day trying to figure out how to get a Pantero and a Fiero onto my trailer the other day, the additional length of the Pantero body makes it impossible to fit the two cars on my trailer. Oh well, I guess I'm going to have to get a longer trailer. I can and have transported two Fieros on my gooseneck, but that isn't going to happen with the Pantero re-bodied car. The additional length added to the nose and tail simply won't allow two cars on the trailer without modifying the trailer.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-17-2005).]

Dave,
I'm thinking it's time to release some more pics.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

Well, while waiting on the backordered epoxy surface coat, the wheelwell flares and airdam have recieved two more coats of Duratec, and are being wet sanded and polished.

We are taking the yellow Pantera to Ed Park's Swapmeet and hope to see many of you all there. Being as Ed's is sort of a 4.9 haven, I thought I'd show you some of the particulars of the Allante/4.9 hybrid. The '88 choptop I'm building will have this motor and the flares & airdam, and hopefully be shown in some state of completion at the CFOG-i meet at Osage Beach this summer.

First, from the 4.9, the valve covers, rocker bridges, pushrods, and intake manifold are removed...in that order.

It's important to keep the pushrods & manifold bolts organized:

From the Allante, the upper intake manifold is removed:

Then the valve covers and fuel rail can be removed:

Now the rocker bridges can be carefully removed:

Once they are off, the pushrods are taken out and the lower intake manifold can be removed:

The above picture is of the underside of the lower intake manifold. You can see how cleanly the airflow is. But the critical thing here for the Allante hybrid swap is the shape of the water coolant pasages in the lower manifold and the heads. Two different shapes were made, and they must match.

Here is a (blurry) closeup of the coolant passage in the head:

If everything matches, mating surfaces are cleaned up and the parts are reassembled.

See you at the Swapmeet.

David Breeze

There was a 74 Pantera in the parking lot, I was making a fuss about it and everyone was like what is the big deal. I was at lunch so I went out and sit on a bench and sure enough the guy that owned it came out. I told him I was hoping he would come out before my lunch was over so I could tell him what a sharp car he had.
Looked just like this one http://www.panteracars.com/lv01Dscn0953.jpg
Oh yea bump

I'm not a Ford man, but this was/is one cool car. BTW, the fender flares molds are almost completed and quite frankly I'm hoping this is about to come together.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

Any updates on the air dam and wheel flares for the Pantero David?

Almost done my 355 kit and will be looking for another one to start up this winter...

Have fun
Don

quote Originally posted by 355Fiero: Any updates on the air dam and wheel flares for the Pantero David? Almost done my 355 kit and will be looking for another one to start up this winter... Have fun Don

Don,
Dave is off in Texas on another exciting adventure so I'll try to answer your question. Actually, the front air dam and the rear fender flare molds are done waiting to be polished and put into production, the rear fender flares still need a couple more layers of glass and a structural base/legs and they will be ready to join the other molds. We hope to be able to bring an entire kit with the plug (Pantero) to Osage beach for display purposes. Hope those that see it will like it.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

Thanksfor the update Ron;

I have been talking to David on and off for a while now about his Pantera kit and I have been waiting to see how the flares turn out. I was wondering how it would look with a 2" chop out of the roof like Archie does? I remember him saying he had a lowered top Fiero he was going to put a Pantero on. I would also look into putting a longitudinal V6 or V8 as well and make the body fit up to it on the Pantero as that would finish it off beautifully. Longer wheel base closer to the original and a good solid Audi trans would be the topper.

I think the only thing I see with the Fieros is that the windows and roof line are just a bit high. All the rest of the car is great for looks overall in my humble opinion. A 2" drop would be ideal I think for a roof line on kits as well as the Fiero itself. I like what a lot of the people on this forum have done with their cars as well. The chop tops Archie puts out are really impressivel. Too bad he is so far away from where I live. A drop in is not an easy thing to do.

I almost want to get another Fiero and play with it as well while I am finishing up my 355 kit.

Thanks again for the update and and I'll keep emailing David and get updates as well.

Cheers
Don

quote Originally posted by 355Fiero: I would also look into putting a longitudinal V6 or V8 as well and make the body fit up to it on the Pantero as that would finish it off beautifully. Longer wheel base closer to the original and a good solid Audi trans would be the topper. I think the only thing I see with the Fieros is that the windows and roof line are just a bit high. Cheers Don

I am considering one of the kits, and if I get it, it will be going on a longitudinal V-8.

