I was helping a member of the Grand Prix board im on by making him a Down Pipe... after my exhaust its a friggin cake walk...
Well after talking about the DP we also started chatting about PEMs (ported exhaust manifolds) so we decided to give it a whirl. Heck i figured that the 3800 Series II manifolds are like all the same so it could help me out in the future too. Well today he passed on to me a BARLEY used set of manifolds... You can see here where the exhaust blockages and such are on the front manifold...
So i just removed a little, i didnt want to get too crazy without a gasket to "gasket match" to. You can tell though that i removed that which was blackend from being in the exhaust path.
We arent sure yet how much this will do, but the front manifold seems pretty restrictive and as for the back, the O2 bung could be contoured a bit less violent looking to flow as with the way some of the pipes stick up into the manifold to far... Any opinions on this??
If you take out too much material, the manifold will crack. The misconception is to gasket mate it. Look close at your port on the head. No need to gasket match it even know you may see carbon build up past the port on the primary. That is due to the factory gasket sealing. The primary gain is opening the id where the dia gets smaller about .5" into the primaries. The real work is NOT removing too much for two reasons. One - if you just hog it out you will loose gas velocity and speed... not good. Two the bend radius need to be smooth... think a long 90 degree turn vs, a sharp one. The real work on the front one is you have to keep the angle in the port to help the gasses spin down the primary. The angle I am speaking of is if you look at one of the ports you will see the left side is narrower then the right. Additionally the only way to do this correct is to WELD the bottom of the primary's. But welding cast iron is ... well a bitc@. You have to know all the tricks. The reason for the weld is to prevent grinding through the bottom of the cast and prevent cracking from heat. Open up the id near the outlet to "gasket match" will not yield much if any gains. There are many (too many) minor details that really make these front manifolds perform well... very well. Again without welding the cast... gains are significantly less... But lets be honest these manifolds when done correct add about 9-11 hp at the wheels so if they are not done this way you may be only losing 4-6 hp and perhaps 1 degree of knock. Oh! use a shop vac as you port... the chips go all over the place...and a mask, grinding will cause the rust powder to be released...cancer is not worth any amount of hp.
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09:16 AM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
Jncomutt - thanks for the porting tips... i will keep everything in mind... Joe said he really doesnt car if he only gets like 5hp and tq out of it... he is trying to sap every bit he can from his car. Worth a shot i guess. For my car ill just wait and get headers
Ohio86SE - The tracking is ALMOST perfect... just have to move the tenioner out a little bit. I got my alternator perfect by measuring from block face to the pulley and repeated the same positon for the alternator. I hope everything clears for the exhaust... it will be LOW but i think it may be REAL close to trunk. 4" mufflers. As for wiring, havent started it yet.
Revin - Come up here and "visit" it could get done damn quick then i bet Not sure when i get on road... soon i hope, not much left to do. Still waiting on flywheel...
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07:38 PM
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4540 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
if you look close at the top of the sc housing youll see he has atleast a couple of open vac ports......probably accounts for the thrashing idle. Id leave it that way...sounds cool ...just kidding
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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"
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09:06 AM
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
Well i ran into a problem... When working on the thermostat housing my V6 one does not have the same bolt pattern as my 3800SC... I though that is how people did it? Or is it the L4 one that fits? I would just use the stock one and one of the in line cap parts from summit BUT i would have no way to route coolant from my heater core then...
How did you all go about getting the fittings in the water pump section for the heater core?? Just copper tubing? or is it a copper fitting or something?? HELP... lol
Well i ran into a problem... When working on the thermostat housing my V6 one does not have the same bolt pattern as my 3800SC... I though that is how people did it? Or is it the L4 one that fits? I would just use the stock one and one of the in line cap parts from summit BUT i would have no way to route coolant from my heater core then...
The V-6 thermostat will work, you have to oval out the holes slightly to get them to line up.. I used this method on my swap but I also cut down the thermostat housing and changed the direction of it a little. Use the stock gasket and some RTV for a good seal.
How did you all go about getting the fittings in the water pump section for the heater core?? Just copper tubing? or is it a copper fitting or something?? HELP... lol
For both of the swaps we are working on, we used the 3800 thermostat cover, with a CSI billet inline filler. We also kept the stock heater core fitting locations...
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 09-18-2005).]
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06:05 PM
Sep 19th, 2005
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
Mutt... did you make the bracket that is holding that tube in there? I like it... but i have my tensioner where that hole is
I brought a 1" pipe tap and a 3/4 pipe tap home from work... i am going to see if either will work ok... then the GF is picking up some last minute needs that i have...
A 3/4 inch NPT pipe tap is perfect for the hole in the waterpump. For the intake, you need to drill it to 59/64 if I remember correctly as no tap will work perfectly in there as it is...
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08:01 PM
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
the hole worked ok in the water pump... threads arent very deep though... so when i assemble i will be adding JB weld to seal and make permanent. As for the intake i am just gonna get a freeze plug as i am going with the custom thermostat housing.
Thanks for the help guys!!!
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08:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
Sep 21st, 2005
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4540 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
if you look close at the top of the sc housing youll see he has atleast a couple of open vac ports......probably accounts for the thrashing idle. Id leave it that way...sounds cool ...just kidding
And if you look really close you will see those vaccum ports are plugged off and sealed with electrical tape. There are no vaccum leaks . . .
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02:27 PM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
i see now....the first time i looked at the videos i was green with envy and my eyes were watering because im no where close to getting my own 1 gallon (3.8l) sc swap complete..
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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"
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04:53 PM
Sep 22nd, 2005
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
Just got my flywheel in finally... WOO HOO!! Also got some stuff i ordered from McMaster Carr too... 4" intake tubing and the fittings for my heater core.
In the mean time i made my thermostat housing also... will get some pics soon, camera is out of batteries!!
Shouldnt be too long now. Have to order a clutch too. Maybe Next weekend it will RUN!! Been trying to talk the woman into letting me get an INTENSE intercooler... i think i got her into letting me get one!!
OH and Christmas bonus is gonna put an MP112 in place of the M90 too... *EVIL GRIN*
Anyone know if there are any Fieros out there with other then stock blowers on them?? I know of some turbo ones, but i am wondering about chargers.
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07:52 PM
tomanyfieros Member
Posts: 2702 From: Albany, Ohio Registered: Nov 2000
Go with the ZZP IC, can get them alot cheaper that the Intense one and you know it want damage your motor in the long run like so many of there other parts. Yes there are other Fieros out there with other than the stock M90 blowers on them. There is a guy here in Dallas that has a M112 on his built 3800 setup and I am sure there are a few others. If you wanna be ther first in something, them go Whipple and send about 3 grand.
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10:26 PM
Sep 23rd, 2005
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4540 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
OH and Christmas bonus is gonna put an MP112 in place of the M90 too... *EVIL GRIN*
Anyone know if there are any Fieros out there with other then stock blowers on them?? I know of some turbo ones, but i am wondering about chargers.
Other than stock.. Well that can be alot of different combinations.
I have had....
M90 Gen 3 Stage 4 with LS1 TB and 85MM MAF M90 Gen 5 with ETC TB 85MM MAF ( The only Fiero with full Series III L32 installed and TAP shift to date ) M90 Gen 3 converted to M112
Next is a M90 Gen 5 Stage 4 ported with N* TB and 85MM MAF
RANDOMTASK... So you didnt have yours balanced?!? The weight on my 3800 Flywheel looks CAST in... i didnt see any machining marks on it to make it look as though it was any more then just cast that way!?!?
RANDOMTASK... So you didnt have yours balanced?!? The weight on my 3800 Flywheel looks CAST in... i didnt see any machining marks on it to make it look as though it was any more then just cast that way!?!?
I dont belive the S2 flywheel needs to be balanced afer it is cut down. Look thru the Archives and there is a Thread in there talking about . I read it here a while back but cant say 110% thats what it said.
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08:07 AM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
You should have the flywheel rebalanced after it is cut down. The N/A motor isn't balanced exactly as the supercharged flexplate apparently. This is what I was told by Darth. He reccommends to bring the flexplate along with the cut down flywheel to have the flywheel balancing matched up to the flexplate.
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10:57 AM
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
"Things i know i removed and dont need are, MAP sensors, EGR sylonoid, Boost Control Sylonoid, EVAP Canister... Not sure what else *thinking*"
Im no authority on the subject by any means but I dont think you can eliminate the MAP sensors.
If you go with an OBD I setup you can get rid of the MAP sensors... the OBD I has only 1 imput for air sensing and thats the MAS
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:
You should have the flywheel rebalanced after it is cut down. The N/A motor isn't balanced exactly as the supercharged flexplate apparently. This is what I was told by Darth. He reccommends to bring the flexplate along with the cut down flywheel to have the flywheel balancing matched up to the flexplate.