One thing I know about the roofline has to do with the man who created the first molds. He was to tall to sit comfortably in the Pantera, so he molded a Pantera, then modified it for the increased headroom in a Fiero.
I have never sat in a Pantera, but if a Fiero has more headroom................

I guess I am going to have to stop hanging out at Daves house so he can get the work done quicker!
That aside, I can say after looking at other kit cars and comparing them to this one, I can tell you the work Dave is putting into this going to pay off greatly for those who install the kit. The workmanship is top quality and the finish on the parts is amazing.

I have looked at various kits including a Lambo in the last couple months and my reaction to them all was "There is no way I could ever see myself completing this kit" from the quailty of (or lack of) the fiberglass work to the additional fabrication needed.

Daves kit is a quick assemble and you will not get that stuck in a rut feeling you get with long projects.
I think a couple competent people could assemble the body in two weekends. Maybe even one if they paid the extra 400.00 to have the extras done by Dave

Gene

That would be great as I have had a 355 replica I have been building for over 4 years now. There is A LOT of custom fabrication done on the car though.

I have also had to cut and adjust every panel on my current kit to get everything to line up properly. It looks really good now but it was a lot or work getting there. I would really like to see an easy build for a change as I haven't seen one yet.

I would probably modify enough on it to make it a hard build anyway. Not that bright I guess.....

Thanks for the info.
Don

quote I would probably modify enough on it to make it a hard build anyway. Not that bright I guess.....

I've followed enuf of your build to know you're pretty sharp. You just like to do things the "hard" way and it's going to pay off with a fantastic build.

later,
Bob

PS I need more Pantera pics....

PPS Is there anywhere in this post that mentions price? Just curious and too lazy to go back and read.

quote Originally posted by RCR: PS I need more Pantera pics.... PPS Is there anywhere in this post that mentions price? Just curious and too lazy to go back and read.

Pics will follow as progress allows, building the molds for the fender flares was a major undertaking for us. I'm sure when Dave gets back from his Texas Adventure, we'll get back on the project and might even post some pics.

Price??
Yes, I believe Dave does mention price on page one, two or it might be three.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Ooops forgot about the money issue.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 07-06-2005).]

Blackrams, we were actually in Huntsville, Ala., taking our daughter to Space Camp. Texas trip is later this month, when #1 son graduates from training at Fort Sam Houston. We stopped in at Ed's place, but it was the weekend and nobody was home. We'll try again tomorrow.

Scrabblegod, thanks for the kind words. Like you, it seems I've seen everything imaginable put out there as a "kit". My personal goal here is to produce a quality product that the builder can easily complete. I think we're there.

355Fiero, I echo RCR's comments reguarding your abilities, that's one fine build you've been working on. Seems like some people just like to build, eh? And I agree with your evaluation of the roofline. The choptop Pantera I'm building as a company showcar has the conventional 3 1/2" Fiero chop done on it. Blackrams & I have played around putting body clips onto the chopped chassis, and it is truely a remarkable look. Can't wait till I can show it to you guys. Serious work begins on this car after Osage Beach. BTW, I'll support your strech effort as much as I can, maybe something like sending a second junk skin along with the kit, so you can project around with the best way to accomplish the stretch, before modifying your good clip. And btw, a chop is actually very straightforward to do.

RCR, about mid way thru this page the prices are mentioned. I'll stand by thes at least untill Carlisle '06. For the Osage Beach show we are preparing a front & rear clip with the new wheel flares and air dam. I'll post a few pics within a couple of weeks as things progress. We plan to show the yellow prototype car and a few body clips or parts at this show.

The wheel flare and air dam molds project has gone well. We made some nice thick master molds using epoxy based materials. Everything came out incredably thick, stout, and a super shiney mold surface. The molds get polished this weekend, and then the first new parts will be laid up. I went to great lengths to make thes plugs fit the body precisely, and the details transferred thru to the creation of the molds. This translates into a part that the builder is able to easily fit and attach.

And I can't resist the following: if you want to do something or create something, go do it. Don't think for one minute that it can't be done. Here is my daughter, survivor of two very major heart surgeries and a special needs child, all of her life. She's flying the Bellanca down to Huntsville. All I did was make it take off, and then make it land.

David Breeze

Tell her she looks a whole lot better flying it than I do with my big butt wedged in there.

Gene

[This message has been edited by scrabblegod (edited 07-07-2005).]