No offence to MstangsBware but this is allso what i have heard too... However the places i have called said they cant balance like that... Its crazy too cause the one place builds racing engines for NASCAR TRUCK and they said they cant do it without the crank and they have to add weights to simulate pistons and rods!??! That sounds like the PROPER way to do it but im not ripping the engine apart for that... thats obsurd!
Where is Mcaanda... he was talking about this to me earlier... maybe he can shed some light?!?!
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11:12 AM
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
No offence to MstangsBware but this is allso what i have heard too... However the places i have called said they cant balance like that... Its crazy too cause the one place builds racing engines for NASCAR TRUCK and they said they cant do it without the crank and they have to add weights to simulate pistons and rods!??! That sounds like the PROPER way to do it but im not ripping the engine apart for that... thats obsurd!
Ok guys, I get about 5 calls a month on this flywheel subject.
Its called imbalance on the flywheel. There are many discussions on it on the web, but not directly related to the 3800sc or 3800na.
I dont have test data from a machine shop to use as facts. Here is the facts that I know them however.
WCF was the first I know of to even sell manual 3800SC flywheels. Several years ago.... I purchased one, and I saw a casted part number. Ran the part number and it was a F-Body V6 3800NA 96 and above. I decided to purchase a flywheel from GM Parts direct. It was very thick compared to the one from WCF. I took it to machine shop and they would not cut the new flywheel to the same measurement. Too much material needed to come off. No one had a lathe big enough to cut the flywheel there.
I happen to go to WCF to visit many years ago. I purchased 2 more flywheels while there. However, only one was cut, so they proceeded to cut the other one. Chris put it in a large lathe and starting the cutting process. Took about 45 minutes as I recall.
So what are we doing when cutting this flywheel? Taking material off the face of the clutch disk surface. The imbalance is molded in the back of the flywheel. The imbalance is rotational weighed to the outer axis. Take off the flat surface clutch disk face xxx thousands, then the rotational imbalance stays the same. A problem would occur however if the flywheel was drilled for balancing by the factory on the face, but it is not. Take off the same amount from the face to the back section from top to middle, then you still have same amount of imbalance.
What is this imbalance amount is the question. We can measure that real easy from a automatic flexplate. The imbalance is spot welded on there. I have removed several. I have no clue what the weight of it is, but lets say it is 50 oz... Now the Fbody imbalance is cast molded into the flywheel. Cant just remove that and expect to get weight only for the imbalance. Cant compare these this way.
Now, I have been to a machine shop that says they can measure the imbalance in a flywheel. I have never took a Fbody flywheel there to have this done. I have thought about it several times, but never made it there.
So, back to facts of PROVEN installs....
WCF for several years now has sold Fbody flywheels to ppl installing 3800SC engines to Fieros with transverse transmissions, and I cant say I have heard of any engines tearing themselves apart on balancing issues.
FastFieros has installed 3-4 WCF flywheels, 1 local cut flywheel, and 1 flywheel cut by another forum person, with ZERO problems relating to the Fbody flywheel cut down on the surface face.
I have noted small vibrations in 3800SC manuals that are a little more pronounced in some than others, but we are talking about a hybrid install with OEM components highly modified with no real exact science here. So there are going to be some minor vibrations. The pressure plate can be slightly out of balance from McLeod from one day to the next. Do we worry about Spec and CenterForce, and McLeod getting their pressure plates and disks EXACTLY round and balanced? No, we buy the stuff and install it with confidence it works.
The most important part of this flywheel thing is getting the face distance correct. I measure the ones I buy from anyone to make sure it is the same as a Fiero OEM flywheel. .840 is thrown about and it is measured from the mounting face of crankshaft to the surface face of the disk area. Me, I just measure every Fiero flywheel I remove and make sure I am damn close to that.
HTH........
Loyde
PS... I have a engine lathe large enough to cut flywheels now...
[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 09-25-2005).]
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12:19 PM
The Fieromaster Member
Posts: 4124 From: Painesville, Ohio USA Registered: Jun 2001
Thank you Loyde... i guess ill just give it a shot by cutting the face surface down and giving that a shot.
As for the PCM... Well i am missing for some reason some of the integral PINS that need to be there... not to mention i dont know which is A B or C on the 94 PCM... and i cant just Figure it out because if i compare pins on each of the connectors none have some of the pins needed to be either A B or C... Some are missing pins for injectors others stuff for IAC... :WTF:
j/k
